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Violence in Israel/Palestine

post #1 of 762
Thread Starter 
Okay - I just want to go on a rant here since I'm sick of reading about violence in Israel and Palestine:

My bitches against Israel:

1. Get out of the occupied terroritories, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. They're not yours - guess what, the owners want them back.
2. Stopping shooting refugees - this solves nothing and only creates even more pissed off Palestinians. Plus it makes your army look like a bunch of thugs.
3. Stop legalized torture. Sensory deprivation and violent shaking are torture. Admit it.
4. Apoligize to the U.S. for the U.S.S. Liberty and investigate
5. Forget Jonathan Pollard - he's a traitor who did it for the money, not Israel.
6. Stop sucking up so much American money. Pay for your own damn wars.
7. Stop the practice of collective punishement. Bulldozing entire Palestinian neighborhoods because a sniper once stopped by is unjust.
8. And I won't start about massacaring Egyptian POWS in the Sinai; driving Palestinian villagers out of Israel; your extremists groups; your refusal to compromise; your spying "art" students; your roadblocks in the occupied terroritories; your destruction of the Palestinian economy and education system; your inability to investigate your own army's abuses; etc.


My bitches against the Palestinians:

1. Stop shooting civilians and bombing discos - it only makes you look like terrorists (and some of you truly are). Especially don't attack civilians who aren't busy occupying your land.
2. Accept that Israel is going to exist. The best you can hope for is the pre-1967 border.
3. Drop the anti-Americanism. Probably reasonable since we back Israel, but counterproductive since you need the U.S. as much as the Israelis do.
4. Keep the religious extremists out. This will only get you caught up in the U.S.'s war on terror.
5. Apologize for the 1972 Munich attack, the Achille Luaro, the Rome Airport, etc.
6. Democracy works - try it some time.
7. And finally, Yasser, will you please shave off that ratty looking beard. It's driving me nuts.

Okay - my bitches are 8 against Israel and 7 (really 6) against the Palestinians. Undoubtably I'll be made out to be anti-semitic by Israeli apologists, although I'm not. I have no problem with Judaism (many of my friends are Jews) or the right of Israel to exist.

Whew - I feel better now. Having changed no ones mind, please feel free to tell me how wrong I am, why I'm anti-semitic, anti-arab, can't spell, don't understand the situation, blah, blah, blah....
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post #2 of 762
It doesn't make the "look" like terrorist. It makes them terrorist.

If the two sides want war then so be it. If the Palestinian terrorist want to hide in refugee camps among women and children then they have to accept collateral damage when the Israelis attack the terrorist cells.

Maybe when one side realizes that they have lost for real then we'll have peace.
post #3 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

If the two sides want war then so be it. If the Palestinian terrorist want to hide in refugee camps among women and children then they have to accept collateral damage when the Israelis attack the terrorist cells.

Maybe when one side realizes that they have lost for real then we'll have peace.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The terrorist accept collateral damage, many of them think the best thing that can occure is to die for their ideals (killing innocent is a strange ideal indeed , but it's an another debate where everybody here in AI will have the same opinion). The innocent victims (those who are not terrorist) does not accept to be collateral victims.
Futhermore like you have stated already, Palestine is not a democratia, so the palestinians have no power to stop the terrorist, and you can be sure if they trie, that they will be killed, their family conspued in public and prosecuted. What can an innocent people against a professional army of murderer ?

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
post #4 of 762
Yea and Gandhi had no power to stop the British and MLK had no power to stop discrimination and Lech Walesa had no power to stop the Soviet Union.

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #5 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Yea and Gandhi had no power to stop the British and MLK had no power to stop discrimination.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There was very few terrorist in India, and Gandhi was a good leader at the opposite of Arafat, put Arafat at the place of Gandhi and i am sure that the revolution of india should have been very different .

I am sure that you will agree Scott that there is no comparison possible between Gandhi and Arafat or Martin Luther King and Arafat. It's a great chance for a minority or a countrie to have a great leader that let change the world in peace.
post #6 of 762
Hummmm? Everyone duck! Scott_H the "racist" is coming. What religions were Ganhdi, MLK and Walesa. What religion were they not? Hummm? I think I see something there?
post #7 of 762
Also MLK and Gahndi and (i don't know) Walesa denounced violence at every turn. Even from people on thier "side".

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #8 of 762
Thread Starter 
Scott - yeah, you are a terrorist if you bomb discos and shoot unarmed civilians. I should have made that clear. On the other hand, I don't consider someone who's targeting the military forces of a hostile occupying power to be a terrorist, but we can argue semantics to no end.

However, aren't many of Israel's actions also terrorist in nature? For example, legal torture, collective punishment, forced relocation, appalling collateral damage (every day this week we've read about the Israeli army shooting Palestinian women and children). Being a Palestinian in the occupied territories must be a nightmare, whether you resist or not.

Frankly, I see little moral high ground on either side. Both sides either target civilians and/or show little concern for civilian casualties.

I simply wish both sides would reach a permanent and equitable settlement and stop the violence. The thought of all the lost lives and wasted potential makes me sick.
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post #9 of 762
As I've said before I would have a lot more respect for the Palestinians if they took on the Israeli Army. But they pass up the military targets in favor of the civilians ones. This is because they are filled with anti-semitic hatred. A dead jew is a good jew for them.
post #10 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Hummmm? Everyone duck! Scott_H the "racist" is coming. What religions were Ganhdi, MLK and Walesa. What religion were they not? Hummm? I think I see something there?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never said you are racist Scott. Perhaps you think of someone else in this board.

and Gandhi , MLK and Walesa are great peoples. I never say the same thing of Arafat in any of my posts. All of them where respectable and denounced the violence even of their own side ( i do not know either for Walesa) .

BTW the fact these men are great have nothing to do with what i said in my previous post that the fact Arafat "f***ck" does not excuse the collateral damage of innocent palestinians who don't live in a democratia under and they have a bad leader.

All the men you take in example are great, and are i think one of the greatest heroe of modern history. But i doubt that the way that Sharon act have something in common with them.

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
post #11 of 762
Thread Starter 
Scott, if you're suggesting that somehow "Muslims" are not capable of making peace, then yes, you are a bigot. Don't generalize your apparent distaste for the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat into dislike for Muslims.

BTW, there are plenty of Jews who think that the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian. Remember the bomb planted in the Palestinian school a few days ago by a Jewish terrorist group? Israel isn't exactly full of saints either.
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post #12 of 762
On average, history prove me correct.
post #13 of 762
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>On average, history prove me correct.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, it doesn't. You need to put together an argument, not just throw out unsupported statements.

And I can make a similar argument about Israel and the Jews using your logic (although I don't believe it). After all, there has been a Jewish state for roughly 50 years, which has been involved in near constant conflict, including wars it initiated in 1967 and 1982. And the last Jew who attempted to seriously negotiate peace was assassinated by one of his own. Guess, that makes Jews warmongers and not peacemakers, right Scott? Again, I don't believe this argument, but it's the logic you're using.
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post #14 of 762
Israel is a democracy. They have free speech and free exchange of ideas including those that are unpopular or could be considered dangerous.

Where's the new thinking in the Islamic world? Free excahnge of ideas? There is none. Speak out about Islam in a way that is not accepted and you end up like Salman Rushdie. It's very hard to defend this part if the world.
post #15 of 762
Thread Starter 
I'm not defending dictatorship or extremism. I'm merely recognizing that abuses exist on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And just because Israel is a democracy it doesn't put it beyond criticism, especially when they flout so many of the values that the United States and the international community stand for.

Furthermore, you're still generalizing to an inappopriate extent about Islam. If I pointed out that nearly all of Africa is beset by dictatorship, instability, war, corruption, and has little influence on world culture or intellectual/technological developments would you condemn blacks because of it. Of course not, you condemn the conditions, e.g., dictatorship, corruption, etc.; and not the religious/ethnic group(s). But this is what you do to the Islamic world.

I'm getting the idea that you're an unabashed supporter of Israel. What is your position on the conflict? What are your ideas to resolving it?
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post #16 of 762
Yo, Mr Gobble, The Blue Meanie agrees with every word you've written in this thread.
Have you read this thread:
<a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000832" target="_blank">http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000832</A>

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]</p>
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post #17 of 762
If terrorists run and hide amongst women and children in the camps Isral would be foolish to not go after them. They have a right to defend themselves. I'm not going to say Israel has never done anything wrong, but if the palestinians could control their urge to kill when they don't get everything they want they would have had their own State by now. Now, they are completely irrational with all the suicide bombings. The only way to deal with lunatics bent on killing themsleves as long as they take civilians wih them is for Israel to kill them first.......................................
post #18 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by gobble gobble:
<strong>...
your refusal to compromise
...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh please. Israel was read to do just that. Clinton got a great deal for the terrorist. But Arafat turned his back on it.


[quote]Originally posted by gobble gobble:
<strong>...
your spying "art" students
...</strong><hr></blockquote>

From what I read the spying art students is turning out to be false. Maybe a false rumor started by anti-semites?
post #19 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by gobble gobble:
<strong>
I'm getting the idea that you're an unabashed supporter of Israel. What is your position on the conflict? What are your ideas to resolving it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Scott thinks Palestinians are "dirty" and Muslims "backwards" and "barbaric" and the only way to solve the conflict is for the Palestinians to submit to Israel.

I think I am one of the people who has called scott a racist in the past. From what I have read, I stand by it but I wish I did not have to.
post #20 of 762
Scott! Have you read anything about Gandhi's attitude towards muslims? You shouldn't take his name in your mouth if your not ready to agree with his politics...
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post #21 of 762
Well, gobble gobble, I actually agree with everything you say but with one exception. Yes, Israel should get out of Gaza and the West Bank, but the Golan Heights is another issue entirely.
A) It has nothing to do with Palestinian problem. The Palestinians have as much hatred for the Arab nations that failed to support them as they do for the Israelis
B) Israel would gain nothing from giving up the Golan Heights. While giving up the other occupied territories would likely reduce Palestinian terrorist attacks, returning Golan Heights to Syria wouldn't do anything, because the Syrians aren't attacking Israel. The Hizbollah were, but the Syrians really have no power to contain them, and the attacks diminished when Barak pulled Israel out of Lebanon.
C) Israel would lose a lot. The Golan Heights is a highly strategic position. It allows Israel to control the water flow into the Jordan River from the Sea of Galilee, which is crucial in a desert nation. Additionally, it's a militarily important position, because 1) Syrian tanks were able to safely attack Israel in multiple wars from the higher ground and 2) there's an Israeli radar station in the terrority.

I find interesting that, 2 years ago, there were serious discussion of a peace accord between Israel and Syria, but it just dropped off the face of the earth.
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post #22 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

Oh please. Israel was read to do just that. Clinton got a great deal for the terrorist. But Arafat turned his back on it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Arafat turned his back, as did every orthodox Jew in Israel. The extremist Jews are every bit as bad as the fundamentalist Muslims. They're just more accepted because they hold offices in Israel. But they, unlike every other Israel citizen, don't fight in the military, they try to settle in Palestinian land (would the Mexicans like it if you went in and just said "hey, this is mine now), and they assassinated the one man who was leading the region to peace, Rabin. It's shortsighted and wrong to blame everything on the Palestinians.
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post #23 of 762
The return of the Golan heights is important for the stability in the region, but like agent302 said, this is an issue for Syria and Israel to ressolve. However with the Saudi Arabian proposal for a peace deal for the whole region, this is a serious obstacle...
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post #24 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Scott! Have you read anything about Gandhi's attitude towards muslims? You shouldn't take his name in your mouth if your not ready to agree with his politics... </strong><hr></blockquote>


I've read a lot of his stuff but don't remember him mentioning them directly. Why don't you enlighten me.
post #25 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>

Arafat turned his back, as did every orthodox Jew in Israel. The extremist Jews are every bit as bad as the fundamentalist Muslims. They're just more accepted because they hold offices in Israel. But they, unlike every other Israel citizen, don't fight in the military, they try to settle in Palestinian land (would the Mexicans like it if you went in and just said "hey, this is mine now), and they assassinated the one man who was leading the region to peace, Rabin. It's shortsighted and wrong to blame everything on the Palestinians.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Israel was ready to sign. They negotiated in good faith. Arafat never intended to. He went right back to being the murderous thug he is. I hope the next time he sets foot on US soil he is arrested and put on trial for first degree murder and then executed for his role in the kidnapping and murder of US citizens.
post #26 of 762
You might be interested to know that gandhi was strongly against the split between India and pakistan...
He felt that it should be posible for the hindus and the muslims to live peacefully together in one country...
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post #27 of 762
btw, you do know that while isreal was "ready to sign" they also keept on expanding their settlements at full pace?
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post #28 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>btw, you do know that while isreal was "ready to sign" they also keept on expanding their settlements at full pace?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yea. That's a good reason to stop peace talks and bomb a coffee shop. I see your point.
post #29 of 762
scott, are you really this stupid? Did I ever say this?
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post #30 of 762
He felt that it should be posible for the hindus and the muslims to live peacefully together in one country...

Hahaha! Should be possible is right! But in practice...
post #31 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>He felt that it should be posible for the hindus and the muslims to live peacefully together in one country...

Hahaha! Should be possible is right! But in practice...</strong><hr></blockquote>


Seems to happen in this coutry.
post #32 of 762
Gobble Gobble: or is it Goebbels Goebbels

Dont you Nazi Arab/Islamasist ever get tired for spiting your hate, lies, deceit and destruction everywhere you go?

Occupied territories?!? Occupied by whom? Occupied Jerusalem?!? Occupied by whom? If it werent for America, Judea and Samaria and Gaza would have long been liberated from you filthy Islamic imperialists. The fact is that Israel is toying with you. The Saudis got the American and the Europeans by the balls, and the Americans got the Israelis by the balls. And the left over Arab population from Jordan, Syria, and Egypt occupying Judea and Samaria and Gaza, are a bunch of thieves, gangsters and plain old bloodthirsty murderers, whose only talent in life is to murderer innocents. Im just amazed that Israel hasnt yet sent them packing to their respective countries. Or better yet, back to Allah. They want to be close to Allah, I say make it happen. Instead, the Israelis are supplying these gangsters with employment, petrol, gas, electricity, telephone, seaports, water. And also supplied them with the weapons that they are using day in and out to maim, kill, and generally terrorize the Israeli population with. Its just incredible what those poor Israelis are forced to put up with.

But it wont be long before your oil weapon will become a thing of the past, and just like the Europeans kicked you out of Europe so will you be kicked out our national Jewish lands.


PS: Egypt gets 2.5 billion dollars a year from America. Didnt hear you complain about that Gobble Gobble. I wonder why


mika.
post #33 of 762
PC^KILLA, the Macintosh of politics?

Take it as a joke or whatever. It was the first thing I thought of reading this.

Sorry sir you are not worth arguing with
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post #34 of 762
Re: "Sorry sir you are not worth arguing with "

Being that you are from Denmark I already pretty much know what you're all about. Not much different from the French are you? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

mika.
post #35 of 762
Or is it the CHEETAH of the right? (no offense Roger_, Scott etc)

So far we have established:

Gobble Gobble: Nazi Arab/Islamasist
Palestinians living in Israeli occupied territories (apparently all of them): bunch of thieves, gangsters and plain old bloodthirsty murderers, whose only talent in life is to murderer innocents.
Danes: Someone you know all about and not much different than the French <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

You sir are a troll or simply don´t get it (the reality thing) and I am still not arguing with you.

[Edit: but I actually would like to know what you "know" about Danes and where you got your "information" from]

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
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post #36 of 762
First, don't call me Sir. I happen to work for a living. And second, get a life you loser. 770 posts. How depressing. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

mika.
post #37 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>First, don't call me Sir. I happen to work for a living.</strong><hr></blockquote>

:confused: Am I missing the finer details of the english language here?


[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>And second, get a life you loser. 770 posts. How depressing. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Slick response there mika. I tip my hat for you. You are able to judge people based on their post count, their area of living and nationality. I guess you have me nailed then. As an encore perhaps you could use your magic touch and tell the audience the name of my girlfriends mothers first pet? You seems to have the gift of seeing right through people.

A bit more seriously: Are you from Israel? You said "...so will you be kicked out our national Jewish lands". But on the other hand I never met anyone with the name Mika in Israel. It sound more Finnish to me.
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post #38 of 762
How about I name the number of girlfriends you had? Is zero close enough?

And why would you bother to go to Israel? Damn, they really need to be more selective about who they let in into that country. First they let Arafat and his murderous gangsters in, and then French frogies like you.

And now go away frogy. I really dont like communicating with you. I can smell youre a loser all the way from here.


mika.


(And mika is the name of an ancient biblical Israeli prophet. But I don't expect you to know all about our ancient history).
post #39 of 762


[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>How about I name the number of girlfriends you had? Is zero close enough? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ah a comedian. Or clown. Or whatever...

[quote]<strong>And why would you bother to go to Israel?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because I have friends in Israel that I like and care for really much, I love Tel Aviv when things aren´t heated up like it is at the moment and I never got to ride my bike from Haifa to Eilat like I always have wanted.

[quote]<strong>Damn, they really need to be more selective about who they let in into that country.
First they let Arafat and his murderous gangsters in, and then French frogies like you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think a map of Europe and a book on false stereotypes would do you good.

[quote]<strong>And now go away frogy</strong><hr></blockquote>

Is that the new frozen low calorie dessert I´ve heard so much about?

[quote]<strong>I really dont like communicating with you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thats one of the disadvantages of posting on public message boards. Someone might tell you things you don´t want to hear.



[quote]<strong>I can smell youre a loser all the way from here.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again: Where is "here" exactly? And what kind of smell do a loser have?

[quote]<strong>(And mika is the name of an ancient biblical Israeli prophet. But I don't expect you to know all about our ancient history).</strong><hr></blockquote>

When half of your family is of jewish origin you hear a thing or two (mothers side so watch out). And having read books like "A history of religious idea" and "Sacred and profane" and "Myth of the Eternal Return" by Eliade and many other books on the origin of religion and all the monotheistic religions holy writings, the religious texts of many other religions and tales from cultures without a written language I actually think I got myself covered.

And once more: Are you in Israel?

To the board: Sorry for the last couple of posts. Normally I don´t post responses like these but PC^KILLA is no ordinary member.

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
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post #40 of 762
Half-breeds like you we can do without...

And what exactly did I miss about them Europeans and their history towards the Jewish people that you care to enlighten me with? The whole European history is drenched in one murderous action on top of another. There arent enough trees in the world to make enough paper so as to catalog all their monstrous and vile injustices towards the Jews. And not one single nation in Europe can escape this truth as it concerns it and the Jews under its protection.

Just dont kid yourself the anti-Israeli propaganda they feed you in Europe (e.g. BBC, etc.) is anti-Semitic in its intent and content and delivery, and is not much different from the kind of shit the Nazis and their sympathizers pulled back in the 20s and 30s.


mika.

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
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