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SproutCore debuts new HTML5 web development tools

post #1 of 72
Thread Starter 
The open source SproutCore framework--which Apple invested in to create its suite of MobileMe apps--has been cross-pollinating with HTML5 features to develop in new directions, including a new interface builder, rich support for multitouch, and a packaging system for sharing JavaScript code between projects.

At this weekend's JSConf event in Washington DC, a variety of new JavaScript-related tools were demonstrated, providing new competition to the incumbent Adobe Flash in the area of creating rich web apps, but entirely within HTML5 without needing a proprietary browser plugin.

JavaScript frameworks like SproutCore are used to ease the development of full blown web apps. Unlike Adobe's Flash, which is often used just to add interactive animations, videos or advertisements to a web page, SproutCore is intended to create rich Internet applications based entirely upon web standards, with no need for an external plugin architecture.

Apple demonstrated what could be done with SproutCore in its MobileMe apps, which debuted in mid 2008. SproutCore was used to create the highly interactive front end that users see; the web apps work within modern browsers and talk to Apple's backend servers to present mail, calendars, contacts, photo galleries, remote discovery and wipe features for iPhones, and other MobileMe features.

SproutCore is evolving as a product of Apple engineers and others who contribute to the open project. It was founded by Charles Jolley, who originated Sprout Systems in 2005 and who was subsequently hired by Apple to serve as the senior architect for its HTML5 Web Apps and MobileMe, starting in late 2006.

SproutCore Touch

At JSConf, the team presented a series of new tools leveraging HTML5. SproutCore Touch includes support for touch events and hardware acceleration on the iPhone and iPad. It is also planned to extend support to Android and Palm's webOS.

The new framework makes it easy to incorporate touch, drag, and pinch to resize features into standard HTML5 web pages within Safari, Chrome and Firefox, with bugs still being worked out for Internet Explorer. The group demonstrated a version of the native NPR app for iPad created entirely within SproutCore Touch as a web application.

A demonstration of SproutCore Touch is available at http://touch.sproutcore.com/hedwig which presents example source code and functional examples of using multitouch gestures, scrolling lists with momentum and bounce, touch-enabled graphics resizing and scaling, and support for iPad orientation-aware navigation, which works similar to Mail when shifting from portrait to landscape.




Seeds.js: a package manager for JavaScript

The SproutCore team is also working to solve the issue of how JavaScript developers can share packages of code as a library, something that is common and easy to do in other languages such as Ruby or Python.

Installing and integrating updated versions of a shared library are easy to do in other environments thanks to package manager tools, but that's are area for JavaScript that isn't well fleshed out. That's a problem for web developers, where JavaScript serves as the language for client side code that runs in the browser.

SproutCore's solution is called Seed.js. It builds upon the existing CommonJS module pattern, but adds a flexible package manager that serves as a universal CommonJS module runtime, a tool for installing, updating, removing and forking JavaScript packages, and a JavaScript-runner that can load code in a variety of different runtimes.

SproutCore reports that it has been working with Mozilla's Bespin team on the Seed CommonJS runtime for several months now, and "we're really happy with it." Bespin is Mozilla's web-based code editor project built using HTML5 and in particular the Canvas tag.

Greenhouse: an interface builder for the web

The SproutCore team is also working on a graphical interface builder for SproutCore development. Details on the new environment are sparse, but a report by Ajaxian notes that "SproutCore was actually written with tooling in mind. For example, the tool can load up your SproutCore app and suppress the main loop, and get access to your custom views."



Progress on SproutCore mutes a primary argument of users invested in Flash, that HTML5 offers no tools to help them create content. While there are few "Creative Suite" style applications for creating presentation-oriented content in HTML5, the real intent of HTML5 is not to create self contained animations, but rather to build real web content focused on semantic page markup. This original intent of the web allows browsers to interpret pages as needed to suit optimized environments ranging from mobile devices to equipment accessible to different audiences with special needs.

That means that while companies like Adobe are likely to eventually add support for HTML5 output from their code generating apps like Dreamweaver, the majority of legitimate HTML5 development will continue the same way enabling new technologies like AJAX have developed: websites built by developers using coding tools, rather than designer tools that automatically generate code intended to create content that looks the same no matter the medium.
post #2 of 72
Mobileme webmail is brought to you by SproutCore
\
post #3 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Progress on SproutCore mutes a primary argument of users invested in Flash, that HTML5 offers no tools to help them create content. While there are few "Creative Suite" style applications for creating presentation-oriented content in HTML5, the real intent of HTML5 is not to create self contained animations...

Although it appears to not be intended, this seems to argue that there will still be a place for Flash once HTML5 adoption has peaked: the creation of self-contained animations.
post #4 of 72
Apple prevented the founder of Sproutcore from giving the talk at JSConf. Do you really want to invest in a framework where Apple prevents the lead developer from talking about what SC is doing?
post #5 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

Apple prevented the founder of Sproutcore from giving the talk at JSConf. Do you really want to invest in a framework where Apple prevents the lead developer from talking about what SC is doing?

Yes I would.
post #6 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

Yes I would.

well i wouldn't.
Groupthink is bad, mkay. Think Different is the motto.
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Groupthink is bad, mkay. Think Different is the motto.
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post #7 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

Apple prevented the founder of Sproutcore from giving the talk at JSConf. Do you really want to invest in a framework where Apple prevents the lead developer from talking about what SC is doing?

What are you talking about anyways...
post #8 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Although it appears to not be intended, this seems to argue that there will still be a place for Flash once HTML5 adoption has peaked: the creation of self-contained animations.

SVG and canvas are appropriate HTML5 alternatives to Flash for animation.
post #9 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivar View Post

SVG and canvas are appropriate HTML5 alternatives to Flash for animation.

Plus CSS3 has support for basic animations as well. Certainly not a Flash substitute in itself, but it's a lightweight replacement for simple animations. It probably competes with animated GIFs more than Flash though.
post #10 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

What are you talking about anyways...

Apple muzzled the lead developer of Sproutcore because they didn't want him speaking publicly for whatever reason. He's not even allowed to confirm or deny it happened.

I'd hate for the open source framework to become as mangled as webkit, (removing pieces they don't want to commit back to the repo and linking against them, like they do with the touch version of WebKit) because apple wants to protect the IP. Especially considering most of the people working on Sproutcore now work at apple.
post #11 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

Apple muzzled the lead developer of Sproutcore because they didn't want him speaking publicly for whatever reason. He's not even allowed to confirm or deny it happened.

I'd hate for the open source framework to become as mangled as webkit, (removing pieces they don't want to commit back to the repo and linking against them, like they do with the touch version of WebKit) because apple wants to protect the IP. Especially considering most of the people working on Sproutcore now work at apple.

What are you talking about.

Touch interface is not an essential part of webkit. I am sure Google/Palm didn't put everything in Google Chrome/WebOS back into the webkit either. Why did google take out sandboxing and process isolation, which sounds more like an essential feature in a modern web browser?

also Charles Jolley as an Apple Employee, showing up at jsconf introducing Sproutcore Greenhouse might get a little confusing. He is still at the conference at some capacity.
post #12 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

Apple prevented the founder of Sproutcore from giving the talk at JSConf. Do you really want to invest in a framework where Apple prevents the lead developer from talking about what SC is doing?

Yes I certainly would!

Apple surely know what they are doing. They are about to reinvent the internet. The way you and I interact with online apps and the "mobile" web, in general, is about to change. Some plans are just not ready to be seen by the public eye. Apple clearly wants to keep certain aspects of their roadmap a secret. It is all about business and the effect of surprise. If Apple decides so, as THE main investor, it should be so!

It´s not luck that Apple is where they are today. The multi-touch web revolution has already begun... And Apple is leading the way!
I love the snappiness - I adore the sazzyness - I need the intuitive
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I love the snappiness - I adore the sazzyness - I need the intuitive
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post #13 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

What are you talking about.

Touch interface is not an essential part of webkit. I am sure Google/Palm didn't put everything in Google Chrome/WebOS back into the webkit either. Why did google take out sandboxing and process isolation, which sounds more like an essential feature in a modern web browser?

*sigh* stop being an apologist. You're telling me that the multitouch api in webkit isn't important? It's just as important as any mouse event. The only difference is that there isn't a standardize way to do it so now anyone who wants to implement a browser with a multitouch API will have to add their own implementation to webkit

Google's sandboxing is built into chrome, not webkit. They didn't take it out after the fact because they didn't want to contribute it back to webkit. That said, Chromium (the Chrome browser) is open source

Apple should not silence the developers of sproutcore.
post #14 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfabulous View Post

Yes I certainly would!

Apple surely know what they are doing. They are about to reinvent the internet. The way you and I interact with online apps and the "mobile" web, in general, is about to change. Some plans are just not ready to be seen by the public eye. Apple clearly wants to keep certain aspects of their roadmap a secret. It is all about business and the effect of surprise. If Apple decides so, as THE main investor, it should be so!

It´s not luck that Apple is where they are today. The multi-touch web revolution has already begun... And Apple is leading the way!

Perhaps you should spend a little time working with sproutcore Apple DOES NOT own sproutcore. To give them credit for the hard work the Sproutcore community has done is to give them the credit for the bad assness of the WebKit rendering engine It's insane.
post #15 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

Apple muzzled the lead developer of Sproutcore because they didn't want him speaking publicly for whatever reason. He's not even allowed to confirm or deny it happened. ...

In other news, Barack Obama let me in on his secret plans for UFOs to assist America in colonising Mars next year, but he swore everyone involved to secrecy, and no one's allowed to even say we were sworn to secrecy either. ZOMG!
post #16 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

In other news, Barack Obama let me in on his secret plans for UFOs to assist America in colonising Mars next year, but he swore everyone involved to secrecy, and no one's allowed to even say we were sworn to secrecy either. ZOMG!

Confirm or deny is a little bit different than saying "no" "if it did happen " is confirmation… Besides, why else would the SC guys be here saying "well, he did attend JSConf at some capacity" It's not too difficult to reach… why don't you ask him yourself.
post #17 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivar View Post

SVG and canvas are appropriate HTML5 alternatives to Flash for animation.

Basic shape and painting/animating functions are appropriate alternatives?
I doubt that HTML5 is ready to trump Flash in animation in the near future. Video, sure, but definitely not animation.
post #18 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

*sigh* stop being an apologist. You're telling me that the multitouch api in webkit isn't important? It's just as important as any mouse event. The only difference is that there isn't a standardize way to do it… so now anyone who wants to implement a browser with a multitouch API will have to add their own implementation to webkit…

Google's sandboxing is built into chrome, not webkit. They didn't take it out after the fact because they didn't want to contribute it back to webkit. That said, Chromium (the Chrome browser) is open source…

Apple should not silence the developers of sproutcore.

What are you talking about Webkit is a rendering engine, nothing more, nothing less.

If Apple leave those things in there, people will be crying Apple's trying to pollute the open source Webkit with their proprietary crap.
post #19 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

What are you talking about Webkit is a rendering engine, nothing more, nothing less.

If Apple leave those things in there, people will be crying Apple's trying to pollute the open source Webkit with their proprietary crap.

Do you understand how this stuff works?
post #20 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

Do you understand how this stuff works?

do you understand what you are talking about?
post #21 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

That means that while companies like Adobe are likely to eventually add support for HTML5 output from their code generating apps like Dreamweaver, the majority of legitimate HTML5 development will continue the same way enabling new technologies like AJAX have developed: websites built by developers using coding tools, rather than designer tools that automatically generate code

Actually, the former (authoring tools as opposed to coding tools) was the vision of Tim Berners Lee.
post #22 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

Apple prevented the founder of Sproutcore from giving the talk at JSConf. Do you really want to invest in a framework where Apple prevents the lead developer from talking about what SC is doing?

It's licensed under the MIT license which is very liberal and flexible -- much more so than GPL in fact. Do you really want to invest in a platform tightly locked down by the GPL? (ie, Android?)
post #23 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterJoe View Post

It's licensed under the MIT license which is very liberal and flexible -- much more so than GPL in fact. Do you really want to invest in a platform tightly locked down by the GPL? (ie, Android?)

I'm not talking about Android, and android is not a web app framework.
post #24 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

Do you understand how this stuff works?

I find this article extremely interesting and would like to see constructive comments on it. But I find it annoying that the ony person who is extemely negative is you. And that all 6 posts you've done seem to be on this topic. Interesting.
post #25 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

*sigh* stop being an apologist. You're telling me that the multitouch api in webkit isn't important? It's just as important as any mouse event. The only difference is that there isn't a standardize way to do it so now anyone who wants to implement a browser with a multitouch API will have to add their own implementation to webkit

Google's sandboxing is built into chrome, not webkit. They didn't take it out after the fact because they didn't want to contribute it back to webkit. That said, Chromium (the Chrome browser) is open source

Apple should not silence the developers of sproutcore.

Are you mentally challenged?

He's employed by Apple.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesjolley
post #26 of 72
Web development, despite progress, still sucks and cannot be fixed with frameworks and more abstraction.
post #27 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Although it appears to not be intended, this seems to argue that there will still be a place for Flash once HTML5 adoption has peaked: the creation of self-contained animations.

Not exactly. It would just mean a different tool would be used to generate HTML5 output.
post #28 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Are you mentally challenged?

He's employed by Apple.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesjolley

You missed my first post? They were going to take his job away if he gave the demo.
post #29 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

You missed my first post? They were going to take his job away if he gave the demo.

I see you don't see the conflict of interest... nvm then.
post #30 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

I see you don't see the conflict of interest... nvm then.

Apple has their reasons, but they won't let their lead developer speak publically. :/
post #31 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

You missed my first post? They were going to take his job away if he gave the demo.

He would have violated the terms of his NDA. Then again you've never worked at Apple.
post #32 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

He would have violated the terms of his NDA. Then again you've never worked at Apple.

His NDA regarding his work on open source software? My point...
post #33 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by esummers View Post

Not exactly. It would just mean a different tool would be used to generate HTML5 output.

However the article says the real intent of HTML5 is "not to create self-contained animations but rather to build real web content focused on semantic page markup". By implication then, if Flash's primary intent is (or becomes) to provide self-contained animations, then Flash may live on by providing a better developer and user experience than HTML5 (and its associated tools) in this particular area.
post #34 of 72
From the description of this technology, it sounds like it violates Apple's recent terms of service. It enables developers to build programs not using standard HTML 5, and not using Objective C.

Seems like a double standard. So what else is new?

post #35 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

That means that while companies like Adobe are likely to eventually add support for HTML5 output from their code generating apps like Dreamweaver, the majority of legitimate HTML5 development will continue the same way enabling new technologies like AJAX have developed: websites built by developers using coding tools, rather than designer tools that automatically generate code intended to create content that looks the same no matter the medium.

Adobe is missing a huge opportunity to be out in front of the HTML5 tools market. Baffling...

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MD481LL/A MD388LL/A ME344LL/A

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MD481LL/A MD388LL/A ME344LL/A

Reply
post #36 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecologylab View Post

From the description of this technology, it sounds like it violates Apple's recent terms of service. It enables developers to build programs not using standard HTML 5, and not using Objective C.

Seems like a double standard. So what else is new?


Apple specifically mentioned Javascript in 3.3.1 in the allowed languages, along with C and C++. but then again, apple does not control SC.
post #37 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

His NDA regarding his work on open source software? My point...

The 2 are not mutually exclusive. You can have an NDA and be working on open source - just because he is working on open source does not mean ALL he does for Apple is to be freely discussed.

I have read all you rants to this point but I seemed to have missed the one where you gave any backup to you claims that Apple was muzzling him or threatening to fire him.

If you have something new feel free to respond - if not we have all heard over and over how we "fail to understand".

Hope you have a better day - seem awfully frustrated at this point.
post #38 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damn_Its_Hot View Post

The 2 are not mutually exclusive. You can have an NDA and be working on open source - just because he is working on open source does not mean ALL he does for Apple is to be freely discussed.

I have read all you rants to this point but I seemed to have missed the one where you gave any backup to you claims that Apple was muzzling him or threatening to fire him.

If you have something new feel free to respond - if not we have all heard over and over how we "fail to understand".

Hope you have a better day - seem awfully frustrated at this point.

Talk to him yourself. Like I said, he's not difficult to reach.
post #39 of 72
Good to see some healthy competition getting on between sproutcore and cappuccino.

Atlas is already available as beta, but it's not really close to feature-complete, so greenhouse has more than enough chance to catch up.

Cappuccino is also working on touch as well...
post #40 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleLover1234 View Post

His NDA regarding his work on open source software? My point...

Having worked at NeXT, Apple, Platinum International and others, my NDA is my boundary for employment, period, without question.

You don't like it you don't sign it and you don't get the job.
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