Violence in Israel/Palestine - Page 5

"But Ra'anan Gissin, an Israeli government spokesman, said Arafat "has nothing to fear about his personal safety."


What the hell is Israel trying to do start a massive mid-east war!!! What if they get attacked by other arab states trying to defend Arafat! What will the US do then!
God Damn sharon and his henchmen. Whats next I wonder...

I know! Israel should just let the Palestinians kill a couple dozen jews a week. What's a couple jews. They have millions! If Israel just does nothing then the problem will just go away. What's so hard for them to understand?

Whats hard for them to understand is the root of the attacks and what the results of a larger scale war will be. If Israel did nothing the problem would NOT go away. Things COULD start to heal if they pulled fully out of occupied territories and work on peace, something Israel will not do. So they take the other side and will attempt to kill arafat (or capture him), and set up nazi like conditions over the occupied cities. This could escalate into a larger Israeli-Arab war that the US could get sucked into and cause major havoc, causing the deaths of thousands on both sides. This is what Israel cant understand.
This has not fully happened yet, but this slope just got alot more slippery.

[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: thentro ]</p>

Consider these two late newsclippings:
What strikes you as wrong?

[quote]20:54\tPA sources: IDF takes over Arafat`s office building, confining him to one floor, cutting off electricity

20:50\tPowell says terror caused situation, calls on Arafat to act against terror<hr></blockquote>

And check out my new signature:

thentro and New, you keep blaming Israel for the violence, but what have the Palistinians done for peace? What has Arafat done to stop the suicide bombers? Where is the outrage of the average palistinian against what the terrorists are doing to hamper the peace process?

Does anyone honestly think the palistinians WANT peace?! Not unless peace=the destruction of Israel.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Consider these two late newsclippings:
What strikes you as wrong?


20:54 PA sources: IDF takes over Arafat`s office building, confining him to one floor, cutting off electricity

20:50 Powell says terror caused situation, calls on Arafat to act against terror
</strong><hr></blockquote>

At least he gave him four minutes to do something. When dealing with terrorists you have to be hard (sorry this was one last laugh in a place of dying)
.
What is wrong with those two news clippings is that either do US not know whats going on in Israel but support it nonetheless or else it doesn´t know how to react. In both cases Israel is toying with US.

[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>

I dont think the US knows what to do now. I think its funny that zinni wants to still have negotiations. How can you have negotiations with a gun (now literally) at your head? They might as well take Arafat away and put him in jail for all the freedom he has now.

Also, I blame the bombers just as much for destroying peace. They are hurting there cause as much as Israel is. But look why they are doing it. Is it because they are Palestinian and thus just evil? Or is it because of abuse of their people over the occupation that has lasted far to long.

But look why they are doing it. Is it because they are Palestinian and thus just evil? Or is it because of abuse of their people over the occupation that has lasted far to long.

It's because their leaders tell them it's ok to kill jews. And the fact they can't ever even imagine living with those jews.

[quote]It's because their leaders tell them it's ok to kill jews. And the fact they can't ever even imagine living with those jews.<hr></blockquote>

&lt;stupid voice&gt;
It's because their leaders tell them it's ok for their soldiers to kill arabs. And the fact they can't ever even imagine living with those arabs.
&lt;/stupid voice&gt;

Let's try to get beyond this level of argumentation...

[quote]Originally posted by thentro:
<strong>Also, I blame the bombers just as much for destroying peace. They are hurting there cause as much as Israel is. But look why they are doing it. Is it because they are Palestinian and thus just evil? Or is it because of abuse of their people over the occupation that has lasted far to long.</strong><hr></blockquote>No, it's because they are evil. I don't know how else you'd define evil - their culture is centered around killing themselves to kill civilians and children.

The only reason Israel is occupying those territories is because they were attacked repeatedly from those territories. They are defending themselves, and the Arabs are the aggressors.

If the arabs are the sole agressors, why is the death rate 1 israeli to 5 palestinians?

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>If the arabs are the sole agressors, why is the death rate 1 israeli to 5 palestinians?</strong><hr></blockquote>If I attacked someone bigger than me, and I got beat up in the fight, I'd still be the aggressor.

BTW, after the last couple of weeks, I'm not sure that ratio is accurate anymore.

If someone attacks you, and you beat him, but then you go after his whole family, who's the agressor then?
I'm saying both parties are quite agressive... The big difference is Sharon and his cabinet has full control of their forces, while I believe Arafat has very little (if any) control right now...

Nobody (in their right mind) ever blamed the Israeli government for the Goldstein masacre...

About the Ratio, I checked it just now, but downgraded it from 1 to 6 to 1 to 5, just to be sure.
However I belive the IDF is working on those numbers right now... the current actions in the Arafat compund has killed 1 Israeli soldier, 5 palestinean police, 2 palestinean civilians.

It's because their leaders tell them it's ok for their soldiers to kill arabs. And the fact they can't ever even imagine living with those arabs.

That's a flawed analogy or satire. The Israeli leaders DON't EVER tell their populous to suicide bomb the enemy. And they DO live with arabs in Israel. But it is EXTREMELY RARE to see to see a jew living in a muslim nation among muslims.

(note my extreme use of CAPS. Makes me more right )

Of all the players with influence in that region... there is not a single party that really wants peace. Every so-called effort at a cease-fire is phoney, every call for a truce a sham. This craziness will go on and on and on and on, just like it has done for time immemorial. The Palestinians, (and Arab states in general) are indoctrinated as kids to hate the Jews and not recognise their right to exist in peace. Palestinian suicide bombers kill innocent Jews. The Israeli military bulldoze Palestinian farms, villages and homes and shoot kids who throw stones at the the symbols of Israeli occupation and oppression. Fellow Arab states regard Palestinians as 3rd class citizens and despite their huge oil wealth, have done next to nothing to invest in a stable Palestinian homeland.

Those who reap the most handsome rewards by the continuation of unrest are those who manufacture the tools of warfare. The market for arms in the region is vast. Israel has an unknown number of nuclear warheads (perhaps 150+ now). All sides feel threatened in one way or the other. Peace in the middle east will *never* happen so long as all sides feel threatened. Peace will *never* happen when profits/bottom lines of the biggest military-industrial entities are kept healthy by the constant clamor of governments in the region for more and more weapons.

It's all down to big-$$$ interests exploiting intolerances, rivalries, and hatreds which have been going on for centuries. It's almost as easy as printing money. A bigger battle than trying to get the Arabs and Israelis to live in peace with each other is getting the arms industry to sacrifice a portion of its fat profits. Peace just doesn't cut it, economically, most specially to economies which are sustained by warfare and the promotion of human misery.

[quote]That's a flawed analogy or satire. The Israeli leaders DON't EVER tell their populous to suicide bomb the enemy.<hr></blockquote>

Firstly; Not all of the Palestinian leaders tell the palestinians to go blow themselves up, NON of the PA leaders do.
Secondly; They don't need suicide bombers. They have all the tanks. But there are several Israeli leaders on the exteem right who approve of the killing of palestinian civilians...

[quote]
(note my extreme use of CAPS. Makes me more right <hr></blockquote>
LOL <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

Samantha: It's not about the $ its about the religion... Blaming it on the Arms-dealers is like blaming The Beermakers for alcoholism... Its all about political decisions. The Weapons are just the consequens... However a the US pouring weapons into the region hasen't exactly made things better...

&gt;Firstly; Not all of the Palestinian leaders tell the palestinians to go blow themselves up, NON of the PA leaders do.
Secondly; They don't need suicide bombers. They have all the tanks. But there are several Israeli leaders on the exteem right who approve of the killing of palestinian civilians...&lt;

None of the PA leaders tell them to!? Are you for real? The bulk of the bombers were from the military arm of fatah. Arafat talks peace in english, then in arabic tells them that they will storm Jerusalem. He is instigating the attacks because he feels the terror will make Israelis feel helpless and give the arabs what they want. Israel needed to let him know in a big way that terror will get them nowhere. In my opinion Israel should have killed him outright. Blow up the entire compound and then say 'Next?.. Thats what happens when you attack us while we are trying to formulate a peace plan.' Arabs understand violence, not peace. Israel may have to just force a peace plan on them. Leave all jewish settlements , shove Palestinians living in gaza into the West Bank and seal off the border with the West bank.

The Palestinians have never wanted peace. If they did they would have had it by now when Israel was ruled by doves Rabin and Barak. Their resort to violence is the cause of Israels actions. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy.

As for Arab countries coming to Arafats aid-never happen. They know they would lose and they can't stand the asshole....................................... ....................................

No, the bulk of bombers were not from fatah, and fatah is a "loose" organisation with a host of branches...

If you knew any arabic, you would know that the arafats speeches are about giving honor to all the palestinians who have died in the conflict. 40% of them under 18 years old. And most of the civilians or policemen killed in clashes with the IDF. The term "Martyr" applies to all of them, every casualty. Its a crude term to us, but so is "Crusade" to them...

[quote] Thats what happens when you attack us while we are trying to formulate a peace plan. <hr></blockquote>
I thought is was the arabs who just came up with a peace plan...

I thought is was the arabs who just came up with a peace plan...

Israel has been talking peace for the last 8 years, while being bombed by the very people it was trying to make peace with.

The 'arab' peace plan is dead in the water if they keep insisting on refugee returns to Israel. Palestinians lost the wars it fought against Israel-they aren't going back-period. They can move to the new palestinian state that would be set up and would have been set up by now if Arafat could keep the blood from his hands....................

Arafat should be feeling really lucky right now, he's still alive. The Israel gov't decided not to kill or expell him.

Will he stop the terror or will he just sit in his desk and "condemn" the suicide bombings and then order his generals to procure more arms from Iran and tell his militia leaders to kill a few dozen more Jews, then plead to the international community to end the so-called "Israeli aggression?"

And for those who think the Palestinians and the Arabs in general are justified, think about this.

Imagine you own a house. Some other people enslave you, persecute you, and exile you from your home.

A couple thousand years later you return to your house after your neighbourhood voted to split your house between you, and some other people that decided to like your house.

You say, sure, I'm a really nice guy, I'll share my house. However, the person does not like that, he wants all of your house for himself.

He gets his neighbours together and they try to force you to leave your half of the house, but they fail.

Over the next 54 years you try to make peace with guy in the other half of your house, you offer the other half to be his own.

But instead he commits acts of terror against you.

If you were forced from your house and later were able to return, wouldn't you want it back? Don't the Jewish People deserve their land back? Are the Palestinains right for killing Jews?

We offer them the Judea, Samaria (West Bank), and the Gaza strip, and East Jerusalem as their capitol. We offer them our rightful national homeland, yet they say no, its not enough and kill our innocent civilians.

How can anyone say that's right. How is that Israel's fault?? It's those evil Jews occupying the West Bank and Gaza. A terrible occupation against the Palestinain people so lets go kill those Jews.

&lt;sarcasm&gt; Well sorry for occuying our land&lt;/sarcasm&gt;

Oh wait, we don't actually occupy the WB/Gaza, it was given over the Palestinians in the Oslo Accords in 93. Oops, looks like there's no occupation, and the few tanks and soldiers we send in to dismantle terrorist infrastructure is because the PA simply will not do it.

So how the hell is all this Israel's fault?

[ 03-30-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>Arafat talks peace in english, then in arabic tells them that they will storm Jerusalem. </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> dude, you watch way too much CNN.

BTW, explain to me how destroying his compound and cutting-off all the phone lines allows him to arrest and punish the terrorists?

"Oh wait, we don't actually occupy the WB/Gaza, it was given over the Palestinians in the Oslo Accords in 93. Oops, looks like there's no occupation, and the few tanks and soldiers we send in to dismantle terrorist infrastructure is because the PA simply will not do it."

No occupation? Thats like saying there is no terrorism.
And your goss simplifications and sarcastic tone just does not hold any water.

I wonder, can you stretch your self to see only a little bit ( even just hypothetical) why the Palestinians are angry?? Your story makes it seem like all of Israel is just like one big episode of "Father Knows Best" and those 'darn Palestinians are throwin rocks again! Why dont they just stop?? ' Are you able to put your self in the place of a young Palestinian who is in the middle of a war? Who can not move in or out of his city? In order to see both sides of this conflict you need to put your self into both places. Imagine being a terrified witness to a suicide bomber AS WELL as being a terrified witness to your people being killed by tanks from Israel.
Just tell me you can..

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
. What you suggest is like asking me to go and live in France (no offense Powerdoc ) because our queen offended Russia and they want our land in return. Or you to live in England because US is given back to the Indians.

.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Anyway you are wellcome Anders

To be more serious , the situation is becoming worse and worse.)

The Palestinians hate the jews, even if the terrorist are a minority. there is an evil circle as you have discribe : terrorist kill jews, retaliations from Israel, more hate among the palestinians and therefore the terrorist becoming more popular ----&gt; more terrorism ...

Is there is somebody on earth who have a solution to break this evil circle of violence and pain ?

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

heheh... ya Steeve. You should listen to Nick You really should be watching the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). &lt;insert sarcasm&gt; Or better yet, watch the BBC. &lt;insert sarcasm&gt; Theyre a great source of unbiased coverage.

The CBC had so much experience of sugar coating shit; it's a fine art to them. In just a couple of months theyll have you believing that black is white, and white is black. But most importantly, you'll be saying: wow, Canada is the greatest country on Earth. Were so much better than those Americans. heheh.

But that's ok. Most Canadians eventually see through this crap. Some take longer than others.


mika.

[ 03-30-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>heheh... ya Steeve. You should listen to Nick You really should be watching the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). &lt;insert sarcasm&gt; Or better yet, watch the BBC. &lt;insert sarcasm&gt; Theyre a great source of unbiased coverage.

The CBC had so much experience of sugar coating shit; it's a fine art to them. In just a couple of months theyll have you believing that black is white, and white is black. But most importantly, you'll be saying: wow, Canada is the greatest country on Earth. Were so much better than those Americans. heheh.

But that's ok. Most Canadians eventually see through this crap. Some take longer than others.


mika.

[ 03-30-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

The CBC says none of that shit you just said. They don't say Canadians are better than Americans, but then how would you know, if you're in Israel how would you be able to watch CBC? Well, I'm in Canada, so I do watch the CBC so I know for a fact.

Now about this violence, it better end soon, cuz i might be going to Israel this summer and I don't want it to be more dangerous than it has to be.

[ 03-30-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by thentro:
<strong>
I wonder, can you stretch your self to see only a little bit ( even just hypothetical) why the Palestinians are angry?? Your story makes it seem like all of Israel is just like one big episode of "Father Knows Best" and those 'darn Palestinians are throwin rocks again! Why dont they just stop?? ' Are you able to put your self in the place of a young Palestinian who is in the middle of a war? Who can not move in or out of his city? In order to see both sides of this conflict you need to put your self into both places. Imagine being a terrified witness to a suicide bomber AS WELL as being a terrified witness to your people being killed by tanks from Israel.
Just tell me you can..</strong><hr></blockquote>

If I was a young Palestinian witnessing some of my people killing innocent civillians and see Israeli reprisals, I'd want to know why that was going on. Maybe I'd ask one the martyrs-to-be and ask him why he does it.

He will either tell me that all Jews must die because they are evil Zionists or he might tell me they are trying and "force them" to recognize a Palestinian state.

Then I would say, "But the Israelies won't stop retaliating and won't negotiate until you guys stop the suicide bombings."

Then I'd hopefully understand why those Israeli tanks are moving in. Oh but wait, I might not, as I've been instructed from the time I was born to hate Jews and the only good Jew is a dead Jew.

I would have read much of this bullshit from textbooks paid for by the European Union and donated to the Palestinians. PA radio and TV along with Yasser Arafat do more brainwashing.

So thats what the Palestinian would be thinking, if one could think unless he or she had been brainwashed (like most are) from birth only to think murdering civilians is fine.

[ 03-30-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>

The brainwash is equal on both sides. Right now we hear only about the Jihad and hamas, a few years back it was all about the jewish extreemist.
Remember <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-12/30/118l-123099-idx.html" target="_blank">Baruch Goldstein</a> and <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/may99/amir14.htm" target="_blank">Yigal Amir</a>?

[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>heheh... ya Steeve. You should listen to Nick You really should be watching the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). &lt;insert sarcasm&gt; Or better yet, watch the BBC. &lt;insert sarcasm&gt; Theyre a great source of unbiased coverage. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually bud, CNN is my primary news network. The difference is, I don't watch a 5-minute propagandist segment of it and then reproduce it in the form of a post. Frankly, I have been quite impressed with the recent coverage on CNN.

CNN is not bad. It just takes alittle longer to get the point (like the US ) I feal it is best taken with some other news as well.

here are some good ones.

<a href="http://www.palestinechronicle.com/" target="_blank">http://www.palestinechronicle.com/</a>


<a href="http://www.jpost.com/" target="_blank">http://www.jpost.com/</a>

<a href="http://www.palestinedaily.com/" target="_blank">http://www.palestinedaily.com/</a>

<a href="http://www.israelnationalnews.com/" target="_blank">http://www.israelnationalnews.com/</a>

<a href="http://www.palestine-pmc.com/first.html" target="_blank">http://www.palestine-pmc.com/first.html</a> &lt;-- This one is dead now <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

<a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/" target="_blank">http://www.haaretzdaily.com/</a>

Can others add to my list? I like jpost and the palestinechronicle the best. All of the above (maby not palestinedaily.com as it is just world news about palestine) have some hash things to say however. Take each with a some bias...

Can others post web pages? I want some more good palestine reporting now that I lost one <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[quote]Originally posted by Nick:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> dude, you watch way too much CNN.

BTW, explain to me how destroying his compound and cutting-off all the phone lines allows him to arrest and punish the terrorists?</strong><hr></blockquote>

He can't arrest and punish the terrorists-they work for him!......................................

Heres a solution-

Take all the Jews in the settlements in the West Bank and bring them back into Israel. Take all the palestinians in Gaza and send them to the West Bank. Declare Gaza to be part of Israel and the West Bank to be Palestine. Prevent any Palestinians from entering Israel by military closing off the West Bank.

There-a Palestinian State and an Israel that can be protected. If the Palestinians don't go for it-then Israel should just do it anyway, by force.............................

So we've got Arafat and Sharon, two terrorists, trying to broker a peace deal? I'm so shocked it's not working out.

Israel should pull out of occupied territories and return Palestinian territory to Palestinians. Until then, they will be attacked by terrorists.

If these bombers really won't be satisfied until Israel is destroyed, then we can move forward from there, but until that point all of this "they want to push Israel into the ocean" rhetoric is just justification for maintaining the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>If the arabs are the sole agressors, why is the death rate 1 israeli to 5 palestinians?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because they are on the losing side. They've lost. They picked a fight with a force that they can't win against. Like the US vs. Taliban/Al Queda.

How could the death toll in and of itself tell you anything about which side is right or wrong?

[quote]Originally posted by Nick:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> dude, you watch way too much CNN.

BTW, explain to me how destroying his compound and cutting-off all the phone lines allows him to arrest and punish the terrorists?</strong><hr></blockquote>

But Arafat is the terrorist. Always has been always will be. He's a murderer that needs to stand trial in the US for his roll in the kidnap and murder of US diplomats. He should be executed in the US for his crimes against our citizens.

Or are we still pretending that Arafat is not a terrorist?

[quote]But Arafat is the terrorist.<hr></blockquote>

He can't or won't do anything about the terrorism and Sharon yields to it, while still not taking any decisive action on the Palestinian 'leadership', which encourages the terrorism to continue, because it works. While that's lovely enough, my fear is that Israel refuses to take decisive action because they are afraid of what is coming next. Heh, let's see who comes along after Arafat.

Which is better? The devil you know or the devil you don't know?

i am going to go ahead now and say that i know i will get flamed for this, but it is what i believe. Success is cruelty. the only way either of these countries can really bring peace, is for one of them to disappear. i am not for people dying, but unfortunatly that is how you get things done. i hate saying it but fear is much easier to gain than respect. i know someone will tell me about mlk jr. or ghandi, and the to fight without violence, but it doesn't work for everything.

what i am saying is that israel does not want palastinians there, and vice versa. people can not be blind to what israel is doing, what palestine is doing, and how america, and other countries are reacting and supporting the massacres.

many of you should pay attention to the saying don't believe everything you see. actualy think about what is going on. i was very disturbed by someone who earlier said that israel was accidently killing innocent people, and even more so by who ever thought that freedom of the press actually means you get correct information. out of curiosity did any of you know that the f-117 stealth fighter has been not invisible to radar for 6 years now. and russia has had their own version of the f-22 for 14 years. in the us you have a free press, but you can't report what you don't know. many people do not know what is going on israel. so many people buy into he is my buddy or he is my enemy because your great grand daddy shot my great grand daddy. &lt;&lt;---- exaggeration.
in all reality the people of the world should just step back.

if i haven't pissed anyone off yet i gues this is where i start. let them duke it out. no help, no interference. The us should stop giving anyone in the world who is fighting someone america is annoyed with weapons. other countries should back off too. when people are forced to try to make peace by other people who are not involved it makes them made at the arbitrators. when a country as money oriented and as rich as the us for example stop trying to help it will allow people to put on their true faces.

think about it, when you were young did tell your parents that the 5 dollars they gave for lunch money went to lunch and a comic book. my point is that if israel or palastine are trying to impress the us or jordan or anyone than they will show them something they like. the problem is we, the world corrupt each other. many people put on acts to make other people think better of them so that they can accomplish whatever it is that they want, like make up and dating.

the problem is we cant back out, because we dont others to think that we are inhuman, or uncivilized, or maybe even unafraid.


i know this was confusing but just argue points, i also concede i have no specifics, mainly because there is always someone who knows more and will be offended for leaving a "key" piece out of a story.

if you want to really get a hold of me my email is myahmac@mac.com

myahmac, your views are not that radical compared to some things said here and around the world realy. I my self thought that at one point (several years ago) all out war was the best answer. But it would not be a war, it would be a genocide. I think a misunderstanding in the world is that Israel and Palestine are negotiating as equals. Palestine is under daly occupation and humiliation from the Israeli government. Israel is negotiating with a dog to let it run around the yard (and maby get to keep that piece over by the fence).

Israel is working from a stance of fear (a fear not all that unfounded) that Israel will lose its right to exist. But rather then consolidating what they have, they have expanded into sensitive regions with settlements that pose more threat to Israel then the Palestinians do. To day ha'aretz daily news is reporting that 375 reservists have refused to serve in the territories saying that this was "the war for the peace of the settlements." The settlers want all Arabs as far away as possible not matter how it is done. They call them Dogs, and less-than-human-pigs.
Yes war is what they want, because a war for them would be a genocide of the Palestinian people and all the land they want.

PS
myahmac, read those news pages I have above for a better picture of the conflicts day-to-day events.