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Adobe abandons development of Flash-to-iPhone porting software - Page 3

post #81 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

by that logic microsoft would have never worked as closely with adobe to optimise flash for windows as the adobe boys want us to believe when they lay the blame for flash performance on the mac at apple's feet.

The alleged cooperation would have been years earlier when Macromedia was in charge. Silverlight is relatively new, only a couple years old. I would assume the warm relations between Adobe and MS has cooled considerably over the Silverlight launch.

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post #82 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The alleged cooperation would have been years earlier when Macromedia was in charge. Silverlight is relatively new, only a couple years old. I would assume the warm relations between Adobe and MS has cooled considerably over the Silverlight launch.

no wonder Flash sucks on both Mac and windows....
It must be blazingly fast on Linux
post #83 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

well, it may have something to do with mike chambers being very selective about approving any opposing posts. so much for the 'open platform' he's bragging about. i find it hilarious that adobe's 'flash evangelist' and the 'project manager for flash' are out in full force over this.

Eh... I've had dealings with Mike Chambers in the past (circa 2002-5) when I was still fiddling with ColdFusion. Mike was always fair, reasonable and helpful.

At that time, I was trying to use ColdFusion & Flash to present up-to-the-minute stock quotes for a portfolio of less than 100 holdings. I was using Mac OS X, and never could get the performance that others reported for slower Windows systems. I got some help from Mike and others (AIR, none of them were working for MacroMedia/Adobe at that time). After lots of help and effort, we just gave up on Flash for the Mac (there was general agreement that it was a poor implementation). We reported our findings, but there seemed little interest by MacroMedia/Adobe to do anything.

I was able to do the presentation with ColdFusion, native HTML and JavaScript with better than twice the refresh rate of Flash).

To be honest, MacroMedia/Adobe didn't really support ColdFusion on Mac OS X for anything other than development (you had to deploy on Windows, *Nix or Solaris).

It has been my experience, since then, that Mac OS X is perceived as a second class citizen for Flash.


That said, I can understand Mike's loyalty to his product and his employer-- most of us would act the same way.


I'll say it again, though: I wish Adobe would realize the opportunity they have-- to support both (current and future) Flash as well as HTML5. Adobe could offer tools and services to allow creation of solutions for both, and migration between them. They are best qualified to do this.

If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!

.
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post #84 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!

.

If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.
post #85 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

... Dude, you guys are pimping something that's not even adopted or finalized! When Flash Player 10.1 hits all the android, symbian, windows, and rim devices, the cheese will stand alone.

Dude, you are pimping Flash Player 10.1, which doesn't exist!

I love this particular brand of irrationality. Cheese indeed!
post #86 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.


Gordon.js

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post #87 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.

i think you have that wrong. from what i've read, the format is relatively open (not sure for how long it has been). it's the player that is proprietary. if adobe were to open source the player, then apple could fix it. i'm sure that would have gone a long way in bringing flash to the iphone. i'm pretty sure that apple wouldn't be quite so eager at this point.

i remember a time when you could set quicktime to play flash content. i don't remember which version it was (i think it was flash 5), but i'm curious if anybody here can explain to me why that was the case then, and what has happened to change that.
post #88 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Gordon.js

that's interesting. definitely a step in the right direction.
post #89 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

At that time, I was trying to use ColdFusion & Flash to present up-to-the-minute stock quotes for a portfolio of less than 100 holdings. I was using Mac OS X, and never could get the performance that others reported for slower Windows systems. I got some help from Mike and others (AIR, none of them were working for MacroMedia/Adobe at that time). After lots of help and effort, we just gave up on Flash for the Mac (there was general agreement that it was a poor implementation). We reported our findings, but there seemed little interest by MacroMedia/Adobe to do anything.

Google seemed to be able to pull off the Flash stock quote application. It is the best Financial quote system on the web far and away. I think the problems you mentioned sum it up.

1. Coldfusion not a main stream application environment
2. Mac not a main stream server platform

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post #90 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by boulder1259 View Post

Say what you like, I enjoy an occasional McDonalds hamburger!

Really? I throw away the burger and eat the box because it tastes much better.
post #91 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post


So when Jobs lies about flash being a cpu hog, and everyone just agrees without question, it does have a ripple effect on the rest of the industry. People are making the comment that Adobe is ripping on Apple for something that no other phone has, but they ignore the obvious in that Steve Jobs has no problem ripping on flash under the same exact circumstances.

It's all so stupid.


I have recent (and continued) personal experience that shows that Flash is, in fact, a resource hog on a Mac.

I had run a couple of YouTube Flash videos... all had completed... only one open window had a Flash player in it... the Flash player was not running:




This was run on a 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac 24 with 4GB RAM


This person, agrees with this Jobs truth, because it is consistent with my own experience.

.
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post #92 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

If Adobe opens up the spec for Flash format I am sure someone will do it. Unfortunately it's a closed format.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if Flash can be converted to HTML5. The move for video is already under way, Gruber has a link today for some HTML5 games that some guy threw together, and Flash doesn't really have anything compelling to offer over the long run: being effectively locked out of the entire mobile market for the moment, and the iP* using segment of that market permanently, isn't exactly going to make it a good choice for anyone that wants to reach those consumers, and everybody does want to reach them.

The move away from Flash towards standards based content is already well under way, and there will be no turning back. Someone, if not Adobe, will create the tools for designers, and they are probably working on them as you read this. People update their websites constantly, so it's not necessary to convert the Flash content, it will simply be replaced with HTML5 content when the next update cycle comes around. In not too long a time, the only place Flash will continue to exist is in Web archives.
post #93 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

HTML5 is free. Flash requires a license, and therefore it's Adobe's way of having control over the web (or something.)

H.264 though is far from "free"
post #94 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if Flash can be converted to HTML5.

I am ok with it if all the heavy lifting is done on the server side, and the client's only job is handling HTML/CSS/Javascript.

Also "Gordon.js" proves one thing, HTML/CSS/Javascript is capable of replicating most of Flash's functionality.
post #95 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Eh... I've had dealings with Mike Chambers in the past (circa 2002-5) when I was still fiddling with ColdFusion. Mike was always fair, reasonable and helpful.

At that time, I was trying to use ColdFusion & Flash to present up-to-the-minute stock quotes for a portfolio of less than 100 holdings. I was using Mac OS X, and never could get the performance that others reported for slower Windows systems. I got some help from Mike and others (AIR, none of them were working for MacroMedia/Adobe at that time). After lots of help and effort, we just gave up on Flash for the Mac (there was general agreement that it was a poor implementation). We reported our findings, but there seemed little interest by MacroMedia/Adobe to do anything.

I was able to do the presentation with ColdFusion, native HTML and JavaScript with better than twice the refresh rate of Flash).

To be honest, MacroMedia/Adobe didn't really support ColdFusion on Mac OS X for anything other than development (you had to deploy on Windows, *Nix or Solaris).

It has been my experience, since then, that Mac OS X is perceived as a second class citizen for Flash.


That said, I can understand Mike's loyalty to his product and his employer-- most of us would act the same way.


I'll say it again, though: I wish Adobe would realize the opportunity they have-- to support both (current and future) Flash as well as HTML5. Adobe could offer tools and services to allow creation of solutions for both, and migration between them. They are best qualified to do this.

If Adobe doesn't pick up on this, I suspect someone else will offer a Flash to HTML5 migration system, and carry the day!

.

while i understand mike's loyalty for his platform, i'm not quite so sure i understand why he would be involving himself in the public spectacle that has been unfolding. so far all we really hear is adobe's public whining, at first in response to a single 'reported' remark of steve jobs at an internal meeting at apple, now obviously because of apple's stance on 3rd party dev tools.

his blog post, while more adult than lee brimelow's rant, is full of flamebait and FUD. hardly what i would call 'fair, reasonable and helpful'. while it's probably useful for riling up the faithful flash devs, it hardly makes adobe look like a company run by reasonable adults.

passion for your product is one thing. washing your dirty laundry in public is another. apple has been characteristically quiet as usual.

i agree 100% with your assessment that adobe has an opportunity to be the company to push development tools forward. i don't think a public pissing contest is the way to set the tone though. i know they're not getting any sympathy from me, and i've been using their products since Illustrator 88.
post #96 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I have recent (and continued) personal experience that shows that Flash is, in fact, a resource hog on a Mac.

I had run a couple of YouTube Flash videos... all had completed... only one open window had a Flash player in it... the Flash player was not running:




This was run on a 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac 24 with 4GB RAM


This person, agrees with this Jobs truth, because it is consistent with my own experience.

.


Too many hearsay variables to have any credibility. Why don't you take a video showing us the all of the relevant content on screen and the Activity Monitor live in real time. BTW I can write and HTML5 canvas that will peg your CPU as well.

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post #97 of 166
Good

I'm glad they're bailing. There's no need for meta platforms sitting over Cocoa Touch.


Lost total respect for EFF. These guys are starting to sound idiotic like Greenpeace or the ACLU. Glad I never donated any money.

The common mantra coming from Flash developers is this.

"I want to run my app on Android, WinMob, Blackberry and any other provider that runs flash"

It means at the core, their desire is to write an app and deploy it everywhere they can for as little effort. This means that me as a consumer buys into the iPhone platform expecting to get apps specifically tailored for my chosen phone yet I'm going to be deluged by a bunch of products where overall quality may be dubious as the developer is more keen on pushing their product on a bajillion platforms rather than optimizing for the one I spent my hard earned dollars on.

The hubris of Mike Chambers and his Flash minions is startling.
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post #98 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

H.264 though is far from "free"

It really doesn't matter. It could be H264, VP8, OGG, hell if Flash is so great it could be flash also. As long as it's in the HTML5 standard.

And no one's stopping them to have multiple video formats either. Right now Image tag already support JPEG, GIF, and PNG. No reason why the video tag should be different.
post #99 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

H.264 though is far from "free"

i don't think this is about video playback. that train has left the platform. 3 years of iphone, and the support for other solutions by youtube/vimeo and maybe soon hulu prove that you don't need flash for that. i don't think adobe was pushing their flash-to-iphone development platform to put more flash video online.

h264 is licensed free until 2015 (?) i think. i sure hope we're not going to drag out this discussion until then...
post #100 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Google seemed to be able to pull off the Flash stock quote application. It is the best Financial quote system on the web far and away. I think the problems you mentioned sum it up.

1. Coldfusion not a main stream application environment
2. Mac not a main stream server platform

You miss the point... I was able to pull it off without Flash because ColdFusion and HTML were not the limiting factors-- Flash was!

--ColdFusion MX ran in compiled Java ByteCode and approached the performance of J2EE regardless of platform

-- The problem was not at the server end... it was at the client end where Flash was running on a Mac

.
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post #101 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

because a huge chunk of their income comes from mac users. that's why.
so far very little income comes from iphone users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ixho View Post

Are you saying that Adobe should not optimize Flash for Mac, because it won't be getting access to the iPhone?

btw: Am I the only one who sometimes wake up in the morning and find their mac running all night unable to go into sleep mode because of some crappy flash ads?

I would love to see them optimize flash for the Mac, as it is a pain. I don't use Adobe products except for their free reader.

If you read the boards here and at macrumors, the general consensus is that mobile is the next frontier so to speak, in terms of revenue growth etc.

Apple, as is their right and I have no conceptual issue with this, has said that Flash will never run on the iPhone platform, no matter what Adobe does. So, Adobe has been locked out of a potentially large source of revenue by Apple, based on what may or may not be legitimate technical issues (I am not a programmer).

Given that situation, what incentive does Adobe have to optimize their software, particularly when they read these boards (and they most certainly do), and they read Adobe sucks, should die, etc etc.

Adobe could, along with Apple's actions, get the impression that no matter what they do with their software, Mac people are going to complain etc.
post #102 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Too many hearsay variables to have any credibility. Why don't you take a video showing us the all of the relevant content on screen and the Activity Monitor live in real time. BTW I can write and HTML5 canvas that will peg your CPU as well.

oh come on. if you're on a mac, you don't need documentation. you've seen it!
post #103 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

... his blog post, while more adult than lee brimelow's rant, is full of flamebait and FUD. hardly what i would call 'fair, reasonable and helpful'. while it's probably useful for riling up the faithful flash devs, it hardly makes adobe look like a company run by reasonable adults.

passion for your product is one thing. washing your dirty laundry in public is another. apple has been characteristically quiet as usual...

Actually, it seems Apple did respond (found this on Daring Fireball):
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20003006-264.html Here's the response from Apple that Gruber quoted:

Quote:
Someone has it backwards it is HTML5, CSS, JavaScript, and H.264 (all supported by the iPhone and iPad) that are open and standard, while Adobes Flash is closed and proprietary, said spokeswoman Trudy Miller in a statement."
post #104 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

H.264 though is far from "free"

One is open to license H.264 from MPEG-LA and implement it to their product needs.

Can you say the same for Flash?
post #105 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

Adobe could, along with Apple's actions, get the impression that no matter what they do with their software, Mac people are going to complain etc.

You really think Mac people are just complaining for no reason other than to complain.
post #106 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Too many hearsay variables to have any credibility. Why don't you take a video showing us the all of the relevant content on screen and the Activity Monitor live in real time. BTW I can write and HTML5 canvas that will peg your CPU as well.

Sure... while I'm working that why don't you whip up a case (with citations, movies, etc.) that proves that Flash is Not a resource hog on a Mac...

I'll show you mine, if you'll show me yours!

.
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post #107 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

I would love to see them optimize flash for the Mac, as it is a pain. I don't use Adobe products except for their free reader.

If you read the boards here and at macrumors, the general consensus is that mobile is the next frontier so to speak, in terms of revenue growth etc.

Apple, as is their right and I have no conceptual issue with this, has said that Flash will never run on the iPhone platform, no matter what Adobe does. So, Adobe has been locked out of a potentially large source of revenue by Apple, based on what may or may not be legitimate technical issues (I am not a programmer).

Given that situation, what incentive does Adobe have to optimize their software, particularly when they read these boards (and they most certainly do), and they read Adobe sucks, should die, etc etc.

Adobe could, along with Apple's actions, get the impression that no matter what they do with their software, Mac people are going to complain etc.

you make it sound as if the complaints of mac users are made up and have taken adobe by surprise. that's just not the reality. adobe has heard these complaints for years and has done little about it. the only impression that i think they got is this: it doesn't matter how badly we treat mac users. they have little choice but to lump it.

after being told that they don't get to play in steve's new sandbox, they are suddenly waking up. well - all i can say to that is: thanks steve, what took you so long? a company that doesn't listen to half of its core customers for years doesn't deserve sympathy. it's sad that it had to take a semi-public scolding by steve jobs to wake them up.

let's hope they do something about it - other than just blogging.
post #108 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if Flash can be converted to HTML5. The move for video is already under way, Gruber has a link today for some HTML5 games that some guy threw together, and Flash doesn't really have anything compelling to offer over the long run: being effectively locked out of the entire mobile market for the moment, and the iP* using segment of that market permanently, isn't exactly going to make it a good choice for anyone that wants to reach those consumers, and everybody does want to reach them.

The move away from Flash towards standards based content is already well under way, and there will be no turning back. Someone, if not Adobe, will create the tools for designers, and they are probably working on them as you read this. People update their websites constantly, so it's not necessary to convert the Flash content, it will simply be replaced with HTML5 content when the next update cycle comes around. In not too long a time, the only place Flash will continue to exist is in Web archives.

http://www.kesiev.com/akihabara/

Impressive stuff!

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GOA

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post #109 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Actually, it seems Apple did respond (found this on Daring Fireball):
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20003006-264.html Here's the response from Apple that Gruber quoted:

i stand corrected.

how dare they point to facts in a single sentence! where is the inflammatory rhetoric? what? no 'screw you adobe' from a company official? and so the 'war' continues...
post #110 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

http://www.kesiev.com/akihabara/

Impressive stuff!

Apparently even Farmville are porting to iPhone OS.
post #111 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

you make it sound as if the complaints of mac users are made up and have taken adobe by surprise. that's just not the reality. adobe has heard these complaints for years and has done little about it. the only impression that i think they got is this: it doesn't matter how badly we treat mac users. they have little choice but to lump it.

after being told that they don't get to play in steve's new sandbox, they are suddenly waking up. well - all i can say to that is: thanks steve, what took you so long? a company that doesn't listen to half of its core customers for years doesn't deserve sympathy. it's sad that it had to take a semi-public scolding by steve jobs to wake them up.

let's hope they do something about it - other than just blogging.

In no way am I saying that the complaints are made up. The complaints are legitimate, and long standing.

OTOH, given the history of mac users and adobe, and all of the bad blood, do you believe that if Adobe optimized their software so that it ran smoothly and bug free on Mac OSX, that Mac users would suddenly embrace Adobe and its products, and that all would be forgiven?
post #112 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

In no way am I saying that the complaints are made up. The complaints are legitimate, and long standing.

OTOH, given the history of mac users and adobe, and all of the bad blood, do you believe that if Adobe optimized their software so that it ran smoothly and bug free on Mac OSX, that Mac users would suddenly embrace Adobe and its products, and that all would be forgiven?

Given the fact that Adobe got their start with Mac People, why would they suddenly turn on Adobe? Mac People must be mentally unstable.
post #113 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

Given the fact that Adobe got their start with Mac People, why would they suddenly turn on Adobe? Mac People must be mentally unstable.

It's not always about how you start it's about how you finish.

Adobe basically turned their backs on Apple and their Mac users. Now that Apple's fortunes have improved Adobe wishes to hitch a ride on the mobile platform wave and they're getting shutout.

I think our anger towards Adobe is justified and if anything means we are more stable than ever.
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post #114 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Apparently even Farmville are porting to iPhone OS.

I know nothing of this Farmville, my fine fellow.

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post #115 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I have recent (and continued) personal experience that shows that Flash is, in fact, a resource hog on a Mac.

I had run a couple of YouTube Flash videos... all had completed... only one open window had a Flash player in it... the Flash player was not running:




This was run on a 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo iMac 24 with 4GB RAM


This person, agrees with this Jobs truth, because it is consistent with my own experience.

.

Excellent post. (I am reposting the picture because people should see it again).

Sometimes (esp. on the AI website, much to my chagrin), Activity Monitor shows 120% - 140% of CPU!!
post #116 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

In no way am I saying that the complaints are made up. The complaints are legitimate, and long standing.

OTOH, given the history of mac users and adobe, and all of the bad blood, do you believe that if Adobe optimized their software so that it ran smoothly and bug free on Mac OSX, that Mac users would suddenly embrace Adobe and its products, and that all would be forgiven?

no. i'm not saying that. i said that if adobe had been more pro-active in getting flash on osx up to snuff years ago, there would have been a much better chance in getting flash on the iphone.

we were all speculating if flash would be part of the iphone in 2007, and at the time there was no definite 'no. never. not ever.' coming from apple (iirc). i think steve jobs' comments (resource hog, battery life, cpu killer) didn't surface until later, probably after adobe showed them work in progress (admittedly pure speculation on my part).

i seem to recall that jobs was dismissing flash lite pretty much right away as 'useless'. maybe we read too much into it at the time, but adobe was talking a lot about bringing a full flash version for mobiles out. it was just around the corner. and has been for three years now.

we have to remember also that at the time of the iphone launch, nobody could have predicted it to be a runaway success. i'm sure that apple is more confident now than they were back then and have adjusted their roadmap accordingly. three years of no-flash iphone sales do prove that apple doesn't need flash.

if adobe pulls it off, they might want it at some point. time will tell. i wouldn't bet money on it.
post #117 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Can you say the same for Flash?

Have you tried?
post #118 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla View Post

What's 'Flash?'

Saviour of the Universe.

Where have you been for the last couple of decades, anyway?
post #119 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

Given the fact that Adobe got their start with Mac People, why would they suddenly turn on Adobe? Mac People must be mentally unstable.

some of us 'mentally unstable mac people' just have memories that last longer than the average youtube video!

now get off my lawn!

post #120 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

You just described the App Store.

good one, actually. It seems fanboysm does tend to distort reality field even further
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