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How Can One Possibly Support Obama's Economic Policies? - Page 3

post #81 of 753
More good news coming from Obamanomics:

Quote:
House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said Tuesday that tax increases will eventually be necessary to address the nation's mounting debt, raising a difficult election-year issue as Democrats fight to retain control of Congress.

In the shorter term, Hoyer raised the possibility that Congress will only temporarily extend middle-class tax cuts set to expire at the end of the year. He pointedly suggested that making them permanent would be too costly.

Tax cuts enacted under former President George W. Bush are scheduled to expire at the end of the year, affecting taxpayers at every income level. President Barack Obama proposes to permanently extend them for individuals making less than $200,000 a year and families making less than $250,000 at a cost of about $2.5 trillion over the next decade.


Quote:
On the spending side, Hoyer said Congress should consider raising the retirement age for full Social Security and Medicare benefits, and making those benefits progressive so that wealthier recipients get less than the needy.


Well, let's just say that things should get even more "interesting" from here on out.

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post #82 of 753
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by user23 View Post

I have a feeling that most of you responding in this forum really don't understand what Socialism is; or, rather, could be.

Let's allow Wikipedia to illuminate the darkness, shall we?

"In a socialist economic system, production is carried out by a public association of producers to directly produce use-values (instead of exchange-values), through coordinated planning of investment decisions, distribution of surplus, and the use of the means of production. Socialism is a set of social and economic arrangements based on a post-monetary system of calculation, such as labor time or energy units.[4]

Socialists advocate a method of compensation based on individual merit or the amount of labor one contributes to society.[5] They generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. They argue that this creates an unequal society that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximise their potential,[6] and does not utilise technology and resources to their maximum potential in the interests of the public.[7] Socialists characterize full socialism as a society no longer based on coercive wage-labor."



For the record, I find capitalism as it is practiced today in the USA...along with its seepage into politics & the mental-scape of American "culture" a near total-crime on several levels.

I find it very difficult to observe most large corporations producing wealth. Rather, I find them producing illth. If you need to me to cite my sources for this statement, then be prepared for a rather lengthy response, beginning with the 18th & 19th centuries (the dawn of the industrial age) and ending with..well, no end in sight. Alas.

There is a trend in this country, which I count myself as proudly part of, characterized by a powerful, natural impulse to restore order & balance to life - to move away from Corporate dominance & control. I admit that this movement is perhaps strongest on the West coast, in particular the Republic of Cascadia* Regardless of its size or numbers, there are least some who have risen above the flat-landers in order to celebrate life & not profits.

Feel free to flame, attack or destroy this post. I understand my words are challenging...or perhaps deluded...or perhaps the puerile efforts of a half-wit. To that I respond, in advance, whatevs.


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadi...ce_movement%29

There's no reason to flame when you have expressed such a wingnut position. It is what it is, as are you. Have a pleasant stay.
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post #83 of 753
Obama has progressed from messing up his own economy to betraying the democracies of the western world.

What a disaster of an American presidency. Forget the comparisons to Jimmy Carter. Carter is starting to look like a political genius compared to Obama.
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post #84 of 753
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

....

What a disaster of an American presidency. Forget the comparisons to Jimmy Carter. Carter is starting to look like a political genius compared to Obama.

Agreed. The incompetence, hostility towards everyday citizens/business/the constitution is just amazing. I never predicted he would be this bad. Though I didn't vote for him, I had hopes that he would be as moderate as he claimed. Apparently not.
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post #85 of 753
Thread Starter 
User23:

I just reread your post. I hope you realize that the argument you're making is that Socialism just hasn't been implemented correctly. Apparently you're a sophomore in college taking a political science class. That's about the level of understanding you demonstrate.
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post #86 of 753
Oh look! More good news on as a result of Obamanomics:

Quote:
Sales of new homes dropped to a record low in May, according to new government figures released Wednesday, providing a gauge of the market’s dependence on a federal stimulus program.

The Commerce Department figures showed that new single-family homes sold at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 300,000 in May, down 32.7 percent from the revised April rate of 446,000.

Analysts had expected sales to fall to about 400,000 in May after a government tax credit for new buyers expired at the end of April. Many said the actual figure was exceedingly low.

“That new home sales would decline in May following the expiration of the home buyers credit is not at all surprising,” said Dan Greenhaus, chief economic strategist for Miller Tabak, in a research note. “However, we would be lying if we said the size of the drop was not shocking.”

Mr. Greenhaus said the 32.7 percent drop was the largest since the government started compiling the data in 1963, surpassing the 23.8 percent decline in January 1994. The May sales rate is 18.3 percent below that of May 2009, when the figure was 367,000.


Quote:
“And now you are going to see some weak numbers for a while,” Mr. Shapiro said. “We think prices have to come down further and there is too much supply. It is going to be quite a struggle for several months.”


Quote:
The tax credit “has just muddled the data,” said Mr. Newport. “I personally think the tax credit has mainly shifted activity from one period to another.”

Well, duh! This is the same thing we saw with the "Cash for Clunkers" program. Again, it appears that all that has happened is they kicked the can further down the road.


Still waiting for the Obamapologists to come out and tell us how this is good news, or that it would be worse, probably much worse, without the "stimulus" or something, anything to illustrate that Obamanomics are simply a bad mistake. So far they've been quite silent here on all of the good news of this administration.

There's likely to be a certain amount of karmic justice in all of this. Instead of letting things be and letting the economy sort itself out early in his presidency, Obama (Intervener-in-Chief) couldn't help but meddle (well, and loot a few hundred billion dollars to payoff his campaign debts). This has resulted in stretching the pain out further and pushing the recovery further down the road. Timing could be, let's say, unfavorable for Mr. Obama from an election (or at least mid-term election) perspective. He might find himself actually having to be bi-partisan (rather than just talking about it) after 2010.

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post #87 of 753
I don't imagine that you will find anyone here willing to defend Obama's economic policies, it seems that his supporters are as disappointed as his critics.

Among Obama's economic failings to date:

-The stimulus has failed
-The debt has been dramatically increased due to rash and reckless programs
-The financial regulations failed to sufficiently addresses the causes of the meltdown
- The medical reform will add to taxes, and likely fail
- The promotion of crony capitalism at the cost of the public treasury.

And now that the economy is headed into the doldrums, he has no arrows left.
post #88 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxParrish View Post

I don't imagine that you will find anyone here willing to defend Obama's economic policies, it seems that his supporters are as disappointed as his critics.

Among Obama's economic failings to date:

-The stimulus has failed
-The debt has been dramatically increased due to rash and reckless programs
-The financial regulations failed to sufficiently addresses the causes of the meltdown
- The medical reform will add to taxes, and likely fail
- The promotion of crony capitalism at the cost of the public treasury.

And now that the economy is headed into the doldrums, he has no arrows left.

I think the more fundamental problem is that the "arrows" he used were pointed right at the heart of America, her freedom and, consequentially, her economy.

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post #89 of 753
Thread Starter 
Anyone notice that jimmc is AWOL? He's probably got most of us on "ignore" by now.
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post #90 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Anyone notice that jimmc is AWOL? He's probably got most of us on "ignore" by now.

Why because the wingnuts here are trying their upmost ( working over time ) to find anything.......anything to throw at Obama? It's laughable more than anything!

Unlike some sand box children here I have a real life. But I have been waiting for your next embarassing moment.
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post #91 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Why because the wingnuts here are trying their upmost ( working over time ) to find anything.......anything to throw at Obama? It's laughable more than anything!)

Sorry jimmac! Pretty laughable your defense of dear leader... all one need do is review any political issue today and see how bad Obama has screwed it up... one not need to look far for his incompetence! Obama's failed at every effort; he'e worse than Peanut Farmer Carter and the most incompetent leader Democrats have ever backed... none of those Democrats running for office want Obama to campaign for them... he's what we call a lame duck in politics... Hillary Clinton has more political power than Obama...
post #92 of 753
Liberal hero JA Keynes was was cornered by a journalist and asked why he flipped on an important issue. Keynes dryly replied "when the facts change, I change my my mind. What do you do?"

Now that the facts have changed, my advice to Obama supporters is that it is time to do the honorable thing: confess your error, ask forgiveness, and revise your thinking.
post #93 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Why because the wingnuts here are trying their upmost ( working over time ) to find anything.......anything to throw at Obama?

No need to work "overtime," just need to look at the news on a daily basis. That is unless you suffer from PPD in which case all you can see is the "good" Obama is doing and you're blind to his (many) failures.

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post #94 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No need to work "overtime," just need to look at the news on a daily basis. That is unless you suffer from PPD in which case all you can see is the "good" Obama is doing and you're blind to his (many) failures.

Well, it looks like you've taken a side.
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post #95 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well, it looks like you've taken a side.

What "side" have I taken? Have you taken a "side" and, if so, which "side"?

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post #96 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What "side" have I taken? Have you taken a "side" and, if so, which "side"?

The Republican side. Your comments clearly show it. Now of course you'll say " Where? " I'll sight a passage and then you'll say something like " Well just because we agree about Obama.......". Like displaying your denial will accomplish a lot. You may not call yourself a Republican but you guys have enough in common what the hell is the difference? And when you want to get rid of a common enemy........?

Please you've taken a side. You only say you haven't when it fits your argument.
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post #97 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The Republican side. Your comments clearly show it. Now of course you'll say " Where? " I'll sight a passage and then you'll say something like " Well just because we agree about Obama.......". Like displaying your denial will accomplish a lot. You may not call yourself a Republican but you guys have enough in common what the hell is the difference? And when you want to get rid of a common enemy........?

Please you've taken a side. You only say you haven't when it fits your argument.

Things cannot be categorized in terms of Democrat and Republican only. At least not to any person that can think outside the partisan box.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #98 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The Republican side. Your comments clearly show it. Now of course you'll say " Where? " I'll sight a passage and then you'll say something like " Well just because we agree about Obama.......". Like displaying your denial will accomplish a lot. You may not call yourself a Republican but you guys have enough in common what the hell is the difference? And when you want to get rid of a common enemy........?

Please you've taken a side. You only say you haven't when it fits your argument.

As jazzguru pointed out the labeling of "Democrat" and "Republican" are not the only ways to categorize people's view (as you clearly imply.) That's especially true in this case. If I have "picked a side" it is the side of reality, truth and freedom. If Obama (and perhaps you also) just happens to be on the opposite of those in many cases is not my fault.

But I also noticed you avoided answering my question. Mind you I'm not at all surprised by this. But I'll keep asking so that your continued evasion and avoidance will become clear for all to see:

Have you taken a "side" and, if so, which "side"?

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post #99 of 753
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

As jazzguru pointed out the labeling of "Democrat" and "Republican" are not the only ways to categorize people's view (as you clearly imply.) That's especially true in this case. If I have "picked a side" it is the side of reality, truth and freedom. If Obama (and perhaps you also) just happens to be on the opposite of those in many cases is not my fault.

But I also noticed you avoided answering my question. Mind you I'm not at all surprised by this. But I'll keep asking so that your continued evasion and avoidance will become clear for all to see:

Have you taken a "side" and, if so, which "side"?

Good luck getting him to answer that one.
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post #100 of 753
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Why because the wingnuts here are trying their upmost ( working over time ) to find anything.......anything to throw at Obama? It's laughable more than anything!

Unlike some sand box children here I have a real life. But I have been waiting for your next embarassing moment.

As MJ posted, working overtime is not required. Actually, nothing more than watching events unfold is required.
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post #101 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

As jazzguru pointed out the labeling of "Democrat" and "Republican" are not the only ways to categorize people's view (as you clearly imply.) That's especially true in this case. If I have "picked a side" it is the side of reality, truth and freedom. If Obama (and perhaps you also) just happens to be on the opposite of those in many cases is not my fault.

But I also noticed you avoided answering my question. Mind you I'm not at all surprised by this. But I'll keep asking so that your continued evasion and avoidance will become clear for all to see:

Have you taken a "side" and, if so, which "side"?

Sure they're just labels. Have I taken a side? Yes I'm going with the Democrats ( even though I'm registered independent ). Obama doesn't do everything I'd like however the Republicans have no answers or solutions and are only interested that the rest of the country think exactly like them. The GOP are only out for themselves and until they reform I won't vote for them. There are no 3rd parties that offer solutions either. They have as many problems as the Republicans and have a snowball's chance in hell to get into office.

Sorry the way I view it the republicans have proven time and again they're are the worst threat to freedom and the rights of the individual under the constitution in this country in recent times.
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post #102 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

As MJ posted, working overtime is not required. Actually, nothing more than watching events unfold is required.

The why so many posts dug up from obscure corners of the internet? As far supplying their own embarrassing material the Republicans have cornered that market.
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post #103 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The why so many posts dug up from obscure corners of the internet?

Which ones are those?

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post #104 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Have I taken a side? Yes I'm going with the Democrats

Wow! Thank you for answering directly. So when you accuse someone else of taking a side, we now know that you also have "taken a side."


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The GOP are only out for themselves and until they reform...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Sorry the way I view it the republicans have proven time and again they're are the worst threat to freedom and the rights of the individual under the constitution in this country in recent times.

And, again, your PPD is showing.

Both of the current major political parties are a profound threat to freedom. You are simply choosing to see only once side.

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post #105 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Wow! Thank you for answering directly. So when you accuse someone else of taking a side, we now know that you also have "taken a side."






And, again, your PPD is showing.

Quote:
So when you accuse someone else of taking a side, we now know that you also have "taken a side."


Both of the current major political parties are a profound threat to freedom. You are simply choosing to see only once side.

I've never made it a secret ( or what you're trying for a dirty idea ) that I'm less afraid of the Democrats damaging things beyond the ability to set them straight again.




Sorry if you don't like it. However in reality it's the Republicans who forced me into it.

However you've completely missed the point of PPD. It's the inability for both parties to work together. It's not about " Have you taken a side? ".
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post #106 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Sorry if you don't like it. However in reality it's the Republicans who forced me into it.

The Republicans forced you into it?

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post #107 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The Republicans forced you into it?

Yes. I thought it ironic and funny also.
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post #108 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes. I thought it ironic and funny also.

No, really, they forced you?

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post #109 of 753
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The why so many posts dug up from obscure corners of the internet? As far supplying their own embarrassing material the Republicans have cornered that market.

So these posts are the sole basis of "our" criticism?

And answers the question...which posts are they?
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post #110 of 753
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

The Republicans forced you into it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes. I thought it ironic and funny also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No, really, they forced you?


This is like an episode of Seinfeld, where jimmac is that lady who didn't know what "ironic" meant.

How did they force you, jimmac? And what..pray tell..gives you more hope for the Democrats, considering the unmitigated nightmare they've created.
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post #111 of 753
Kinda funny how Obama is finding no support for his economic policy at the G20. The world turned their back to his failed policies.
post #112 of 753
Well maybe the rest of the world is starting to wake up. Reality has a funny way of splashing cold water in the face of Utopian dreams.

This was funny:

Quote:
In a news conference at the meeting's conclusion, Obama said that the world's largest economic powers had agreed on the need for "continued growth in the short term and fiscal sustainability in the medium term."

I in the spirit of true Keynesianism...we're all dead in the long-term so need to be concerned with that.


And more evidence that they still just don't get it:

Quote:
Strong emerging markets such as China, the document said, need to guard against a slowdown by encouraging their governments and people to spend more, investing more on infrastructure, establishing better social safety nets to give families more income

<sigh>

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post #113 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

This is like an episode of Seinfeld, where jimmac is that lady who didn't know what "ironic" meant.

How did they force you, jimmac? And what..pray tell..gives you more hope for the Democrats, considering the unmitigated nightmare they've created.

Well I'm assuming you are trying to convert the world to your way of thinking like any good republican does.
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post #114 of 753
CBO chief: Budget outlook 'daunting':

Quote:
Douglas Elmendorf, chief budget cruncher for Congress, got to play the role of bad-news bear before the president's bipartisan fiscal commission on Wednesday.

His job: Present the Congressional Budget Office's latest assessment of the long-term federal budget.

The gist of his testimony went something like this: The outlook is bad under current law and daunting if many current policies are extended as expected. And even that may understate the fiscal problem the country faces, because it doesn't factor in potential effects of debt on economic growth.

Under the rosiest scenario painted by Elmendorf, the debt held by the public is on track to rise to 80% in 2035 from 62% at the end of this year. At that point, interest payments on that debt would jump to 4% of GDP, up from roughly 1% today. That's the equivalent of a third of all federal revenue.

Note that this isn't total debt, only debt held by the public. That's only part of the equation.


Quote:
Based on current policies, debt held by the public would hit 185% of GDP in 2035. And interest payments on that debt would jump to nearly 9% of GDP.

Grim indeed.


Quote:
The health care law "made a dent in the problem but did not significantly reduce the challenge," Elmendorf said. "If all the health law measures are implemented, we end up with slightly lower federal health spending by the end of the 2020s."

Yeah, that's gonna happen.


Quote:
Debt can sap growth: The larger the debt burden grows, the less money there will be for domestic investment. That, in turn, can suppress income growth and economic growth, which then reduces tax revenue.

The only way to bring the federal budget into better balance would be to sharply reduce U.S. spending, drastically increase taxes to rates never before seen in the United States or some less dramatic combination of the two, Elmendorf said.

The challenges are great, and the longer policymakers wait to stabilize the debt, the harder their task, Elmendorf said.

He gave an example: Say Congress started implementing measures next year to bring public debt back to what it was before the financial crisis. They would immediately and permanently need to cut spending by or increase taxes by 5% of GDP. That's $700 billion a year.


Quote:
"If debt grows unchecked," Elmendorf said, "it means declines in people's standards of living."

Welcome to the Utopian World of Obamanomics.

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post #115 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Welcome to the Utopian World of Obamanomics.

News Breaking: "National debt soars to highest level since WWII," combined with "Jobs Market Barely Budges in June as Hiring Stays Weak," lead us to understand Obamanomics simply as Chicago Incompetence...
post #116 of 753
I've had quite enough of Obama's Hope and Change.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #117 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I've had quite enough of Obama's Hope and Change.

Awwww...c'mon! You're not having fun yet? Well, it's probably because your're employed and actually earning money. Or maybe it's because we just haven't reached the full culmination of Obamatopia. But soon my friend. Soon.

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post #118 of 753
Obama is a disgrace. Well, at least the Senate Dems are a disgrace under his guidance.

The Senate financial reform bill included a tax on the largest banks that would help pay for the cost of the bill.

This is responsible leadership!

However, because they have no balls and they're afraid of the (fucking unbelievably irresponsible) Reublicans the Dems removed the bank tax.

The fact is, Democratic reforms will work if they are fully implemented. Half-assed, Republican-pandering, watering-down, that's what's not going to work.

Obama talks the talk and then walks the other way. Wishy washy is failure. Grow some balls, Barry!
post #119 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Obama is a disgrace. Well, at least the Senate Dems are a disgrace under his guidance.

The Senate financial reform bill included a tax on the largest banks that would help pay for the cost of the bill.

This is responsible leadership!

However, because they have no balls and they're afraid of the (fucking unbelievably irresponsible) Reublicans the Dems removed the bank tax.

The fact is, Democratic reforms will work if they are fully implemented. Half-assed, Republican-pandering, watering-down, that's what's not going to work.

Obama talks the talk and then walks the other way. Wishy washy is failure. Grow some balls, Barry!

I'm afraid I'm starting to agree with this as well.
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post #120 of 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Obama talks the talk and then walks the other way. Wishy washy is failure. Grow some balls, Barry!

Not to pile on here but that last request may be technically impossible as Kathleen Parker explains... read her whole article... lots of good points!

Obama: Our first female president
By Kathleen Parker
Washington Post
Wednesday, June 30, 2010
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062903997.html
If Bill Clinton was our first black president, as Toni Morrison once proclaimed, then Barack Obama may be our first woman president.
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