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How Can One Possibly Support Obama's Economic Policies? - Page 9

post #321 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

All that is fine and dandy (though in my opinion, as a first world nation, we DEFINITELY deserve cheaper medical care as EVERY OTHER FIRST-WORLD NATION ALREADY HAS, and "free market" won't EVER make that happen).

Wrong. But maybe we should give it a try first before declaring it a failure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

He also wants to get rid of every single safety net for the poor or unlucky, cut almost all sources of national revenue, which means we'll have to cut pretty much everything regarding national management, law enforcement, research, defense and maintenance and development of infrastructure.

You are simply wrong that substantial cuts in the federal budget and reducing the federal government to its constitutional limits, would require cutting things like law enforcement and defense.

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post #322 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Isn't Ron Paul the guy who also wants to get rid of the Department of Education in America?

Yes. And soon I hope. One has to wonder why this is such a concern. I mean I know it sounds really evil as if to imply "get rid of the Department of Education in America" is the same as "get rid of education in America." But only someone who is uneducated would fall for that fallacious reasoning. The bottom line is that Ron Paul's position (correctly I might add) is that the Department of Education is in no way, shape or form a responsibility of the federal government. This statement probably applies to more than half and perhaps closer to 80% of what the federal government presently does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I'm pretty sure he's the guy who'd like it if the United States was more like Nigeria than Denmark.

I'm pretty sure that's only your characterization of what his policies would result in.

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post #323 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Of course you have. He's been 4-5 different people here between bans. He's a chorus of one.

I wasn't talking about him.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #324 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

... He wants to cancel all of the regulations that are supposed to protect us from things like mining disasters, oil spills and corporate mismanagement that affects the national economy.

You mean the regulations that resulted in the Upper Big Branch mine disaster, the BP oil spill disaster, corporate mismanagement at Enron, AIG, GM, Goldman, Lehmann... those regulations?

Quote:
Isn't Ron Paul the guy who also wants to get rid of the Department of Education in America?

The DOE that's resulted in the US falling behind Finland, Korea, Canada, Hong Kong, China, Netherlands, Liechtenstein, Japan, Australia, Switzerland, Iceland, New Zealand, Denmark, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Ireland, Sweden, Austria... 28th in the world in math, 29th in problem solving, 18th in literacy... the same DOE that provided your education, perhaps?

Quote:
The free market has worked for elective and cosmetic surgery.

These aren't the only areas of medical care for which the free market "works", it's just the most obvious example of a field not bound up by the demands of insurance companies. The free market "works" every time it's tried.

Free markets require competition. Competition increases efficiency and lowers costs. Consumers love competition. Businesses hate competition. Despite Congress's Constitutional authority to "regulate commerce among the states", they deliberately chose to shut down debate requiring insurance companies to sell their products across state lines, reducing or eliminating competition for their products. Care to guess why?

Whenever government makes insurance compulsory, costs increase. Obamacare makes insurance compulsory. Conclusion...?

Quote:
as a first world nation, we DEFINITELY deserve cheaper medical care as EVERY OTHER FIRST-WORLD NATION ALREADY HAS

Obama intends to make the US a third world nation. Problem solved.

Humor aside, nice sentiment, but demands won't make it so.

Like a man, a country doesn't get what it "deserves". It gets what it can effectively implement by inspiring the people who comprise the nation to solve the problems they're facing, for everyone's mutual benefit. Centralized top-down control has failed to do so for eons. This experiment will fail, as predictably as those that have failed before us.

A government cannot make medical care cheaper by fiat, just as it cannot make itself more prosperous by printing money. As for its other tasks, the DOE has failed to implement quality education, burdensome regulations have failed to prevent cataclysmic economic collapse, Homeland Security has failed to prevent terrorist attacks, the EPA has failed to prevent environmental disasters, and a central bank charged with stimulating economic growth while preventing boom/bust cycles has utterly failed to do so.

Get rid of them. All of them.

---
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/1/63/34002454.pdf
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post #325 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

You mean the regulations that resulted in the Upper Big Branch mine disaster, the BP oil spill disaster, corporate mismanagement at Enron, AIG, GM, Goldman, Lehmann... those regulations?

I mean the regulations that would definitely have stopped all of those things had Republicans (and Clinton) not been furiously deregulating since Reagan.
post #326 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

The DOE that's resulted in the US falling behind Finland, Korea, Canada, Hong Kong, China, Netherlands, Liechtenstein, Japan, Australia, Switzerland, Iceland, New Zealand, Denmark, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Ireland, Sweden, Austria... 28th in the world in math, 29th in problem solving, 18th in literacy... the same DOE that provided your education, perhaps?

Guess what... every single one of those countries and territories you've listed... has a national department overseeing standards of education (and most have outlawed home schooling). The only countries without a national department overseeing education are lower on the list than the US. In which direction on the list do you think the US would go if we privatized curriculum management?
post #327 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

These aren't the only areas of medical care for which the free market "works", it's just the most obvious example of a field not bound up by the demands of insurance companies. The free market "works" every time it's tried.

Show me. Show me one single country with a freer market than the US that has a higher average standard of living. Show me how "free market works every time it's tried".

Quote:
Free markets require competition. Competition increases efficiency and lowers costs. Consumers love competition. Businesses hate competition. Despite Congress's Constitutional authority to "regulate commerce among the states", they deliberately chose to shut down debate requiring insurance companies to sell their products across state lines, reducing or eliminating competition for their products. Care to guess why?

Except when companies are deregulated and able to collude freely, especially in a market where consumers have no choice not to enter into.
Quote:
Whenever government makes insurance compulsory, costs increase. Obamacare makes insurance compulsory. Conclusion...?

Wrong. Why is the US the most expensive place in the world to get insurance? It's not because insurance is compulsory here. Why is it that in countries where insurance is compulsory, the cost of healthcare is far, far cheaper than it is in the US, if what you say is true?
Quote:
Obama intends to make the US a third world nation. Problem solved.

Look at third world nations. Do they have less or more regulation and social policy than the US? Look at countries where the standard of living is higher than the US. Do they have less or more regulation and social policy than the US? There's your answer, unless you're ignorant.
Quote:
Humor aside, nice sentiment, but demands won't make it so.

If that's your sense of humor, um... well... I just have no response.

The rest of your post is just rehashing the same failed arguments. Every time you look at Europe, you find a better situation than the US, THANKS to Socialism. Every time you look at a country that has weak social policy, you see failure. I can't understand how you possibly don't see that.
post #328 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

(and most have outlawed home schooling).

So they have less freedom. Sounds great to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In which direction on the list do you think the US would go if we privatized curriculum management?

Up.

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post #329 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So they have less freedom. Sounds great to me.

I think you missed the part where these places with "less freedom" have higher rated education than the US. Here's the relevant part:

The only countries without a national department overseeing education are lower on the list than the US.
Quote:
Up.

Yeah, that's logical!
post #330 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Show me how "free market works every time it's tried".

Consumer electronics. Computers. Software. Food. Clothing. Housing. These are markets while each to one degree or another does have government regulation and intervention they are all generally substantially lower than in health care.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Wrong. Why is the US the most expensive place in the world to get insurance?

Lack of competition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Why is it that in countries where insurance is compulsory, the cost of healthcare is far, far cheaper than it is in the US, if what you say is true?

It's not. You're being lied to. The cost is simply hidden and disguised or born in other non-monetary ways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Look at third world nations. Do they have less or more regulation and social policy than the US? Look at countries where the standard of living is higher than the US. Do they have less or more regulation and social policy than the US? There's your answer, unless you're ignorant.

If only it were so simplistic. It's not. You're the one who's ignorant on this subject.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I can't understand how you possibly don't see that.

Perhaps because he's looking deeper than the superficial and apparent or proximate causes to the real root causes of things and you're not.

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post #331 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I think you missed the part where these places with "less freedom" have higher rated education than the US. Here's the relevant part:

The only countries without a national department overseeing education are lower on the list than the US.

I think you missed the part in logic class where correlation does not mean causation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, that's logical!

It actually is, but you won't see it because your so confused by the trees you cannot see the forest. This is a common problem among "liberals" (who don't actually like liberty) and "progressives" (who aren't actually advocating policies that will help us progress forward) and socialists such as yourself.

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post #332 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Consumer electronics. Computers. Software. Food. Clothing. Housing. These are markets while each to one degree or another does have government regulation and intervention they are all generally substantially lower than in health care.

And the US is doing so well internationally in those markets against countries with more regulation! Not.
Quote:
Lack of competition.

That would make sense if when you compare the prices in the US to prices in other countries, those other countries with cheaper health care had more competition in the US. Hint: They do not.
Quote:
It's not. You're being lied to. The cost is simply hidden and disguised or born in other non-monetary ways.

Actually, the place where the health care is being "hidden" is only in the profits of insurers and shareholders. To the average Joe on the street, they actually pay FAR less money out of their pocket, including in their taxes, etc. And that's what's important. I don't have to protect the obscene profits of the super-wealthy, at the cost of the man on the street, TYVM.
Quote:
If only it were so simplistic. It's not. You're the one who's ignorant on this subject.

And once again you fail to see the wood for the trees.
Quote:
Perhaps because he's looking deeper than the superficial and apparent or proximate causes to the real root causes of things and you're not.

The real costs of things in the US are inflated because of obscene greed and profits. Period.
post #333 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I think you missed the part in logic class where correlation does not mean causation.

And I think you missed the part in the theory of theory where a theory is just a theory until it's proven. I'm not going to conduct a theoretical experiment in economics in my fucking country when all signs are that it's going to fail. In this way, I'm far more conservative than you, as I will only support policy that has a proven track record. Once again, I'm asking you -- begging you -- to show one example where your theories have been put into practice and worked.
post #334 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And the US is doing so well internationally in those markets against countries with more regulation!

Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That would make sense if when you compare the prices in the US to prices in other countries, those other countries with cheaper health care had more competition in the US. Hint: They do not.

Again, you're being misled by your inability or unwillingness to look beyond the superficial. Try it sometime, you'll be surprised what you learn.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Actually, the place where the health care is being "hidden" is only in the profits of insurers and shareholders.

Right. Do you know what the average profit margins in health care and health insurance are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

To the average Joe on the street, they actually pay FAR less money out of their pocket. And that's what's important.

That's what you see. Again you are missing the part you're not seeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The real cost of things in the US are inflated because of obscene greed and profits. Period.

No. Not "period." You really don't know what you're talking about on this subject. That has become more and more obvious with each post you make on it. Sad really. You could educate and inform yourself beyond your extremely superficial understanding and yet it appears you refuse to. Sad.

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post #335 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I will only support policy that has a proven track record.

All evidence to the contrary I guess.

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post #336 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Right. Do you know what the average profit margins in health care and health insurance are?

Let me guess... a lie?

Or do you mean the profits AFTER billionaire doctors and health care administrators take their "fair" cut?
post #337 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Let me guess... a lie?

So you don't then. OK. I figured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Or do you mean the profits AFTER billionaire doctors and health care administrators take their "fair" cut?

Billionaire doctors? Billionaire health care administrators? You're really going off the rails now.

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post #338 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So you don't then. OK. I figured.



Billionaire doctors? Billionaire health care administrators? You're really going off the rails now.

Completely off the rails:
Quote:
Ins. Co. & CEO With 2007 Total CEO Compensation
Aetna Ronald A. Williams: $23,045,834
Cigna H. Edward Hanway: $25,839,777
Coventry Dale B. Wolf : $14,869,823
Health Net Jay M. Gellert: $3,686,230
Humana Michael McCallister: $10,312,557
U.Health Grp Stephen J. Hemsley: $13,164,529
WellPoint Angela Braly (2007): $9,094,271
L. Glasscock (2006): $23,886,169
Ins. Co. & CEO With 2008 Total CEO Compensation
Aetna, Ronald A. Williams: $24,300,112
Cigna, H. Edward Hanway: $12,236,740
Coventry, Dale Wolf: $9,047,469
Health Net, Jay Gellert: $4,425,355
Humana, Michael McCallister: $4,764,309
U. Health Group, Stephen J. Hemsley: $3,241,042
Wellpoint, Angela Braly: $9,844,212
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post #339 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So you don't then. OK. I figured.



Billionaire doctors? Billionaire health care administrators? You're really going off the rails now.

Are you serious? You know billionaire was an exaggeration, right?

Now...

Which country has the highest paid doctors in the world? Care to guess?
post #340 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Are you serious? You know billionaire was an exaggeration, right?

So then what other "exaggeration" are embedded in your posts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Which country has the highest paid doctors in the world? Care to guess?

I'd guess the US. But I don't know off the top of my head.

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post #341 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Completely off the rails:

Yep.
post #342 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Completely off the rails:

Yes. From my calculations there are 3 zeros missing from those numbers.

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post #343 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'd guess the US. But I don't know off the top of my head.


Good guess.
post #344 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes. From my calculations there are 3 zeros missing from those numbers.

From my calculations there is 99% brain mass missing from your skull.
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post #345 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes. From my calculations there are 3 zeros missing from those numbers.

And from your ethical point of view those numbers seem just fine.
post #346 of 753
Look tonton when you (and Wormhole and Mumbo Jumbo (appropriate named) and jimmac and BR) get all of your information and "knowledge" and "understanding" of the world from places like Huffington Post and Barack Obama's speeches and press releases, you're bound to be misinformed. A lot.

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post #347 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Look tonton when you (and Wormhole and Mumbo Jumbo (appropriate named) and jimmac and BR) get all of your information and "knowledge" and "understanding" of the world from places like Huffington Post and Barack Obama's speeches and press releases, you're bound to be misinformed. A lot.

What are you conserving Mr. Conservative?
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post #348 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And from your ethical point of view those numbers seem just fine.

If they earned that compensation by freely competing on a free, open and voluntary market, then yes. If they've been able to "earn" that income because they are protected by a variety of government protections, regulations, cartelization and monopolization of the market, then no.

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post #349 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

If they earned that compensation by freely competing on a free, open and voluntary market, then yes. If they've been able to "earn" that income because they are protected by a variety of government protections, regulations, cartelization and monopolization of the market, then no.

Health insurance cos enjoy a trust. They do not have to compete on the free market. Dems wanted to change this Cons said NO.
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post #350 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

From my calculations there is 99% brain mass missing from your skull.

Huh. That sound like ad ad hom. Lemme guess, it's a liberal who's found someone they disagree with and they're unwilling to make rational, valid, relevant, fact-based and logical arguments in support of there view so...well...they resort to ad homs.

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post #351 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Look tonton when you (and Wormhole and Mumbo Jumbo (appropriate named) and jimmac and BR) get all of your information and "knowledge" and "understanding" of the world from places like Huffington Post and Barack Obama's speeches and press releases, you're bound to be misinformed. A lot.

Actually, truth be told, almost all of those of us you've mentioned have actually lived outside of the US, and know how these things are in the real world. We also get all of our information from multiple sources, including places like the Cato Institute. What we don't do is limit our reading to the "approved Austrian Economists book of the month club."

We also observe. Not just theorize.
post #352 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Health insurance cos enjoy a trust. They do not have to compete on the free market.

Exactly!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Dems wanted to change this Cons said NO.

Well, that's a lie. But you're right about the first part.

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post #353 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Actually, truth be told, almost all of those of us you've mentioned have actually lived outside of the US, and know how these things are in the real world. We also get all of our information from multiple sources, including places like the Cato Institute. What we don't do is limit our reading to the "approved Austrian Economists book of the month club."

We also observe. Not just theorize.

Speaking and reading 3 languages is also extremely helpful when you want to get news from around the world. You should try it sometime MJ1870
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post #354 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

We also observe.

Not very well or very deeply it seems.

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post #355 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, that's a lie.

You know, you say that an awful lot without a single source of backup. It's your default defense.
post #356 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Exactly!




Well, that's a lie. But you're right about the first part.

Really?
Passing-Health-Insurance-Industry-Fair-Competition-Act-will-break-monopoly-power-of-some-health-insurers
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post #357 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Not very well or very deeply it seems.

Well, let's just say we have a different perspective. I believe my perspective is more objective and informed. You apparently believe in conjecture spewed by an extremely singular ideological mindset.
post #358 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Huh. That sound like ad ad hom. Lemme guess, it's a liberal who's found someone they disagree with and they're unwilling to make rational, valid, relevant, fact-based and logical arguments in support of there view so...well...they resort to ad homs.

Just trying to learn from you.
making rational, valid, relevant, fact-based and logical arguments is useless as response to your posts.
Boehner doesn't do it, Michele Bachmann, Palin, Gingrich, .... please link to one of their rational, valid, relevant, fact-based and logical arguments. Thanks.
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post #359 of 753

Why didn't they do the simplest possible thing they could have if they really wanted to? Congress is more than willing to use the interstate commerce clause of the constitution to justify anything and everything whether actually related to commerce or not. The two simplest things they could have done here were:

- Dis-allow restrictions and prohibitions from selling insurance across state lines.
- Make health insurance benefits taxable income.

Both of these these things would have massively restructured the health insurance industry for much greater competition almost over night. No special bills that give the appearance of creating more competition or creating fake government managed competition. Real competition.

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post #360 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes. From my calculations there are 3 zeros missing from those numbers.

Try adding them up, sweety.
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