[quote]God creates us and the world. Life is predetermined. In God's eyes, you are already in heaven or hell. Tell me, what is free will when your fate is sealed? It's "free will" to us because we don't know, that's all. It's an illusion to us because we don't know.<hr></blockquote>
Wow!!! A grand pronouncement by the almighty spiritual sage Groverat!
What piece of trendy pop-theology have you been digesting?
To (roughly) quote Carl Sagan (RIP): "Extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence. Lets see the evidence".
Can't we all just admit that to date we just don't know (yet) about the hows whats and whys this universe and (human) consciousness came into being? I really doubt that that analysing some writings from 2000-3500 years back from some arbitrary group of humans in the middle east is going to provide us with concrete and rational answers.
All those weird happenings in Exodus (and others), such as what Moses witnessed on Sinai, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the 'burning bush', the pillar of cloud/fire, and Ezekiel's visions of "metal shields" in the sky etc. etc. etc. were events attributed to "God". I'm no fan of von Daniken etc, but 'technological' and 'human' (or alien??) explanations for these events sound more rational than some "God-of-the-entire-Universe" suddenly paying close attention to some band of displaced people wandering the desert in search of a home.
We love to explain (or attempt to) by attributing human catastrophes to mythical forces outside of ourselves, such as Satan in the case of 9-11 (or gay men, the counterculture and liberals if you subscribe to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell's wacky point of view). It's all part of human reluctance to take responsibility for humanity's grossest actions. 9-11 was the result of peoples'
actions only, by desperate men, brainwashed, bound and gagged by the total inhuman, authoritarian and unrealistic nature of religion gone mad (yet again, yet again, yet again).
But I'm not here going to say that there is no Devil, and no God, because I have no satisfactory proof or evidence back up that claim. Similarly, when people go bandying on about God, or angels, or Satan or whatever, can you all give us something convincing
, evidence, exhibits A, B and C to support your wild claims...the type of that would stand up in a court of law?
Perhaps the reluctance to drop the "God" thing is because we are as a species, individually and collectively scared witless that we may after all be merely a collection of cells and electrical charges, and we need some justification for our existence, and once we have spent our 77 odd years on this little ball of spinning rock, that may just be the end of it all, and life after death may be just a result of mass-wishful thinking, (or a suspension of rational thought perhaps, considering the overwhelming lack of evidence for life after death?) Is our individual consciousness an illusion of brain chemistry? I don't know, and neither does anyone else.
Can't we just for now, until science comes to our rescue, drop our arrogance and admit that we just have no clue?