Apple sued over use of moisture indicators to deny free repairs - Page 4

Originally Posted by Rambo Is Listening

Here's some news for you man. Your phone came in contact with liquid and you are too weak to admit to: A) Your own faults B) Your lack of perception C) The fact that your phone is not perfectly within eye sight every second of every day and D) That your anger will get you absolutely nowhere at the genius bar as you try to blame it on someone whom you claim is "Trying to take advantage of you."

You can make claims all you want about people who sell computers, but I guarantee you do not know any more than any genius who has worked there for more than a few months. They take these things apart every day repeatedly. Something your arrogance might try to find a fleeting argument against, but will still fail. Plus, if you are taking your phone apart and tampering with it, why would they replace it for you? If you break a connector yourself, why should Apple pay for that? Hell, you're such a pro at taking it apart, why not fix it yourself? Because you can't do it in a cost effective manner while maintaining factory build quality. Might as well get the genius bar swap for $199.

There are 4 sensors on the phone. One red sensor does not automatically disqualify your device from repair. 2 does. They can open your phone and look inside, if it's still wet or internal sensors are tripped, sorry. Take better care of your stuff. If you get splashed and don't notice 1 sensor, ok. If 2 sensors are set off, your phone was wet and if you didn't notice, then it's your fault and you deserve a $199 price tag. We all know liquid and electronics don't mix. Corrosion grows on parts and breaks them. Your fault. I take long, hot showers with my iPhone on the counter every day and my sensors are white as snow.

So take your phone into an Apple store and be a dick. I hope they are dicks right back to you. Get the police in there too, then you can get arrested, spend the night in jail while your car gets towed from the parking lot and then you'll be out a lot more money than your repair would have cost to begin with and you'll still have a liquid damaged phone.

This talk of "I know it never got wet," is what you get when an arrogant person makes the assumption that their own perception of reality precedes everyone else's ability to discern facts.

Grow up.

Originally Posted by skellybits

I must applaud you friend, very well said. I work in retail and what it comes down to always and every day is attitude. I have gone out of my way and bent the rules many times for customers simply because they were nice and reasonable and polite. Too many people walk around acting like the world owes them something, i dont care if you pay monthly service, i dont care how much you spent on this item, nothing gives you the right to treat another person in a rude, degrading negative manor unless they met you with the same treatment first. I have been on both sides of the customer service counter and i have found that being nice, polite, understanding and patient go a very long way. In the end when someone says to you, im sorry there is nothing i can do for you, it really means "i probably could have helped you, possibly bent a rule here or there to make things happen for you, but youre a rude inconsiderate jerk, have a nice day."

Now more on topic, i have had my fair share of dealings with Liquid damage indicators and to be honest most people dont really understand how they work. when people think about liquid damage they think dunked in water. but there are many types of situations in which your phone can be exposed to liquid without you even being aware. Moisture, rain, humidity, condensation, steam, etc. To put it in a way one could understand, if you took your dvd player out in the rain would you expect it to work? better yet would you expect the manufacturer to cover your replacement? absolutely not.

Now i must say that at times i have found them too sensitive. I have touched one with my finger by accident and the simple oils on my hand triggered the LDI. however a phone is a piece of electronic equipment, and just as we keep our TVs, dvd players, stereos and other devices away from moisture and liquids, the same type of care should be applied to a phone. Just because you didnt witness the exposure to liquid doesnt mean it didnt happen. Sorry but i hope apple wins this one.

Originally Posted by tullius


Apple's own documented policies are likely to be quite benign, as well. I'd bet the "use the indicators as a possible flag for concern, but not as 100 percent proof" policy is in there.

How do you prove that Apple employees are being overly aggressive in denying claims because of tripped indicators?

Originally Posted by WilliamG

A parade of reasonable-acting people telling their sob stories to the jury? I'm no litigator, but isn't that the way it is done?

Originally Posted by MJ-PL

You are not right. Please, read the original article. Three attempts as it is the way the iPhone goes from the phone owner to the repair service.

Originally Posted by anonymouse

Well, if she has halfway decent lawyers, they may have gotten enough information from the manufacturer of the LCI to know a) how reliable they are and b) what information Apple was given about the reliability.

As for your comment re lawyers, that's the way the system works in this country. One benefit of this is that lawyers won't generally take a case that they don't think they have a reasonable chance of winning because they'll just end up losing money on it.

Originally Posted by skipthedog69

This liquid sensor thing is a full of crap, just another excuse for Apple not to take responsibilities for its own products.

Originally Posted by hill60

Apple and all the other phone manufacturers.

So would you rather pay more for your phones so that phone manufacturers can cover the cost of fraudulent claims?

Originally Posted by blursd

I can tell you from experience there are A LOT of people who do stupid things, or have stupid things happen to their devices and then lie about it to the Genius/Specialist and then get belligerent when they're called on it. There are also people who legitimately have an issue, and didn't violate their warranty, but there are by far the minority and usually are easier to spot out.

If you've done any sort of work at all with repairing or diagnosing Apple products it becomes evident almost half the time at a prima face glance that someone is lying. If a device really has been dunked in water, or dropped onto a hard surface you can deny it all you want, but the truth is right there in front of you. I understand no one likes having bad things happen to them, and most of the time the damage is unintentional ... just man up to it, and you're half way to a better experience when you go in for service.

I can't even count how many times I would open up computers or iPods and all the components would either be completely corroded or still covered in moisture, and the owners who get angry and continue to emphatically deny their device had ever come in contact with liquid. Its one thing when its an ambigous reading on a moisture sensor ... its another when theres a half cup of water still inside your device. They would swear up and down it had never been within a thousand miles of water, and I was trying to "cheat" them. Thats not exactly the best way to get someone to want to help you ...

Others are more comical yet more annoying. There was a person who brought in their three year, four month old computer that had been smashed into pieces, and then proceeded to tell us that not only was Apple to blame for it, but we also had to replace it with a brand new 15" MacBook Pro (she had a 15" PowerBook) and recover all the data and preinstall all her lost programs. We when we confronted her with the fact her computer had no AppleCare on it, that even if it had been covered by AppleCare; 1) AppleCare wouldn't cover accidental damage, and 2) any AppleCare she could have purchased for it would have expired four months prior. She became belligerent and started a diatribe about how Apple had "cheated" her, and it was ridiculous, and she was going to sue us personally and Apple ... blah. blah, blah.

Her view might seem melodramatic, but it is rather evocative of a common trend of customer who bring their devices in for repair -- the attitude that someone bad happened to their device that isn't covered under warranty, but Apple should still be required to fix it for free. And we're talking about some pretty spectacular and comprehensive damage in some cases. I found that car analogies tended to work quite well in getting the point across. I told this woman, "Could you buy a new car from a dealer, drive it for three years and four months, then get in an accident and take it back to the dealer and damand that they fix it for free?" Then she started going off on how cars have insurance and that AppleCare is like insurance, so it should be covered. Of course, then I had to point out that car insurance is specifically designed for covering accidents whereas AppleCare was simply an extension (not indefinite) of the factory warranty. "It's not like you can buy an iMac, walk out the door, then smash it on the sidewalk, walk back in, and say 'I'd like to have to repaired for free.'" "Why not?" she said. "Because accidental damage is not covered by AppleCare." She insightfully responded, "so if I intentionally damage my computer I AM covered!" "No," I said "if you intentionally damage your computer you're an idiot."

THESE are the type of people that cause Apple to take these actions, and they are far more common than you might believe. It was far more refreshing, and I was more inclined to help the ones that would at least tell the truth -- sometimes though the damage was so extensive there wasn't any way to help them.

If you go in and say, "Look, I know this isn't covered, but I was using my iPod and I dropped it, and now the touch interface doesn't work anymore." 9 times out of 10 the genius will try everything they can think of to fix it (within what they're allowed to do). If you come in and say "I bought this last week and now the touch screen doesn't work anymore, and you better fix it for free (even though you know you dropped it" the genius will only do as much as is required, and send you on your way with your broken iPod.

Usually, people who do or have stupid things happen to their things will find some way to blame it all on someone else no matter how much it was their own fault. I can remember;

1) The lady who tried to convince me her soft plastic cover for her solid aluminum MacBook Pro had caused the uniform 15 degree bend down the center of her computer.

2) The man who told me his iPod Touch was defective because the sides of the device did not respond to input.

3) The person who dropped their 24" iMac when they got home, and smashed the screen into oblivion - yet somehow it was Apple's fault.

4) The lady who accused me of breaking her computer when I opened it in front of her and the logic board was covered in milk ... "I didn't do that," she said "YOU did!"

5) The man who peeled back to sides to his aluminum PowerBook because he couldn't figure out how to replace the hard drive, and demanded Apple fix the damage, and replace the casing.

I could go on all day ...

Originally Posted by easy288

Deny warranty repairs = bigger profits.

I would like someone to test this indicator in a bathroom after a long hot shower.

Originally Posted by ktappe

He, like a many of us, reads the Apple news sites and blogs. And he's right--there HAVE been an awful lot of reports of false-positive moisture sensors.

Originally Posted by Askew

Nope. If you treat customers with legitimate complaints badly, you lose business.

Originally Posted by WilliamG

Moisture coming through a concrete basement floor and walls due to moist soil on the outside may be as much as 100 pints per day.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/structu/ae1204w.htm

Most Minnesota basements get quite humid in summer. Our relatively low soil temperatures chill foundation walls and floors, cooling the air. This raises the relative humidity of basements in summer.

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle.../11311346.html

The point is that Apple's specs exclude use by people who escape to their finished basement in the summer. Whether or not such an exclusion is OK is another question.

Originally Posted by atsysusa

And with regard to how the legal system in the US works you are about 180° off center. There is a myriad of lawyers who solicit and encourage litigation of this sort because they believe that merely filing suit and some discovery motions will force the Defendant into a settlement. True multi-state class actions are huge undertakings that look to a prospective settlement pool of many hundreds of millions of dollars. A claim of a defective sensor in a $500 product is not the basis for such a claim.

This situation in class actions and tort law in general will not abate until we adopt what is known as the English Rule. Loser pays. If you sue and you lose - you pay the other sides legal fees and costs. Good bye to "The Cochran Firm" "Mike Slocum Law Firm" et. al.

Originally Posted by hill60

When a customer sends it to Apple directly, it's dropped off at a post office wrapped in bubble wrap etc and sent overnight.

Originally Posted by atsysusa

Clearly you have no experience in manufacturing or purchasing: a) No manufacturer will voluntarily provide information indicating that it sells a defective product and b) Apple would not source a defective OEM product because it simply invites problems. If you are suggesting that Apple sourced the LCIs because they were known to provide false positives as a way to avoid warranty claims you are truly smoking something.

Originally Posted by atsysusa

And with regard to how the legal system in the US works you are about 180° off center. [...] This situation in class actions and tort law in general will not abate until we adopt what is known as the English Rule. Loser pays. If you sue and you lose - you pay the other sides legal fees and costs.

Originally Posted by Maximara

It also would put the average person on an even more uneven playing field against out of control groups like the RIAA then they already are on.

Originally Posted by skipthedog69

I had exactly the same problem with Apple "Genius" refusing to repair my iPhone 3GS at Sherman Oaks Apple Store just a few months ago. I never dropped it in the water, not even close, yet somehow sensor was triggered, so no matter what, they refused to take it in for a repair. The funny thing was, right next to me, another Apple "Genius" was putting one of those screen protector for a customer, SPRAYING THE SOLUTION TO HER IPHONE 3GS to apply the protector! I asked the store manager, "Can that trigger the sensor?" His reply was, "I'm not going to comment on that." And I further asked, "So if she comes back in a few minutes and claims having a problem with her iPhone, and the sensor was triggered, you are not going to honor the warranty, even if one of your "Geniuses" was the one who sprayed the solution like spraying Windex on the window?" Of course, his response was, "No comment." I have also heard the "Genius" saying the bathroom moisture can cause the sensor to trigger in some occasion. This liquid sensor thing is a full of crap, just another excuse for Apple not to take responsibilities for its own products. I miss when the Apple stores were scarce and the store employees were much nicer and passionate about their products and customers.

Originally Posted by Maximara

True but you don't want to give away the store to the jerks who want to game the system.

Originally Posted by blursd

If you've done any sort of work at all with repairing or diagnosing Apple products it becomes evident almost half the time at a prima face glance that someone is lying.

Originally Posted by skellybits

Just because you didnt witness the exposure to liquid doesnt mean it didnt happen. Sorry but i hope apple wins this one.

Originally Posted by hill60

Do you get dew inside your house?

Do you leave your electronic gear lying out on your lawn?

Originally Posted by hill60

All phone manufacturers use them apart from the cheapest phones where the cost of the sensors is too high e.g. $30 phones.

Usually they are located in the battery compartment.

They have been around for at least 10 years.

Apple is acting no differently to any other phone manufacturer in regard to this issue.

This will fail.

Originally Posted by bradleysm

This is a fine story I suppose, but the fact is that every manufacturer does it.
Every time I call Verizon for a warranty replacement on a user phone, they ask me to check the moisture indicators and remind me that if it gets back to the service center and they're triggered...I'll be billed full price for the replacement.

This is true no matter what brand of smart phone (we don't have any dumb phones in inventory) I call about; BB, Moto, Palm, etc.

Originally Posted by skottichan

But, but... people on the internet!! They said that just being in an air conditioned room will set it off!!!

Kind of amuses me, like people have said before, EVERY smartphone has a sensor, and EVERY carrier checks them, and will deny you warranty service if they're tripped. Yet, Apple's the bad guy.

Originally Posted by hill60

Having worked in the mobile phone industry for nine years I can tell that stories like these aren't confined to Apple.

Taking personal responsibility for damaging something seems to be a hard thing for people to do.

btw the gaps where a battery cover inserts into a phone provide ample space for moisture laden air to enter and condense, tripping moisture sensors.

Originally Posted by bsenka

None of my 5 iPods have ever been in/under water. All of them have their moisture sensors triggered red.

They're all off warranty and still working perfectly, so it's of no consequence to me, but the fact remains that every one of these never wet devices are indicating that they've all been submerged.

Originally Posted by Tofino

How do you know? On what do you base your opinion?

Originally Posted by r00fus

I decided to get the replacement phone, and I am very careful with it now (no setting it near glasses of water, for example)... still wonder what it'd take to trip the sensor; I wonder if putting in my workout bag with sweaty clothes is gonna screw me.

Originally Posted by Bageljoey

Well, my point is that the external sensors DO have value. The fact that they seem to have a significant level of false positives does not negate the value of the external sensors if that information is used properly.

The main value of the sensors is that it can give you a very quick indication (with only a superficial examination) that the phone has not been submerged. There is no battery door on the iPhone, so without external sensors, this would not be possible. I imagine in the vast majority of warentee visits, this would save a lot of time and hassle. Imagine if every visit involved waiting for the device to be opened up!

Now, of course I agree with you that the value of a positive indicator of an external sensor is limited, if it is true that the sensors are prone to false positives. IMO, the positives should only be used to say that further investigation is waranted.

So to say that a positive indicator can't have value because it might be a false reading is bad logic because while the real value of the indicator is in the negative reading, that cannot exist without the possibility of the other.

However, let me be clear. I am not saying that Apple's employees always use this information correctly or even that Apple's policies are correct--I do not know if their guidelines follow what I outline above. But I can easily sat that the indicator's value has to be nill because of false positives is bad reasoning.

Originally Posted by TBell

What does your issue have to do with indicator lights? Apple care generally has a good reputation. That doesn't mean it is not acting unfair in this instance.

Originally Posted by trumptman

Actually it should succeed and then people should sue all the other phone makers as well for denying claims relate to false indicators.



Again, all these companies should be sued to honor their warranty and for using false indicators to dismiss their warranties. The fact that someone hasn't done it yet, or it hasn't achieved class action status doesn't make it right or wrong.



No, actually they can all be the bad guy.



The fact that they can be tripped as you note here, for actions that are not truly damaging indicates the problem. Companies should find another way to check for moisture exposure that is accurate.



I've never, ever dropped a phone or piece of electronics into the water. My last two phones, a Motorola Razr V3m and an LG Dare all through Verizon had their dots turn red both while never being near the water. I've not checked the indicators on my iPhone but it has never been in water as well. I'm not usually one to demand government intervention but since the radio waves that make up the cell industry are auctioned by the government and thus keep competitors out, the government has an obligation to make sure the companies treat consumers appropriately considering they are being given a sanctioned cartel status.

In addition to this I hope someone sues or lawmakers demand that cell companies actually sell devices with warranties as long as the contracts they demand. It is not appropriate to sign someone to a two or three year contract, claiming it is related to subsidizing a piece of equipment only guaranteed to work one year.

Originally Posted by hill60

So would you prefer a system where phones are not replaced on the spot but are sent away for assessment by technicians who will open the phone and assess it for liquid damage as part of verifying whether replacement is warranted.

That is why they have thesE things, the high number of people with untripped sensors don't have to wait for such an assessment.

Originally Posted by Maestro64

The person suing is pointing out that cold weather and humidity can trip these sensors and I believe a number of people here have made similar claims even one person said something about taking it into the bathroom when you take a hot shower should not trips this.

Well folk if you read Apples specs they say the temp and humidity condition it design to work in and it had one catch they all saw non-condensing Humidity. If you take you phone into a condition when water may condense out of the air on to or in your phone you voided the warranty and operating conditions.

For those of you who do not understand how this can happen, here is the physics, and it pretty simple. if at any time the temperature of the phone is below the dew point of condensation temperature water which in is in air well immediately condense on the surfaces and possible inside the phone.

The higher of the humidity the smaller the delta between the air temp and the condensation temp. This happen most often in the winter. People are outside with the laptop or phone and walk inside which is higher temp and higher humidity and immediately water will condense on the cold surface of the phone of Laptop. You even wonder why when you outside with glasses on in the winter and walk into a building and your glasses fog up, this is why.

This exact condition can also trip these indicators. You all can argue whether this is fair or not but condensing humidity is outside the operating spec of the product.

Originally Posted by lvsteven

Well I've returned phones to the apple store which have a red indicator on the dock.
The phones have never been exposed to water but they've been in a humid bathroom and in my pocket in the summer.

Oh yeah, I live in las Vegas where it gets upwards of 45 C or 115 F quite often and I sweat.
On top of that we go inside/outside and the temps fluxuate between that hot and a cool 72f / 21 C air conditioned condition.

Point is they do get triggered. And apple won't deny you for one of them. But they will b triggered without actual moisture.
.

Originally Posted by Stevie

FWIW, I've heard reports of them being activated by being taken out of heavy AC and into a humid outdoors. Or by being used in the gym, while exercising.

Originally Posted by r00fus

on my 32GB 3GS with battery issues. The phone was effectively not idling, so it had a nice unusable battery standby of say, 2-3 hours.

I had previously gotten it a bit wet (minor splash from a glass of water), but as soon as I mentioned it to the store, they basically told me my options were limited, and to get a replacement I'd have to shell out $200 (which is the subsidized price, not full price, $500).

Originally Posted by WilliamG

I base my opinion on the numerous news stories written about the situation.

Originally Posted by trumptman

No one need figure out whether it is fair or not or even that the parties were thought to have agreed to it. A jury of reasonable people only need be convinced that the terms of the warranty are bad faith terms. When presented with the information above, that walking from outside a building into a building constitutes breach, the jury will find that the legal language constitutes bad faith and find for the plaintiff. Cell phones are clearly meant to be mobile and that includes moving from indoors to outdoors. If you cannot do that you were not sold a mobile phone which would be considered deceptive advertising as well.

Originally Posted by jragosta

You have it backwards. The problem is taking your phone from indoors (air conditioned) outdoors into a hot humid area. When you do that, water condenses (if you wear glasses, you know this already). That's not within Apple's control - it's simple physics/chemistry. That means that the phone gets wet when you do it - and wet phones are not covered by the warranty - no matter how much you wish they could be.

I think it's also worth pointing out that Apple consistently has the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry. If they were intentionally ripping off their customers, do you think that would be the case?

It's not bad faith at all, except possibly on the part of those people who are trying to get Apple to replace their phones after they get wet.