Violence in Israel/Palestine - Page 2

[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Half-breeds like you we can do without. </strong><hr></blockquote>Hmm. where did I hear that before?

Oh yeah. I remember now. In nazi Germany they had ranks for different kinds of Jews: Real Jews, Bastards of first, second and third degree.

[quote]<strong>And what exactly did I miss about them Europeans and their history towards the Jewish people that you care to enlighten me with?</strong><hr></blockquote>

What do that have to do with me personally? Am I guilty of having large parts of my family being killed during WWII in concentration camps? Do you believe we inherit the sins of our fathers? The former hate between Christians and Jews was fueled by the claim that the Jews killed Jesus and you hate us (aka. the europeans born after WWII) because of what happened to the Jews during times when we were not born? I frequently participate in huge demonstrations against neo-nazis, racism and fascism but then again according to you I´m just a bastard. Look out time may actually be circular despite what your religion tells you.

But okay tell me exactly what we in Denmark have done against jews (if you know what Denmark is)

[quote]<strong>The whole European history is drenched in one murderous action on top of another. There arent enough trees in the world to make enough paper so as to catalog all their monstrous and vile actions towards the Jews. And not one single nation in Europe can escape this truth as it concerns it and the Jews under its protection.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And they don´t try to. Ever been to the Jewish museum in Berlin? If not you might consider going there to see what "europeans" feel about what they have done against the Jews.

And since you practically have said that you are in fact from Israel: I´m glad to say that luckily your rhetoric is not the general impression I have of the people of Israel. Most of them can actually think and reflect and don´t have their heads stuck in a very dark place. Even among those who voted for Sharon I can conduct a normal conversation and still not be blamed for all the wrong done to the Jews. You belong to a minority of the Israeli population and thank God/Jahve/Allah/Mother nature/the laws of physics for that. Or else there would be no hope for the Middle East.

[quote]<strong>Just dont kid yourself the anti-Israeli propaganda they feed you in Europe (e.g. BBC, etc.) is anti-Semitic in its intent and content and delivery, and is not much different from the kind of shit the Nazis and their sympathizers pulled back in the 20s and 30s.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can only laugh at claims like that. As long as you don´t use examples you are talking shit. Come with examples and let us discuss it.

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>

Are you for real?!?


] Why do you insist on defending the Anglo/French conspiracy to award Lands belonging to the Jewish nation to the Arabs Empire? This is a dirty deal between imperialist thieves, which I would think you already know all about and would oppose, being the righteous fellow that you claim to be.

] And how many Danish officials do you know that offered help to the Jewish/Israeli underground to provide a safe sea passage to go to Israel during or prior to the war? How many Danish Visas has the Danish government offered to Jewish refugees trying to escape Nazi barbarism? I know Japan, and China, and Sweden, and Russia among others, did. How about Denmark? How many Jewish refugees were offered escape from their deportation to the death camps from Vichi France into Denmark?

] And I wouldnt be laughing at the anti-Israeli propaganda if were you. Its going to bite you sooner or later. I would question why it is going on, both in terms of its intent and in terms of delivery. Why is it that they are so obsessed with Israel? No other conflicts going on in the world? Why is it that almost always, important facts seem to not to be mentioned that would reflect favorably on Israel. Why is it that even the language used in the coverage is identical to that used by Arab propagandist? Why is it that all their camera people are Arab nationals? Why dont they mention that even the satellites used to transmit their propaganda is Arab owned and controlled?

] Lastly, I think you are wrong. Yes, Israel has a strong and very vocal radial leftist elite, which at this time happens to control the Israeli media. However, if you consider that about 20% of Israel is Arab, I think its clear to see that among the Zionist Jewish population in Israel the right has a 70% majority. Its only a matter of time before all these half hearted police actions by PM Ariel Sharon are going to be called, and a more effective policy will take hold. They are already talking about erecting a fence. This will go a long way towards solving many of the problems. Simply put, it will starve the Arab population occupying Judea Samaria and Gaza from its economic base in Israel, and will force them to move back to their countries. As is it, Israel already has 50,000 illegal workers just from Jordan alone.


Mika.

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>

WOW Scott, forgive me.

You are freekin' moderate compared to this guy! :eek:

He has enough hate to go blow him self up in a Palestinian preschool! <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[quote] if you consider that about 20% of Israel is Arab <hr></blockquote>

Can they vote? (or are they to dumb to write or comprehend democracy)

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: thentro ]</p>

Yea I know. I stopped posting in this thread. I'm firmly anti-terrorist and there for anti-arafat and I'm not behind the Palestinians while they gleefully support this stuff including cheering in the street after 9-11 and I even think some have an idiotic position on all of this and say so but .... I never called anyone a half breed

Unless I did?

Its actually good that this fellow has posted because he reveals real extremes in Israel that are verbally racist and expansionist and would stop at nothing to reclaim what they say is theirs . . . . from over a thousand years ago . . .

... just think if American Indians started gathering tanks and had an atom bomb and used this kind of talk . . .

Ah but PC&gt; killa would probably say we deserve it.

Anyway, I know many French people who helped Jews in the war, my aunt, who was in the Resistance was one of them and one of my best friend's whole family was kept safe in a French home. . . you sir...oops, I wouldn't say that.. are a racist pig

Lets just be clear about who the French really are. A quick summery of very recent history

This is the nation that double-crossed its allies in the 40s during world war II. This is the nation that sold Israel defective armor during the 50s at outrageous prices. This is the nation that later promised Israel a nuclear plant (in the 50s) and then backed away half way through its construction, leaving Israel scrambling to finish the job using its native engineers and scientists. This is the nation that backed out of military operations in Sinai (1956) half way during implementation. This is the nation that later again, broke its promise in the 60s and refused to re-supply Israel with spare parts to its air force, forcing Israel to build its own plane (Kfir). This is the nation that conspired to champion the cause of Islamic radicals in the 70s in exchange for business contracts and immunity from their terror. This is the nation that in the 80s transferred nuclear know how to Saddam Hussien of Iraq. This is the nation of a$$-fu&lt;kers, that today leads the anti-American and anti-Israeli crusade in the European Union. Only this time, it's so that they can go to bed with the Iotollahs in Iran.

So you Arab/French sympathizer, keep wallowing in Arab filth. You seem to like that. I know all too well that you French are the real pigs.


mika.

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Are you for real?!? </strong><hr></blockquote>

You better believe it.

[quote]<strong>Why do you insist on defending the Anglo/French conspiracy to award Lands belonging to the Jewish nation to the Arabs Empire? This is a dirty deal between imperialist thieves, which I would think you already know all about and would oppose, being the righteous fellow that you claim to be.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I know all about the land occupied by Israel and that Israel realize that it have to give back to those who have the right to it at one point. You can´t start to imagine how funny it is that you use the word "imperialist" to describe the efforts to give back the land occupied by Israel to its rightful owners.

[quote]<strong>And how many Danish officials do you know that offered help to the Jewish/Israeli underground to provide a safe sea passage to go to Israel during or prior to the war? How many Danish Visas has the Danish government offered to Jewish refugees trying to escape Nazi barbarism? I know Japan, and China, and Sweden, and Russia among others, did. How about Denmark? How many Jewish refugees were offered escape from their deportation to the death camps from Vichi France into Denmark?</strong><hr></blockquote>

This make me doubt that you in fact IS in Israel. I never met a jew that didn´t know the story about Denmark during WWII. How ignorant can you be? You are insulting Jews everywhere with spewing out this kind of bullshit.

Since you obviously lack the ability to look up information on your own hand let me take you to school: Denmark was occupied by Germany in 40´ and we gave up relatively quick. But until 43´ the civil part of the society was governed by danish authorities and no one was deported or civil rights taken from them. For instance we refused to single out Jews with visible sign on their clothes or in their papers. In 43´ things changed. Germany pressured for more concessions but the danish government wouldn´t concede and stepped down. At the same time Germany started deporting Jews from occupied countries and when we learned about it here in Denmark a huge rescue mission started. 7220 (plus relatives) was rescued to neutral Sweden by fisher boats over three weeks time. Out of a population of 8000 Jews 51 died in concentration camps. I think that was the lowest ratio of any occupied country.

[quote]<strong>And I wouldnt be laughing at the anti-Israeli propaganda if were you. Its going to bite you sooner or later. I would question why it is going on, both in terms of its intent and in terms of delivery. Why is it that they are so obsessed with Israel? No other conflicts going on in the world? Why is it that almost always, important facts seem to not to be mentioned that would reflect favorably on Israel. Why is it that even the language used in the coverage is identical to that used by Arab propagandist? Why is it that all their camera people are Arab nationals? Why dont they mention that even the satellites used to transmit their propaganda is Arab owned and controlled?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You got it all wrong. I´m laughing at you, not the media. see?: You -&gt; <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> &lt;- Me. You STILL don´t provide examples to back up your claims.

You ask why the media is so occupied with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Would you rather have that we closed our eyes and didn´t see what happened?

[quote]<strong>Lastly, I think you are wrong. Yes, Israel has a strong and very vocal radial leftist elite, which at this time happens to control the Israeli media. However, if you consider that about 20% of Israel is Arab, I think its clear to see that among the Zionist Jewish population in Israel the right has a 70% majority.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So in short: According to you you have a first and second class citizenship and the votes of the arab population shouldn´t really be counted in, stripping them from their civil rights? Again: When did I hear about that the last time?

[quote]<strong>Its only a matter of time before all these half hearted police actions by PM Ariel Sharon are going to be called, and a more effective policy will take hold. They are already talking about erecting a fence. This will go a long way towards solving many of the problems. Simply put, it will starve the Arab population occupying Judea Samaria and Gaza from its economic base in Israel, and will force them to move back to their countries. As is it, Israel already has 50,000 illegal workers just from Jordan alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Your lack of compassion is astonishing.

Try looking into the economy of Israel a bit more. Without the underclass work force from the occupied areas its economy is suffering big time.

[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Lets just be clear about who the French really are. A quick summery of very recent history

This is the nation that double-crossed its allies in the 40s during world war II. This is the nation that sold Israel defective armor during the 50s at outrageous prices. This is the nation that later promised Israel a nuclear plant (in the 50s) and then backed away half way through its construction, leaving Israel scrambling to finish the job using its native engineers and scientists. This is the nation that backed out of military operations in Sinai (1956) half way during implementation. This is the nation that later again, broke its promise in the 60s and refused to re-supply Israel with spare parts to its air force, forcing Israel to build its own plane (Kfir). This is the nation that conspired to champion the cause of Islamic radicals in the 70s in exchange for business contracts and immunity from their terror. This is the nation that in the 80s transferred nuclear know how to Saddam Hussien of Iraq. This is the nation of a$$-fu&lt;kers, that today leads the anti-American and anti-Israeli crusade in the European Union. Only this time, it's so that they can go to bed with the Iotollahs in Iran.

So you Arab/French sympathizer, keep wallowing in Arab filth. You seem to like that. I know all too well that you French are the real pigs.


mika.

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Paranoia lead to nowhere.

hey Arab^KILLA,
are you of the school a good arab is a dead arab?

Listen Anders, Ill be the first to admit that my knowledge concerning your precious Denmark is next to nil. Although I was aware of the actions taken by Danish fisherman to temporarily transfer Danish Jews into Sweden. But thats not what Ive asked you. Read my question again and see if you can answer me. I dont really want to discuss what some righteous private citizens did to save Jews in this or that European country during the War. Heck, even the Germans managed to save a few thousand Jews living in Berlin, right under Hitlers nose.

Anyway, its quite obvious youve already made up your mind on this issue regardless of the false claims by others to our land. Im trying to tell you that these people that now like to call themselves Palestinians in reality are ex-Jordanians, ex-Syrians, ex-Egyptians. All these people already have their own lands and should not be allowed to occupy the Lands of Judea Samaria and Gaza. Particularly since they represent a strategic threat to the state of Israel. And just to underscore my point, Id like to bring to your attention, that Arafat himself is in fact an Egyptian agent, born and educated in Egypt.

The Arab propaganda is very strong and they have many resources at their disposal, which Israel can never even hope to match. Its very hard to fight them because their lies have been repeated so often, they now are taken for conventional wisdom. But go to the history books and find out for yourself who for example, represented Palestine in the Olympics prior to the creation of the modern state of Israel. I can assure you it wasnt Arabs.

I also want to strongly disagree with you with regards to the illegal Arab labor flooding Israel. Disregarding the obvious security issues, and social problems this creates, though Israeli contractors might temporarily benefit from this, the reality is that in the long run, this is extremely detrimental to the Israeli economy. Not only are they putting native tax paying Israeli workers out of work and therefore reducing consumer demand and tax revenues, but the money paid to these workers is money lost from circulating in the Israeli economy. Simply put, this represents a flight of capital from the Israeli economy. I already made the political consequences of this clear in my previous post. Again, and in very crude terms: basically what Israel is doing by providing them with employment, is providing oxygen to the cancer that will kill it.


mika.

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>

[quote] Anyway, its quite obvious youve already made up your mind on this issue regardless of the false claims by others to our land. <hr></blockquote>

Well, you've probably done more damage than good to your own cause here at these boards ...

[quote] Im trying to tell you that these people that now like to call themselves Palestinians in reality are ex-Jordanians, ex-Syrians, ex-Egyptians. All these people already have their own lands and should not be allowed to occupy the Lands of Judea Samaria and Gaza. Particularly since they represent a strategic threat to the state of Israel. <hr></blockquote>

uhh... like the ex-US, ex-Russian, ex-Ethiopien, ex-Polish that currently run the most capable army in the area? there was nobody living there then...?

[quote] the reality is that in the long run, this is extremely detrimental to the Israeli economy. Not only are they putting native tax paying Israeli workers out of work and therefore reducing consumer demand and tax revenues, but the money paid to these workers is money lost from circulating in the Israeli economy. <hr></blockquote>

Good point, <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> -You probably don't think the US gains from using cheap mexican labor either then? You don't know the first thing about economics. Why do you think NIKE makes it's shoes in Asia, and APPLE it's imac in Taiwan!?!

I bet you don't even live in Israel... me thinks your a US jewish extremist... They are always the worst...

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>

Re: you've probably done more damage than good to your own cause here

Heheh. Right! Thats a good one! Since when did you become so concerned for the good of my cause. Thats a real funny one!


mika.

Thank you for listing negatives for both. A clarification. Since 1948, it has been Israel. Please don't call it Palestine. That directly makes you sound like a Palestinian. Neither side is perfect. The Palestinians are jerks for blowing themselves and tons of innocent Israelis up and the Israeli government is a wreck. The last time an Israeli delegation came to the US, they sent two different people with 2 different solutions. Not much cooperation. The Palestians don't want peace. They blow up innocent people. The Israelis only kill the people responsible for planning these deadly attacks. Unfortunately, there have been significant innocent deaths, but they all have been an accident. The Palestinians always "want" to have talks, but whenever the Israelis be push overs and give them everything they want, all of a sudden they want more. The Palestians "argue" that Israelis are destroying their homes and stuff but the only homes they are destroying are vacant. Palestians bus people into these empty houses to give the illusion on video that people are being forced to relocate. The world hasn't seen this good of propoganda since Hitler and Goebbles. There isn't a peaceful solution in the mideast. Israel has just as much legitimacy in going after Arafat and his followers as the US does in getting Bin Laden, but no one is complaining about what we are doing? All out war is the only possible solution.

Whenever there has been a cease fire, the Israelis have obeyed it and the terrorists have taken advantage of their vulnerability and killed again.

Sharon is a jerk, but I don't see how you can't be a jerk when dealing with Arafat. You either be a wussy like Barak or a bully like Sharon. Both types are jerks.

I'd have more venting, but I did most of it at MacNN already.

[quote]Originally posted by iDude:
<strong>...

I'd have more venting, but I did most of it at MacNN already.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So ah I went back and had a look at MacNN Lounge. I can see the anti-american bigots are all still there. "We hate the US. It sucks. Prove us wrong". Reminded me why I left.

[quote] A clarification. Since 1948, it has been Israel. Please don't call it Palestine. <hr></blockquote>

Inventing history as we go along, huh?
The land was split in to two parts... One part became Isreal, the other was supposed to be Palestine...

[quote]The Israelis only kill the people responsible for planning these deadly attac <hr></blockquote>

Right, If that only was true...

[quote] Palestians bus people into these empty houses to give the illusion on video that people are being forced to relocate. <hr></blockquote>

Are you serious? The only empty houses in the whole area are in the settlements... exept for the ruins of course...

[quote] All out war is the only possible solution. <hr></blockquote>

no comment...

1. I'm not inventing history. The Arabs repeatedly declared war and Israel won every time. Over those wars, Israel won all the land given to "Palestine." You're right that technically it hasn't all been Israel since 1948, but as of TODAY, it is Israel, not Palestine.

2. If you read my post, you'd see that I did say that there have been significant innocent deaths. They are all accidents though.

3. I don't know about the territories. All I KNOW is that when you see Palestinians crying about how the Israelis have destroyed their homes, it's all a sham.

4. My opinion is that all out war is the only solution. I hope and pray that there will be a peaceful resolution, but I don't see it.

[quote]Originally posted by iDude:
<strong>1. I'm not inventing history. The Arabs repeatedly declared war and Israel won every time. Over those wars, Israel won all the land given to "Palestine." You're right that technically it hasn't all been Israel since 1948, but as of TODAY, it is Israel, not Palestine.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thats a deal. Give the occupied areas to Israel and make those who live there (people who lived there or in 48´ Israel all their lifes and generations before them) civil rights.

[quote]<strong>2. If you read my post, you'd see that I did say that there have been significant innocent deaths. They are all accidents though.</strong><hr></blockquote>

:confused: Do the word "accident" have two distinct different meanings in english?

Just the other day Israeli military attacked a Red Halfmoon ambulance with rockets while transporting wounded to the hospital. They didn´t claim it an accident but told that it was used for transporting weapons. Red Halfmoon asked for any proof. Israel has not given any. Thats just the latest example...

[quote]<strong>3. I don't know about the territories. All I KNOW is that when you see Palestinians crying about how the Israelis have destroyed their homes, it's all a sham.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is one courageous claim. Pretty easy when being 10000 miles away. Have you ever been to the occupied territories?

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>

Palestinians are treated better in Israel than any Arab in ANY Arab country in the world! Ever wonder why there is a large Arab population living in Israel and why they have never sought to leave? Israel is the most maligned victor nation on earth even though it is constantly trying to return land even though they don't have to. I don't recall the US giving back land to Mexico(although having lived in smelLA for 6 years ir sure seemed like we gave part of it back.

[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>Palestinians are treated better in Israel than any Arab in ANY Arab country in the world! </strong><hr></blockquote>

Even if this is right its still beside the point. Palestinians are living in the land they were born. They are not Saudies living in another country. They are deprived of the rights other people that live on the land Israel controls.

In Apartheid South Africa blacks probably had it better than most (if not all) other Africans. But still it was an most unacceptable situation. They couldn´t vote, had restrictions on what jobs they could have. Couldn´t go certain places, could only live in certain areas. That is frightening close to the conditions in Israel.

Look. We can't allow terrorism to rule the day. We can't allow this to become a method to gain one's objetive. That's why we must reject Arafat and his "leadership". Terrorism can't win.

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

That is one courageous claim. Pretty easy when being 10000 miles away. Have you ever been to the occupied territories?

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


I haven't been to any of the territories, but I have been to Israel (last year). The group I went with went through some of these towns they are demolising. The houses were, at that point, empty and falling apart. A cardboard box would probably be a better home. In addition to that, I read numerous websites and subscribe to 5 Israel newsgroups.

I believe the Israelis. I'll admit that the ambulance could've just had wounded people, but considering their past record, I believe them. They intercepted a boat full of ammo on the way to Arafat. They have found bomb shelters and missiles and other weapons. They have showed proof for all the other things, so It doesn't much bother me that they don't have proof for one. I'm sure the U.S. has imprisoned many Muslims here that have no ties to terrorists.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Look. We can't allow terrorism to rule the day. We can't allow this to become a method to gain one's objetive.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. Only one thing is equal to terrorism and thats state terrorism. When states target random individuals in an attempt to get what you want you are no better than those "civilians" who do the same.

Demolishing houses because they are in villages where terror attacks into Israel were planned is state terrorism. Demolishing houses for the sole reason that those who live inside them are in family with (dead suicide-)terrorists is state terrorism.

Look here. I may sound like I am anti-Israel in this discussion. I am not. When I discuss thing like this with my friends I am told that I am pro-Israel because I defend Israels right to target the terrorists my friends see as freedom fighters, defend the pre-67 boarders aso. I dislike terrorism from the palestinian side just like I dislike it from Israel. But the attitude here is so pro-Israel here and I read outrageous claims that I have to take the osition I am.

[quote]Originally posted by iDude:
<strong>

I haven't been to any of the territories, but I have been to Israel (last year). The group I went with went through some of these towns they are demolising. The houses were, at that point, empty and falling apart. A cardboard box would probably be a better home. In addition to that, I read numerous websites and subscribe to 5 Israel newsgroups.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It must have been different houses. The houses Israel demolished were not falling apart. They were visible inhabited.

[quote]<strong>I believe the Israelis. I'll admit that the ambulance could've just had wounded people, but considering their past record, I believe them. </strong><hr></blockquote>

By them I assume (or rather hope) you mean Red Crescent (I falsely called them "red half moon" before). I have NEVER heard of any incident where they have used their status for anything like what Israel is claiming. They are as clean as the Red Cross.

[quote]<strong>They intercepted a boat full of ammo on the way to Arafat. They have found bomb shelters and missiles and other weapons. They have showed proof for all the other things, so It doesn't much bother me that they don't have proof for one. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Did Red Crescent smuggle the weapons? I have never heard of this. You do not differentiate between the two in your post. Do you really believe that all palestinians are the same, terrorists and weapon smugglers?

[quote]<strong>I'm sure the U.S. has imprisoned many Muslims here that have no ties to terrorists.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Did US throw a couple of hand grenades into the prison where they kept those unconvicted people?

Wafa Idris was Red Crescent. You managed to "clean" her up fairly quicky didn't you Anders. Only took you a couple of weeks.


mika.

[quote] I haven't been to any of the territories, but I have been to Israel (last year). The group I went with went through some of these towns they are demolishing. The houses were, at that point, empty and falling apart. A cardboard box would probably be a better home. In addition to that, I read numerous websites and subscribe to 5 Israel newsgroups.
<hr></blockquote>

Yea after they had been shelled, shot, and burned <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

Even on American news they show perfectly good lived in houses being smashed by dozers.

I also read Israel's news papers AND palestinian papers (3 and 3) plus American and European media. Getting you info from the press in Israel is so one sided I could not believe it. No mention of the palestinian kids or ambulances or int. national press or hospitals getting shot at. Just "32 Palestinians dead"

I'm sure they are different houses. They obviously weren't going to take us into the really bad areas. It wouldn't be safe. I agree that the red cresent is PROBABLY pretty clean. The thing that bugs me though is the 70 or so Magen David Adom (Israeli "red cross") ambulances that have been destroyed. I wouldn't be suprised if they were smugling in weapons. Of course killing people is worse than imprisoning them, but the same fact remains true that they have no conclusive evidence but it was just precautionary.

Here are a couple of links for those who care to become better informed as to what really is presented to them in the "news" and what is not. I hope you gain better perspective and stop parroting the same old lines the puppet masters feed you.

1] <a href="http://world.std.com/~camera/" target="_blank">http://world.std.com/~camera/</a>
2] <a href="http://www.debka.com/" target="_blank">http://www.debka.com/</a>


mika.

Heres another web site I come across that deals with what the media leaves out when they report on the Israeli conflict

] <a href="http://honestreporting.com" target="_blank">http://honestreporting.com</a>

Anyway, Im sure there are plenty of others. The question is why is it that they play down or dont report completely on facts relevant to the issues, and that reflect favorably on Israel. Is it for cheap ratings? Is it that they already decided whom the good and bad guys are, and facts that dont fit the profile get left out. Maybe. But I think its more subtle than that. I think the real underlying answer can be found in the history books. Its a case of basic predatory instincts. And the only way to put an end to it, is to stop being the prey and start becoming the predator.


mika.

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Wafa Idris was Red Crescent.</strong><hr></blockquote>

She was? Interesting. I always thought Red Crescent was a organization and not a person

[quote]<strong>You managed to "clean" her up fairly quicky didn't you Anders. Only took you a couple of weeks. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I have no intention on defending terrorists. But she wasn´t acting as a Red Crescent worker when she blew herself up. She didn´t use her status or used Red Crescent ambulances to help her do her act. There is no connection between her and Red Crescent when she did what she did.

Did you know that more than one Red Cross worker has later been convicted as murderers? Does that mean its okay to shoot at Red Cross workers when doing their job of helping wounded in wars?

Just curious when exactly did our land become theirs? Whats the history of their claim to our lands? How did these Arabs acquire these lands? That is, how exactly did it come to their possession? And when? Id really like to know your take on this.

Also, you say you have been there Anders, and seen their settlements with your own eyes. How old did most of their homes look to you? From what Ive seen, the vast majority of the buildings there are not older than 50 years.


mika.

[quote] Just curious when exactly did our land become theirs? Whats the history of their claim to our lands? How did these Arabs acquire these lands? That is, how exactly did it come to their possession? And when? Id really like to know your take on this. <hr></blockquote>

Are you serious? the arabs are the decendents of Abraham, just like the jews. There where several tribes you know... Their history in the middle-east goes as far back as the jewish... The real difference is that they have been there since then, while most isrealis (not all!) have a fairly recent arrival in Israel... (last 50 years),,,

[quote]I'm not inventing history. The Arabs repeatedly declared war and Israel won every time. Over those wars, Israel won all the land given to "Palestine." You're right that technically it hasn't all been Israel since 1948, but as of TODAY, it is Israel, not Palestine. <hr></blockquote>

You are inventing History... Isreal started both the six day war (1967), and invaded lebanon in 1982... what about golan? now a part of Isreal?



When a site has to call itself "honestreporting" it speaks for itself...

[quote] If you read my post, you'd see that I did say that there have been significant innocent deaths. They are all accidents though. <hr></blockquote>

Here's an accident for you:




Sorry...

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>

With Israel hating media like the NYT against it how does Israel stand a chance to get fair shake in any of the liberal bias newspapers in the US or Europe?



Regarding your picture on page A5 of the Israeli soldier and the Palestinian on the Temple Mount -- that Palestinian is actually my son, Tuvia Grossman, a Jewish student from Chicago. He, and two of his friends, were pulled from their taxicab while traveling in Jerusalem, by a mob of Palestinian Arabs, and were severely beaten and stabbed.

That picture could not have been taken on the Temple Mount because there are no gas stations on the Temple Mount and certainly none with Hebrew lettering, like the one clearly seen behind the Israeli soldier attempting to protect my son from the mob.

<a href="http://www.HonestReporting.com/followup/01_tuvia.asp" target="_blank">http://www.HonestReporting.com/followup/01_tuvia.asp</a>

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>

Here's what Israel is up against. Someone tell me again how this is about land/"occupation" not anti-semitic hatred rampant throughout the backwards and corrupt muslim/arab world?


<a href="http://memri.org/news.html#1016041265" target="_blank">Posted: Wednesday, March 13, 2002
Special Dispatch No. 354: Saudi Government Daily: Jews Use Teenagers' Blood for 'Purim' Pastries</a>

[quote]In an article published by the Saudi government daily Al-Riyadh, columnist Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam, wrote on "The Jewish Holiday of Purim." Following are excerpts of the article:

Special Ingredient For Jewish Holidays is Human Blood From Non-Jewish Youth

"I chose to [speak] about the Jewish holiday of Purim, because it is connected to the month of March. This holiday has some dangerous customs that will, no doubt, horrify you, and I apologize if any reader is harmed because of this."

"During this holiday, the Jew must prepare very special pastries, the filling of which is not only costly and rare - it cannot be found at all on the local and international markets."

"Unfortunately, this filling cannot be left out, or substituted with any alternative serving the same purpose. For this holiday, the Jewish people must obtain human blood so that their clerics can prepare the holiday pastries. In other words, the practice cannot be carried out as required if human blood is not spilled!!"<hr></blockquote>

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>

yes thats crazy but so are the papers from Israel. Some of the editorials are as insane as ARAB^KILLA over here. In a war, both sides info becomes distorted and one sided.

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: thentro ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by thentro:
<strong>yes thats crazy but so are the papers from Israel. Some of the editorials are as insane as ARAB^KILLA over here. In a war, both sides info becomes distorted and one sided.

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: thentro ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

More of the "both sides do it" crap. Are government run papers doing it? Isn't there also this thing called "freedom of the press" there to counter that whack jobs. Like we have here in the US.

Hey, the Saudi government is US ally, right?

&gt;You are inventing History... Isreal started both the six day war (1967), and invaded lebanon in 1982... what about golan? now a part of Isreal?&lt;

Now YOU are inventing history. Israel struck a preemptive attack because the Arabs were planning an invasion. Its called being intelligent and protecting your country. Open your eyes..................

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Hey, the Saudi government is US ally, right? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Good article from the March 18, 2002 issue of The New Yorker - not terribly hopeful though

COMMENT

<a href="http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/?020318ta_talk_remnick" target="_blank">IN A DARK TIME</a>

Issue of 2002-03-18
Posted 2002-03-11

[quote]In 1988, a left-wing Israeli historian and journalist named Benny Morris published "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949," which challenged the traditional Zionist view that the problems of the Palestinian Arabs were entirely of their own making. The book demonstrated that the Palestinians had neither ordered themselves off their land wholesale nor abandoned it voluntarily in hopes of a triumphant and bloody return; on the contrary, they had left their homes in Jaffa and Tiberias, West Jerusalem and Haifa in the hundreds of thousands mostly because they were driven out of them in wartime. The founding of Israel, like that of the United States, was a historical victory but it had not been without its original sin.

Morris does not deny that the Palestinians, first in 1937 and again in 1947, adamantly and foolishly rejected internationally sponsored partition plans and then went to war against the Israelis. But his scholarly deconstruction of a founding myth of the state - a myth enshrined in popular history, high-school textbooks, and standard patriotic rhetoric - met with tremendous resistance. After his book appeared, Morris was eventually fired from his job at the Jerusalem Post. He had trouble getting work in the academy. And yet, with time, the "new historiography" that he helped to cultivate was one of many currents, political and moral, as well as intellectual, that led an increasing number of Israelis to question not the Zionist idea of a Jewish homeland but the blinkered, orthodox version of Zionist history. The French philosopher and historian Ernest Renan once wrote that a nation "is a group of people united by a mistaken view about the past and a hatred of its neighbors." Perhaps, but such unity is not immutable. Most Israelis, weary of the onus of occupation, proved ready to rethink the past and live with, if not adore, the Palestinians. Part of what masked the practical perils of the Oslo Accords of 1993 was the seductive notion that for the first time both sides were prepared to recognize each other and live peacefully as neighbors.

As it turned out, while even most conservative Israelis (including Ariel Sharon) conceded that there would, in the end, be a Palestinian state, the Palestinians had not necessarily altered their own founding myths and intentions. Forget Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their culture of martyrdom and absolute victory. Last year, Faisal Husseini, a decided moderate among Yasir Arafat's leadership ranks, gave an interview not long before he died in which he compared Oslo to a Trojan horse, an intermediate, tactical step leading to the elimination of Israel. He said, "If you are asking me as a Pan-Arab nationalist what are the Palestinian borders according to the higher strategy, I will immediately reply: 'From the river to the sea' " - that is, from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.

Right-wingers in Israel have long argued that such remarks reflect the true faith of the Palestinian mainstream. Hope was the reserve of the left. Now, it seems, there is not much hope left, and not much of a left, either - not in the short term, anyway. What is the evidence? A fairly indicative event was the publication in the London Guardian, a few weeks ago, of "Peace? No Chance," an essay by the same Benny Morris, in which he sheepishly concedes that Arafat's rejection of the Israeli and American peace plans in 2000 and the intifada that has raged for a year and a half have left him feeling "a bit like one of those western fellow travelers rudely awakened by the trundle of Russian tanks crashing through Budapest in 1956." ...<hr></blockquote>

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>