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9/11 - Page 2

post #41 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by TigerWoods99:
<strong>9-11, I'm so sick of that word.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh poor baby. It's almost as if you have to jump from the 95th floor yourself. I feel your pain.
post #42 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by TigerWoods99:
<strong>9-11, I'm so sick of that word.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sick of your signature...change that Tiga Tiga Tiga loser.
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post #43 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by _ alliance _:
<strong>no. u got it all wrong. God gave us free will. we either choose to accept him, or we choose the world. the choice that he gave us is what determines our outcome. we choose our own path. dont say that things are pre-destined just cause we believe in God. the whole basis of the Christian faith is that we choose to follow right or wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>

absolutely not. Christians believe that god is all knowing and all powerful. it is impossible to think that with those 2 things that we still have free will. some may not want to admit it but if you are a christian you most certainly have to believe that everything is predetermined
post #44 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

Cut it out people! Greedy? This is how these guys earn a living. Scott, they were paid $1 million of which they've said they would keep enough to cover their expenses and donate the rest to some charity.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What the hell do they care about the $ from this? I mean with this on their resume, they can get any job they want--do any project they want... they are made for the rest of their lives... they dont need $ from this documentary, they will make it somewhere else!!
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post #45 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

Oh poor baby. It's almost as if you have to jump from the 95th floor yourself. I feel your pain.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just because he's sick of hearing 9/11 doesn't mean he doesn't feel bad for the families of the people who lost their lives. People are entitled to feel however they want without people like you making stupid comments.
post #46 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:
<strong>

Just because he's sick of hearing 9/11 doesn't mean he doesn't feel bad for the families of the people who lost their lives. People are entitled to feel however they want without people like you making stupid comments.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sure but sometimes that means they are whinny babies.

[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #47 of 92
Back to the God thing for a sec, this is the only post I intend to post on this subject. I personally am a very strong Christian, and I believe fully in free will. One of the reasons for this, is I have seen people who have chosen wrong, even though they are Christians. If people did not have free will, then choice would not exist to be able to choose to love God or not, hence, it would not be love. Secondly, I want to say that I am not trying to force this on others. I am merely stating what I believe personally to be true. The reason I believe is because of how much my life has changed since I put my faith in God. I can honestly say that without Him in my life, I would have killed myself many years ago. I think we all need to remember to not respond negatively to those who believe differently, as that just will reflect negatively on one's own self.

I now want to express my own sympathy for those who were 1)In the attacks, and 2) Those effected by it. I personally knew at least one person who was killed, and knew (not as well) a couple of others. It is aweful that anyone would consider killing another human being, no matter for what cause it pertains to.
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1 Peter 1:6-7
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post #48 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>

absolutely not. Christians believe that god is all knowing and all powerful. it is impossible to think that with those 2 things that we still have free will. some may not want to admit it but if you are a christian you most certainly have to believe that everything is predetermined</strong><hr></blockquote>

God gave us a choice. choose Him...or choose the world. simple as that. go look it up. thats how it is.
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post #49 of 92
alliance:

God created us and the world.

Saying "go read it" is the tool of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

I've read the Bible, 3 times as a matter of fact, have you? If you'd like to thump with me I'd be happy to oblige.

God creates us and the world. Life is predetermined. In God's eyes, you are already in heaven or hell. Tell me, what is free will when your fate is sealed?

It's "free will" to us because we don't know, that's all. It's an illusion to us because we don't know.


Scott:

Remove your head from your ass immediately. Those two Frenchmen did more to help the victims of 9-11 than you ever have. They risked their lives repeatedly, facing loss, only to help strangers.
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post #50 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>alliance:

God created us and the world.

Saying "go read it" is the tool of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

I've read the Bible, 3 times as a matter of fact, have you? If you'd like to thump with me I'd be happy to oblige.

God creates us and the world. Life is predetermined. In God's eyes, you are already in heaven or hell. Tell me, what is free will when your fate is sealed?

It's "free will" to us because we don't know, that's all. It's an illusion to us because we don't know.


</strong><hr></blockquote>

ok, tell me this grover. if u assume that yer going to hell, are u gonna go and kill a bunch of people and then commit suicide cause theres no hope in yer mind??? or would u try to make yer life better and commit yer life to God? THAT is the choice. u can choose to continue in sin, or change for the better. if u just go blindly along assuming that life is just gonna happen, nothin will happen. u must make it happen. therefore, u have the choice to do it or not. in the same way, if u assume yer going to heaven, are u gonna slack off and start living a sinful life cause u are going to heaven no matter what??? all in all, you ARE making decisions.

btw, when i said "go read it" i was telling him to try reading before acting like he knows everything. i said something, and if he cares enuff to actually understand it, then he could read about it. simple as that. im not gonna sit here and preach the entire bible to someone online. also, the bible is full of interpretation. what u might see one way, someone else might see another way. whats important is how it all fits in yer individual life and the circumstances surrounding it.
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post #51 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by _ alliance _:
<strong>
ok, tell me this grover. if u assume that yer going to hell, are u gonna go and kill a bunch of people and then commit suicide cause theres no hope in yer mind??? or would u try to make yer life better and commit yer life to God? THAT is the choice.</strong><hr></blockquote>

that's not a choice. god already knows what you would "choose". every choice you make god already knew about and had "planned" out.
post #52 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>

that's not a choice. god already knows what you would "choose". every choice you make god already knew about and had "planned" out.</strong><hr></blockquote>

this is a difficult thing to imagine...
i believe that we each have a destiny, or rather many potential destinies. however, i dont think its as set as u seem to imply. we could end in glory, or in shame. that all depends on our own personal decisions. i could go right now and shoot some dude in a fit of rage, just cause i felt like it--or to see what happens in the afterlife. or...i could restrain myself and live according to my original "plan." each decision we make changes the future dramatically. if i go right one day instead of left, that action will change the rest of the day, and potentially the rest of my life. i have seen this in action--i have tested it. u could just say, "well it was that way cause thats how it was meant to be." but i know better. theres more to it than that. we are given the freedom of choice through it all. u obviously are a fatalist. ironically enuff, ive been called a fatalist myself...but yet i believe in free will...
go figure...
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post #53 of 92
What you have is the illusion of free will if you believe that God that created you.

Making decisions, choosing paths, blah blah blah... those are choices because you don't know what you are going to do yet. God does know, you've already killed or not killed. You've already had kids or not had kids.

Eternity isn't a linear progression, it's a circle. If God is infinite and your creatorthen there can be no free will because you are, therefore, not infinite.

I make a small snowball and a mountain covered with snow. I know that the mountain is smooth because I made it. I tell the wind not to blow. I set the ball at the top and watch it roll down. the snowball has no choice but to grow.
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post #54 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>What you have is the illusion of free will if you believe that God that created you.

Making decisions, choosing paths, blah blah blah... those are choices because you don't know what you are going to do yet. God does know, you've already killed or not killed. You've already had kids or not had kids.

Eternity isn't a linear progression, it's a circle. If God is infinite and your creatorthen there can be no free will because you are, therefore, not infinite.

I make a small snowball and a mountain covered with snow. I know that the mountain is smooth because I made it. I tell the wind not to blow. I set the ball at the top and watch it roll down. the snowball has no choice but to grow.</strong><hr></blockquote>

true enuff. its the circular peridox that makes this so hard to put into words and even to imagine. we think in only 3 dimensions...
ok well i wont argue anymore--we each believe what we believe...
and im tired...
gonna go watch jon stewart now. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
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post #55 of 92
Thread Starter 
we just had this topic in my religion class at school. I have a really great teacher and he really makes your mind hurt if you know what I mean.

pretty interesting stuff when you start thinking about it hard.
post #56 of 92
just because "God" "knows" what we will choose to do, it does not mean that it has been predetermined by Him... It is still our choice... he has no real control over it...
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post #57 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by psantora:
<strong>just because "God" "knows" what we will choose to do, it does not mean that it has been predetermined by Him... It is still our choice... he has no real control over it...</strong><hr></blockquote>

if he is all knowing and all powerful he has control of everything.

i think it is against christian belief to think he does NOT have control of everything.
post #58 of 92
He has the control to let us make our own choices.. if thats the way he wants it to be--thats the way it will be... he wants us to have free will..... i mean whats the point of love if you do not have a choice in the matter? without choice, the whole idea of God loving us does not make sence...
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post #59 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Scott:

Remove your head from your ass immediately. Those two Frenchmen did more to help the victims of 9-11 than you ever have. They risked their lives repeatedly, facing loss, only to help strangers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Get a grip you mindless asshole. Oh and go **** yourself while you're at it. All I did was suggest that they were making money on it and then later said that in fact I don't begrudge them for it because they got some important footage. So **** you.
post #60 of 92
Scott, being the whining troll that you are, there is ample reason to believe that the reason you bring up monetary compensation is because they are French.

Do you question the motives of fire department workers?

They didn't just shoot footage, they dug for bodies for hours after the buildings collapsed. You will laud the FDNY as heroes but merely "not begrudge" some Frenchmen making a few bucks for their work.

What if I were to inject "Well, I bet the firemen are getting fat overtime checks" into a thread about their heroic actions?

Your attitudes and gripes are well-documented and pervasive, Scott. Just leave it alone.
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post #61 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Scott, being the whining troll that you are, there is ample reason to believe that the reason you bring up monetary compensation is because they are French.

Do you question the motives of fire department workers?

They didn't just shoot footage, they dug for bodies for hours after the buildings collapsed. You will laud the FDNY as heroes but merely "not begrudge" some Frenchmen making a few bucks for their work.

What if I were to inject "Well, I bet the firemen are getting fat overtime checks" into a thread about their heroic actions?

Your attitudes and gripes are well-documented and pervasive, Scott. Just leave it alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>


You assume to much. I brought it up becuase it was an issue on a teevee talk show related to CBS I was watching the other night. So **** off. Why don't you "just leave it alone" asshole.

The firemen get paid to help people live. The people who shot the video are making money by video taping people dying. Get the difference? I'm sure you don't or you wouldn't have brought it up in teh first place.

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #62 of 92
[quote]The firemen get paid to help people live. The people who shot the video are making money by video taping people dying.<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for proving my point.
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post #63 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>The people who shot the video are making money by video taping people dying.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just to put some of this in perspective, morticians get paid from people dying too. Some judges get paid to give people the death penalty. Our U.S. military is getting paid to kill people all over the world. That's not my argument either way on your...discussion, just an observation.

As a broadcaster, I can't get upset that someone got paid for the CBS show. In this world, you get paid for services you render. If that means creating a documentary on September 11th, so be it. It was a meaningful experience for nearly all who viewed it, so let it be.

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>
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post #64 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by psantora:
<strong>
What the hell do they care about the $ from this? I mean with this on their resume, they can get any job they want--do any project they want... they are made for the rest of their lives... they dont need $ from this documentary, they will make it somewhere else!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

1.) True, but you could put a gun to my head and I still wouldn't care how much money they got.

2.) They've probably already done their best work. They'll never again do anything as important as this.

3.) I hope my friend (the one whose cousin died at the WTC) and the rest of his family didn't watch it.

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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post #65 of 92
WARNING: I haven´t seen the documentary yet and write this only on the basis of what I have read about it.

I don´t think they are heroes or anything like that. They were cameramen doing their biggest scoop. As I see it they either.

1. Just reacted per reflects and just started filming. Many of those who did heroic acts like helping people down the stairs at the risk of their own lifes aso and later died have probably done the same to shut out the terrible happening around them.

2. Was very aware and calculated their scoop up against the risk to their lifes.

Neither of these possibilities makes them heroes but nowhere the opposite either despite what they got from it.

But what I am much more concerned about is what is going on in war zones. Remember Sniper Street? Among journalists who were there its well known that some of them paid locals to cross areas where they risked to get shot to get good pictures (not of people dying but an area where people run for their lifes instead of an empty field). And in other conflicts (also in Afghanistan) locals are paid to film in high risk areas where western journalist don´t dare to go. This is awful behavour.
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post #66 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

1.) True, but you could put a gun to my head and I still wouldn't care how much money they got.

2.) They've probably already done their best work. They'll never again do anything as important as this.

3.) I hope my friend (the one whose cousin died at the WTC) and the rest of his family didn't watch it.

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
2) I expect that they will never do anything as important at this, the contrary will be very sad



3)I think that your friend and his family have watch it or will watch it. In this case the family want to know, how was the last moments of his life. I said that because, on all the reports of process of murderer, the family want to know how the member of the family has died even if the truth is horrible.

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
post #67 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>WARNING: I haven´t seen the documentary yet and write this only on the basis of what I have read about it.

I don´t think they are heroes or anything like that. They were cameramen doing their biggest scoop. As I see it they either.

1. Just reacted per reflects and just started filming. Many of those who did heroic acts like helping people down the stairs at the risk of their own lifes aso and later died have probably done the same to shut out the terrible happening around them.

2. Was very aware and calculated their scoop up against the risk to their lifes.

Neither of these possibilities makes them heroes but nowhere the opposite either despite what they got from it.

But what I am much more concerned about is what is going on in war zones. Remember Sniper Street? Among journalists who were there its well known that some of them paid locals to cross areas where they risked to get shot to get good pictures (not of people dying but an area where people run for their lifes instead of an empty field). And in other conflicts (also in Afghanistan) locals are paid to film in high risk areas where western journalist don´t dare to go. This is awful behavour. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, indeed during the interview they where very humble, just confirming that they reacted by reflex. As you said they never, pretended to be heroe, just the rights guys at the rights place. Anyway their testimony are very important both for beeing the whitness of the drama, and for analysis about the fantastic job commited byÂ*the firemen.

I do not see this testimony, but i have ear that we do not see dead guy in this report, just ear horrible noise coming from falling corpse outside the building.

I will be more upset, if a producer will make many money with a moovie reconstitution of the drama.
post #68 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>The firemen get paid to help people live. The people who shot the video are making money by video taping people dying. Get the difference? I'm sure you don't or you wouldn't have brought it up in teh first place.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The brother who went into the WTC Tower 1 lobby was not a professional. When he first entered the lobby he heard then saw victims burning from the jet fuel right next to him. He decided not to film their suffering...in some ways the worst decision a professional could do. But he felt for them and didn't record their suffering.

Most professionals damn the torpedos and just shoot...with him that came later. It became so overwhelming he had no choice. Uh, I don't know where I am going with this but Scott H...it is a job...that's what they get paid to do. To record events as they happen. When they happen. Impartially.

"Someone had to be the messenger and I guess we were chosen for this..." the other brother said in the beginning of the documentary.
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post #69 of 92
One of the brothers is now a naturalized citizen. The other's apllication is still pending.
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post #70 of 92
Regarding the 9/11 on CBS, I think that this was well done and in very good taste. The filmers clearly stated that they were doing a documentary on the firemen. It was really good to see that first and get a bit of a background on the men in that firehouse.

For all the footage they had, it was impressive that only the initial plane's impact was shown on TV. I kinda wonder how that happened.

They had plently of chances to film horrible stuff (dead people, body parts..) the one filmer was someone on fire, he said "I refused to film them because nobody should have to see that". That is class.

Overall this was an amazing experience at seeing what it was like being right at "ground zero".
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post #71 of 92
my moms birthday is on the now offical 9-11 memorial day...I am annoyed with that but..whatever.

as for god existing or not...you really think that god doesn't exist because thousands of people died in _america_
so does god exist when millions of people die all over the world in even more tragic circumstances? it is very selfish thinking that god is betraying america, or doesn't exist or "how could this happen...where was god?", when millions all over the world who believe in a god or multiple gods or whatever..die all the time of starvation and neglect, sometimes indirectly caused by America.
its like when something is working for you, love it, but when it works against you, you hate it.
or vice-versa...don't get me wrong, I think that it was tragedy, no one deserves the fate bestowed upon them by imbeciles and hypocritical fanatics that have forgotten what their TRUE purpose is, I grieve for the lives lost on 9-11, Its a terrible shame, but I also grieve for lives lost all over the world, to situatins just as dire or more so. america has become such a superpower that its like...we can destroy whoever whenever but when they hit us all of a sudden its "where's our god?"
and that mentality annoys me.

I personally don't really beieve in god, although I have no basis for disbelieving or for believing so I remain relativly unaffiliated(I was born unaffiliated...i was baptized episcipalian when i was like 13, and I skipped my confirmation when I was 14, so technically I don't belong to the church anymore)

I think that what happened on sept. 11th, was totally ****ed up, alot of innocent people who I'm sure had NOTHING against muslims, were killed by crazy fanatics that THINK they are supposed to kill people just because....when in reality, no one should ever kill anyone just because...and islam tells us that all are equal, christians, jews, muslims alike, all followers of the same god, only they are following different paths, but we are not suposed to hate or kill others because we will all meet the same destination anyway.
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post #72 of 92
WrongRobot:

Generally I don't give a shit because it's not my country. If I spent every moment that someone died in despair I would live my life in despair.

Take your moral lesson and shove it up your ass. Thanks.

(Of course, I also don't celebrate in the streets with Palestinians die...)
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post #73 of 92
You! Yes, you! You know who you are!

Can we please keep the personal abuse to a minimum? Or at least e-mail each other the nasty insults so everyone else doesn't have to share? Thank you.

[Edit: And this goes for the Israelis and Palestinians, too.]

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
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post #74 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>You! Yes, you! You know who you are!

Can we please keep the personal abuse to a minimum? Or at least e-mail each other the nasty insults so everyone else doesn't have to share? Thank you.

[Edit: And this goes for the Israelis and Palestinians, too.]

</strong><hr></blockquote>

In that case, Belle check your e-mail.

J <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

PS Just kidding, love ya really!

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Jamie ]</p>
post #75 of 92
[quote]God creates us and the world. Life is predetermined. In God's eyes, you are already in heaven or hell. Tell me, what is free will when your fate is sealed? It's "free will" to us because we don't know, that's all. It's an illusion to us because we don't know.<hr></blockquote>

Wow!!! A grand pronouncement by the almighty spiritual sage Groverat! What piece of trendy pop-theology have you been digesting?
To (roughly) quote Carl Sagan (RIP): "Extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence. Lets see the evidence".

Can't we all just admit that to date we just don't know (yet) about the hows whats and whys this universe and (human) consciousness came into being? I really doubt that that analysing some writings from 2000-3500 years back from some arbitrary group of humans in the middle east is going to provide us with concrete and rational answers.

All those weird happenings in Exodus (and others), such as what Moses witnessed on Sinai, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the 'burning bush', the pillar of cloud/fire, and Ezekiel's visions of "metal shields" in the sky etc. etc. etc. were events attributed to "God". I'm no fan of von Daniken etc, but 'technological' and 'human' (or alien??) explanations for these events sound more rational than some "God-of-the-entire-Universe" suddenly paying close attention to some band of displaced people wandering the desert in search of a home.

We love to explain (or attempt to) by attributing human catastrophes to mythical forces outside of ourselves, such as Satan in the case of 9-11 (or gay men, the counterculture and liberals if you subscribe to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell's wacky point of view). It's all part of human reluctance to take responsibility for humanity's grossest actions. 9-11 was the result of peoples' actions only, by desperate men, brainwashed, bound and gagged by the total inhuman, authoritarian and unrealistic nature of religion gone mad (yet again, yet again, yet again).

But I'm not here going to say that there is no Devil, and no God, because I have no satisfactory proof or evidence back up that claim. Similarly, when people go bandying on about God, or angels, or Satan or whatever, can you all give us something convincing, evidence, exhibits A, B and C to support your wild claims...the type of that would stand up in a court of law?

Perhaps the reluctance to drop the "God" thing is because we are as a species, individually and collectively scared witless that we may after all be merely a collection of cells and electrical charges, and we need some justification for our existence, and once we have spent our 77 odd years on this little ball of spinning rock, that may just be the end of it all, and life after death may be just a result of mass-wishful thinking, (or a suspension of rational thought perhaps, considering the overwhelming lack of evidence for life after death?) Is our individual consciousness an illusion of brain chemistry? I don't know, and neither does anyone else.

Can't we just for now, until science comes to our rescue, drop our arrogance and admit that we just have no clue?
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #76 of 92
Is it just me, or do Born Again Christians and all ultra religious people in general sound like mind controlled psychos? No offense but every born again I've ever known has been either a drunk, criminal, or druggie in his/her past and turned ultra religious (so they say) to atone for their past. I would personally trust an atheist more than an ultra religious person. No bullshit, nothing to hide, and no preaching......................
post #77 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>
But I'm not here going to say that there is no Devil, and no God, because I have no satisfactory proof or evidence back up that claim. Similarly, when people go bandying on about God, or angels, or Satan or whatever, can you all give us something convincing, evidence, exhibits A, B and C to support your wild claims...the type of that would stand up in a court of law? </strong><hr></blockquote>


To those of you who require this "evidence," you're not going to get it. That's kind of the whole idea of choosing to BELIEVE. I will probably never be able to give you an Exhibit A, B, or C that God absolutely exists. Honestly, there is none.

I choose to believe for my own peace of mind, and what beliefs I have had have been backed up by my own experiences and the testimonies of others.

On the flip side of your wanting proof of God's existance, I'd love for someone to come up with evidence that unequivvicably proves that God DOES NOT exist. I doubt anyone can do that, either.

Again, it's all about what you choose to believe in.

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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post #78 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>Is it just me, or do Born Again Christians and all ultra religious people in general sound like mind controlled psychos? No offense but every born again I've ever known has been either a drunk, criminal, or druggie in his/her past and turned ultra religious (so they say) to atone for their past. I would personally trust an atheist more than an ultra religious person. No bullshit, nothing to hide, and no preaching......................</strong><hr></blockquote>

most atheists don't care to preach their views, whereas die-hard religous nuts...thats all they do.
I think its sad when people just say " :o h that was god's work" or "god is smiling on me today" and"god this..."" god that"

god milk?

I guess its in my nature to be open and try and see things from many angles...it seems that if you fervidly believe in god, your ability to see all the perspectives becomes very narrow.
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #79 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by CosmoNut:
<strong>


To those of you who require this "evidence," you're not going to get it. That's kind of the whole idea of choosing to BELIEVE. I will probably never be able to give you an Exhibit A, B, or C that God absolutely exists. Honestly, there is none.

I choose to believe for my own peace of mind, and what beliefs I have had have been backed up by my own experiences and the testimonies of others.

On the flip side of your wanting proof of God's existance, I'd love for someone to come up with evidence that unequivvicably proves that God DOES NOT exist. I doubt anyone can do that, either.

Again, it's all about what you choose to believe in.

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I remember hearing about someone who mathmatically disproved the existence of god


then mathmatically proved it
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #80 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:

<strong>Is it just me, or do Born Again Christians and all ultra religious people in general sound like mind controlled psychos? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't know many Christians, huh?

[quote]<strong>No offense but every born again I've ever known has been either a drunk, criminal, or druggie in his/her past and turned ultra religious (so they say) to atone for their past. I would personally trust an atheist more than an ultra religious person. No bullshit, nothing to hide, and no preaching......................</strong><hr></blockquote>

There are no alcoholic atheists? No atheists who use drugs? Or committ crime? You can't really believe this so why the bullshit? What are you hiding?
shooby doo, shooby doo
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shooby doo, shooby doo
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