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Violence in Israel/Palestine - Page 6

post #201 of 762
Israel can live side by side with the Paletinians. The problem is the Arab world cannot stand the jews and wants them dead. This latest violence seems to be coming with strong backing of Iran. The entire Arab world is funding Arafat the terrorist so he can kill jews.

What's Israel to do. Die?
post #202 of 762
This just in...

<a href="http://apnews.excite.com/article/20020331/D7IJHEJ01.html" target="_blank">Suicide Blast in Israel Kills 12</a>

"Haifa is one of the few places in Israel where Arabs and Jews live in
the same neighborhoods, and the city has prided itself in its atmosphere
of coexistence. The Matza restaurant is Arab-owned, and several Arabs
were apparently among the victims
. It marked the second time in recent
weeks that a suicide bomber did not hesitate to blow himself up in an
area where Arabs were also present."

Well, that's just great. They blow up their own "oppressed" people in the process. Fantastic. Stroke of genius. Total, blind, religious fanaticism at it's worst. They will probably destroy themselves in the final process...fine...I won't expound my thoughts about all this stupidity...it is all about the 'ol time religions...and most people here know my stance on that.

Politically though, removing Afafat-ass is the first step towards a new turn on things. He's been like that "Crazy Uncle" nobody talks to at family dinners, but put up with anyway with his idiotic rantings at the table...
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post #203 of 762
From Thomas Friedman, the reporter who initiated the story about the Saudi peace deal.

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/opinion/31FRIE.html" target="_blank">Link here.</a>

[quote]The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of "desperation" stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their "desperate" occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance, Ã* la Gandhi. A nonviolent Palestinian movement appealing to the conscience of the Israeli silent majority would have delivered a Palestinian state 30 years ago, but they have rejected that strategy, too.<hr></blockquote>
post #204 of 762
[quote]The entire Arab world is funding Arafat the terrorist so he can kill jews.<hr></blockquote>

I think you'd see much worse with meaningful funding.

[quote]What's Israel to do. Die?<hr></blockquote>

I'm beginning to think that the alternatives aren't so great either. Removing Arafat could mean a full scale war against the Arab world and all the fanatics therein. Israel is not in a good position there.

Arafat is probably too difficult to negotiate with, and Sharon probably wouldn't want to negotiate with him anyway. Keeping Arafat around and making half-hearted attempts at peace that stall upon terrorist attacks will encourage terrorism as it's been happening lately, since the point - besides killing a few Jews - is to stall peace talks. It works.

[quote]Politically though, removing Afafat-ass is the first step towards a new turn on things.<hr></blockquote>

From what I have heard, the younger generation may be much worse. They have been steeped in fanaticism since day one. I'm starting to think that if Arafat can't be bargained with, simply getting rid of him will bring worse things. An all out war on what's left of Palestine would be hell for Israel too. Hell for both sides, really.

[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: Mac The Fork ]</p>
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post #205 of 762
[quote] nonviolent resistance, Ã* la Gandhi.<hr></blockquote>

Nonviolent resistance worked so well in India because is was after WWII (England was not about to fight another war) and India had the leverage of a massive working class and raw materials to work with. Same in South Africa where a boycott was worth something. I still think it has value however in Palestine and is under used.

Also, the settlers of Israel are also taught from birth to be fanatics and hate all Palestinians too, this is not a one sided thing by any means no matter how the conservitives want to spin it.
post #206 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>The problem is the Arab world cannot stand the jews and wants them dead. This latest violence seems to be coming with strong backing of Iran. The entire Arab world is funding Arafat the terrorist so he can kill jews.

What's Israel to do. Die?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think the problem is that extremists like yourself do not want to believe that most Arabs want peace. You enjoy thinking that all Arabs hate America and Jews. Why do we let a few asses who decide to blow up innocent Isrealis destroy the peace process? Is it because people like you would rather have Arab terrorists to kill than Arab allies?
post #207 of 762
[quote]I think the problem is that extremists like yourself do not want to believe that most Arabs want peace. <hr></blockquote>

He's not and extremist
post #208 of 762
Yes, he is, (or at least his language is extreem...)

There is one thing you have to understand about Arafat. He has not risen to become leader of the PLO with sweettalk. He is a hard, determind man, who has forced the many fractions of the PLO into the fold.
These fractions are not under his control, but they still regard him as the palestinian leader because he has not made deals that they cannot accept.

His mandate from the PLO members (and the palestinian people), is not to make concessions to Isreal. He will not give up on the refugees, Jerusalem or the settlements. We might not agree, but thats how it is... Sharon is in many ways the same. His government relies on parties on the extreeem right. They are firmly against any idea of removing the settlements, and any palestinian state. Sharon has for many years been the foremost speaker and protector of the Settlers... When Arafat walked away from the peace at Camp David it was because he knew he couldn't sell this peace to his people, especially the hardliners.
Gandhi wouldn't have lasted 5 minuttes with his message in this climate. There are several israeli non-violence activist currently beeing detaind by the IDF for trynig to enter Arafats compund...
(a funny sidenote: Look what happend to Jesus, he had a pretty simmilar message. The political climate was much the same... There was an occupation going on back then as well. These are people who are brought up on "an eye for an eye" and not "turn the other cheek"...)
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post #209 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Nick:
<strong>

I think the problem is that extremists like yourself do not want to believe that most Arabs want peace. You enjoy thinking that all Arabs hate America and Jews. Why do we let a few asses who decide to blow up innocent Isrealis destroy the peace process? Is it because people like you would rather have Arab terrorists to kill than Arab allies?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are amazingly naive. Its not a few people blowing themselves up. The Palestinians rally in the streets everytime they do it. Its supported publicly by almost every palestinian. Its hard to talk peace with lunatics................................
post #210 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>When Arafat walked away from the peace at Camp David it was because he knew he couldn't sell this peace to his people, especially the hardliners.
Gandhi wouldn't have lasted 5 minuttes with his message in this climate.</strong><hr></blockquote>So the question is, why can't he sell peace to his people, and why wouldn't Gandhi last in this climate?

Maybe it's because their leaders aren't leading them in that direction?

Arafat gives Arabic language speeches about how the suicide bombers are great martyrs, the Arab League invites Hamas.

Which comes first, the leaders, or the people?
post #211 of 762
One thing Gandhi understood is that there can not be peace without dignity and self-respect.
The peace will have to be so good, that there would be no use for continued fighting. As it is right now the people who want to remove the settlements and the checkpoints are fighting side by side with the people who want to destroy Israel. What I would like to see is the extremist on both sides isolated from the more moderat (and far larger) forces.
Right now they are beeing driven together.

Gandhi wouldn't last because his methods apealed to the morality of the parties and the world opinion.
I don't feel there is much morality left, and the world opinion has been disregarded for decades...
Unlike in Tianimin Square, these tanks don't stop. Gandhi would probably have been run over...

First, some morality has to be brought back. The move is all Sharons. He has the power to break of the from the path of violence. The palestinians are in a tight corner, they will only turn more extreem if pressed further. Moderat voices have no meaning when the water and power has been cut, and the sodiers are walking door to door...

Why isn't this obvious? There will be more suicide bombings... every day... Its the only option left that has effect...

BTW, do you have some real Arafat quotes?
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post #212 of 762
One more thing; You as for a palestinian Gandhi:
Here you go: <a href="http://www.hcef.org/foundation/people/advisory/mawad.html" target="_blank">Dr. Mubarak Awad</a>, who was expelled from East Jerusalem by Israel, because he advocated a non-violent civil revolt.

Here are some more names on Islam and nonviolence, just to show that this is actually not a non-existing field: (I copied the text, and edited a bit):
There exists a world wide network of leading Muslim intellectuals and a very substantial body of literature on Islamic nonviolence and peacemaking practices. Some of the best teachers, scholars, and trainers who have developed curricula in this area are the following:

Dr. Karim Crow, Professor, Islamic Philosophy, ISTAC, Malaysia. He is the Director of the Islam and Peace program for Nonviolence International. He conducts seminars in Arabic on peaceful Islamic action. He founded the Islamic Peace Forum.

Nagasura T. Madale, The leading Muslim practitioner of nonviolence in Mindanao, The Philippines, where there has been a great deal of fighting since the 1970s. He started many Muslim-Christian dialogues and peace schools, a resource center and a consortium of NGOs and universities for peace. The most famous scholar on nonviolence and Islam in the world.

Dr. Mubarak Awad, founder of Nonviolence International. Sometimes called the Palestinian Gandhi. Most famous Palestinian leader of nonviolence. (Mentioned above)

Dr. George Irani, (Lebanese American) Professor of International Studies George Washington College.

Dr. Mohammed Abu Nimer, Professor of Peace and Conflict Studies, The American University, Washington DC

Dr. Amr Abdullah, Professor of Conflict Analysis and Resolution, George Mason University, Fairfax.

Dr. Mary King, a leading participant of the American civil rights movement, specialist on nonviolence during the Palestinian "intifida", Director of the Graduate Program in Peace, Human Rights and Development, University of St. George in Grenada. She is author of Mahatama Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. The Power of Nonviolent Action (Paris: UNESCO Press).

Finally, the United States Institute of Peace has funded a study on Islam and peace.

[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #213 of 762
NEW, you sound like a 12 year old who cant admit hes wrong. Your selective morality is astonishing. But there is no moral equivalency between Israel and the Arabs in this conflict. There never was and never will be. Your attempts to somehow equate the two sides just detract from any argument you try to make. As long as the Arabs hate the Israelis more than they love their children, frankly, they will always be considered as sub par compared the rest of humanity. Sending teen-age girls on a suicide rampages just underscored this point. Israeli mothers just cant understand how any mother can send her little child into a combat zone. The Arabs like to complain about little kids getting injured by bullets. But what the hell are little children doing in an armed combat situation. They did this in Beirut, they did this in the 80s, and theyre doing it now.

The Arabs refuse to resettle their population among their vast territory, and finally end this stupidity. But there needs to be a population transfer between Israel and the Arab states. India and Pakistan almost solved their problem this way. And I wouldnt be surprised if again this solution will be applied in Kashmir to solve the conflict between them. The Europeans did similar things after WWII with the Germans, among others. And you can draw a direct legal parallel between the Germans in the Sudetenlands, and the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza.

Moreover, there were about a million Israelis (Jews) from Arab countries that were transferred to Israel from various Arab states in the early days of the state. There is no reason why this cant be applied to the Arabs illegally living in Israel. Israel needs to transfer them back to their own countries.

Also, this is not a religious conflict like some like to point out. Even their Koran speaks of this land belonging to the Jews. They recognize both Moses and Abraham. The Arab dictators have used hate of Israel and the West to deflect from their own incompetence on domestic issues. This might not have been particularly troublesome to the Americans and other powers in the past, but the longer this continues, the more dangerous it is. Biological and chemical weapons are already common in the region. And its only a matter of time before Iran and Iraq go nuclear.


mika.
post #214 of 762
Illegally living in Israel? How so?
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post #215 of 762
Either israel or palestine will cease to exist soon. The question is what world do you want to live in; the one with an Israel state or the one with a palestine state.

A year ago I had a lot of respect for the Islamic world. Today it's non-existant. The ironic thing is that in the last 6 months I've learned alot about the REAL islamic world than I knew in the last 25 years. Lying and back-stabbing is the order of the day there i guess.
post #216 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Mac The Fork:
<strong>Illegally living in Israel? How so?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought I answered that already.... "And you can draw a direct legal parallel between the Germans in the Sudetenlands, and the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza."


mika.
post #217 of 762
That doesn't answer my question. I'd like to see how you draw the parallel.
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post #218 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>NEW, you sound like a 12 year old who cant admit hes wrong. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I could have said the same thing about you you sound like somebody who has been brainwashed by his parents or something, just like your buddy steve666.

[quote]<strong>As long as the Arabs hate the Israelis more than they love their children, frankly, they will always be considered as sub par compared the rest of humanity. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Sub-par? Are you telling me an *ARAB* is sub-par because of their skin color or something? Because thats what an Arab is, you know someone from an area of central Asia with dark skin.

I might respond to that remark with some respect if you were at least talking about Palestinians. At least then you could categorize them in some concrete way, but still, that is an awfully gross generalization.

[quote]<strong>Sending teen-age girls on a suicide rampages just underscored this point. Israeli mothers just cant understand how any mother can send her little child into a combat zone.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thats propaganda b.s, dude. Very, very, very few Palestinian mothers likely send their daughters to blow themselves up. In fact, I never saw any report that the recent 18 year-old suicide bomber did anything against her own will. Its pretty arrogant of you to make such a statement against Palestinian mothers. If anyone is forcing these girls to do this it is the extremist groups but no, you must put a wild spin on your argument by accusing mothers of setting there children up with bombs and sending them off to Israel.

[quote]<strong>The Arabs like to complain about little kids getting injured by bullets. But what the hell are little children doing in an armed combat situation.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because we all know the walk to school involves assult rifle fire...

[quote]<strong>The Europeans did similar things after WWII with the Germans, among others. And you can draw a direct legal parallel between the Germans in the Sudetenlands, and the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dont you just love to compare the Arabs to the Germans of the WWII era... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[quote]<strong>Biological and chemical weapons are already common in the region. And its only a matter of time before Iran and Iraq go nuclear.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Notice: I am 110% opposed to Iraqs nuclear endeavors.

But... Wasnt ISRAEL the country developing biological weapons that would kill Arabs but not Jews? LOL! How idiotic.

<a href="http://www.mideastfacts.com/ethno_bomb.html" target="_blank">http://www.mideastfacts.com/ethno_bomb.html</a>
post #219 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by Mac The Fork:
<strong>That doesn't answer my question. I'd like to see how you draw the parallel.</strong><hr></blockquote>

On 29th September, 1938, Adolf Hitler, Neville Chamberlain, Edouard Daladier and Benito Mussolini sign the Munich Agreement which transfers the Sudetenland to Germany. Hitler marches into the Sudetenland on 1st October, 1938 - under the pretext of liberating the ethnic Germans there. As this area contained nearly all Czechoslovakia's mountain fortifications, Czechoslovakia is no longer able to defend herself against Hitler. And a little later, in March 1939, the whole of Czechoslovakia comes under the control of the Nazis.

On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly pass a resolution to transfer historic Jewish lands in the then British Mandate to Arab control. The area transferred is again a mountainous area, leaving the Jewish population extremely vulnerable to attack(s). Jews are allocated just a fraction of their historic lands. With the British set to leave their Mandate on the 15th May, 1948, the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt, with the help of local Arabs in Judea Samaria, that same day invade the remaining Jewish portion (then called Israel) - under the pretext of liberating it from the Jews. The invasion, heralded by an Egyptian air attack on Tel Aviv, is vigorously resisted by Israel, using arms purchased in Czechoslovakia among other places.

As we all well know, the Nazis were finally defeated in 1945. The Czechs regarded the Sudeten Germans as a fifth column who greeted Hitler with open arms when he seized the Sudetenland after the Munich Agreement of 1938. By 1945, there was an overwhelming urge for retribution for German aggression and atrocities. Czechoslovakia decided to forever rid of its ethnic German population. Three million Sudeten Germans were transferred to Bavaria and other German states at the end of that war.

In June, 1967, the armies of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt in Judea Samaria and Gaza, were finally defeated. Many Israelis such as myself, regard the Arabs in Judea Samaria and Gaza as a fifth column, who like the Germans that greeted Hitler with open arms when he seized the Sudete, greeted the invading armies of the Arabs in 1947 with open arms.

Therefore I would like them removed. For obvious reasons (OIL), I understand the need to be a bit more patient. So the transfer of the Arabs out of Judea Samaria and Gaza, is yet to be written in the history books.


mika.

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #220 of 762
Well, looks like I touched a nerve there, Nick.

Quote:
Sub-par? Are you telling me an *ARAB* is sub-par because of their skin color or something? Because thats what an Arab is, you know someone from an area of central Asia with dark skin.

If thats what in your eyes constitutes an Arab, then you are truly ignorant. No one here is talking about race or skin color. To be an Arab, has everything to do with culture, religion, and ethnicity. But maybe youre more ignorant then I gave you credit for.

Quote:
Thats propaganda b.s, dude

Really?! Why dont you check back on the news reels and see who exactly was confronting the IDF in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. I'd say about 50% were children. But I guess you havent been watching the news for the last 20 years.

Quote:
Dont you just love to compare the Arabs to the Germans of the WWII

Read their papers. (Maybe Scott can refresh your memory ). Watch their news. Heck, borrow their schoolbooks - paid for by our European friends here. Although my original comparison was wholly different, both comparisons with the Nazis are quite legitimate.


mika.

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #221 of 762
As a side note:

From 1947 to 1967 the lands of Judea Samaria and Gaza were under total Arab control. Why wasnt a Palestianian state created then? Think about that.

You were upset Nick, that I didnt refer to the Arabs in these areas as Palestinians. This is because there is no such thing as a Palestinian. There never was. You can go back thousands of years. You'll never find it. This is modern invention by Arab propagandists. I read the history books Nick. I know what Im talking about.


mika.

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #222 of 762
[quote] As long as the Arabs hate the Israelis more than they love their children, frankly, they will always be considered as sub par compared the rest of humanity. <hr></blockquote>

You are the one talking about the german Nazis? What does thos retoric sound like?
Need a clue?

[quote]The Arabs refuse to resettle their population among their vast territory, and finally end this stupidity.<hr></blockquote>

You talk of these people like they were a herd of sheep. These are different nations with different cultures.

[quote]Also, this is not a religious conflict like some like to point out. Even their Koran speaks of this land belonging to the Jews.<hr></blockquote>

religion and land... The Koran, Torah and Bible doesn't decide who has the right to any land. neither does the fact that your forefathers used to live there 2000 years ago...

[quote] They recognize both Moses and Abraham. <hr></blockquote>

They don't just "recognize" them. They see them as their forefathers, just like the jews... You know that the jews and the arabs have common forefathers, right?

[quote] On 29th September, 1938, Adolf Hitler, Neville Chamberlain, Edouard Daladier and Benito Mussolini sign the Munich Agreement which transfers the Sudetenland to Germany. Hitler marches into the Sudetenland on 1st October, 1938 - under the pretext of liberating the ethnic Germans there. As this area contained nearly all Czechoslovakia's mountain fortifications, Czechoslovakia is no longer able to defend herself against Hitler. And a little later, in March 1939, the whole of Czechoslovakia comes under the control of the Nazis.

On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly pass a resolution to transfer historic Jewish lands in the then British Mandate to Arab control. The area transferred is again a mountainous area, leaving the Jewish population extremely vulnerable to attack(s). Jews are allocated just a fraction of their historic lands. With the British set to leave their Mandate on the 15th May, 1948, the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt, with the help of local Arabs in Judea Samaria, that same day invade the remaining Jewish portion (then called Israel) of the British Mandate - under the pretext of liberating it from the Jews. The invasion, heralded by an Egyptian air attack on Tel Aviv, is vigorously resisted by Israel, using arms purchased in Czechoslovakia among other places. <hr></blockquote>

well firstly palestine wasn't controlled by jews when it was transferd to arab control. so the simillarities stops right there. Your "parallel" does little more than "hint" that all of the arab states are the same as the german nazis. When your friend Herzl talked about Isreal, his dream was was a "waste" territory, streatching
covering a lot of syria and jordan as well... And as a sidenote, You know of course that Czechoslovakia is now splitt into two countries. One for the Czechs and one for the Slovaks...

[quote] Three million Sudeten Germans were transferred to Bavaria and other German states at the end of that war. For obvious reasons (OIL), the Jews need to be a bit more patient. So the transfer of the Arabs out of Judea Samaria and Gaza, is yet to be written in the history books. <hr></blockquote>

I think most people don't think the transfer of the Sudeten Germans was "just"... But still Your picture doesn't work because most of the arabs have been living in Palestine longer than their Israeli counterparts. If anyone is practicing the policy of "lebensraum" here it is the israeli settlers... You talk of the conflict as if the arabs are occupying Isreael, and not the other way around. One could use your logic in the opposit direction, and say that it is Israeli policies that are simmilar to Germany in 1938. You probably want Sinai back too?

[quote]borrow their schoolbooks...<hr></blockquote>
I've seen some of the schoolbooks used in the settlements. They don't even mention palestine or the palestinians... Like they never existed....

[quote] You were upset Nick, that I didnt refer to the Arabs in these areas as Palestinians. This is because there is no such thing as a Palestinian. There never was. You can go back thousands of years. You'll never find it. This is modern invention by Arab propagandists. I read the history books Nick. I know what Im talking about.
<hr></blockquote>

The britts callled it Palestine...

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #223 of 762
quote:
You probably want Sinai back too?

Yes. And everything else the Arabs with the help of the British stole from us. This includes considerable parts of what today is Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt.
Guess who's occupying whose land now?

quote:
firstly palestine wasn't controlled by jews when it was transferd to arab control.

No. It was controled by the Brits... Who won it from the Turks... who won it from... who won it from... who won it from the JEWS.

quote:
They don't just "recognize" them. They see them as their forefathers, just like the jews... You know that the jews and the arabs have common forefathers, right?

You'll need to clue me in as to how the Arabs are related to Moses. But according to your logic, all of Arabia therefore belongs to us. Gee, thanks New. Ok boys, let's go get that oil. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />


mika.

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #224 of 762
quote:
Your picture doesn't work because most of the arabs have been living in Palestine longer than their Israeli counterparts.

Weve gone through that argument already. If youve been to that area youd know thats not true. And there are plenty of references to show that. Mark Twain comes to mind. And like I said before - look at the houses. They are not more than 50 years old.
The Turks pretty much emptied that land of inhabitants during their rein when they cut down all the wood in that area. It wasnt until the Zionist movement began, and as they started to bring back life to the land, that that area became populated again. As more Jews populated that land, more Arabs arrived due to the increased economic viability of the area. The same process is still ongoing today. Just recently I read that 50,000 from Jordan alone infiltrated into Israel in the last few months. All working illegally. And I know we have many more Egyptian, and Morrocan, and you just name them.


quote:
... The Koran, Torah and Bible doesn't decide who has the right to any land. neither does the fact that your forefathers used to live there 2000 years ago...

So what does decide? I still didn't get an answer to that question. A bunch of European imperialist thieves decide? Like the British? As a favor to the Arabs for helping them defeat the Turks?


mika.

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #225 of 762
That's a pretty interesting point? Yes who DOES decide who gets what land? Huh? I always thought it was the guys with the bigger guns. The brithish took it from the Native Americans, Americans took it from the british, Americans took more from the Natives, Spanish and Portuguese took it from South American Natives, and lets not even mention Europes relations with Africa. If Israel is willing to fight for what's theirs then.... let them fight it out. This has been going on since the beginning of time. Who's to stop it now. It's just amazing the amount of anti-semitism around here, but if you look at the source it's not surprising. I guess you can blame it on the midievel christian church that started the jew hating campaign centuries ago. Or Hitler's Germany just decades ago. Or the Islamic world just recently... I think I just like sticking up for the underdog.
post #226 of 762
Suicide Bombing Is Contagious
LA Times

By RANAN R. LURIE
Ranan R. Lurie, a senior adjunct fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, is a syndicated columnist and political cartoonist.

March 15 2002

By early 1937, German generals unveiled with pride to Hitler their new dive bomber and Panzer tank. "We wish that we could have tested them in real combat," exclaimed one concerned but proud field marshal. Hitler raised his eyebrow and asked his officer, "Why don't you send these beautiful machines to the battleground in Spain to help our fascist friend Gen. Franco?"

The generals did. Germany's planes proved themselves on the battlefields of Spain. The same planes, with improvements resulting from battle experience, devastated Poland in 1939. The Third Reich's new tanks, enhanced and perfected after their Spanish combat practice, invaded in hours and demolished the lowlands of Holland and Belgium.

England and France refused to face what Hitler was writing on the Spanish wall, although the Nazi planes were tearing up the blue Iberian skies with cannon fire and Nazi attack tanks had bulldozed Madrid to the ground. Something similar is happening now in Israel, which is serving as the Spanish testing ground for future attacks on Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Washington, London and even Moscow. Should the suicide bomber--the new secret human tool of terror--prove to be a successful, unchallenged weapon, there will be plenty of fanatics ready to take trips to the United States, Britain or France.

There they will join their cells already planted in those countries, pick up their explosives belts and create the same devastation and panic that we have seen so often in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

In comparison with a chemical or nuclear device, this weapon is much less complicated: It consists of a functioning brainwashed true believer who has deluded himself into thinking that if he blows himself up and kills as many infidels around him as possible, Allah will bestow the favors of no less than 72 virgins awaiting him in Islamic heaven.

To sweeten the deal, Iraq's Saddam Hussein will grant the surviving families at least $10,000, according to the Israeli press. This is a win-win for the suicide bomber.

Meanwhile, the West will suffer the deaths of innocent civilians, experience economic chaos and expose itself to constant blackmailing.

If the suicide terrorists succeed and bring Israel to its knees, the West is likely to be next in line. The intent and hope of the suicide-bombing industry is to force the infidel Christian in the West to see the light of the real God (Allah) and surrender to demands by any terrorist group. With luck and determination, so they think, the West may even convert to the Islamic faith (Libya's Moammar Kadafi actually brought up this option in the mid-1970s).

There is almost no way to stop determined suicidal maniacs. All they need is a passport and a plane ticket. Simple explosives are readily available at any demolition site or big construction company.

I said "almost" because there is a way to stop this nightmare: The international community must recognize that Israel is the new Spain. The West, along with the United Nations, must understand that the horrifying suicide bombings that are being tested right now in the Middle East can hit any country, sooner or later.

The world community, led by the U.S., should immediately declare that this kind of warfare is as illegitimate as nerve gas or mustard gas. Any organization that supports and sends suicide bombers into action should be held responsible by the world community. It should destroy those groups with fury, once and for all.

If we do not defend our civilization against assassins who are almost at our doors, our children and grandchildren will be at the mercy of certified lunatics.
post #227 of 762
I suggest leveling the entire Middle East and making it into one big parking lot. ........... with a mall. ............ And maybe an amusement park.

LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!!!!
post #228 of 762
Here's something to think about:

Who's more dangerous?

Israel: Has a country and a solid government... it maybe a flawed country, and it may be a flawed government, but they have EVERYTHING to lose.

Palestine: Doesn't have a country but wants one, has a leader that is calling on everyone being a martyr for the sake of the PLO...they have NOTHING to lose...

whose more dangerous? the man who was everything to lose, or the man who has nothing to lose?
Anal Retentive,
Passive Aggressive,
Band Geek...

Don't Touch Me
Reply
Anal Retentive,
Passive Aggressive,
Band Geek...

Don't Touch Me
Reply
post #229 of 762
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>To be an Arab, has everything to do with culture, religion, and ethnicity. But maybe youre more ignorant then I gave you credit for.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ar·ab n
a member of a Semitic Arabic-speaking people who live throughout North Africa and the Middle East
post #230 of 762
[quote] No. It was controled by the Brits... Who won it from the Turks... who won it from... who won it from... who won it from the JEWS. <hr></blockquote>

And the jews won it from...?

[quote] Yes. And everything else the Arabs with the help of the British stole from us. This includes considerable parts of what today is Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt.
Guess who's occupying whose land now? <hr></blockquote>

Well, there we are. Lebensraum. Case closed...

[quote]You'll need to clue me in as to how the Arabs are related to Moses.<hr></blockquote>

I was reffering to Abraham... Sorry if I wasn't clear enough...

[quote]And like I said before - look at the houses. They are not more than 50 years old.
The Turks pretty much emptied that land of inhabitants during their rein when they cut down all the wood in that area. It wasnt until the Zionist movement began, and as they started to bring back life to the land, that that area became populated again. As more Jews populated that land, more Arabs arrived due to the increased economic viability of the area. The same process is still ongoing today.<hr></blockquote>

Well, someone has been feeding you lies, sorry to tell you. Go watch Lawrence of Arabia.

Here are some number I dug up:

In 1968, Jewish historian Maxime Rodinson wrote that

"the Arab population of Palestine was native in all the usual senses of the word" (Rodinson, M., Israel and the Arabs, Penguin, 1968, p. 216).

Estimated Population of Palestine 1870-1946

Arabs (%) Jews (%) Total

1870 367,224 (98%) 7,000 (2%) 375,000
1893 469,000 (98%) 10,000 (2%) 497,000
1912 525,000 (93%) 40,000 (6%) 565,000
1920 542,000 (90%) 61,000 (10%) 603,000
1925 598,000 (83%) 120,000 (17%) 719,000
1930 763,000 (82%) 165,000 (18%) 928,000
1935 886,000 (71%) 355,000 (29%) 1,241,000
1940 1,014,000 (69%) 463,000 (31%) 1,478,000
1946 1,237,000 (65%) 608,000 (35%) 1,845,000

[quote] Ar·ab n
a member of a Semitic Arabic-speaking people who live throughout North Africa and the Middle East <hr></blockquote>

The arabs are destinct people. If you call a turk or an Iranian an arab, he'll get insulted...

[quote] So what does decide? I still didn't get an answer to that question. A bunch of European imperialist thieves decide? Like the British? As a favor to the Arabs for helping them defeat the Turks? <hr></blockquote>

The UN decieds, Isreal needs to stop ignoring UN resolutions... The have to date ignored more resolutions than Iraq...

[quote] England and France refused to face what Hitler was writing on the Spanish wall, although the Nazi planes were tearing up the blue Iberian skies with cannon fire and Nazi attack tanks had bulldozed Madrid to the ground. Something similar is happening now in Israel, which is serving as the Spanish testing ground for future attacks on Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Washington, London and even Moscow. Should the suicide bomber--the new secret human tool of terror--prove to be a successful, unchallenged weapon, there will be plenty of fanatics ready to take trips to the United States, Britain or France. <hr></blockquote>

You're paranoid. period.

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: New ]

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #231 of 762
What kind of answer is "go watch Lawrence of Arabia"? I was under the impression that was a fanciful movie, not a documentary.
post #232 of 762
It gives a good picture of arab culture under the Ottoman/turk rule... It also shows some of the motivation (and problems) behind the arab national movement...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #233 of 762
I haven't seen the movie but isn't a little like saying American cowboy movies are an accurate depiction of what really was the situation in the old West?
post #234 of 762
Well it's not national geographic, I wouldn't regard it as a "true" picture of what the middleeast was like. But it is a nice story. It's worth seeing when discussing if the arabs are "one people", if there was population before the zionists. If they had national feeling. And the role of the british...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #235 of 762
Hey, I saw Disney's "Aladdin," so I know all about the Middle East.

Actually Lawrence of Arabia IS a fantastic movie - one of the best.
post #236 of 762
quote:
Should the suicide bomber--the new secret human tool of terror--prove to be a successful, unchallenged weapon, there will be plenty of fanatics ready to take trips to the to the United States, Britain or France.

The scary part is that they don't need to take that trip. They are already there.


mika.

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #237 of 762
quote:
Here are the facts:

In 1968, Jewish historian Maxime Rodinson wrote that

"the Arab population of Palestine was native in all the usual senses of the word" (Rodinson, M., Israel and the Arabs, Penguin, 1968, p. 216).

Estimated Population of Palestine 1870-1946

Arabs (%) Jews (%) Total

1870 367,224 (98%) 7,000 (2%) 375,000
1893 469,000 (98%) 10,000 (2%) 497,000
1912 525,000 (93%) 40,000 (6%) 565,000
1920 542,000 (90%) 61,000 (10%) 603,000
1925 598,000 (83%) 120,000 (17%) 719,000
1930 763,000 (82%) 165,000 (18%) 928,000
1935 886,000 (71%) 355,000 (29%) 1,241,000
1940 1,014,000 (69%) 463,000 (31%) 1,478,000
1946 1,237,000 (65%) 608,000 (35%) 1,845,000


I like how you dress these numbers as "facts" and then write "Estimated Population of Palestine 1870-1946". Your estimated IQ is ? Is that a fact ?


mika.
post #238 of 762
[quote]Hey, I saw Disney's "Aladdin," so I know all about the Middle East... <hr></blockquote>

LOL Would Disney have made Aladdin now?

This <a href="http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0795/9507018.htm" target="_blank">article on Israeli state discrimination</a> I stumbled over gives an interesting read. I can't confirm any of it but its still worth reading.


Against International law, all journalist are now banned from Ramallah...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #239 of 762
[quote] Your estimated IQ is ? Is that a fact ? <hr></blockquote>

Why don't you attack my arguments, and not my english...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #240 of 762
quote:
I always thought it was the guys with the bigger guns.

It is. Only they're quite comfortable right now and so decided the game of musical chairs is now over. Well, at least til the next world war. Should be due any day now.


mika.
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