Adobe evangelist lashes out at Apple over iPhone 4.0 - Page 6

Adobe is digging a hole, 6 feet.... For them self?

I hope you are right.

I guess what worry's me is the trend I see of late of Apple picking a fight with all the big players, MS, Adobe, and Google. The campaign against Adobe seems to be reminiscent of the MS campaign of shoot to maim.

I don't like flash ads on many sites, but there is a lot of content in streaming video that would not be available without it at this time. If all this content can be switched to html5 then that is great, and will happen if html5 is the better way to go. I don't think that Apple should be the one telling everyone that they have to go that way. I also find there is much inconsistency in flash video, some sites stream very poorly and some very smooth (on a Mac). I have also have had problems streaming non flash video off the Apple site. Why is that?

The web is what it is and Apple should build products for it, and not tell everyone to change to fit there new product.

I think JS problem with Adobe is much deeper than flash. I for one don't want to be used as a pawn in SJ's campaign for revenge.

If Apple goes the same direction that MS did I will be very disappointed as for many years Apple has been the best alternative to that.

I can't help feeling that part of this blame really falls on Adobe themselves.

For well over a year I've been plagued by slow flash on my mac and lots of crashing on my Windows box as well as lots of unexplainable crashes only when we do flash through our VPN network at work, without work arounds, we're forced to choose 'other' solutions as well.

I think that was a comment even Steve made about Flash being the major cause of most Safari crashes.

You'd think that Adobe would be putting quality into their work, even before all the issues. I mean, even browser builders are specifically altering the way they handle plugins so they don't crash the entire browser and am guessing it's almost solely because of Flash.


I don't know why Adobe doesn't come out with a Flash Like utility for HTML 5 and go with the flow.

I guess Microsoft hasn't stopped pushing Silverlight so guess HTML 5 will still have resistance.

Who'd of thunk a few years back that Apple would be having so much clout in the web world standards ... as they too were very proprietary in the past.

Apparently someone skimmed over the article. What you failed to comprehend is that this restriction is for development of 4.0+ apps going forward. So how can current flash-ported apps designed for 3.x release possibly violate 4.0? Please enlighten us. I seriously doubt Apple is going to go back through the entire app store and flush all apps that are not designed with the current SDK.

I'm aware of that. A side-by-side comparison of Elements and Pixelmater would be interesting.

As much as I hate all the FarmVille crap (and the quickest way to get "unfriended" is to send me updates about your lost cow)...

What other option is there? Is there some other smartphone on the market that I'm not aware of that supports Flash? Is there even a production-ready demo of any smartphone that gets decent performance and battery life running Flash? At least a proof of concept?

My thought as well. My impression is that Elements is oriented toward casual photo touch-up work, with a lot of automated features and filters to make it easy to do things like "intelligent" resizing, matting and color balance adjustments. Basically repackaging some specific Photoshop tech into idiot proof bundles and giving them fun names.

Whereas Pixelmator aspires to be a more general purpose imaging editor/creation tool.

Go to any retouching studio and ask them what they use. They will probably say lightroom or camera raw and PHOTOSHOP. Slow? I use it on my imac and it's lightening fast.

Aperture and pixelmator are only for those very basic users but even then most basic users use photoshop as learning material is widely available on the net for free. Who cares about GPU acceleration, it's about end product and right now there is nothing that comes close to giving results as good as photoshop.

I couldn't care less about Flash but if you are deluded enough to think Photoshop is going to be knocked of it's perch any time soon you are mistaken. The same can be said for Illustrator and In Design.

I don't know why you think Lightroom vs. Aperture is illustrative of anything. Could it be you have no idea what you're talking about?

While people certainly have preferences and Lightroom has the benefit of hooks to Photoshop, the idea that Aperture is "only for those very basic users" is pure unadulterated bullshit.

It's not just Flash we're talking about here. Anything using a cross compiler, compatibility bridge, or any type of external source code generation is now against their license. There's at least a half dozen major development tools this affects, including the popular Unity3D.

Will Apple go through and yank all the violators from the app store when they post their new version? I don't know, but I don't trust them to just look the other way.

I do not claim to be a technocrat. However, I followed to an extent the careers of both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. since the beginning of the portable computer. They are a study in contrast. Bill Gates is a more shrewed businessman, or knew people to understand the value of its software. To that extent, I admire Bill Gates, and for several years now, for his and his wife's humanitarian work, through their foundation. How, he devotes most of his time to the foundation, that was why he retired as CEO/Chairman(?) of Microsoft.

I mention this humnirarian side of Bill Gates because, by his own admission, when it comes to business, he was ruthless. I do not recall his exact words now, but when he was interviewed, he said it was not about the money. but about the kill, to prevail over the others, or something like that.

[If you follow the actions of Microsoft, this attitude pervades the company to this day. It seems to want to dominate everything, many times by quashing the efforts of others. One practice that I noticed in the past was to announce a product, even if they are not yet ready.]

If this is true, I would not be surprised if it was indeed Bill Gates who was behind the anti-competitive steps taken by MS, once Windows essentially had a monopoly. For example, giving away Internet Explorer for free to kill Netscape and thus rule not only the desktop PC but the budding internet, in the mid 1990s.

From a more personal experience, one of the universities I was connected with stopped supporting Apple; there was no IT person to deal with Apple even if many of the staff, especially in the science use Mac-based hardware, mostly. The rumor was that Microsoft offered them a deal. Not sure if this was indeed true, but this practice is common in the beverage industry -- exclusive Coke or Pepsi deals.

If Bill Gates is not a hypocrite, based from interviews, he does admire Steve Jobs.

Unlike Bill Gates, I have not read any report to indicate that Steve Jobs has ever dabbled in any humanitarian projects. Maybe in the future, when he has already achieved many of his goals, he was set to do. My feeling though is that it may not happen, the way it happened with Bill Gates.

Eversince, I came across the name of Steve Jobs, he has always been driven by his passion for technology. More than likely, this will be what would consume him until he dies. I have known many people like that devoted completely to one passion.

As we know now, and with the products to support it, Steve Jobs is a consumate perfectionist. Another thing that I admire about Steve Jobs is that he is not afraid to fail. As far as I am concerned, the courage to face failure is key to creating those that are truly evolutionary or game changers. In fact, some of his products that are considered commercial flops, are very much admired.

I do not consider Steve Jobs to be a technical genius (like those engineers working for Apple), but like true leaders, he surrounds himself with good people who are themselves the mavericks in their area of expertise. That he is not infallible in his judgement of people is evident with his recruitment of John Sculley. I read his interview when he first hired Sculley and why he did so. As it turned out, it led to the exile of Steve Jobs.

I read reviews though that speculated the ouster of Steve Jobs from Apple sobered him. His floundering company became the kernel of the technology as well as the seminal staff that became the foundation of his second coming to Apple.

It is true that Steve Jobs is possibly brash or even arrogant but those attributes may be part of his tendency to be the consumate perfectionist.

Note for example that it was not Apple (thus Job) that pick the fight with Microsoft, Adobe, Google or Nokia. If the report were trie. it was Microsoft that was caught stealing proprietary technology from Apple. I forgot which software now but supposedly MS did not even bother changing some of the Apple codes. The $100 million plus the agreement to continue the MS Office series were supposed to be the settlement for this. Also, if you followed the evolution of PCs, MS was DOS3, and the Windows GUI was definitely a copy from the innovative Macintosh GUI.

If you read the reports, the co-founders of Google, Larry Page and and Sergey Brin actually consider Steve Jobs as their mentor. It was the actions of Eric Smith, the Google CEO that led to the current ruffled feathers between Google and Apple. In a sense, the case of Google is reflective of the naivette in Steve Jobs and Apple. This might have clouded by the psychology: "If your enemy is my enemy, we must be allies."

If Apple sued HTC, the Google phone manufacturer, this is expected. The suit may or may not succeed, but Apple has to protect its patented technology. On the other hand, it was Nokia that first sued Apple. It was after that when Apple countersued. It was worth noting that Apple did not sue Palm, which blatantly integrated Apple iTunes in its Palm Pre.

In the case of Adobe, the latter company has neglected its Apple product users. As others noted here, Adobe may be getting its comeuppance; not too many Apple product users would cry even crocodile tears for Adobe.

In regard Apple dictating on others, this is not exactly accurate. Unlike Microsoft, Apple while a game changer does not have dominance in many of the technologies it entered. It cannot outright dictate the rules, but it definitely is trying to influence the rules through its participation in the standardization consortium.

Moreover, it should be noted that the strict rules that Apple wanted to apply are only for the Apple ecosystem -- sometimes derisively referred to as the "Walled Garden" because it is vertically integrated. Other companies -- Nokia, RIM, Microsoft, Nokia, Palm, and many others -- which do not believe in Apple's strategy have been attempting to create their own business strategy. In this sense, Apple cannot and has not imposed onn other companies to follow Apple's strategy of vertical integration.

It will be a few years before the dust will settle to crown the winner. Apple II for example augured the portable computer (PC) revolution, but MS-centric PCs not McIntosh, remains the current leader. ?Whether history repeats itself has yet to take its course.

One great difference this time around is that the Apple and Steve Jobs of today,are not the same as the entities of the 1980s. Apple has been not only the one that shaked every segment it has entered lately -- music (iPod), phone (iPhone) and now the mobile computer, represented by iPad -- but also became predominant in those sectors.

CGC

That's one of the more subtle ironies of this whole debate. Adobe says that Flash is so slow because they can't get access to the APIs. So a simple popup menu can suck up 120% CPU time.

Yet Adobe is able to product Photoshop which (while it loads like a drunken pig in quicksand) can quickly modify multi-MB or GB images - involving changes to millions or billions of pixels.

Has no one at Adobe ever considered that if Photoshop can do that that Flash's slowness isn't due to Apple withholding anything?



There are a number of people where who would complain that Apple's evil no matter what they do. If they put a $1,000 check in every iPad box, these whiners would complain that it's unfair because it's hard for a poor person to cash a check.



That's nonsense for a lot of reasons (not the least of which is that Apple accounts for 50% of Adobe revenues and that iPhone OS accounts for 64% of mobile internet access), but even if it's true, so what? Everyone knows that Flash is crap, so Apple is not supporting it. Why would anyone care WHY that is?


That's why no one develops for iPhone OS. It's too much trouble, right? Those 200,000 AppStore apps just created themselves.

I'm sorry, but if you can't learn to develop for the OS, you're not needed. There are enough fart apps already that more mindless clones of existing junk is a waste. Apple is saying "we're happy to have all the quality apps we can get, but if you're not interested in making a good app, don't bother". I support that 100%. I'd much rather have 100 great apps than 10,000 cookie cutter garbage apps.

This is untrue. I have personally created applications in Microsoft Silverlight that employed shader effects and animation. While they were certainly not running directly on the hardware, Microsoft obviously employed the right APIs to get it done, because it worked really well. And that's something that simply can't be accomplished any other way. Adobe wants direct hardware access for their plugin because that way they can port the (probably) C++ they're writing flash in directly, and only have to maintain one codebase for the plugin. If they have to tie into core animation or video frameworks, their codebase diverges significantly, which means a lot more work for them, as any new feature has to be written twice (in theory, anyways)

It's as though the Adobe CEO declared at some point "This is how we are going to treat Microsoft, and THIS is how we are going to treat Apple. And Apple will just have to take it." They dug their heels in and sniggered for five years. Now comes the reaction from Apple and they cry foul.

(Oh wait, that was pretty much what did happen. I remember the discussion long ago of how Adobe were going to apportion their coding resources based on units sold.)

LOL. Okay then. 99.99% of the market. CorelDraw? Paint Shop? Seriously?! Hahahahahahaha.

Can someone tell him about these: Objective-C, C, C++, and JavaScript.

..."THAT APPLE AND ITS TYRANNICAL LANGUAGE!"

Illustrator 10 - the last non-bloated version - still runs fine on snow leopard. it runs circles around any later version, despite having to run in rosetta.

Dead Dead Dead.

Bye bye, Adobe.

Correctamundo.

I sure hope so.

READ C A R E F U L L Y !!

You (and Adobe) cannot have access to the API's
a good reason? - you (and Adobe) may 'stuff' up
another reason? - not required (see above)[

Yes Photoshop is a 'killer' app, I've used it since version 3.0 and regularly use 8.0 and 10.0.1 (CS & CS3),
it works, it's that simple (most of the time) - FLASH - (for want of a better word) - SUCKS!

They have no right to do that. They are going to get it.

Why? Some of these games are highly rated.

Intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produce sub-standard apps and hinder the progress of the platform.

These guys are going to have to start doing things the Apple way. Apple will not accept anything that hinders the progress of the platform. No way, no how.

When I get to a site on my iPhone that cannot access Flash, I wonder what the hell the site developers were thinking; I don't condemn my device. Same as when things are IE only. What the hell are the site developers thinking?

Oh, well, IE is 80% market share, so screw the 20% that don't use it.

Considering there are reasonable alternatives that 100% of potential clientele could use, it doesn't make sense to employ something that could exclude anyone.

Not 5 years. It's been at least 13 years. Also, Adobe is trying to play a big boys game with the platforming of Flash. They should expect big boy battles.

Mr. Klok is the latest incarnation of deeply disturbed troll who keeps reregistering after being banned to play at being the ultimate fan boy, which, you know, sure shows us.

There's really something wrong with the poor man, so best leave him be.

As a web designer and front-end developer, I work with technologies such as HTML5, XHTML, JavaScript and Flash everyday. Several years ago, JavaScript was seen as 'bloated' and redundant, but thanks to JS libraries, it has resurfaced and for good reason. To say that Flash is dead is simply ignorant. With Adobe's adoption of SWFObject in Flash CS4, Flash can easily be embedded in websites using standards-compliant HTML. With the announcement of search indexing in swf files, there is still a chance that Flash can be a complementary technology for developers that choose to use it. I mean really, why can't we all just get along?

I don't know where Apple Insider get their information from, but to say that Adobe is "is among those working to split Canvas from the HTML5 specification" is just pure ignorance. Watch this video for canvas pasting in Dreamweaver CS5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP98Tfc4WWg

I have been a Mac OS user for about 20 years, but I refuse to be an iPhone OS user until options for development become reasonable.

So I went over to this site, thinking, 'I know Quadra 610, he is true Apple fanboy , so be careful" where as me I love Apple, but I stick them with a fork, if there do me wrong.

But I have to give it to you Quadra 610, after reviewing the software, I bought a version for $59, yes only $59 and spit on Adobe photoshop (I will keep my present version, but no more upgrades).
I am keen amateur photographer and Photoshop is expensive, but there was nothing else to do real touch ups, since Aperture is great especially 3.0 version, but does not have all the features.
I read above a designer talking about how great Flash is, Hmm at the end of the day, guess who gets all the crap from flash being used in web sites etc., THE CONSUMER (Mac people), so stop telling me how great it is, tell me how to fix that CPU overload, I get or the screen freeze from having Flash on my iMac 24" 'I do not freeze unless Flash is installed" system.

Sorry guys, but this irritates me, since we can all read with out the oversize text and pretty colors. To me it like shouting in a room trying to get your point over, when everyone is already listening.

I wish, the incredible reiteration of 'installed user base' and Apple (read MS) hate requires the obvious.
My apologies for stating it (the obvious) however frustration with the ill-informed drives me NUTS!
I will do my best to be less colorful.

Absolutely correct! It's time for flash to go the way of the dodo!

They're referring to some of Adobe's moves to block final draft & approval of the HTML5 standards. I wasn't aware that their target was canvas, would like to see that claim backed up as well.

To flash being dead though, I believe the time is coming & much quicker than any realize. The CS tools for flash may live long but it's use as a proprietary plug-in on the web is what everyone is talking about. Having their tools convert Flash to HTML5 means it is no longer flash, that would mean it is then HTML5.

Hi Gents,

This makes for interesting read especially 'Adobe evangelist' removing all Apple software from his computer. Yes it got to the kindergarden level.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/10/ado...acebook-group/

http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/09/ado...rself-apple-2/

I found the blog entry by the 'Adobe Evangelist" and even though he makes a point, what gets me is his oversight on double standards with concern to Adobe behavior to other competing software and pushing a
proprietary software on Mac users that is not optimized for the Mac system, but we should allow Adobe to provide us development tools for iPhone/iPad, so there can fill their bellies(profit) with Apple's clear winner in business strategy. You did not look after
desktop/laptop Mac users and you want us to believe, you sincere in providing tools for the iPhone/iPad and you do not have agenda and its all good for end-user

Screw you Adobe, Apple will not destroy you, but teach you some common sense in looking after your entire customer base. Issue is Adobe saw Mac ecosystem prior to iTouch/iPhone/iPad has very small, now Apple have eaten into the entire mobile computing market that includes PC and Mac users, Adobe now want to thrive off that success.

Screw you Adobe.

If I get ban, it is well worth it.

P.S. I am ranting. not had my wheaties today and just bought pixelmator and deleted Photoshop off my imac (good riddance)!

That video is very impressive. The only issue really would be the interaction part of it. For example clicking an element in an HTML 5 animation and having it do something on the HTML page elements. Same deal with video.

If this works well enough, the whole discussion is pretty much redundant as that's all people really want - a development environment for HTML 5 animation and Flash CS 5 delivers that. It won't support all the features at first but that's a great start.

It makes the whole iPhone publishing issue a non-issue too because if it can handle interactive Flash content in HTML 5, they can let it author an app in an HTML 5 context. Apple allows that.

The problem element really would come from Apple forcing developers to use C, C++, Obj-C or Javascript initially - I have a problem with that condition as it seems unnecessarily harsh. This prevents the Flash iPhone publishing because it originates in Actionscript using Adobe's APIs. It also must have an effect on Unity as they use C#.

The upside for Apple is that you must own a Mac to develop for their products. Microsoft have the same thing where you must run Windows to use their Visual Studio.

The worst thing I could see happening is that Adobe just deliberately make their apps run even slower on the Mac side. Support the Mac but make it slow so it seems like PCs are faster and then people assume Apple is at fault. It seems like they've already done that to some extent.

At least we'll see on Monday what the whole deal is with CS 5. Maybe some last minute changes to the iPhone authoring keynotes. It seems like Apple just threw this in to mess around with their presentations:

http://cs5launch.adobe.com/

I think that's an entirely reasonable post. Freedom of expression and all that.

Adobe have been treating Mac users like 2nd rate citizens for years. Since Mac Os X began, in fact. They thought they could give us 'slow, feature omission' software or in some cases...no software at all while they pinned their badge and the look of the apps onto the Windows Hegemony. Maybe they thought we were going to wither and die... Well, considering the revenues they were getting from Mac users...I question their integrity.

Now Apple has the 3rd Great Age of Computing, truly mobile computing, in the palm of their hands...Adobe wants a piece of the action. What? With bloated, lazy ass, slow, excremental updates? And they STILL can't get Flash right to run for Mac users? Too little, too late. They've been an apparent grudging ally for years. Look how long we had to wait for a native Os X Photoshop? They took their sweet, fanny ass time.

Now the shoe is on the other foot, the company that dropped software for the Mac want Apple to go out of their way when Adobe can't even get their own house in order?

Go screw yourselves, Adobe.

All kingdoms die in time. Adobe are kidding themselves if they think they're a standards based company. They lost sight of the little guy. Run by a sales guy who likes to over charge for industry standard software while offering very little in return for those substantial sums of money.

Given the technologies built into the core of 'X', it's relatively easy for a small team of developers to create an image editing app. This doesn't mean that Photoshop is going to be overhauled over night. But it does mean that Pixelator has had great reviews so far, choc load of features, great price, lightning fast with a sexy interface. For about £35 I can get it and it probably does 75% of the things Photoshop does just as well.

Before we dismiss the 'new gods', why not head over to the Pixelator developer page and read about how they develop the software, why they put features in...and why they leave some features out. Maybe Adobe could learn a thing or to.

For the record, I'm working on putting my 'comic' out there in the next year. The digital press company I wish to use accept RGB files to print from. There's no requirement for Photoshop, Illustrator or Indesign or Quark. The 'old gods' have had their fun at Apple's expense since Windows 95.

Flash, Windows, Adobe, Google, Photoshop...all these empires should be very wary of taking their lofty position for granted as we move in the next era.

Lemon Bon Bon.

I think they are learning that you cross Apple at your peril.

Apple will rail them to the headboard.

Lemon Bon Bon.

I agree with most of what this guy said. I hate it when I write a program to do something in perl, and someone tells me, you should write it in python / C++ / ... , it is better/ easily extensible/ can do GUI better ...
Well, Apple wrote stuff in Objective C for God's sake, and look how awesome it turned out. Java, which is an awesome language, is not ubiquitous ...
Fact is Apple ( Steve Jobs ) is not focusing on development so much, and being a class prefect of the tech industry. That does not bode well for Apple shareholders.

Job's right. Why should he give control of the iPhone platform to Adobe and flash developers...given their slow, buggy and omission feature rich treatment of Mac users?

If Apple introduce some great features, it would then be at the proprietary behest of Adobe and Flash developers to pick and choose. Remember Apple introducing GPU acceleration for Image Editing all those years ago? Adobe is STILL only just getting around to it. They can't tolerate that ceding of power or that tardiness. And it's ultimately Mac users and iphone users that will suffer. It's Apple's hardware/software platform. Don't like it? Don't support it and **** off. Adobe's chief evangelist won't be missed. I'll be exploring Photoshop and Illustrator alternatives and there's no guarantee I'll upgrade to CS5.

Adobe are doing to have to learn how to compete in the mobile arena. That's what Apple are trying to do. Don't like iphone. Go Android. How long before spyware, porn and virus and flash drag it down to the WIndows desktop mush we're suffered like Stockholm syndrome all these years.

No thanks.

I don't mind losing 10-20% of my computing freedom if it works as good as the iPhone, iPad. Those 200K apps will give me all the love I need. And does most of the things I need to do well. I don't need a 'Jack of all Trades' device called a computer all the time. Computers as we know them aren't very 21st century. The iPad is going to change all that. Like the iPhone before it...started the revolution.

I'd rather have Apple at the wheel of my destiny instead of Adobe. They've treated Mac users like crap for years. They've got no one to blame but themselves. They can keep squealing like stuck pigs. They're a closet PC company anyhow.

If Apple had Photoshop or Illustrator alts I use them in a flash. Heh.

Lemon Bon Bon.

Flash impact Apple shareholders.

Doubt it.

Lemon Bon Bon.