Originally Posted by tonton
There is nowhere in the United States where policies of the Left are being implemented without some sort of watering down by the right.
To find the example you're looking for, you have to look at... here it comes... Europe.
(waits for the response, "but... but... but... Europe isn't all that great! Look at [one of the least Socialist of all European States--but you'll deny that] Greece! And you'll point to some report from a Libertarian think tank that says that Scandinavian States are heading toward collapse...)
Yes, I've heard it all before, and it's just as much of a lie now as it was then.
The best standard of living in the world is constantly found in the most socialist European States.
And yes, I think general standard of living for the average Joe (or Josef) is more important than "wealth".
Actually I've pointed out that France generates 70% of their power from nuclear. I've pointed out that when they implement wind power the NIMBYs seem to quickly lose their fights and things get built. I've noted that several Scandinavian countries have no problem pumping every ounce of oil they can out of the ground and selling it to finance programs that benefit the general populace, and finally I've noted that they have fair trade policies as opposed to merely free trade policies.
Those are the pluses to Europe and we ought to follow their examples there.
There are huge negatives though. The PIIGS of Europe are a lot more than just Greece. It stands for Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain. They all are on unsustainable paths. Much like how many Boomers in the U.S. have created a two tier system whereby they will attempt to get their pensions, sell their houses and 401k's to their broke kids or recent immigrants, and have all these folks pay 75% taxes to fund their promised obligations, Europe has done this as well but the problems are even more stark. Their re-population rate is much lower, averaging about 1.6 kids per couple. Their immigrants being mostly Islamic are harder to assimilate than our growing legions of Hispanic friends and lastly the tiers there are even more strident. I'd say as a last measure since race is understood as color in the U.S. but understood as nationality in Europe that must of the E.U. still easily gets away with actions that would be plainly called racist in the United States and there an eyebrow isn't even raised. The cars just burn each night and no one cares.
Simply ask yourself if we really could do what Europe does and also ask yourself if I've supported it or not.
Fair/Managed trade- I've absolutely supported this.
Ending Pax America- I've absolutely supported this and have several posts before Obama was even elected showing how he would be no different than Bush here because trade and empire are both tied together. I've been 100% right on the actions Obama would take.
Ending radical environmental views that say humans must leave land "pristine" aka untouched by humans rather than the view of conservation and management of resources. I absolutely support this and it is clear the left in the United States doesn't. They don't want nuclear power. They don't want wind or solar in their backyard. They don't even want cell towers. They want a carbon tax that will make energy too expensive to use and thus hope that everyone will stop using it. Their philosophy is "if you don't build it, they won't come." This means no real new infrastructure which is why most of the stimulus went to constituencies rather than shovel projects.
I'm not as opposed to Europe as you might think but we also have to view them as a whole. Europe has not embraced stimulus. They have embraced austerity. Denmark has been cutting back unemployment, not extending it yet again like the United States. France has raised their retirement age.
Obama's requests for them to take on more debt and engage in more government spending were completely shut down. Most recent government elections have tilted more to the right as people realize the math doesn't add up.
I want you to understand that Republicans as a whole are not against common measures. In fact when I visit most "red" states, the public infrastructure there is much nicer than in the "blue" states from my various anecdotal visits. The problem is when people use intentions, then steal and redistribute the money rather than put it to its proper use. You mentioned in the iPhone forum you might be visiting SoCal soon. I think you would be shocked at the state of the infrastructure here compared to our neighbors and we are the supposedly caring and good intentioned ones with higher gas taxes, auto registrations, etc. Meanwhile in Nevada, Arizona and Utah, you can actually drive the freeways and cities without your wheels being ripped off. I'm not saying it is perfect. Nothing ever is, but I'm saying it is better than California.