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Verizon CEO's comments interpreted to mean no iPhone until 2011 - Page 2

post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldandintheway View Post

It's time for the FCC to step up to the plate and stop these exclusive agreements between phones and carriers. I live in an area that is only serviceable by Verizon. I should be able to use any phone I choose. Maybe we need fair rates for service and buy our own phones.

Did you miss the part about Cdma being different from 3g? Or that Cdma is being obsoleted? I do understand how you feel, and have a problem with the "exclusive" At&t deal. However, why should the government force a person or entity to make an additional product that they do not want to?
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post #42 of 56
CDMA is dead as far as the great majority of networks are concerned. Add to that, in many other places CDMA networks have been pulled down and replaced with a functioning GSM network that works better in a fairly short period of time. Verizon's market analysts need to start telling them to consider taking that capital charge and fix it.

If I never have to hear of Verizon and the iPhone in the same sentence again until they update their network I'll be very happy.
post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think the US CDMA market is by a wide margin the only real consideration when looking into a CDMA iPhone. Between Sprint and Verizon there are more than enough subs that would love to get the iPhone, but if Apple can't even add the simple, cheap radio band for T-Mobile USA I doubt we can expect a Verizon model.

and then there's The Issue of what would the Verizon LTE model of the iPhone fall back on in areas where LTE coverage is lacking/not available (shades of "There's a map for that"!). with AT&T its GSM which is already baked into the cake, but with Verizon to get coverage in a non-LTE enabled area it would need to fall back on the extant CDMA system.

so even when Verizon upgrades to LTE, unless the iPhone also supports the extant Verizon deployed CDMA infrastructure/system, it's pretty much a no-go imho (well, unless you want "a map for that" only coverage) .
post #44 of 56
I wonder if the New iPhone this Summer will have LTE capability? If yes, would that mean that people with that phone would be able to switch to VZ when VZ has LTE? Will there be different "flavors" of LTE?! CDMA has 2 flavors, between VZ and Sprint! GSM = 2 Flavors between ATT and T-Mobile...

LTE vs WiMax = The New Divide, ala GSM vs. CDMA?!

It'll be unlikely for the New iPhone this Summer to have LTE + CDMA, cause then why not open it to VZ this Summer!

I guess none of us will know till after WDC when New iPhone is announced this Summer! All these rumors and analysis is a waste of time, since none of us are being consulted! Surely Apple knows that there is a demand, and that it's a lot bigger than all of us on this AI Forum! The overall masses don't even know about LTE, probably...

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Go  Apple!!!

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post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post

I wonder if the New iPhone this Summer will have LTE capability? If yes, would that mean that people with that phone would be able to switch to VZ when VZ has LTE?

If history is any guide, the chipsets for new radio standards like LTE are usually horrible and power hungry until several revisions later. As with most Apple designs, I would assume that there is not the space or power to put rev.1 of any new chipset in an iPhone with acceptable battery life etc.

The LTE/CDMA combo will come eventually but they need to get the LTE/3g combination right first for the other 5Bn users and I doubt there is an acceptable solution for that yet either. A CDMA only phone would be totally a one-off for Verizon and would have to stand on its merits (e.g. sales of 3-8M vs the costs of development, etc. and the cannibalization of AT&T GSM version sales). I could see the economic model being pretty weak overall.

Add to that, that AT&T is not going to do much with 4g for a while since it has a lot of headroom in the current 3g system which are probably cheaper upgrades (i.e. upgrades to 14.4Mbps, 22, 28.8 etc.) and Apple's urgency is even less for all this LTE stuff. I don't see the rest of the world's carriers rushing into 4g since they are still trying to properly monetize the 3g investment they paid too much for a decade ago.
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Be careful with that comparison. VZ only owns 55% of Verizon Wireless. Vodafone owns the other 45%. AT&T owns all of AT&T Mobility. (They both also own landlines and broadband.)

Good points. It should also noted that both Verizon Comm and Vodafone are in discussion with what to do with VZW. Either, one buys the other out or they sell it. This was recently reported in the UK financial press.

Now, who do we all know with a huge chunk of change in the bank; who stated they need to be bold using that cash and also always wants to control every aspect of their business from hardware, through software through retail through??
post #47 of 56
Technical reasons aside, it really does come down to stopping Android.

Obviously Apple would rather not have a CMDA-flavored iPhone in the market with the GSM iPhone. Perhaps if they could get Qualcomm's chip it might be possible to offer a dual-mode iPhone.

I think AT&T is probably saturated in terms of who's willing to get an iPhone, so they won't get many new users who churn from Verizon or other carriers. There will be a little bit, but most new business will be folks who are coming off their two-year contracts and turning in their original or 3G iPhones.

Verizon needs the iPhone because it's the one thing they can't brag about. They might crow about how fantastic their network is, but AT&T's still got the iPhone. It would also bring in a lot of new subscribers.

In the end, if Apple is intent of promoting the iPhone OS as the dominant operating system for mobile devices (including tablets), it cannot allow Android to get a foothold in the marketplace. Allowing Android to dominate the country's second-largest carrier in Verizon is unacceptable for Apple.

I think Verizon is ready to play ball with Apple and let go of their V Cast store or what not, just to get the iPhone. The negotiations are probably stuck over the subsidies and some other details.

I've been off Verizon contract since fall 2008 and have been waiting and waiting for them to get the iPhone. If nothing's announced about that by WWDC this summer, I'm jumping ship and getting an iPhone on AT&T, as much as it pains me to say it.
post #48 of 56
Apple doesn't need Verizon. Apple doesn't care about revenue. Apple just cares if their products are going to "WORK!" Therefore, Verizon has a very slow 3G browser, they're old fashioned CDMA, they don't have the ability of "talk & surf the web" and yes they do have coverage, and so does at&t. No carrier is perfect. Verizon drops calls too! Apple knows what they're doing, and they know what the future will lead them too. If Apple launches the iPhone on Verizon, the network will be too packed, the 3G will become even more slower! It's the best if Apple just waits for LTE & as of now, they're better off going to the Sprint network, if they "were" to make a CDMA iPhone. F***, Sprint is even better!
post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexhasfun28 View Post

Apple doesn't need Verizon. Apple doesn't care about revenue. Apple just cares if their products are going to "WORK!" Therefore, Verizon has a very slow 3G browser, they're old fashioned CDMA, they don't have the ability of "talk & surf the web" and yes they do have coverage, and so does at&t. No carrier is perfect. Verizon drops calls too! Apple knows what they're doing, and they know what the future will lead them too. If Apple launches the iPhone on Verizon, the network will be too packed, the 3G will become even more slower! It's the best if Apple just waits for LTE & as of now, they're better off going to the Sprint network, if they "were" to make a CDMA iPhone. F***, Sprint is even better!

So why did Apple try to get on the Verizon network before going to AT&T?
post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

If history is any guide, the chipsets for new radio standards like LTE are usually horrible and power hungry until several revisions later. As with most Apple designs, I would assume that there is not the space or power to put rev.1 of any new chipset in an iPhone with acceptable battery life etc.

The LTE/CDMA combo will come eventually but they need to get the LTE/3g combination right first for the other 5Bn users and I doubt there is an acceptable solution for that yet either. A CDMA only phone would be totally a one-off for Verizon and would have to stand on its merits (e.g. sales of 3-8M vs the costs of development, etc. and the cannibalization of AT&T GSM version sales). I could see the economic model being pretty weak overall.

Add to that, that AT&T is not going to do much with 4g for a while since it has a lot of headroom in the current 3g system which are probably cheaper upgrades (i.e. upgrades to 14.4Mbps, 22, 28.8 etc.) and Apple's urgency is even less for all this LTE stuff. I don't see the rest of the world's carriers rushing into 4g since they are still trying to properly monetize the 3g investment they paid too much for a decade ago.

Thanks for replying, Capnbob! My Q in Post #44 still seems unanswered! Here is a shorter version of that Q --

If I buy the New iPhone (ATT) that has LTE in it, will I be able to use it on Verizon's LTE, if I was to switch to VZ when their LTE is available?

Obviously, that same New iPhone (ATT) won't have CDMA support in it, so then, if I was to switch to Verizon with it, I wouldn't have the CDMA "parachute"/backup in the areas where LTE is not available...

One of the Qs for people buying iPhones (and most don't know about all this stuff that we are dissecting here) is:

How long can I get out of it?

Between the iPhone OS Upgrades cutting the older iPhones off, at least partially, and the LTE/GSM/CDMA divides, it seems like 2 years would be the average on the life of iPhone. After that it becomes either a hand down to kids, or more likely a backup, since there is no Insurance(right?) for it, like there used to be with Palm Treo's on VZ... And I don't know about the insurance on Android Phones on various carriers...

Another Q is (still?) - how frequently can one buy an Upgrade to their iPhone, while staying with the same carrier, and not be penalized by that carrier, due to the Subsidies Math?

Meanwhile, all those CEOs and their Teams have plenty to discuss there..., as they make that Sausage!...

Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made!
-- Otto von Bismarck
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck>

I think that, even if VZ iPhone became available this Summer 2010, it would run slower than ATT's 3G... Then it's Pick Your Poison:

Geography/Tower Traffic/Load/Demand/Availability - Drop Calls and VZ, Being New to iPhone as far as Tech Support, compared to ATT having 3 years of iPhone experience...

vs. VZ being the Prince Charming with The Great Network! It's all a close toss up...

Stop Android, get in bed with VZ -- is obviously a factor too!

Happy Sausages, Speculating, Stock Manipulating, Forums!

Go  Apple!!!

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Go  Apple!!!

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post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadash View Post

So why did Apple try to get on the Verizon network before going to AT&T?

That's not true. Apple first went to Cingular, when Cingular wouldn't hurry up with their agreement they chose Verizon as their second choice, and that's when Verizon turned down Apple. After the Verizon situation, Apple went back to Cingular and at the time Cingular already felt confident in Apple and approved their agreement. Then they soon called themselves AT&T, etc. etc. Since then, their relationship with at&t is good. They haven't complained with them. You also got to remember, Apple going to Verizon may just be rumors. May be what I just told you may be a rumor also, but it makes more sense because Apple released their first iTunes phone back in 2005 with Motorola, on the, wait for it, Cingular network! And at the time Cingular was the largest carrier in the U.S. So what makes us think that just because Verizon wasn't the largest carrier, means that Apple would of gone with them. It's nonsense. Now Verizon is the largest carrier, after 2007. But Apple is a global company. They release the products around the world. Just because people want a Verizon iPhone, doesn't mean Apple is just going to make one for them. If there were a larger CDMA population, then maybe. But as of right now, it seems like a no go until LTE is rolled out. They're just better off with Sprint, like I said.
post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post

If I buy the New iPhone (ATT) that has LTE in it, will I be able to use it on Verizon's LTE, if I was to switch to VZ when their LTE is available?

Obviously, that same New iPhone (ATT) won't have CDMA support in it, so then, if I was to switch to Verizon with it, I wouldn't have the CDMA "parachute"/backup in the areas where LTE is not available...

Correct. If the LTE 4G iPhone doesn't also have CDMA support built-in, what is going to happen when you leave the LTE coverage area with a hypothetical Verizon LTE iPhone? No old network to fall back on. How is THAT going to work? It's not as though AT&T is going to allow Verizon users to roam on their GSM/EDGE network. Any other competitors, maybe, but not AT&T and Verizon. So unless the 4G LTE iPhone supports both GSM and CDMA natively, the Verizon coverage map is going to have a lot of white space on it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post

Another Q is (still?) - how frequently can one buy an Upgrade to their iPhone, while staying with the same carrier, and not be penalized by that carrier, due to the Subsidies Math?

You are paying for the subsidy in your (usually) 24 month contract. So you are basically locked in for two years or have to pay an ETF (early termination fee) to get out of the deal. On the 25th month, you are paying that same monthly rate, but are no longer benefiting from a subsidy. So you should be looking for a new hardware deal at the end of your 24 month term.

Clouding the issue just a bit, AT&T will allow some users with higher average per-month billing to upgrade iPhone hardware for a reduced rate after one year. (Mostly this is always the June-July time frame since that is when the new iPhone always comes out.) So IIRC those that average above $100/month in billing can get a partial subsidy on a new iPhone every June or July.

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MD481LL/A MD388LL/A ME344LL/A

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post #53 of 56
Up until recently I would have discounted Verzion iPhone rumors, but recent events suggest that Jobs is extremely, not to say insanely, focused on rebuffing, not to say stabbing to death, Android, not to say Google.

Clearly, iPhone on Verizon would be a great way to cut into Droid et al sales and sticking it to Google, so I can't help but wonder if Jobs is now willing to do whatever he wouldn't do previously to get a deal done.
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post #54 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Correct. If the LTE 4G iPhone doesn't also have CDMA support built-in, what is going to happen when you leave the LTE coverage area with a hypothetical Verizon LTE iPhone? No old network to fall back on. How is THAT going to work? It's not as though AT&T is going to allow Verizon users to roam on their GSM/EDGE network. Any other competitors, maybe, but not AT&T and Verizon. So unless the 4G LTE iPhone supports both GSM and CDMA natively, the Verizon coverage map is going to have a lot of white space on it...


You are paying for the subsidy in your (usually) 24 month contract. So you are basically locked in for two years or have to pay an ETF (early termination fee) to get out of the deal. On the 25th month, you are paying that same monthly rate, but are no longer benefiting from a subsidy. So you should be looking for a new hardware deal at the end of your 24 month term.

Clouding the issue just a bit, AT&T will allow some users with higher average per-month billing to upgrade iPhone hardware for a reduced rate after one year. (Mostly this is always the June-July time frame since that is when the new iPhone always comes out.) So IIRC those that average above $100/month in billing can get a partial subsidy on a new iPhone every June or July.

Thank you, John.B. I wish ATT made it easier to upgrade to a New iPhone every time the Upgrade is available, which is usually once a year in July/August. That would have given them another chance to prolong the contract... But, l don't know their & Apple's $$ math...

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post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

I could see Apple waiting for the LTE deployment to get a foothold so they could do an LTE/CDMA phone. In that case, waiting until 2011 would probably make sense.

I don't think Apple will do this. With Apples current form on their phones, they won't have the space for 2 chips. Also, since Verizon hasn't deployed any 4G LTE hardware yet, they may wait to see how phones work moving from chip to chip and how that will affect battery life. If you have to have 2 chips searching for towers, that's bound to suck at battery life on a smartphone. Battery life was one reason that Apple didn't go to multitasking yet, until they figured out how to make it work. It will be at least 5-6 years before Verizon get a fully usable 4G only network.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

As for the Verizon CEO's comments, it could also be to make the public believe that it's entirely up to Apple and that Verizon will accept whatever terms Apple wants, thus making us think it's Apple holding up the deal. But he didn't say what Verizon's terms were. They could privately be telling Apple that the iPhone must support Verizon's app store, for example, and then publicly saying the ball is in Apple's court.

I doubt that Apple will let that happen. Verizon need Apple much more than Apple need Verizon.
post #56 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post

Thank you, John.B. I wish ATT made it easier to upgrade to a New iPhone every time the Upgrade is available, which is usually once a year in July/August. That would have given them another chance to prolong the contract... But, l don't know their & Apple's $$ math...

Upgrades are not set in stone. They are based on the amount of subsidy you received on the phone, along with how much money you spend per month, along with payment history. Since the iPhone is highly subsidized, it's a minimum of 18 months. It's not good business to heavily subsidize a phone, then subsidize another phone before they even break even on the original.
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