Apple sued over use of moisture indicators to deny free repairs - Page 3

Well, my point is that the external sensors DO have value. The fact that they seem to have a significant level of false positives does not negate the value of the external sensors if that information is used properly.

The main value of the sensors is that it can give you a very quick indication (with only a superficial examination) that the phone has not been submerged. There is no battery door on the iPhone, so without external sensors, this would not be possible. I imagine in the vast majority of warentee visits, this would save a lot of time and hassle. Imagine if every visit involved waiting for the device to be opened up!

Now, of course I agree with you that the value of a positive indicator of an external sensor is limited, if it is true that the sensors are prone to false positives. IMO, the positives should only be used to say that further investigation is waranted.

So to say that a positive indicator can't have value because it might be a false reading is bad logic because while the real value of the indicator is in the negative reading, that cannot exist without the possibility of the other.

However, let me be clear. I am not saying that Apple's employees always use this information correctly or even that Apple's policies are correct--I do not know if their guidelines follow what I outline above. But I can easily sat that the indicator's value has to be nill because of false positives is bad reasoning.

I would humbly suggest that the better method would be to look for something to trip over inside the Apple store. Steel yourself, stumble over something in the store, bang your head, spurt blood, scream for an ambulance, contact lawyer, use settlement money to buy new iPhone.

see, much better than ACTING A FOOL!





edit: This post was made in jest as this type of scenario is exactly why tort reform is needed in the US. I do not advocate the employment of these shenanigans!

All electronic devices work under "normal humidity" which I think goes upto about 60% for the iPhone.

At 60%+ humidity the phone isn't guaranteed to work. So if the indicator triggers because of that (60%+ humidity) then Apple doesn't haven't to replace it, as they say it won't work in those cases.

Duh!

We have covered the situation the indicators change the colour just because the temperature. You just go outside/inside. Or you just send the phone to the service for repair. It leaves your home with white LCIs but is delivered to the service with red ones.

http://mojejabluszko.pl/2010/02/15/ingerencja-cieczy/ (in Polish - use Google Trans)

And here is the video for the article: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mz27Mp2InE

Yes, if you reread my original post, you'll see that I did not they have some value as a negative indicator.

Good question, though, about whether Apple employees are using the indicator data correctly, or always following guidelines for their use correctly. The answer almost certainly is that not all are, regardless of what the guidelines are.

Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing. Duh!

Case in point. I was driving home from my girlfriend's house one night a number of years ago and hit a hug pothole. I pulled over to check the tire and was quite surprised to find that the rim wasn't bent and there was no bubble on the sidewall of the tire. However, I started to notice that the wheel was making a regular rhythmic noise. I knew right away that I had damaged something, probably the wheel bearing. Anyway, I took the car into the local Honda dealer and told them I was getting a weird noise from the right front tire/wheel but didn't mention that I hit a huge pothole. Anyway, they called me back a few hours later and told me they couldn't find any problem. I finally confessed that I hit a pothole and sure enough, they found the wheel bearing was damaged. The end result, I tried to pull one over on Honda for something that was my fault and failed. The repair cost me $325. The point is, I actually consider myself a pretty honest guy, but for whatever reason, I tried to get away with getting a free repair for something that was my fault.

lkrupp is absolutely right. People will lie through their teeth to get free repairs. I can attest to that.

I've also been on the other side of the equation, having done service for an A/V integrator. We got a lot of calls from people claiming various faults with their A/V systems or their custom-programmed remote controls. I can tell you that the majority of them were problems caused by user error or abuse. User error and abuse that they didn't want to own up to but that there was overwhelming evidence to support. Even when presented with the evidence, many still wouldn't own up to it. Others were like, "oh yeah, there was then time when I..."

When you have staff that works directly with the public you simply can't afford the luxury of following such a path. If I find my self in a situation where I think someone on the otherside of the counter is docking around I will not let it go. How I deal with it depends upon the situation but i can assure you they will loose more business than my own.

That depends too. If someone has truely gotten out of hand with a customer then it might be the way to go. In most cases though I would agree it would be better to send them out the back door.

The fact remains though that many people simply shouldn't be involved in direct customer contact. That isn't a slight by the way because I doubt very much that I could do the job 8 hours a day, day after day.

By the way since this is my first response in this thread I'd have to say I'm on the womans side. Apple has really been getting sleazy with their environmental specs for one thing and mosture sensors in and of themselves mean little. I understand Apples issues, especially after all the recent fraud, but there is just to much evidence that these sensors do react with mosture in the air. Think about wearing glasses and walking outside say in Florida. You know when the water condenses on your glasses forming water droplets.

As to the non-sense alluded to above, the operating specs for Apples portable toys is so narrow as to make the product unsuitable for the advertised usage. Some of Apple devices are now only spec'ed for 80 or 90 degs F. Taken at face value that makes many of Apples portable devices unsuitable for use they are sold for. Even here in the great north it has been known to get above 80 or even 90 deg every once in a while. What am I suppose to do shut the thing off everytime a nice day rolls around. As much as I like my iPhone Apple needs to be taken out to the wood shed and whipped royally. You don't engineer products for the best conditions possible but rather for what is reasonable for where you expect to sell the product or see it used.


Dave

Hopefully the plaintiff's lawyers read HardMac:

The Proof That Liquid Contact Indicator in iPhones Are NOT Reliable

Summary:

"This is a clear proof that LCI are NOT reliable and could turn red while the iPhone has been used under the defined environmental requirements defined by Apple. Here, only the condensing water could have been in contact with the sensor. In other words, even moving in and out during regular winter time will make you iPhone LCI turning red! This is a clear proof that can be used by customers who have been rejected for repair of their iPhone by Apple due to some redish or pinkish LCI... It could be correct to refuse a device under warranty if ALL LCI are red, but rejecting an iPhone for repair due to a reddish LCI in the audio jack plug is obviously not correct. Customers have now weapons to fight with Apple and potential ammunition for a legal action if an agreement can not be found."

Just a tip to those who get nowhere with a Store Manger:

Call the main Apple coprporate number. Insist on speaking with Customer Relations. They will take care of you, according to some reports I have heard.

So which other phones did they apply the same conditions too?

You know, to act as controls?

That is called proof.

What about the phones internals, was there evidence of condensation on electrical components, in which case the LCI worked.

Besides, look at the "test" which required THREE attempts to get the result they wanted.

" So, they placed the iPhone IN ITS ENCLOSURE 1 hour outside at -11° C, then moved it inside at room temperature for 24 hours. They repeated the experiment 3 times, and after the third cycle they could show that the LCI located in the audio jack plug started turning red!"

Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F (0° to 35° C)
Non operating temperature: -4° to 113° F (-20° to 45° C)
Relative humidity: 5% to 95% non condensing
Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m)

For anyone studying science, this is a very good example of how NOT to design an experiment.

What the fuck does "act of god" refer to anyway? And if one can demonstrate that there is no god does that invalidate the entire exclusion clause?

Please don't be nasty. While a waterproof product would be great, I never asked for one.

Post count doesn't necessarily mean anything - other than a cheap distraction because you are lacking a real point. Some concept of a red herring and all that...


Yes, because users self-reporting issues are very reliable. You never see people talking about ways to disguise abuse as a warranty claim. People are always 100% honest and never out to work the system for free benefits. Apple and other companies are always heartless bastards out to screw their customers.

Your right, it's obviously so black and white! What fools we all are.





Yup, your right. The self-centered entitlement mentality overwhelmingly displayed by our society, this attitude of "sticking it to the man" and the willingness to tell a little white lie here and there is totally Apple's fault.

Look, I won't deny there are documented issues with the external leak detection sensors - but I do know from personal experience that they won't outright reject a potential repair due to them alone - every time I have taken something in for repair they check both the internal and external sensors. I have had things repaired that had only the external sensors tripped. As others have stated, it's all in how you approach things and I have never had an issue with getting equipment serviced at the Genius Bar. Then again I'm not a raging asshole to the employee's with an overinflated attitude of self importance that is displayed by about half the complainers in this thread

Spot on! No repair for you! NEXT!

Uh, those are self-reported "facts" by people with a vested self-interest in the outcome.

Hardly evidence that would stand up in a court of law, for example. Internet tough guys complaining about self-reported problems hardly make a convincing argument. Your swipe at Fox news is even more deliciously ironic. Ignorant and tool are a few words floating around but I'm sure the point would be missed...

Exactly. Even as water is dripping out of the phone. When I was still with sprint, the store I went to had a repair station that was in public view. This person brought in a phone to be "repaired" and swore up and down she had no idea what the problem was. They opened the phone and as the tech was holding in the air water was dripping out of it.

Watching her feign surprise and proclaim ignorance was nauseating. And you could tell the poor tech was disgusted by what was was more likely than not toilet water.

People are assholes about this stuff. Why do you think Apple puts leak detectors in their equipment anyway? Let's be honest (ha!) - how many times have you heard people talk about warranty fraud like it's no big deal? Or talk about things that are obviously warranty fraud and honestly don't see it as such? I don't blame Apple for protecting themselves and I look forward to seeing the outcome of this case (unless they settle - and then only the lawyers "win").

Other phones are a) irrelevant and b) would not serve as controls in this test (for example, they might not use the same LCI technology). The issue I see with the test is that they had the iPhone in a sealed chamber, apparently sealed inside, then took it outside in that chamber and then brought it back. One could argue that this sealed chamber is an artificial environment that one would not encounter in actual usage.

The one point in the operating specs that seems not straightforward is the word 'noncondensing'. What exactly do they mean by this? Fog? Conditions such as going from a cool dry environment to a warm humid environment? It's also a bit of a tricky ground. There's an implied warranty of "fitness for purpose" and although they can include language in the express warranty to limit or attempt negate that, they don't have complete free reign, unless they specifically disclaim all fitness for purpose. If you live in Florida, a place the iPhone is sold, going from a cool dry environment to a warm humid environment is normal use, in which case a customer would rightly have an expectation that the iPhone (or any phone) was fit for that purpose.

I think it would help a lot if we had available a technical description of how the LCI work, which would tell us a lot about what can trigger them and the likelihood of false internal positives. This particular lawsuit was inevitable if these were ever used to deny warranty coverage and, if nothing else, I expect a lot more information on the technology and reliability of LCI to come out as a result.

This is indeed a serious problem, and I can certainly appreciate Apple's desire to avoid getting scammed into doing repairs when people have actually abused devices. After all, the warranty and APP are like an insurance plan in that the expected costs to Apple are spread out across buyers as price to cover Apple's costs. So fraudulent claims end up costing Apple money, which probably ends up costing the rest of us money.

Fortunately for most, Apple isn't so capricious as to make it's warranty decisions based on whether or not a person is "nice" or "self-deprecating." It's no doubt based on evidence, policy, and whether or not the device is covered by warranty or AppleCare. Sometimes there's a positive outcome even after the warranty has expired (a few days say), because Apple and its employees truly bend over backward to find the right solution to surprise and delight every customer whenever possible. Unfortunately for some, the evidence doesn't always lead to a happy ending.

For example, should a phone, admittedly crushed by the electric seat in a car, be replaced for free in the name of "customer service?" "Accidental damage" is just a nice way of saying any damage not caused by a defect. Of course deliberate damage wouldn't be covered either. I've heard stories of people deliberately trashing their computer thinking they would get a free replacement (it wasn't a Mac). I don't know if they were successful, but that's called "fraud." Do warranties cover theft? Uh, no...that's the purpose of insurance. AppleCare isn't insurance, it's extended service and support for the items covered by the terms and conditions.

If this suit actually makes it to court, it probably won't succeed, as it's based on at least one fundamental error if not more. If either liquid contact indicator is red, the device will be opened up to see if the internal sensors have been tripped and whatever is found inside will dictate how the process will proceed from there. If the external indicator(s) are not red, than the device doesn't have to be opened up; as another poster stated, nobody's time is wasted.

Apple also doesn't work on jail broken phones because they're not within factory specs and performance can't be warranted. It will also not warrant a device that's undergone unauthorized "repairs," and they can tell when that's happened. All this is spelled out in black and white. Should Apple honor these cases anyway? It is a business, not a charity. Even so, I'll bet they will knowingly go ahead and replace a suspect item anyway.

As for the "evidence" posted on bulletin boards, what's that worth? For that matter, what's this post worth? It's an opinion, and opinion isn't fact.

Out of curiosity, why is a phone sitting in a bathroom during a hot shower anyway? Does the person intend to answer a call if the phone rings? Won't that get it wet? Can we not be away from our electronics for ten minutes? And think of the damage to the house if there's so much humidity in the bathroom that it "might" trip a sensor. I'd be checking that place for mould and mildew. ;)

The audio on / off switch recently broke on my phone. When I took it in for repairs, the first thing the guy did was look at the moisture sensors and said they could not repair it under warrenty! Now I guess someone could have dropped their phone in the bath and then broke it to try get around their warrenty but I thought it a little odd. He was nice enough though to check the warrenty and I was past the one year mark so I didn't push it but my phone has never been dropped in water so not sure what set the sensors off. I think at a minimum they should open the phone and check the internal sensors as well before denying a claim that could be valid.

Well I doubt many people keep their phones in a deep freeze when switched off.

Now another flaw in their "experiment" is that the phone was NOT packaged as shipped i.e. it was not shrink wrapped, sealed in a zero humidity box with a silicon gel dehumidifiers.

The normal transportation of iPhones does not involve storing them at -11C, removing them from their packaging (including the shrink wrap), leaving them at room temperature for 24 hours, rewrapping and repeating.

It is an example of a poorly designed experiment to get the result you want, having to repeat it three times before they could get a result shows how well the indicators work.

Sudden temperature changes were causing this issue in cold store worker's phones, years before the iPhone was around.

Around here, the humidity goes up to 100%+ every single night all summer. The dew on the grass is a dead giveaway.

And so, it would seem that your point is that Apple need not honor the warranty due to environmental condition which occur on a daily basis for just about every customer.


I think that you are incorrect.

Do you get dew inside your house?

Do you leave your electronic gear lying out on your lawn?

Many people like to use their iPhone for music and internet radio. The shower is a good spot in which to listen to the morning news.

The bathroom routinely goes to 100% RH, even with the fan running. There is no reason to think that such conditions cause mold and mildew outside the bathroom. But if you look at many bathroom ceilings, there is minor mildew. Go figure.

This is an interesting issue. I'm not at all sure what the law says in this regard, but my feeling is that a manufacturer ought not (and ought not be allowed to) deny coverage for a specific warranty claim based on an unrelated circumstance. I think part of the problem here is that Apple doesn't really repair iPhones, just seems to replace them (Or do they? So far I haven't needed to test this). So, it's not like they just fix the switch, they issue a whole new phone.

When I leave the screen doors open, sometimes moisture will condense inside the house, depending on temperature and humidity levels. It is very common for basements to be damp due to

Dew forms when the warm moist air cools down enough so that it can no longer hold as much moisture. There is no need to be on the lawn.

And it is not unheard of to reach the dew point in the evening, while sitting around a barbecue with the phone on the picnic table.

And not only that, but finished basements are often damp due to condensation. They continuously suck moist air in through the windows which forms "dew" on all the surfaces, especially the walls. In such common cases, humidity levels are 100% RH.

The lawn? C'mon. This is a serious discussion.

Well there were articles like "Mythbusting moisture-detecting stickers/liquid submersion indicators" March 17th, 2009 by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes:

"LSIs are not triggered by high humidity, however, if that water vapor is allowed to condense then any water that condenses on the LSI will trigger it. Keeping a cellphone in a humid car overnight is enough to trigger one or more LSIs. A cellphone in your pocket might suffer the same fate."

The "More details on the immersion sensors of Apple" article points out "The indicators will not be triggered by temperature and humidity that is within the product's environmental requirements described by Apple." and then ends with "Apple indicates that these pastilles cannot turn pink without water, which is false after the tests of 3M."

So there are OTHER known ways other than submersion to trigger a LSI and 3M itself admits it. In fact the name 3M gives these things is "Water Contact Indicator Tape"--contact NOT submersion.

Apple may not be on as firm legal ground as it thinks.

You are not right. Please, read the original article. Three attempts as it is the way the iPhone goes from the phone owner to the repair service.

Nope. If you treat customers with legitimate complaints badly, you lose business.


I've done it many times. I've never activated the headphone sensor, even though I've had to wipe condensation off the iPhone.

It wouldn't upset me much if I did activate the sensor and/or trashed my phone. I'm looking for an excuse to upgrade, and my wife wouldn't be able to complain.

Water will not hurt electronics... as long as the power is off. It's only when a wet circuit board has power applied can the water cause a short circuit. If any electronics get wet, turn the power off immediately and dry the object completely. Then apply power. If it comes in contact with salt water, turn it off and immerse the object in clean water to remove the salt, then dry completely.

Manufacturers clean their boards with water. In fact, I know of some who use regular dish washing machines. I also clean old, dirty circuit boards with water and alcohol after removing them from the equipment.

Your mileage may vary.

The flip side to this is even 3M who makes these things acknowledges that they can be triggered without immersion.

Worst for Apple 3m put forth guidelines for storage of these things before installation: no more than 27°C with humidity not exceeding 40 to 60% and used with in 18 month of manufacture.

Apple specs are less than 95% humidity, non-condensing.

Especially if there is a jury trial. Lots of people have been screwed by big multinational corporations like Apple.

I expect this to settle out of court.

One big difference with the iPhone is that the user cannot immediately remove the battery, which is SOP when a typical phone gets wet.

No SOP = SOL, IMNSHO.

Moisture coming through a concrete basement floor and walls due to moist soil on the outside may be as much as 100 pints per day.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/structu/ae1204w.htm

Most Minnesota basements get quite humid in summer. Our relatively low soil temperatures chill foundation walls and floors, cooling the air. This raises the relative humidity of basements in summer.

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle.../11311346.html

The point is that Apple's specs exclude use by people who escape to their finished basement in the summer. Whether or not such an exclusion is OK is another question.

Quote: However, the filing maintains that "in actuality and contrary to what Apple represents to its customers, Apple is aware that external Liquid Submersion Indicators cannot be relied upon to establish with any reasonable degree of certainty that a Class Device has even been exposed (much less damaged by) liquid."

It goes on to claim that independent testing "has demonstrated that Liquid Submersion Indicators can be triggered by, among other things, cold weather and humidity that are within Apple's technical specifications for the Class Devices." endQuote:

None of the comments I have read so far deal with the allegations in the Complaint, particularly those cited above. Federal and State rules of Civil Procedure require that allegations be truthful. Assuming that the quoted language is accurate, how does the Plaintiff 'know' that, "Apple is aware that external Liquid Submersion Indicators cannot be relied upon. . . " She will try to elicit that information during discovery. As they say in Italian, 'Lottsa Luck.'

More substantively, has this Plaintiff actually conducted tests that can demonstrate the faults alleged? I think not. To be relevant, independent tests would have to have been conducted on the particular sensors that Apple uses and Apple would have had to have known that they speced faulty devices. Not likely given the cost and time necessary to be scientifically meaningful.

Despite what some of the posters may have experienced, this is just another example of lawyers trying to make some money without regard to the rules of evidence or ethics. I suggest that Judges have to start getting tougher with when ruling on evidence and hearing motions.

While I am happy to support this law suit, knowing full well these false positives do happen, I have personally had a differant experience when it comes to this topic.

I will say one thing before hand for one of the other posters who sounds more like an arrogant poser, that being a DICK, will get you nowhere. However, trying another tactic may very well get you another phone.

Last year sometime before the 3Gs came out, I had a pretty bad cold, fever, hot & cold sweats, in bed for a few days and under the influence of a a plethora of cold medications etc.

I woke up at some point drenched in sweat, changed and threw everything into the washer.

I forgot my phone was in the pajama pocket.

Talk about immersion, well, I would say for several cycles. When I realized what had happened obviously was too late. When I retrieved the phone, well, I thought I was screwed. I knew at the time they did not have this new policy in force and it was going to cost me $500.00 to replace, which was not exactly in the budget at the time, but I had to get a phone and sent my dear wife off to ATT to get a replacement. They gave you something off but it was a fortune, and I did not have square trade!

Anyway, I tried to dry the phone, blow dryer, radiator, it seemed totally gone, nothing, no power, no sign of life, dead. I thought I'm going to have to eat this one for sure.

Then about a week or so passed and for whatever reason I turned it on, and to my utter astonishment, it began to power up, screen came on, there were still signs of some dampness under the screen but it was coming alive.

I used the blow dryer some more, the dampness eventually disappeared, and the phone miraculously appeared to be working. I tried WIFI, working, swapped out SIm cards, working, tried several programs, all working. I couldn't believe it.

Now I had two phones. Sometime after that I decided to see if I could get a replacement, just in case there was some internal damage that might affect it down the line. I called in stating that I was having really bad reception, got an RMA, send it in, and then got this email about the immersion indicators going off and that the phone did not qualify for replacement because these indicators had gone off. I had not heard of these before, and thought, well, this is a pretty good trick Apple has come up with to protect themselves against these kinds of claims but how can they be absolutely certain that it was in fact from a total immersion and not from say sweat, or temperature differentials, how can they really be certain.

And the answer is they can't and they know it.

And they will deny your warranty,

unless,

you appeal the decision, and make a concerted effort to debate until proverbial cows come home this with this higher level supervisor, and that you present a hands down Oscar winning performance convincing this person that there has been a grievous error in your case, and that your phone has never been anywhere near a liquid substance. They will usually send you a replacement if you put in that much effort. No guarantees, in this but using a logical insistent, polite, and firm attitude will get you so much further than being an obstinate angry fool.

In my case obviously I stretched the truth a tad, yeah, so what!

After speaking to the highest level supervisor who had the authority to override the decision I did get a replacement phone after sending in a phone that was working but whose immersion indicators had all been obviously tripped.

Don't give up, be persistent, find that person at Apple who is going to help you out of the ifx your in, but don't be a jerk, that will get you nowhere, and fast.

Well, if she has halfway decent lawyers, they may have gotten enough information from the manufacturer of the LCI to know a) how reliable they are and b) what information Apple was given about the reliability.

As for your comment re lawyers, that's the way the system works in this country. One benefit of this is that lawyers won't generally take a case that they don't think they have a reasonable chance of winning because they'll just end up losing money on it.