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What's the deal with the Southern US? - Page 2

post #41 of 77
So, basically, what all of you are saying is that it's better for us to generate our own half-assed theories about why murder rates are higher in the south than to discuss the actual results of several (well-conducted) psychological studies? BRussell, you're a psychologist, back me up on this one.

All you armchair psychologists need to read the link that BRussell provided a few posts back. Then come back here and discuss. No wonder I don't get into discussions in this forum more often. People would rather talk about personal experiences than what actually happens.
post #42 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>
People would rather talk about personal experiences than what actually happens. </strong><hr></blockquote>

You mean personal experiences don't really happen? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
shooby doo, shooby doo
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shooby doo, shooby doo
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post #43 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

You mean personal experiences don't really happen? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not at all, just that they don't make a good basis for theories about human behavior. I mis-spoke in my earlier post and I stand corrected. I do believe, however, that personal experience makes a bad basis for scientific theory. As Freud about the rigors of a single-case design and see how scientific he is. Experience is good, but since most of us are either not poor, racist, gun-toting, southern, etc, etc. I don't believe that we can accurately draw on our experience and generalize it to that of the people we are talking about. Maybe that explains my point a little better.
post #44 of 77
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>So, basically, what all of you are saying is that it's better for us to generate our own half-assed theories about why murder rates are higher in the south than to discuss the actual results of several (well-conducted) psychological studies?</strong><hr></blockquote>Yeah I think from now on before anyone posts here you have to carry out a study with an appropriate control condition.
post #45 of 77
It's all the evil white peoples' fault.
post #46 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>It's all the evil white peoples' fault.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What the hell are you talking about? Do you have a sticky note with your pat responses ready to post or do you just have a script that automatically posts for you?
post #47 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>Yeah I think from now on before anyone posts here you have to carry out a study with an appropriate control condition.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course Seriously, though, we're ignoring all the information that we have to answer this question and making up our own reasons. In the process, we're also ignoring Scott H.'s one (somewhat) reasonable response to the thread. He said there were some studies that looked at this and maybe we should be thinking about those studies.

We should all make a concerted effort to positively reinforce Scott for being a relatively mature adult who thinks out his responses those extremely few times he does.
post #48 of 77
[quote]Experience is good, but since most of us are either not poor, racist, gun-toting, southern, etc, etc.<hr></blockquote>

You want poor, gun-toting rednecks then look no farther than my mother's side of the family. East Texas dwellers from Alabama and Arkansas. There are more fake teeth at those family reunions than in your local nursing home.

In my experience (which is more significant among the rednecks and hillbillies than most) racism is a non-issue. Note the lack of KKK (and related group) influence and power.

I've met as many racist rich kids in frats as I have gun-toting rednecks.

Crime is related to class, not race. People will do anything to get ahead, people just have different options. Bo-Bo and Knuck-Knuck from the boonies can hold up a few convenience stores, Thaddeus from the financial district can extort money from big corporations and ruin jobs. What is a "crime", really?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #49 of 77
Maybe the 'kind' of crime. Violent crime usually brings forth more emotion, and it's reflected in the news media.
post #50 of 77
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>We should all make a concerted effort to positively reinforce Scott for being a relatively mature adult who thinks out his responses those extremely few times he does.</strong><hr></blockquote>Hmm, using an internet-based behavior therapy to cure ASPD. I think we have a dissertation!
post #51 of 77
i grew up in alabama and now i live in georgia. there's definately something to be said, from my experience, about differences in rural and urban environments. i grew up in a small town and -isms and phobias were really common. however the violent crime was much much lower. here in savannah it's a lot more urban, and i don't witness as much racism, but there is a lot more violent crime. most of it is black on black crime, but every now and then a white or foreign student will get knocked off in a gang initiation or something. i feel a lot safer back in alabama, even though there homophobia is a bigger problem than in savannah. but from all my time living down here, it definately seems that poverty is the common link in those who commit violent crimes. Seems like most of the news comes from either the trailer parks outside of town, or from the ghetto.
post #52 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by _ alliance _:
<strong>put all the stupid people in one state that noone cares about (like minnesota or alaska) and lock it up. then let the real people have the rest of the country.

or...we can go back to social darwinism...survival of the fittest always works. no more letting the stupid and weak survive. if they arent fit to live, then they die. at the very least, STOP LETTING THEM BREED!!!

only the strong must pass on genetics.

that sound better...?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks Hitler (Are you an Ubermensch?) <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

And what have you got against Minnesota!

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: thentro ]</p>
post #53 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by thentro:
<strong>

Thanks Hitler (Are you an Ubermensch?) <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

And what have you got against Minnesota!

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: thentro ]</strong><hr></blockquote>




<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
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"If curling is an olympic sport, then oral sex is adultery. If anything, oral sex should be an olympic sport...cause it's...
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post #54 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>I can back that up. I had a roommate at Virginia Tech that grew up in cow country Virginia. His roommate before me was a black guy. His father was a truck driver so it wasn't like he was some NoVA upper middle class guy. We all got a long just fine. Who'da thunk it? Not the knee jerk liberals that's for sure.

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

NoVA is Northern Virginia, for those of you who wondered. That is a DIFFERENT FRIGGIN WORLD compared with the rest of the South.
Never had ONE lesson.
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Never had ONE lesson.
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post #55 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>
I personally think it's guns. The gun rates are higher in the South, and so are the murder rates.

About half of all household in the South have a gun, compared to about 1/3 in the rest of the country.

And virtually all homicides are with guns. Seems pretty clear to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And I think that murder rates would be HIGHER in the South without gun ownership by responsible citizens. But I know that BRussell and pfflam and I could argue about that one forever.

I still live my life according to the belief that my personal security is my responsibility, and my duty. I will have a gun in my home as long as the benefits outweigh the costs. I also believe that MY gun means less violence or threat of harm to those of you out there who DON'T have guns. My gun keeps the crooks guessing, and they're LESS LIKELY to break into your home because they know that behind door number one, two or three there's a loaded shotgun waiting. Do I have a study that proves that? No, but gun crime rates are lower in states with concealed-carry and "shall issue" gun laws, according to John Lott and other reputable economists. Makes sense to me, so I choose to believe it.

And, torifile, if the reputable "studies" are clearly contrary to one's own experience and understanding of human behavior, one shouldn't believe them. That's what science is all about. Also, one shouldn't believe them if they're produced with an agenda in mind -- that ain't science, it's politics.
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Never had ONE lesson.
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post #56 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by finboy:
<strong>

And, torifile, if the reputable "studies" are clearly contrary to one's own experience and understanding of human behavior, one shouldn't believe them. That's what science is all about. Also, one shouldn't believe them if they're produced with an agenda in mind -- that ain't science, it's politics.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Umm, if the studies are properly done and peer reviewed, then they very likely represent their subject accurately. 50 years ago it was "clearly contrary to one's experience and understanding of human behavior" (from the white man's point of view) that African-Americans weren't inferior and deserved equal rights. It is "science" (as you put it) to question your own perceptions if a well-designed study contradicts your own experiences. The "scientific" point of view is to question all assumptions - question the research, yes, but also question why you see things differently. You have to allow for the possibility that the study is right and your perceptions are wrong. And usually, someone with an agenda is someone who's research tells me I'm wrong - I just declare that they have an "agenda" and ignore their results because it's easier to kill the messenger than believe the message. Yes, some researchers are biased. I think that goes for all of us, though...

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: TJM ]</p>
"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the Universe" - Galileo Galilei
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post #57 of 77
When "King Of The Hill" first aired, I asked a friend, "Do people up north get this stuff?" His answer was, "Oh, there are hicks everywhere." And he was as liberal a guy you'll ever find.

If you want to believe Texas is a violent, gun shooting place, there's not much one can do about stereotypcasting. And that falls close to racism.

We tried to recruit Rodney King to come to Texas but California BEAT us to him.

There were some nice kids in Colorado we wanted for our schools... but SHOOT... they were busy making plans.

And although we like to do things in a big way down here in Texas... we just could not top New York back in Septmeber.

Violence is everywhere. We hope we can kill as many Yates as there are. Is it a deterence? Well, if she gets the death penalty... it'll certainly deter her from doing it again!

And just for the record... Texans come from CA,NY,NJ,FL...

Here's the bottom line: Bush in Whitehouse--Bush popular--Liberals paniced = Let's bash the South where Republicans are strong.

Beware of the Texan... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: elppa cam ]</p>
Ayn Rand... smarter than live people.
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Ayn Rand... smarter than live people.
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post #58 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by elppa cam:
<strong>When "King Of The Hill" first aired, I asked a friend, "Do people up north get this stuff?" His answer was, "Oh, there are hicks everywhere." And he was as liberal a guy you'll ever find.

If you want to believe Texas is a violent, gun shooting place, there's not much one can do about stereotypcasting. And that falls close to racism.

We tried to recruit Rodney King to come to Texas but California BEAT us to him.

There were some nice kids in Colorado we wanted for our schools... but SHOOT... they were busy making plans.

And although we like to do things in a big way down here in Texas... we just could not top New York back in Septmeber.

Violence is everywhere. We hope we can kill as many Yates as there are. Is it a deterence? Well, if she gets the death penalty... it'll certainly deter her from doing it again!

And just for the record... Texans come from CA,NY,NJ,FL...

Here's the bottom line: Bush in Whitehouse--Bush popular--Liberals paniced = Let's bash the South where Republicans are strong.

Beware of the Texan... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: elppa cam ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Amen!
post #59 of 77
Uh, elppa cam, cool rational discussion will get you nowhere here. Fast.

keep up the good work!
post #60 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by elppa cam:
<strong>!

And just for the record... Texans come from CA,NY,NJ,FL...

</strong><hr></blockquote>

If I recall my American History correctly, many of the early settlers of Texas actually came from Tennessee. Davy Crockett, for example, was a Tennessean (he died defending the Alamo, for those who don't remember him). As a resident of Tennessee, that fact explains an awful lot to me about Texas... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the Universe" - Galileo Galilei
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"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the Universe" - Galileo Galilei
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post #61 of 77
This reply is a bit late, Samantha Joanne Ollendale, but do you really need for me to explain how percentages can be skewed by using smaller samples?

If there's a murder in a city of 100,000, that's 1 in 100,000. There was a murder in my hometown once many years ago. For that year, the homicide rate was pretty darn high because the population is &lt;30,000 people.

Referring to Alaska above, imagine how a Columbine type of mass-murder could have completely skewed its murders per 100,000 people figures vs the same type of murder in a more populated state or Canada.
I can change my sig again!
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I can change my sig again!
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post #62 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by TJM:
<strong>

If I recall my American History correctly, many of the early settlers of Texas actually came from Tennessee. Davy Crockett, for example, was a Tennessean (he died defending the Alamo, for those who don't remember him). As a resident of Tennessee, that fact explains an awful lot to me about Texas... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>



many of the immigration to texas of the past 10-20 years come from california--i am included in this group. i am kinda confused by the ignorance in this conversation and am somewhat surprised that it is still going...
oh well--ignorance is bliss, eh?
as long as it makes u northerners feel better about yerselves, then go right ahead and keep bashing away...
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post #63 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by TJM:
<strong>

Umm, if the studies are properly done and peer reviewed, then they very likely represent their subject accurately. 50 years ago it was "clearly contrary to one's experience and understanding of human behavior" (from the white man's point of view) that African-Americans weren't inferior and deserved equal rights. It is "science" (as you put it) to question your own perceptions if a well-designed study contradicts your own experiences. The "scientific" point of view is to question all assumptions - question the research, yes, but also question why you see things differently. You have to allow for the possibility that the study is right and your perceptions are wrong. And usually, someone with an agenda is someone who's research tells me I'm wrong - I just declare that they have an "agenda" and ignore their results because it's easier to kill the messenger than believe the message. Yes, some researchers are biased. I think that goes for all of us, though...

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: TJM ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

And 50 years ago, there were Nazis who had produced studies that said that Jews were inferior. And Soviets that produced studies that showed the New Soviet Man to be advancing. We know now that all of those things were incomplete.

As for my own personal security, the flaws of most research is in extrapolating the behavior of others to situations close to my heart. For instance, when my life is threatened, that represents ONE incident which has occurred with 100% probability. What I use to get out of danger is then important. Statistics, however, refuse to adequately address isolated incidents such as my being confronted with personal injury. When it happens to YOU, I'm sure you'll feel the same way.
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post #64 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by finboy:
<strong>

And 50 years ago, there were Nazis who had produced studies that said that Jews were inferior. And Soviets that produced studies that showed the New Soviet Man to be advancing. We know now that all of those things were incomplete.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I did say IF the studies were properly designed and peer-reviewed. The studies you refer to were neither. They were indeed propaganda from some people with an agenda. Their "studies" were horribly flawed, however, from a scientific standpoint and never published in a peer-reviewed journal (that I'm aware of, anyway).

There was actually a controversy a few years ago whether or not to use the data the Nazis had gathered during WWII. It was finally decided that even though innocent people had been killed to acquire it, it could possibly be useful to save lives in the future. When they actually got out the lab notebooks and internal reports, though, they found that most of it was so horribly done and badly designed to be all but worthless.

So I stand by my earlier comment. IF a study is well designed and peer-reviewed, it very likely represents its subject accurately. It is good scientific procedure to question the results and the metholdology, but also good scientific procedure to question your own thoughts and assumptions if they seems to contradict the results.

And, I agree with you that in a 1-on-1 encounter, all the studies and statistics go out the window.
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post #65 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by TJM:
<strong>

Well, I did say IF the studies were properly designed and peer-reviewed. The studies you refer to were neither. They were indeed propaganda from some people with an agenda. Their "studies" were horribly flawed, however, from a scientific standpoint and never published in a peer-reviewed journal (that I'm aware of, anyway).

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think if you'll look you'll find that "peer-reviewed" can be shaped into whatever you want it to mean.
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post #66 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by finboy:
<strong>

I think if you'll look you'll find that "peer-reviewed" can be shaped into whatever you want it to mean.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Peer-review means a lot more than passing it around to your buddies for an opinion. In scientific circles it has a very specific meaning. All submissions for publication are sent to 6 to 10 (sometimes more, sometimes less) anonymous reviewers from around the world who are considered by the editor of the journal to be experts in the field. They will recommend changes, additional research, clearer conclusions, etc. It is then cleaned up based on these recommendations. The process is repeated until it is cleared by all the reviewers. Journals develop reputations just as researchers do. Ones that have a habit of publishing bad stuff get extremely unpopular with authors because no one will believe anything they publish. So, the peer-review process is crucial to scientific validity. It is only when the experts deem something worthy of being published that it gets into print. It's not foolproof, but it generally does very well.

[ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: TJM ]</p>
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post #67 of 77
Thread Starter 
finboy has personal experience with peer review, as do I and probably quite a few of us here. But thanks for the lesson.
post #68 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>finboy has personal experience with peer review, as do I and probably quite a few of us here. But thanks for the lesson.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Based on what he has been posting, that did not seem at all obvious.

Finboy: My apologies. I have apparently misunderstood your intention in your posts.

[ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: TJM ]</p>
"Mathematics is the language with which God has written the Universe" - Galileo Galilei
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post #69 of 77
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by TJM:
<strong>Based on what he has been posting, that did not seem at all obvious. </strong><hr></blockquote>
BTW: 6-10 reviewers? Maybe more? Are there really journals that use more than 10 reviewers?
:eek:
post #70 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>
BTW: 6-10 reviewers? Maybe more? Are there really journals that use more than 10 reviewers?
:eek: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well I'm not that familiar with the social sciences and psychology end of things. 4 - 6 is more typical in the "real" sciences. I exaggerated a bit because I knew if I just said 4 - 6, somebody else would say, "Hey, dumbbutt, I submitted a paper to the International Journal of Broccoli Phobias and it had to go through 15 reviewers before it got published!" So, c'est la vie.
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post #71 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by TJM:
<strong>

Based on what he has been posting, that did not seem at all obvious.

Finboy: My apologies. I have apparently misunderstood your intention in your posts.

[ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: TJM ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Accepted. I started to say something in the last post about "peer review" having a specific meaning.

In most disciplines, "peer review" means about 2 or 3 people at most, but many many more responsible scientists have read it before it goes out. Also, editors must respond to criticism from established academics once the study is published. Unfortunately, when there is an agenda within the discipline (read: almost all of the social sciences today) there isn't an objective process taking place. The system depends upon the responsibility of professionals, and pushing an agenda ISN'T what professionals do.

Most of the Nazi stuff and Soviet stuff was done within the academic system, after the thugs had forced responsible academics out.

In other words, (and I'm sure most of you guys would agree) don't take things at their face value.
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post #72 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by _ alliance _:
<strong>put all the stupid people in one state that noone cares about (like minnesota or alaska) and lock it up. </strong><hr></blockquote>



Ignorance at its best, perhaps?
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post #73 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by Magicite:
<strong>



Ignorance at its best, perhaps?</strong><hr></blockquote>

wow, jokes fly right over yer head, dont they...?

talk about slow...
"If it weren't for my horse...I wouldn't have spent that year in college."

"If curling is an olympic sport, then oral sex is adultery. If anything, oral sex should be an olympic sport...cause it's...
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"If it weren't for my horse...I wouldn't have spent that year in college."

"If curling is an olympic sport, then oral sex is adultery. If anything, oral sex should be an olympic sport...cause it's...
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post #74 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by _ alliance _:
<strong>

wow, jokes fly right over yer head, dont they...?

talk about slow... </strong><hr></blockquote>


Want me to apologize for coming to the thread late?
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post #75 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by Magicite:
<strong>


Want me to apologize for coming to the thread late?</strong><hr></blockquote>

what does that have to do w/ anything???
*sigh* are u blond and female...?
"If it weren't for my horse...I wouldn't have spent that year in college."

"If curling is an olympic sport, then oral sex is adultery. If anything, oral sex should be an olympic sport...cause it's...
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"If it weren't for my horse...I wouldn't have spent that year in college."

"If curling is an olympic sport, then oral sex is adultery. If anything, oral sex should be an olympic sport...cause it's...
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post #76 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by _ alliance _:
<strong>

what does that have to do w/ anything???
*sigh* are u blond and female...?</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

Keep it coming, why don't you?

If you can't figure out what my previous comment dealt with, then....yikes.
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post #77 of 77
[quote]Originally posted by Magicite:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

Keep it coming, why don't you?

If you can't figure out what my previous comment dealt with, then....yikes.</strong><hr></blockquote>

yes'm. whatever u say...
"If it weren't for my horse...I wouldn't have spent that year in college."

"If curling is an olympic sport, then oral sex is adultery. If anything, oral sex should be an olympic sport...cause it's...
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