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Violence in Israel/Palestine - Page 4

post #121 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Matvei:
<strong>PC*KILLA would be the perfect anti-zionist troll to send out into the world and make everyone feel for the palestinians and hate the israelis.

Unfortunately he is not. He truly IS the representative of the warped way of thinking that israel employs to justify their fascist ways.</strong><hr></blockquote>

At first I thought he was a troll but when he linked to those "news sites" I realized he was the real stuff. But I don´t believe he live in Israel. He posted on the wrong time of the day among other things.

I really don´t think Israel is as warped as he is. Sharon may say things in the heat of the conflict but he isn´t stupid and deep inside he knows he can´t fight his way to peace. I´m not trying to defend him: He is the worst thing that have happened to the region in a long time but fair is fair: He isn´t stupid.

And the people of Israel is probably more divided than we are here. Parts of them dislike the policies of Sharon more than I do.

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
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post #122 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Huh? It wouldn't even be Israel if it was located in Germany. Might as well just call it Jewland, but it wouldn't be 'Israel'. Israel is not just the people but the location. That's like saying we should give back to the Ottomans their empire... but make it in Brazil now... yes Brazil is a nice place.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, Palestine was not the first choice for the jewish homeland. A spot in Africa and another one in Argentina were the other envisioned areas.

A large proportion of the first zionists didn't like the idea of putting Israel in Palestine.

I don't have a link to sources (which would be nice ) but I remember this from classes I took years ago.
Matvei


"they want to be on 'God's' good side; they want to be saved; want 70 virgins, or raisins, or whatever . . ." -Pfflam
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Matvei


"they want to be on 'God's' good side; they want to be saved; want 70 virgins, or raisins, or whatever . . ." -Pfflam
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post #123 of 762
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I really don´t think Israel is as warped as he is. Sharon may say things in the heat of the conflict but he isn´t stupid and deep inside he knows he can´t fight his way to peace. I´m not trying to defend him: He is the worst thing that have happened to the region in a long time but fair is fair: He isn´t stupid.</strong>

Maybe not unintelligent per se, but surely an unenlightened and a warmongering dolt. I think he REALLY thinks that he can fight his way to peace. What makes you think he doesn't?

<strong>
And the people of Israel is probably more divided than we are here. Parts of them dislike the policies of Sharon more than I do.</strong>


I agree, but by accepting to serve in the occupied territories and living there, they are sort of committing an act of war against Palestine, no?

BTW: How come the OSX spell checker flags Palestine as an error and not Israel? Must be the conspiracy ...

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: Matvei ]</p>
Matvei


"they want to be on 'God's' good side; they want to be saved; want 70 virgins, or raisins, or whatever . . ." -Pfflam
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Matvei


"they want to be on 'God's' good side; they want to be saved; want 70 virgins, or raisins, or whatever . . ." -Pfflam
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post #124 of 762
[quote]Sharon may say things in the heat of the conflict but he isn´t stupid and deep inside he knows he can´t fight his way to peace. I´m not trying to defend him: He is the worst thing that have happened to the region in a long time but fair is fair: He isn´t stupid.<hr></blockquote>

Wouldn't it be ironic if Sharon was the Israeli leader who managed to make peace in the Middle-east?

[quote] Israel should have never been created on palestinian soil. Perhaps a part of Germany would have been more appropriate... <hr></blockquote>

I really don't think this is an issue worth debating. Its hardly a choice now anyway. Isreal is here to stay (and so are the palestinians)...
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post #125 of 762
Anyone got any numbers on how many palistinians are there and if Gaza and west bank is big enough to hold them all?
post #126 of 762
&gt;Unfortunately he is not. He truly IS the representative of the warped way of thinking that israel employs to justify their fascist ways.
Israel should have never been created on palestinian soil. Perhaps a part of Germany would have been more appropriate...&lt;

Israel wasn't created on Palestinian soil, it was created on Israeli soil. There never was an independent State of Palestine-ever. That area was always controlled by someone else, whereas Israel was indeed an independent country, and the Jews retook what was once theirs. I think its pretty darn nice of them to be trying so hard to give those Arabs a State of their own. I don't see the US giving Texas or California back to Mexico. Nor should it. Lands have been conquered and reconquered for all eternity. I don't see why its OK for the rest of the world but not for the Jews in Israel on their tiny, tiny plot of land. Their is plenty of room in the rest of the Middle East for the 'Palestinians' to resettle.

As for Israel being fascist, there are Arabs in Israel's govmnt. Find me one Arab country that has Jews in their govmnt..................................
post #127 of 762
Are there arabs in Sharons government? Sure you're not talking about the knesset?

[quote] ...and the Jews retook what was once theirs.<hr></blockquote>

They didn't take anything at first. They we're given the land by the UN and England...

[quote] I don't see the US giving Texas or California back to Mexico. <hr></blockquote>

I don't see the US baring the hispanic population of Texas from voting or working in other states...

[quote]There never was an independent State of Palestine-ever. <hr></blockquote>

well, the land must be said to have been under arabic/muslim rule for most of the last 1500 years... But thats hardly the point. The point is how to make the area livable for the people who actually live there now, (and maybe for some of those who still carry around the papers and pictures of what used to be their home and property in the not to distant past...)
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post #128 of 762
New:
re there arabs in Sharons government? Sure you're not talking about the knesset?

Yes, and the Knesset is part of the Govmnt, just like Congress is here

New:
I don't see the US baring the hispanic population of Texas from voting or working in other states...

Palestinians have always worked in Israel. Of course they can't vote, they aren't Israelis.

New:
well, the land must be said to have been under arabic/muslim rule for most of the last 1500 years... But thats hardly the point. The point is how to make the area livable for the people who actually live there now, (and maybe for some of those who still carry around the papers and pictures of what used to be their home and property in the not to distant past...)

And Israel has ben trying to get rid of the territories for decades, but only recently has Arafat and only a few arab countries even recognized Israel's right to exist..........................
post #129 of 762
[quote] Yes, and the Knesset is part of the Govmnt, just like Congress is here <hr></blockquote>

I'm a bit unsure of the definitions here (need to read up on my parlamentarism), but I thought there was a difference between the government and the natonal asembly.
The asembly elects the government, right?

[quote]Palestinians have always worked in Israel. Of course they can't vote, they aren't Israelis.<hr></blockquote>

I know that, but what status do you think they should have? I think Anders two options are both improvements over todays unacceptable situation.

[quote]And Israel has ben trying to get rid of the territories for decades, but only recently has Arafat and only a few arab countries even recognized Israel's right to exist<hr></blockquote>

Yet you don't recognize Palestines right to exist...
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post #130 of 762
New:
I'm a bit unsure of the definitions here (need to read up on my parlamentarism), but I thought there was a difference between the government and the natonal asembly.
The asembly elects the government, right?

No, the knesset has to approve govmnt actions, similar to the house of Commons in Britain and Congress in the US. Without them the heads of State would be dictators.

New:
I know that, but what status do you think they should have? I think Anders two options are both improvements over todays unacceptable situation.

I think there should be a Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza. The Israeli settlements should be abandoned and Palestinian refugees should be allowed to take the apartments. Thats my opinion.........

New:
Yet you don't recognize Palestines right to exist..

Absolutely untrue. They have a right to exist and so do Israelis. The Palestinians have to accept the reality of their situation and that Israel is permanent. The most they can hope for is the West Bank and Gaza. The refugees will never be allowed to live in Israel proper, but in my opinion Israel should offer them the current Israeli settlements.........................
post #131 of 762
From today's Jerusalem Post

<a href="http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/20/News/News.45526.html" target="_blank">http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/20/News/News.45526.html</a>

quote:

German TV report: Palestinians likely killed Gaza boy
By Allison Kaplan Sommer and Herb Keinon

JERUSALEM (March 20) - A German documentary producer who thoroughly investigated the killing of a Palestinian boy a year-and-a-half ago said yesterday it is "much more likely" 12-year-old Muhammad ad-Dura was killed by Palestinian gunmen, and not by Israeli soldiers.

Dura was shot to death in a Gaza Strip crossfire on September 30, 2000, while crouching for safety with his father. The incident was filmed by the France2 television network, and the pictures had a dramatic impact on the public perception of Israel's use of force, with the IDF widely accused of killing the boy.

The video footage of Dura and his father crouching in an alley as bullets whizzed passed them, and then the bleeding dying boy cradled in his father's arms provoked international outrage when it was broadcast.

The documentary aired Sunday night on the German television station ARD.

In an interview with IBA English News, producer Esther Shapira said the purpose of the series was to "understand the truth behind the pictures we see on television." She said that going into the project initially, "I thought it was clear it was an Israeli who fired the shot since we were talking about a Palestinian boy."

She said that the questions she meant to ask was why Israeli soldiers were killing children and how deliberate the shooting had been.

But as she began to delve into the incident, serious doubts were raised as to whether it had been Israeli and not Palestinian gunfire that killed the boy.

She said forensic evidence showed Dura had been shot either from in front or from above, the direction from which the Palestinian gunmen had been firing. For it to have been IDF fire that killed him, the shot would have had to enter from the side.

"According to our findings, it is much more likely it was a Palestinian bullet, not an Israeli bullet, that killed him," Shapira said.

Israel expressed its regrets for the tragic incident, though an IDF investigation did not prove conclusively who shot Dura.

The documentary also did not unequivocally conclude one way or the other, but did ask enough questions to leave the viewer with doubts about the conventional wisdom.

Among the questions raised were who had an interest in killing the boy; whether France2, which filmed the incident, released all the footage in its possession; whether it was possible to hit Dura from where the soldiers were positioned; where are the bullets taken from the boy's body; why did the Palestinians not investigate the incident; and who ordered the footage broadcast continuously on Palestinian television.

Daniel Shek, director of the Foreign Ministry's European Division, said the documentary is "very significant" because it leaves doubt.

"I have all along had a problem with the unbearable certainty of some who had no doubt who was responsible. I think doubt is healthy, and that even if you have a camera on the spot, you can not be sure you are seeing everything," he said.

Shek said he is "modest in his expectations" of whether this documentary will change the way people view Dura's death.

"Muhammad ad-Dura will remain part of the intifada's mythology, and it will not matter what kind of proof you bring to the contrary," he said.

"I hope this will impact a little on the self righteousness of some media organizations, and give journalists room for some self-questioning."


mika.

[ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #132 of 762
The truth always surfaces... sometimes too late to make a difference sadly.
post #133 of 762
[quote] No, the knesset has to approve govmnt actions, similar to the house of Commons in Britain and Congress in the US. Without them the heads of State would be dictators. <hr></blockquote>

So if the Knesset has to approve the governments actions, it can't technically be the government, right? The political opposition in
country can hardly be called PART of the government.

[quote] I think there should be a Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza. <hr></blockquote>

Goood! agreed then.

concerning the shooting:

[quote]
Photpgrapher Testimony in the Killing of Mohammad AlDurra

The following is a statement under oath by Mr. Talal Abu Rahma, a photographer of the French TV France 2, to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights on October 3, 2000, giving details of what he had seen:


"I, the undersigned, Talal Hassan Abu Rahma, resident of the Gaza Strip and who bears ID no. 959852849, give my statement under oath and after having been given legal warning and choice by Lawyer Raji Sourani, on the killing of Mohammed Jamal Al-Durreh and the injuring of his father Jamal Al-Durreh both shot at by the Israeli Occupying Forces.

"I work as a correspondent for the French TV France 2. On September 30, 2000, as part of my duties, I was at Netzarim area from 7:00a.m reporting on the clashes. At noon, when I was about to finish work and go back to the broadcasting studio, I heard intensive shooting from all directions. At that moment, I was at the northern part of the road leading to Al-Shohada' Junction (Netzarim Junction). I was in a position which enabled me to see and observe the Israeli military outpost at the northwest of the junction, and the two Palestinian apartment buildings located to the north of the junction. I could also see the outpost of the Palestinian National Security Forces, located south of the junction, and another Palestinian outpost 30m away, which was a temporary booth where members of Palestinian forces were resting.

"Suddenly, intensive shooting started across the road which is of 30m width. Shams Oudeh, Reuters photographer caught my attention, as he was sitting besides a man and a child (Jamal and his son Mohammed). They were all sheltering behind a concrete block. What the journalist was observing attracted my attention. I was trying to focus on the outpost of the Palestinian National Security Forces, from where shooting was directed, and at which the Israeli army was shooting, during the first minutes. Suddenly, I heard a cry of a child. Then, I focused my camera on the child Mohammed Jamal Al-Durreh who was shot in his right leg. His father tried to calm, protect and cover his son with his hands and body. Sometimes, the father Jamal was raising his hands asking for help. Other details of the incident are as they were apparently shown at the film. I spent approximately 27 minutes photographing the incident which took place for 45 minutes. After the father and the child were evacuated by an ambulance to the hospital, I stayed 30-40 minutes. I could not leave the area, because all of those who were in the area, including me, were being shot at and endangered.

"Shooting started first from different sources, Israeli and Palestinian. It lasted for not more than 5 minutes. Then, it was quite clear for me that shooting was towards the child Mohammed and his father from the opposite direction to them. Intensive and intermittent shooting was directed at the two and the two outposts of the Palestinian National Security Forces. The Palestinian outposts were not a source of shooting, as shooting from inside these outposts had stopped after the first five minutes, and the child and his father were not injured then. Injuring and killing took place during the following 45 minutes.

"I can assert that shooting at the child Mohammed and his father Jamal came from the above - mentioned Israeli military outpost, as it was the only place from which shooting at the child and his father was possible. So, by logic and nature, my long experience in covering hot incidents and violent clashes, and my ability to distinguish sounds of shooting, I can confirm that the child was intentionally and in cold blood shot dead and his father injured by the Israeli army.

"On the following day of the incident, I went to Shifa Hospital in Gaza, and interviewed the father of child Mohammed Al-Durreh. The interview was videotaped and broadcast. In the interview, I asked him about his reason and circumstances of being at the place of the incident. I was the first journalist to interview him on this subject. Mr. Jamal Al-Durreh said that he was going accompanied by his son Mohammed to the car market, which is about 2km away to the north of Al-Shohada' Junction, to buy a car. He told me that he failed to buy a car, so decided to go home. He and his son took a taxi. When they got close to the junction, they could not move forward because of the clashes and shooting there. So, they got out of the taxi and tried to walk towards Al-Bureij. As shooting intensified, they sheltered behind a concrete block. Then the incident occurred. Shooting lasted for 45 minutes.

"I am a professional and specialized journalist. I have worked in this field for many years. I am committed to the principles of journalistic work, and to convey reality indiscriminately, objectively and neutrally. This is why I am a distinguished journalist. I have my own press office, and I work as a correspondent for the French TV France 2. I work also for CNN through Al-Wataneya Press Office.

"I have hereby given my testimony under oath and after being legally warned and granted the choice. I swear that all the above * mentioned statement is right and consistent with reality and law." Signature:

Talal Hassan Abu Rahma, Gaza, October 3, 2000

This statement was given before me and in my presence, after giving legal warning and choice, and under oath.

Lawyer Raji Sourani Gaza, October 3, 2000 <hr></blockquote>

I didn't actually know that there where doubts about the shooting. From a brief search on the web I see that these doubts mainly origin from "non-objective" sources. ( heres a REALLY bad example: <a href="http://www.masada2000.org/" target="_blank">http://www.masada2000.org/</a>
But I'm not saying they have to be wrong. If the boy was shot be palestinian gunmen in the crossfire between Israelis and Palestinians, I would still hold the IDF mainly responsible. The most "professional" army in the world should be able to avoid aggresive confrontations INSIDE palestinian town while children are walking home from school. The IDF also hindered any amulances from entering the area for almost half an hour and shot a ambulance driver who tried to get to the boy on foot.
But I highly doubt that the shooters where palestinean. I've seen the drawing in the inquiry, and it looks ridiculous. If you look at the pictures and the film there is really no doubt about where the bullets the boy and his father are hiding from are comming . Just observe where the father is looking when he "peeks" out from behind the barrel... If the drawing is right about the shootingangle, then the shooter must have been the french TV cameraman...

[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #134 of 762
New:
So if the Knesset has to approve the governments actions, it can't technically be the government, right? The political opposition in
country can hardly be called PART of the government.


No, thats called a Democratic Government-counter balance. Every Democracy has a form of Congress otherwise the President would be a dictator..........

New:
I think there should be a Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goood! agreed then.

So does the Israeli Government
post #135 of 762
So then there arn't any arabs in the israeli government?
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post #136 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>So then there arn't any arabs in the israeli government?</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is. The palestinians inside Israels boarders (the minority of the palestinian population) have the right to vote. They just don´t sit in regjeringen. Besides that they are coming under pressure esp. in times like this.
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post #137 of 762
I don't wan't to turn this into a silly argument of words, but the government is the regjerning...
It relly isn't right to say that a member of parlament is in the government... So arab members om the Knesset are still not members of the government. You have no real power eccept your one vote.
You ellect the parlament, but you appoint the government.
If you guys have no objections I think we should cut it here. I got your point. I'll agree with you when I see an arab as an Israeli minister...
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post #138 of 762
New:
You ellect the parlament, but you appoint the government.
If you guys have no objections I think we should cut it here. I got your point. I'll agree with you when I see an arab as an Israeli minister...


I don't really think you do get it, but I'll be happy to stop discussing the matter....................
post #139 of 762
peace? An Israeli soldier speaks out, and goes to jail...

---------------------------

To: Minister of Defence Ben Eliezer
Ministry of Defence, March 19:

An officer for whom you are responsible has sentenced me today to 28 days in military prison for my refusal to serve in reserve duty. I did not refuse only to serve in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, as I have for the past 15 years, I refused to serve in the Israeli army in any capacity.

Since 29th September 2000, the Israeli army has waged a 'dirty war' against the Palestinian Authority. This dirty war includes extra-judicial killings, the murder of women and children, the destruction of the economic and social infrastructure of the Palestinian population, the burning of agricultural fields and the uprooting of trees. You have sowed fear and despair but failed to achieve your ultimate objective; the Palestinian people did not give up their dream of sovereignty and independence. Neither did you provide security for your own people despite all the destructive violence of the army over which you have responsibility.

In light of your great failure, we are now witness to an intellectual debate amongst Israelis of the worst kind: a discussion about the possible deportation and the mass killing of Palestinians.

The failed attempt of leaders of the Labour Party to impose a settlement on the Palestinian people has dragged us into a 'dirty war' for which Palestinians and Israelis are paying with their lives. The racist violence of the Israeli security establishment, who do not see people but only 'terrorists,' has deepened the vicious cycle of violence for both Palestinians and Israelis.

Israelis are also the victims of this war. They are the victims of the irresponsible and failed aggression of the army over which you are responsible. Even when you waged the most deadly attacks on the Palestinian people, you did not fulfill your duty: giving security to the citizens of Israel. Tanks in Ramallah cannot stop your most monstrous creation: the desperation which explodes in coffee shops. You, and the military officers under your command, have created human beings whose humanity disappears out of desperation and humiliation. You have created this despair and you cannot stop it.

It is clear to me that you have risked all of our lives only in order to continue building illegal and immoral settlements, for Gush Etsion, Efrat and Kedumim: for the cancer which eats away at the Israeli social body. For the past 35 years, the settlements have turned the Israeli society into a danger zone. The Israeli state has sowed despair and death both for the Palestinians and Israelis.

Therefore I will not serve in your army. Your army that calls itself the 'Israeli Defence Force', is nothing more than the armed wing of the settlement movement. This army does not exist to bring security to the citizens of Israel, it exists to guarantee the continuation of the theft of Palestinian land. As a Jew, I am repelled by the crimes this militia commits against the Palestinian people.

It is both my Jewish and human duty to resolutely refuse to take any part in this army. As the son of a people victim to pogroms and destruction, I cannot be a part of your insane policies. As a human being, it is my duty to refuse to participate in any institution which commits crimes against humanity.

Sincerely
Sergio Yahni
post #140 of 762
also on the issue of the Knesset...

[quote] Thee idea of establishing a second legislative assembly, alongside the Knesset, was discussed at length last week by a cross-section of 70 leading figures from the worlds of politics, academia and law. <hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/17/Features/Features.45305.html" target="_blank">from jpost</a>

[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: thentro ]</p>
post #141 of 762
That soldier is what we call a 'traitor'. I feel he got off way too easy. While the Palestinians slaughter Israelis he feels the army should do nothing? That asswipe should be put in jail for far longer than he got................................
post #142 of 762
[quote]While the Palestinians slaughter Israelis he feels the army should do nothing?<hr></blockquote>

The death toll is about 1 israeli to 5 palestineans right now... Over 1500 people have been killed in the last 18 months...
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post #143 of 762
the number is more like 1 for 3.5, not 1 for 5 from sept 2000..(Get you facts right)

As for 666,
Has the occupation of Palestine really helped? Today more kids got shot and killed by school and another died from a shot to the head 3 days ago. Does this help? Every day international criticism grows against Israel. Does this help? People are so hopeless as to kill them self in revenge on innocents, for innocents. Does occupation help? Will destroying roads, bombing jails, and shooting at medical crews help?

Perhaps this man has a point...
post #144 of 762
Been spending a lot of time lately checking out what various bloggers have to say about this and other issues. There are some very smart people out there with interesting perspectives. I don't know if this guy is "on the money" but I'm inclined to believe he is.

<a href="http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/index.html" target="_blank">Watch this space</a>

[quote]Pay no attention to the suicide bombers, they are not currently the issue. Do not notice how Israel responds. The ceasefire talks that Anthony Zinni is chairing may stop or start. A fundamental shift has just occured in the relations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Dick Cheney has taken over from Ariel Sharon as Yasser Arafat's gaoler (or more precisely, probation officer). The Palestinians who thought they were fighting the Israelis, now find themselves staring directly at the United States.

This is the meaning of the invitation the U.S. vice president extended to Mr. Arafat to meet him in Cairo, Monday, before the Arab League Summit in Beirut (on Wednesday and Thursday, next week). The invitation is conditional. Gen. Zinni must first report that Mr. Arafat is making a "100% effort" to stop terrorist attacks on Israel. As ever, Mr. Arafat thinks he will be the last to blink. He wants to see if Mr. Cheney will meet him, even after he has privately ordered his militias to continue with the carnage. Gen. Zinni, anticipating that, is now telling him it is an extremely stupid idea. But Mr. Arafat has a genius for this kind of stupidity, has found it is consistently rewarded, and why stop now?

Because he is no longer dealing with Israel, or Mr. Sharon. He is instead staring down a U.S. administration that is about to decide whether it can live with him any more, and frankly doubts that it can. Mr. Cheney had, according to my information, actually told several Arab leaders during his regional tour that he would be personally taking over Mr. Arafat's file. The news was intended to reach Mr. Arafat from them, first.

In an exquisite piece of diplomatic choreography, Colin Powell, the U.S. secretary of state, declared the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, under Mr. Arafat's command through the Fatah faction, to be an official "foreign terrorist organization" within hours of the suicide bombing it claimed, at the corner of Agrippas and King George St. in Jerusalem. President Bush paused in El Paso, to express his disappointment with Mr. Arafat's latest failure. And Gen. Zinni let Mr. Arafat personally understand the U.S. was aware the murderer, Mohammed Hashaika, had been released from Palestinian police detention in Ramallah at Mr. Arafat's instruction...<hr></blockquote>
shooby doo, shooby doo
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post #145 of 762
[quote] the number is more like 1 for 3.5, not 1 for 5 from sept 2000..(Get you facts right) <hr></blockquote>

uhh no... the number is more like 6 to 1 acording to The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories:
<a href="http://www.btselem.org/" target="_blank">btselem.org</a>
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post #146 of 762
&gt;As for 666,
Has the occupation of Palestine really helped? Today more kids got shot and killed by school and another died from a shot to the head 3 days ago. Does this help? Every day international criticism grows against Israel. Does this help? People are so hopeless as to kill them self in revenge on innocents, for innocents. Does occupation help? Will destroying roads, bombing jails, and shooting at medical crews help?
Perhaps this man has a point... &lt;

And do you think if Israel just pulled out of the territories the violence against them would stop? There are enough fanatics on the Palestinian side to carry on the violence regardless of what Israel does. They are trying to come to a peaceful conclusion but no country in the world would stand by while their citizens are being slaughtered.

As for world opinion, the world isn't saving Israeli lives. World opinion pushed this peace plan which resulted in nothing but more death and violence. Screw world opinion.........................
post #147 of 762
From today's Jerusalem Post.

<a href="http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/27/LatestNews/LatestNews.46007.html" target="_blank">http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/27/LatestNews/LatestNews.46007.html</a>

quote:

(17:00) Palestinian ambulance driver caught transporting bomb

Reserve soldiers at a mobile roadblock today captured a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance driver who was caught transporting an explosive belt of the type detonated by suicide bombers, Israel Radio reported.

The ambulance was stopped and searched between Nablus and Ramallah, and soldiers found the explosive belt under a stretcher upon which a Palestinian boy was lying. The boy's family was with him in the ambulance.

The ambulance driver, Islam Jibril, a resident of the Balata refugee camp near Nablus, told interrogators he received the belt from Muhammad Titti, a senior Tanzim activist close to Palestinian Authority West Bank security chief Marwan Barghouti.

The belt contained some 10 kilograms of explosives. IDF sappers detonated it in a controlled explosion


mika.
post #148 of 762
Another bombing today. israel should close the border to all palestinians for one month after every bombing. Let them wallow in their own shit and starve for awhile and see if that gets their attention.

I tell you something-from the comments my friends here are making about the violence the palestinians have lost almost all support from even people who were not exactly pro-Israel. Some of them think Israel should just bomb the hell out of them. ...............................................
post #149 of 762
For the first time, the whole of the arab world is ready to offer Israel peace and recognition. And the extreemist blow it all to pieces... there was a second attack (on a settlement) just now.
The Isreali retribution will be the hardest yet.
Oh, what a depressing day. First a chance for turn to the better, and now this...

[ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #150 of 762
20 dead (so far) and 170 injured yesterday in one of the deadliest attacks ever.

Since Zinni has been in the region Israel has suffered 2 more terrorists attacks but in the interest of peace there was no retaliation.

Israel caved into the immense pressure not to retaliate because doing so would only make the situation worse (or so we've been told.)

That worked so well, as seeing how maybe the worst ever terrorist attack just happened during the cease-fire negotiations.

You bet Israel will respond. It is now obvious the Palestinians do not want peace, only to destroy Israel. Whether we respond to terror with retaliation, or whether we choose to restrain ourselves, it only gets worse.

I have always believed in peace, but now I have changed my mind, it is time to destroy the Palestinian Authority once and for all as they have no intention of stopping the violence, for even as Israel stops retaliatory strikes, the Palestinians decide to continue to murder innocent civilians.

[ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>
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post #151 of 762
Just as I have finished typing this another terrorist attack has occured. 3 dead and 2 wounded and a possible hostage situation.
"All good things must come to an end."
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post #152 of 762
"You bet Israel will respond. It is now obvious the Palestinians do not want peace, only to destroy Israel. Whether we respond to terror with retaliation, or whether we choose to restrain ourselves, it only gets worse."

You think these madmen speak for all the palestinians? Why would the PA shoot itself in the foot just now? When they have the whole arab sumit finally backing them for peacetalks and a palestinian state...
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post #153 of 762
Lets try and use a little logic here.

Why is perhaps the worst terrorist attack taking place while the entire arab world for the first time is making a plan that will normalize the relationship between them and Israel, a plan that Arafat is embracing fully? Of course there is groups that want the plan to fail and is prepared to fight it but who don´t representing more than a fraction of the Palestinians.

Israel had a policy until very recently of not talking to the palestinians before there hadn´t been an attack in at least seven days and that was like giving those who don´t want peace an offer they couldn´t refuse. As long as they could get four suicide bombers a month they could have it their way (luckily Sharon realised that and cancelled that policy). And what we are seeing right now is the terrorists "natural" reaction to the arab peace plan. And the best Israel can do to feed the terrorists is to retaliate the terrorist attacks because it helps them justify their attacks and keep the cycle of violence running. Retaliation is exactly what the terrorists want.

In short: Palestinians aren´t just Palestinians. Not more than Timothy McVeigh is Bush. And to say that the attacks today shows that Palestinians won´t have peace with Israel is as right as saying that the school shootings in US shows that the US population believe in murdering each other.
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post #154 of 762
Guys. If the Palistinian common man didn't want the extremists talking for them then why not turn these bastards in?! They LIVE with the common man! The common man KNOWS who the extremists are. They could turn them in. But they don't. Don't they realize these extremist are ruining any chance at long term peace?
post #155 of 762
well, there is no simple solution here. To most palestinians, Isreal is still the main enemy and oppressor. Collaboration with Israel is seen as treason. And you've probably seen how these people are dealt with.
I believe a change has to come from within. The PA has to deal with the extreemist. But right now they have neither the power nor the motivation to do this...
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post #156 of 762
Perhaps an ultimatum is in order, "President Arafat, if you do not stop the violence - for real - we will."

And then, if Arafat really wants his people to have a home, he will make a 100% effor, not 50%, and he will crack down on terror. If he does not then he can expect the PA to be destroyed, possibly he could lose his life, and the territories will be re-occupied, and possibly the Palestinians expelled, and they will have to find 1 of 22 Arab states in which to live.

Let's hope it doesn't come to that, but we're close, Arafat's run out of time.

[ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>
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post #157 of 762
The history of public pronouncements repeats

Arafat and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, signed countless agreements in the late 1960s. In a 1968 agreement the PLO specifically agreed to recognize Jordanian sovereignty and refrain from carrying weapons in Jordanian towns. Arafat violated these agreements as soon as it was possible to do so. Arafat In the 1970s signed agreements with Lebanon, recognizing that states sovereignty, as well. Arafat violated these agreements as soon as it was possible to do so.

Yet despite a clear history of duplicity, such that no Arab state would put stock in an agreement signed by Yasser Arafat, the State of Israel gambled its future on him. It was pure Jewish naivete. Many Israelis wanted to believe that there were honest intentions behind PLO leader Yasser Arafats signature on the 1990s Oslo Accords.

But in 1994, after signing the very first agreement between the PLO and Israel, Arafat made a speech in Arabic in Johannesburg, South Africa. Arafat turned to the story of the Meccan peace accord.

In that speech, Arafat compared the Gaza-Jericho First Oslo agreement with Israel to the 628 CE Hudaibiya Pact between Mohammed and the Quraysh tribe that ruled Mecca at the time. Mohammed wanted Mecca for Islam, but did not as yet have the military wherewithal to do so. Therefore, he signed a ten-year peace accord with the leaders of Mecca. However, just two years later, in 630 CE, after Mohammed had built up his forces sufficiently, he violated the pact and assaulted the city. Arabs call the episode "hilam" - a war strategy.

That ethos of the double-cross is very acceptable in the realm of Islam. Its even praiseworthy in Islam. Many Israelis are not aware of this, but are now only beginning to get a glimpse of this reality.

But some people are just too emotionally invested in dreams of peace. Sadly, what they do not yet realize, is that as long as they let these emotions cloud their better judgment, peace will never arrive.

So, the history of public pronouncements repeats And now, Arafat is being given yet another opportunity to sign yet another agreement.


mika.

[ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #158 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by MacsKickAss:
<strong>Perhaps an ultimatum is in order, "President Arafat, if you do not stop the violence - for real - we will."

And then, if Arafat really wants his people to have a home, he will make a 100% effor, not 50%, and he will crack down on terror. If he does not then he can expect the PA to be destroyed, possibly he could lose his life, and the territories will be re-occupied, and possibly the Palestinians expelled, and they will have to find 1 of 22 Arab states in which to live.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am very happy that you actually want this to end with a palestinian state and a real peace. Not everyone here seems to want that.

But I still can´t agree with you. 90+% of the palestinians have lived in the occupied areas or in Israel all their lifes and so have their grandparents and have done nothing against Israel. No matter what happens on the political level they all have an individual right to be treated fair. They have the right to have something to say about their life and who govern the area they live on. In a war it can be nessesary to occupy an area for some time but not for generations like Israel do. They either have to give up the area or to make it part of Israel and give the people all the rights Israelis have.

And the palestinians can´t just go live in other arab countries. They are either from the land now known as Israel or in the occupied territories. What you suggest is like asking me to go and live in France (no offense Powerdoc ) because our queen offended Russia and they want our land in return. Or you to live in England because US is given back to the Indians.

About the Arab peace plan. Its the best thing in a long time because it seems its backed up by all arab states, UN, US and EU and can bring peace between all arab states and Israel. I hope it will put huge pressure on Arafat as well as Israel. Only thing I really dislike is the part about Palestinians originating from Israel should be able to choose between compensation from their confiscated property or to go back to live in Israel. All this is according to an old UN resolution but when this has been discussed before it has generally been agreed that the last choice should be made so no one would choose it. I don´t believe that states should be build on religion as we build Israel but as it is now it would be impossible for Israel to accept any other situation than a large majority of its population being jews. So from a strategic POW they should reformulate that paragraph so the only real solution was compensation.
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post #159 of 762
Anders, if a Palestinian state is created, or the the territories are merged with Israel, do you think the violence will really stop?

What they really want is the destruction of all of Israel, maybe not all of them think that, but they are at least sympathetic to the suicide bombers that will try to make that happen.

What's happened is that we've given in completely to Arafat and the Palestinians yet that is not enough for them, for what they truly want is no Israel period, no matter how much land is given to them.
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post #160 of 762
what is it that Palestinians want? What are they defending?
Meny people like Binyamin Netanyahu believe that the sole purpose of the PA is to destroy Israel. An infact the whole intent of the Arab nations is to destroy Israel. I can see why he believes that. In 1948 the Arab states were against Israel. The Yom Kippur war 1973 was an attempt to expel Israel from their lands and failed. But now Israel is here for good.
The Palestinians just want a home and to live like humans again. That is what the intifada is. An uprising to get a home land, once lost, back and to end the fear that consumes daly life. Oddly enough this is what Israel wants too.

Netanyahu said today:
"First, we must immediately dismantle the Palestinian Authority and expel Arafat. Second we must encircle the main Palestinian population centers, purge them of terrorists, and eradicate the terrorist infrastructure. Third, we must establish security separation lines that will allow Israeli armed forces to enter Palestinian territory, but prevent Palestinian terrorists from entering our towns and cities."

This is the kind of voice that has Sharon ear now. I fear for all the people of the middle east tonight. Reports of tanks entering cities are coming in now. I fear that blood shall wash the streets and all hope will be lost. Those who have not hope can not be controlled. I fear that Israel has no hope. I fear that Palestinians are about to lose all hope...
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