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post #121 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patranus View Post

For Apples sake, lets hope Google doesn't swoop in and jack it for Android before Apple can close the deal.

We have all seen Googles willingness to swoop in and jack a deal when Apple is on the move.

Maybe that's the point.
post #122 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Qualcomm's Snapdragon platform goes up to 1Ghz too.

But I'm guessing it was cheaper to buy Intrinsity than Qualcomm.

By golly it does. I thought it topped out at 650Mhz.
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post #123 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

If Apple buys Adobe they have to deal with cross platform tools for deploying on windows. They don't have that to worry about with ARM to the same extent.

You mean like how they kept developing Logic for Windows after they bought Emagic?
post #124 of 155
Apple founded ARM way back. If Apple did not sell all its share since 1999, then Apple still owns about 15% of ARM

http://news.cnet.com/Apple-tries-to-..._3-224373.html
post #125 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSquirrel View Post

You mean like how they kept developing Logic for Windows after they bought Emagic?

Made me happy. A majority of Logic users were Mac based even prior to the acquisition and the majority of Logic cracks were on the PC version. Emagic was losing money supporting Windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winst View Post

Apple founded ARM way back. If Apple did not sell all its share since 1999, then Apple still owns about 15% of ARM

http://news.cnet.com/Apple-tries-to-..._3-224373.html

Apple did have to sell a lot of their ARM stock when they were under financial duress in the late 90's.
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post #126 of 155
The AI report says: "After noting that shares in ARM had "shot up 8.1p to 251.1p...... [and] ....traders reckon a bid would come in at around 400p a share, valuing ARM at more than £5.2 billion [$8 billion US]."

That implies the current valuation must be $8B*(251/400) = US$5B. Yet, Google Finance shows the company's market cap (it is traded as an ADR on NASDAQ: http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:ARMH), including todays price runup, to be slightly less than US$2B. (Reuters data confirms this: http://www.reuters.com/finance/stock...?symbol=ARMH.O).

What gives? The numbers reported by AI seem really badly off!?
post #127 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by winst View Post

Apple founded ARM way back. If Apple did not sell all its share since 1999, then Apple still owns about 15% of ARM

http://news.cnet.com/Apple-tries-to-..._3-224373.html

That was April of 1999. I believe Apple continued to sell off ARM stock (dropping their percentage to ~9% in Sept of that same year) until the sold their remaining stock in Jan 2000. They may have since been buying up ARM stock, but at one point they had divested themselves of all of the ARM holdings. I think at the beginning the held 43%.

It would have been nice if they had been able to hold their original position with ARM, but they needed the cash at the time and the profited hugely from the sales.

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post #128 of 155
Perfect! I'd love to see Apple make a big play. This one would certainly give them a lot of leverage in the smart phone industry. Buy em!
post #129 of 155
The only reason that Apple might buy ARM is so that someone else does not!

ARM has some very desirable tech right now and if someone else buys ARM and says... "too bad Apple!" Apple will be SOL once their current license expires! Right now ARM is the best tech out there for small mobile devices and if someone (Google?, Nokia?) buys ARM, Apple could find itself in a world of hurt!

My $0.02 worth
KRR

Disclosure: I own both AAPL and ARMH stock.
post #130 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpymw View Post

Highly unlikely. Apple's modus operandi is just to move to another technology. Power PC is a perfect example. Even while they were using the Power architecture on their mobile and desktop computers they had Intel powered machines running OS X from its inception. When the Power architecture was deemed unsatisfactory buy Apple they pulled the trigger and switched to Intel since they had already planned for that contingency.

Ironic you say that as some speculate that the A4 is a Power Architecture chip running ARM in emulation and that they are preparing to move all the mobile hardware back to Power because of efficiencies in power use (fitting nicely with their purchase of PA Semi.)

Here's an interesting article:
http://www.technomicon.com/iPad_Saga_-_Week_11.html
post #131 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Yeah because nobody uses Adobe's products. When was the last time someone actually used photoshop or acrobat.

Fair enough but are you REALLY trying to equate the desktop publishing and photo imaging / graphics arts markets in the same breath as the mobile electronics market?

One market is expanding faster than the speed of light ...

You tell me which one.
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post #132 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilogic View Post

I'm not sure if Apple could play that nice consider that they were drove to near extinction and they almost "liquidated the company and paid back the shareholders"

Apple has always tried to play nice with others it's the others that have been screwing it up for them.

Think about how much work Apple has done in open source communities to see what I mean:

KHTML
WebKit
SproutCore
Darwin
CUPS
Open Streaming Server

They're trying to further great technologies but are hindered by freaks who keep trying to sue them or refuse to accept Apple's solutions which are generally well thought out.

If Apple bought ARM and setup their own printing business they could force new technologies onto existing customers without really impacting the other customer's business.
post #133 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon T View Post

Apple buys ARM, continues licensing existing stuff.

Develops the new designs, uses them in its products, but licences them to the rest a year or two later.

Nice business model.

Impossible business model.
post #134 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpymw View Post

Highly unlikely. Apple's modus operandi is just to move to another technology. Power PC is a perfect example. Even while they were using the Power architecture on their mobile and desktop computers they had Intel powered machines running OS X from its inception. When the Power architecture was deemed unsatisfactory buy Apple they pulled the trigger and switched to Intel since they had already planned for that contingency.

You missed the point of my response to him.
post #135 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Impossible business model.

Exactly.

To many people are focused Apple kneecapping competitors with this acquisition. When did
paranoia rule the day in Tech land?

Apple is far more methodical. If they purchased ARM they'd license the cores out business as usual. Apple knows they are not beating companies on hardware they're beating companies on integration.

There's no harm in licensing the cores as freely as possible because what makes Apple special isn't hardware but a keen eye for product aesthetic and differentiation couple with savvy marketing. You can't buy that in a core folks. That's company DNA.
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post #136 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpymw View Post

Apple makes home computers, mobile phones and digital music players. They've just created a new category of mobile computing with the iPad. Of the four categories three of them use ARM technology, home computers being the only one that does not. Apple is apparently the largest customer in the world for ARM processors. It also has a licence to produce ARM processors. If it bought ARM holdings Apple would no longer need to pay for its ARM licence to produce and use ARM processors. That could benefit Apple at the very least as a simple cost savings in the long run since it relies on that technology so much and will rely on it more and more in the future. The profit that ARM sees form its largest customer, Apple, would now remain with Apple along with all of the ARM IP. Plus it would give Apple the leverage in how that technology is used with third parties. If that isn't synergy then I don't know what is.

Apple has NEVER been a customer of ARM after they discontinued the Newton.

Some of you guys are really messing this up. Apple buys their chips from Samsung. Samsung is a customer of ARM. Apple is a customer of Samsung.

So far, we have no idea whether Apple has licenses from ARM or not. It's all speculation And Apple is far from being the largest customer forARM chips. They are only a customer of Samsung, which produces ARM chips for a number of other customers. Samsung is also one of the largest cell phone manufacturers, far larger than Apple. They use ARM's in their own phones as well.

If you're going to argue this, at least understand what you are arguing about.
post #137 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, ARM at least has some worthwhile IP. It's hard to see what of value Adobe offers Apple.

If Apple controlled the development of CS5 and other Adobe software, they could do what Adobe refuses to do, which is to customize it to perform as well as possible on Apple's hardware, and to include features of the OS that Adobe won't support.

I've been using and beta testing Photoshop since the beginning, and I've seen the developmental cycles move around from all Apple, to Apple/Microsoft, to Microsoft and ported to Apple, back to Apple/Microsoft.

But ever since Adobe moved to Windows, their mantra was, that as much as possible, their programs should work equally well on all platforms supported. That works well for them, and I can't argue the point They want to be platform neutral.

But that means that they don't support Mac only features to any great extent. They take little advantage of OS and hardware features.

One case in point. Photoshop is uni-threaded in open and saves. Only one core is used. So when we have truly fast RAIDs, most of the speed is wasted. Why is that? Because Windows doesn't support multiple cores in open and save properly. So we're stuck with it as well. I asked John Nack the other say about that question. He said that CS5 still has that limitation, and *hopefully* it will be solved on CS6. Gee, I wonder why?

This is why Apple won't allow the new Flash conversion tools Adobe created. It will homogenize all the mobile OS's to the same feature sets. No good.

So if Apple did buy Adobe, they could fix all of this, and programs would perform better on OS X, and Apple's hardware, giving them an advantage.

But the problems of buying what is mostly a Windows software shop still remain.
post #138 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I supposed Mac Pro users would continue to run apps from companies like Avid, Apple, Autodesk and more. Adobe doesn't define the Macintosh Professional arena.

Adobe's products are used in professional settings far more than all of those other products put together.
post #139 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Qualcomm's Snapdragon platform goes up to 1Ghz too.

But I'm guessing it was cheaper to buy Intrinsity than Qualcomm.

You guys are really funny. Don't any of you understand that the Snapdragon is also an ARM derived chip?

I'm reading this thread with people pointing it out as something separate from ARM when it isn't.

If Apple bought ARM, and killed external sales, Qualcomm would be one of the first affected.
post #140 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Adobe's products are used in professional settings far more than all of those other products put together.

Yes but Adobe isn't the sole reason why people buy Mac Pro. I'm sure there are plenty of iMacs running Creative Suite.
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post #141 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You guys are really funny. Don't any of you understand that the Snapdragon is also an ARM derived chip?

I'm reading this thread with people pointing it out as something separate from ARM when it isn't.

If Apple bought ARM, and killed external sales, Qualcomm would be one of the first affected.

Melgross

I think RichL is well aware that Snapdragon is ARM based. He was responding to my incorrect assumption that all Cortex A8 other than the Hummingbird run at 650Mhz or less. I misread an article which basically stated that extra tweaks are needed to go above the 650Mhz A8 as designed by ARM.
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post #142 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Exactly.

To many people are focused Apple kneecapping competitors with this acquisition. When did
paranoia rule the day in Tech land?

Apple is far more methodical. If they purchased ARM they'd license the cores out business as usual. Apple knows they are not beating companies on hardware they're beating companies on integration.

There's no harm in licensing the cores as freely as possible because what makes Apple special isn't hardware but a keen eye for product aesthetic and differentiation couple with savvy marketing. You can't buy that in a core folks. That's company DNA.

While I sometimes disagree with you, you make sense in your arguments, even if you look at it differently than I do.

But sheesh, too many people aren't even bothering to think this through. We're getting stream of consciousness posting. Whatever comes to mind is typed out without editing.
post #143 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Yes but Adobe isn't the sole reason why people buy Mac Pro. I'm sure there are plenty of iMacs running Creative Suite.

Most pros use iMacs.
post #144 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Melgross

I think RichL is well aware that Snapdragon is ARM based. He was responding to my incorrect assumption that all Cortex A8 other than the Hummingbird run at 650Mhz or less. I misread an article which basically stated that extra tweaks are needed to go above the 650Mhz A8 as designed by ARM.

I'm reading a lot of posts stating that if Apple bought ARM, and discontinued sales, that there would always be Intel and Qualcomm. This struck me as one of the same.
post #145 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Intriguing idea, but i have to agree with the posters who state that there could be anti-trust issues that would prevent ARM being controlled by Apple.

Quite possibly. They'd become suppliers to their competitors.

Quote:
PS: If Apple was allowed to dish out $8 Billion for ARM Holdings we'd at least end some of the talk about Apple hoarding money for no good reason.

I assume that was put in for me.

If the takeover price was $8b, about half would be a stock swap, meaning that the due bill would be around $4b. Check my math, but Apple doesn't need $40b to make that deal work.

Not that I think buying ARM makes much more sense than buying Adobe.
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post #146 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm reading a lot of posts stating that if Apple bought ARM, and discontinued sales, that there would always be Intel and Qualcomm. This struck me as one of the same.

I've heard the same confusion about Tegra. ARM has dominant marketshare. I'm not sure Apple's looking to acquire them but they could certainly do worse on the acquisition front.
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post #147 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

The AI report says: "After noting that shares in ARM had "shot up 8.1p to 251.1p...... [and] ....traders reckon a bid would come in at around 400p a share, valuing ARM at more than £5.2 billion [$8 billion US]."

That implies the current valuation must be $8B*(251/400) = US$5B. Yet, Google Finance shows the company's market cap (it is traded as an ADR on NASDAQ: http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:ARMH), including todays price runup, to be slightly less than US$2B. (Reuters data confirms this: http://www.reuters.com/finance/stock...?symbol=ARMH.O).

What gives? The numbers reported by AI seem really badly off!?

I believe the ADR only represents the value of the stock traded on the NASDAQ.
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post #148 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I believe the ADR only represents the value of the stock traded on the NASDAQ.

I believe you are correct. The ADR doesn't "match" the foreign market value, although it may often times appear to be in the same neighborhood.

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post #149 of 155
I dont understand. Someone with more knowledge on ARM financial can tell me more about it.

If its Run Rate as a previous Poster post is 5 billion USD. Then the current price is extremely attractive. However Financial Highlight show it is only 500M. Not 5 Billion.

http://www.arm.com/annualreport09/ov...ighlights.html

2. It makes 150M USD Profits per Year. So P/E is quite high. I suspect when they announce their results on 27th things will look better.

3. Google Finance information are incorrect? It is making as PE with 80. But currently ARM is at 4.5B, 150M Profits fit into 30 PE. Which is very acceptable for its Growth.

4. It is trading like crazy. The amount of Shared trade in one day is more then the total amount of shares issued. Did some one just brought ARM outright? I dont think it make sense.
post #150 of 155
According to their web site, "ARM has an innovative business model. Instead of bearing the costs associated with manufacturing, we license our technology to a network of Partners, mainly leading semiconductor manufacturers and OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers). These Partners incorporate our designs alongside their own technology to create smart, low energy chips suitable for modern electronic devices."

I admit I know nothing about ARM Holdings, but it sounds like they basically do the same thing as PA Semi. Design, file for patents, then license their IP to others.

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post #151 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

According to their web site, "ARM has an innovative business model. Instead of bearing the costs associated with manufacturing, we license our technology to a network of Partners, mainly leading semiconductor manufacturers and OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers). These Partners incorporate our designs alongside their own technology to create smart, low energy chips suitable for modern electronic devices."

I admit I know nothing about ARM Holdings, but it sounds like they basically do the same thing as PA Semi. Design, file for patents, then license their IP to others.

Sorta. PA Semi was good at working with existing PPC and ARM cores but naturally ARM is creating these new designs from scratch. While PA Semi could get buy with a few hundred talented engineers and others ARM has something like 1700 employees.
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post #152 of 155
One of the reasons why I think that Apple could be interested in ARM is the sheer speed that we're going to see coming from ARM cores.

ARM is about to get sick with the speeds
  • Orion is an 800-MHz Cortex-A9 dual-core processor due to sample in 3Q10 and enter mass production in 1Q11.
  • Pegasus is a 1-GHz Cortex-A9, single-core sampling in 2Q11 and entering mass production in 4Q11.
  • Hercules is a 1-GHz dual-core Cortex-A9 sampling in 3Q11 and set for mass production in 1Q12.
  • Mercury is a 600-MHz single-core Cortex-A5 (Sparrow) due in 2010/11.
  • Venus is a 600-MHz Cortex-A5 dual-core processor due in 2012/13.
  • Draco is a 1.2-GHz Cortex-A9 dual-core slated to arrive 2012/13.
  • And Aquila is a 1.2-GHz Cortex-A9 quad-core also expected in 2012/13.

ARM is rapidly entering a speed zone that's going to allow them to get into bigger and bigger boxes. Amazing
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post #153 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

One of the reasons why I think that Apple could be interested in ARM is the sheer speed that we're going to see coming from ARM cores.

ARM is about to get sick with the speeds
  • Orion is an 800-MHz Cortex-A9 dual-core processor due to sample in 3Q10 and enter mass production in 1Q11.
  • Pegasus is a 1-GHz Cortex-A9, single-core sampling in 2Q11 and entering mass production in 4Q11.
  • Hercules is a 1-GHz dual-core Cortex-A9 sampling in 3Q11 and set for mass production in 1Q12.
  • Mercury is a 600-MHz single-core Cortex-A5 (Sparrow) due in 2010/11.
  • Venus is a 600-MHz Cortex-A5 dual-core processor due in 2012/13.
  • Draco is a 1.2-GHz Cortex-A9 dual-core slated to arrive 2012/13.
  • And Aquila is a 1.2-GHz Cortex-A9 quad-core also expected in 2012/13.

ARM is rapidly entering a speed zone that's going to allow them to get into bigger and bigger boxes. Amazing

And Apple can get any of those chip reference designs, as can anyone. They can now improve them any way they want without having features they don't need that are put into them so that many manufacturers with varying needs will buy them.

No need to buy ARM for that.

Apple still has an advantage because of their unified hardware and software. They get ONE chip design across their device lines. It makes it much easier to optimize than what Google can manage to do. Or anyone else that gives their OS to different manufacturers, or has many differing lines of phones such as Nokia.

MS is learning this, which is why Win Phone 7 is spec'ed much more tightly as to hardware than was before, or than what Google is doing. Google's big mistake, among others.
post #154 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And Apple can get any of those chip reference designs, as can anyone. They can now improve them any way they want without having features they don't need that are put into them so that many manufacturers with varying needs will buy them.

No need to buy ARM for that.

True but I'm reminded of a Thomas Edison quote about opportunity here.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.


Apple doesn't have to buy ARM but they always have to be pushing the envelope. That's what good companies do.
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post #155 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

True but I'm reminded of a Thomas Edison quote about opportunity here.

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.


Apple doesn't have to buy ARM but they always have to be pushing the envelope. That's what good companies do.

That's why they bought PA Semi and intrinsity.
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