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Nokia's earnings disappoint as it struggles to combat Apple's iPhone - Page 2

post #41 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

They certainly do. Between Android's feature dominance and Apple's loyal fans, Nokia is not in a good spot right now.

They have great products. And in most of the world, they own the markets. But the markets are changing, and they need to step up efforts to rebuild their lead.

And Apple Fans are loyal due to feature dominance over both Android and Nokia.
post #42 of 164
It is not easier to build a great product at some imaginary 'built out field'- point. That simply is not true. Windows 95 wasn't a great leap forward considering there was a mature mouse-driven user interface already. Cliche time - Henry Ford didn't just build a faster horse.

Now the wireless companies laid cable (!). They built towers. What they didn't do was build anything that made the process of access better or more useable. I am not underestimating their willingness to build infrastructure to compete with other wireless companies. But they did very little to engineer decent multi-fuction phones. RIM did more than most of the big boy players.

There is a difference in how companies operate and think. Companies that basically build infrastructure are not the ones who are capable of designing things that look forward to how to use the infrastructure. In fact, I would say they are the worst at it as their POV is aimed at building towers and laying lines. But it is still amazing that they did so little in innovating any kind of decent hardware/software combination.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Hmm. They just developed the whole mobile industry with that R&D to the point that you can now create a phone + computer + camera + iPod + Navigator + PDA from essentially a single chip + some memory. That's no small feat to accomplish.

It's much easier to come in when the palyground already exists and you can buy most of the components from the shop. Also you don't have any existing user base of your own that you risk to alianate and you can learn from existing deficiencies. Don't forget that as a phone (not talking about the other functions let alone UI), the iPhone is not that good (reception issues, power save issues, boatloads of signalling issues, 10second voice codec pauses etc.) especially compared to the established players.

It's also quite difficult to judge at what point is it worth it to alienate many of your existing user's by making a big drastic change in your user's use environment (for example OS9 ->OS X or G5 ->Intel or Nokia S60 -> Meego or Symbian^4). If you break backwards compatibility and change the UI, it becomes harder the larger your user base is (bigger user base to lose). Apple just made it mandatory for the existing players to act now (a good thing that is). It's interesting to see how they will react.

Many of the vendors have gone the reactionary route of copying the Apple UI and business model (Win 7 and Samsung Bada), some have done their own (Ovi was announced before Apple Store). 2 years is product development cycle after all is a short time. Especially if your aim is to compete, innovate and start over and not just quicly copy (as many of the asian manufacturers have done). Nokia isn't doing hot at the moment, but it does have potential. It remains to be seen if they can use that potential.

Regs, Jarkko
post #43 of 164
Time to nip this Android Feature Dominance thing in the butt.

Whatever 'feature' dominance they have it is completely overshadowed by poor quality cases/hardware and a very troubled user interface.

I was open minded - I went to a store expecting to be impressed. I wasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esummers View Post

And Apple Fans are loyal due to feature dominance over both Android and Nokia.
post #44 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Hey, you're the one who quoted the thing back. In the Ugliest Products of All Time derby, the AMC Gremlin wins by a length (sorry Nokia!). Not only was it completely utt bugly both inside and out, it drove poorly and was miserably constructed. So what's not to love?


I'm not sure but the Pacer may be even uglier.

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post #45 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

They certainly do. Between Android's feature dominance and Apple's loyal fans, Nokia is not in a good spot right now.

They have great products. And in most of the world, they own the markets. But the markets are changing, and they need to step up efforts to rebuild their lead.

Should we attribute the reported sale of 8.75 million $600 smart phones in one quarter to loyal fans or should we look at the product and see if it is actually the quality and utility of the device that are prompting people to purchase?
post #46 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Hey, you're the one who quoted the thing back. In the Ugliest Products of All Time derby, the AMC Gremlin wins by a length (sorry Nokia!). Not only was it completely utt bugly both inside and out, it drove poorly and was miserably constructed. So what's not to love?

I know I quoted it back....just for shock and awe.
I personally think the pacer gives it a run for the title of fugliest car.

Oops looks like mstone beat me to it.
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post #47 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I'm not sure but the Pacer may be even uglier.

A matter of opinion of course, but I thought the Pacer was more strange than ugly. At least its lines went somewhere, and the design followed its own eccentric logic. The Gremlin was just a total mishmash.
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post #48 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

But those were probably a few of the many 100s of phones they created. That is kinda important when you are in pretty much every country ......... etc

See, that's the problem right there. All pulled out of some silly 'go-to-market' handbook.

There are only so many sensible ways in which you can slice and dice a market and yet do it in a cost-efficient, consistent, high-quality way. Moreover, do it in a way that consumers don't get completely confused.

Apple makes the market come to it, rather than go-to-market.
post #49 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

Anyone who thinks Nokia used to be crap forever doesn't know anything. Or else has only been in the US, where customers had to deal with locked-down crappy LG/Samsung phones while the rest of the world was enjoying great (at the time) Nokia phones. However, they forgot what made their stuff great (really really simple to use. The Nokia 3210 family ushered a new generation of simplicity in phones in the mid-late 90's with their single button interface).

Nokia's biggest issue (and the biggest change in paradigm, which yes, was ushered in by Apple) was that phones aren't about HW anymore. They are all about the SW. And I dont think Nokia has the SW capability to compete in this new generation.

They really need to buy Palm, before more of their engineers jump that sinking ship.

Not sure about Palm but at some point in the not too distant past Nokia phones were simply the best you could buy - quality hardware, well thought out and fairly consistent UI and great features. They were light years ahead of the crap peddled by Motorola, Sony Ericsson and the rest of the mobile industry.

What changed ?

I think they missed, completely missed, the possibility of people wanting constant access to their email, browsing rich content - to be sure they dabbled but christ was the web sh*t on wap.

Apple changed the whole expectation level in the mobile market - Nokia have some talented people but they are not at the top of the company so unlikely to be able to move fast enough to counter the changes occurring in the longer term.

Sad.
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post #50 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post

I'd buy Palm for WebOS if I was them.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees Palm's failure as a perfect opportunity for Nokia. They get a viable smartphone OS and a US presence with the Palm name.

Nokia may be faltering but they plenty of money and time to rebuild themselves. Will they be able to do it is another story, but I do want them to be the biggest thorn in Apple's side.
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post #51 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by lav1daloca View Post

Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..


Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)

RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales

NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)

So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.

Hope your meal bought from parlaying market share tastes good!

I'll buy mine from cash flow and market value.
post #52 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by intercollector View Post

Nokia and Symbian are still very big in Europe and Asia. Apple is, and will be, extremely slow to get to those markets, as it isn't quite the namebrand that you find here in the US.

I never thought I'd live long enough to say this: If what you're saying is true, Europe and Asia are really badly falling behind in terms of sophistication of the mobile handset market.
post #53 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Finnish cellphone maker Nokia conceded this week that it faces "tough" competition in the high-end smartphone realm, as its disappointing quarterly earnings were a stark contrast from yet another blockbuster quarter for Apple and the iPhone.

Nokia this week revealed that earned 349 million euros, or $465 million, in the first quarter of 2010. Though that was an increase from the 122 million euros earned a year prior, it was also short of estimates expected by analysts due to lower-than-expected mobile device sales.

According to the Financial Times, Nokia conceded that its best handsets are struggling to compete in the high-end market. The company said the average selling price of its phones dropped to 62 euros, down from 66 euros. Smartphones prices saw a large drop, down from 190 euros a year ago to 155 euros in the first quarter of calendar 2010.

"We continue to face tough competition with respect to the high end of our mobile device portfolio," Nokia Chief Exeuctive Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo said

Nokia is still the overall worldwide market leader in both smartphones and total cell phones, but it has lost significant ground since Apple entered the market in 2007. Those losses are widely believed to have inspired Nokia to sue Apple over the alleged use of 10 patented wireless standards in the iPhone.

Apple responded to Nokia with its own lawsuit, accusing the Finnish company of infringing on 13 iPhone-related patents. The battle of the two smartphone giants is expected to drag out for years, with both companies looking for a court hearing to be held in 2012. The U.S. International Trade Commission -- the group with which the complaints were filed -- has agreed to look into both Nokia's and Apple's complaints against the other.

Nokia's earnings reveal this week is in sharp contrast to Apple's own record-setting second fiscal quarter of 2010. On Tuesday, Apple announced its highest-ever quarterly iPhone sales at 8.75 million, topping the previous holiday quarter, based on strong international growth of the handset. The strong iPhone sales propelled Apple to a nearly 90 percent increase in profits, exceeding analyst expectations and pushing the company's stock price to new heights.

Hi Folks,

Talking here as a Nokia employee, but not of course on behalf of Nokia. Also an ex-Symbian employee, so seen Nokia from outside and in.

So firstly I listen to a lot of the comments on Nokia and some are very valid, others less so. So I thought I would share a few thoughts:

I have to admit I too had written Nokia off before being acquired in Symbian days. However, having been in Symbian Devices org for a while I have been amazed at a number of things.

Firstly, the reason I joined the organisation and took a position was I saw in SD leadership a recognition that the organization could not compete in the way it did, and the organisation was putting in things to change this. As someone on here put it, changing the course of a large aircraft carrier.

Secondly, the organisation has an unbelievable amount of innovation. I mean for techies, truly incredible. Which is the life blood of a high-tech company.

Thirdly, we have slowly been transforming ourselves to a services and software company, which with Nokia history and hardware focus this is pretty major change. From a Symbian OS perspective, the OS is one of the most capable OSs in the world. From a Nokia historical perspective, it has been let down by the UI. Of course we have been so busy in this area, so watch this space.


Finally, Nokia should not be written off anytime soon, too much going on


Kevin
post #54 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin.mcintyre View Post

Hi Folks,

Talking here as a Nokia employee, but not of course on behalf of Nokia. Also an ex-Symbian employee, so seen Nokia from outside and in. ......
Finally, Nokia should not be written off anytime soon, too much going on


Kevin

Thank you for a very measured, polite note, Kevin. Seriously.

I am curious to know, when you say you are transforming to a services/software company, are there any examples of successful outcomes here that you can point to? Also, will your transformation to a more software-based business continue to be based on Symbian?
post #55 of 164
On a (vaguely) related topic -- since Apple is now a Nokia competitor -- does anyone have a sense of why AAPL jumped another $6+ today (I don't think it was just the tailwind from yesterday's earnings announcement).
post #56 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by lav1daloca View Post

Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..


Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)

RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales

NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)

So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.

Apple will never, ever market a qwerty-style keyboard on a phone. Never ever. No 2 button mouse ever.
post #57 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

A matter of opinion of course, but I thought the Pacer was more strange than ugly. At least its lines went somewhere, and the design followed its own eccentric logic. The Gremlin was just a total mishmash.

Precisely. So is the Pontiac Aztec a modern day Pacer, or Gremlin?

Here's my favorite Aztec commentary:

"Looks like it was designed by two separate teams of engineers that started at opposite bumpers and worked their way towards the middle, each unable to talk to the other until they met at the center doorpost. - Nate"

http://www.cartalk.com/content/featu...minations.html

... and now back to the regularly scheduled thread.
post #58 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

On a (vaguely) related topic -- since Apple is now a Nokia competitor -- does anyone have a sense of why AAPL jumped another $6+ today (I don't think it was just the tailwind from yesterday's earnings announcement).

Haven't been able to find anything. Possibilities are poor Nokia results, poor Verizon (reflecting Droid) results, and potential ARM purchase rumors.

Or maybe it's Gray Powell's dad calling it a theft.

Added: One more possibility. Consumer Watchdog calling for US Justice Dept investigation of Google using search to enter other businesses. "How it tweaks its proprietary search algorithms can ensure a business’s success or doom it to failure,” said John M. Simpson, a consumer advocate with the group.
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post #59 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by stompy View Post

Precisely. So is the Pontiac Aztec a modern day Pacer, or Gremlin?

Here's my favorite Aztec commentary:

"Looks like it was designed by two separate teams of engineers that started at opposite bumpers and worked their way towards the middle, each unable to talk to the other until they met at the center doorpost. - Nate"

http://www.cartalk.com/content/featu...minations.html

... and now back to the regularly scheduled thread.

I'd go with Aztek being like a Gremlin. Definitely mixed-up lines.

This whole mini-thread is making me feel sick.

Think $7.23. (Amount an AAPL share went up today.) Actually, it was $7.25. Even better.
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post #60 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Many of the vendors have gone the reactionary route of copying the Apple UI and business model (Win 7 and Samsung Bada), some have done their own (Ovi was announced before Apple Store). 2 years is product development cycle after all is a short time. Especially if your aim is to compete, innovate and start over and not just quicly copy (as many of the asian manufacturers have done). Nokia isn't doing hot at the moment, but it does have potential. It remains to be seen if they can use that potential.

Regs, Jarkko

Ovi store was announced Feb 2009 - way after the App store was released and had 50,000 apps. http://www.i4u.com/article23241.html

No-one refutes that Nokia was the grandpappy of the mobile phone but they got paid for that many time over (in profits and licensing fees). No-one owes them anything, like no-one owes Apple for popularizing the GUI, laser printer et al. It is about what they do today and tomorrow and Nokia appear to still be all over the place - Maemo, Meego, Symbian^3/4/5 and their industrial design is also behind the curve. I used to love Nokia and had nothing else from 1995-2007 but now you couldn't pay me to use one since there are easily 10 phones I would rather have than an N97 or N900.
post #61 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by desarc View Post

i love the design, but i'll hold onto my 3gs until the 4g network has been rolled out.
[and hopefully i'll be getting my next iPhone with a verizon contract, too]

Oflife: i bet you think these designs are inspired...

The best you can do is get some images from 2003? And why don't we post some of the many "funny" looking Apple products they have released over the years...
post #62 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

...poor Verizon (reflecting Droid) results....

Not to gloat or anything, but WilliamG, where are ye?

(See the WSJ, "Verizon Earnings: Is Droid Fizzling?" http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2010...roid-fizzling/)
post #63 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Ouch, ouch, ouch. For those who don't get the reference:


We can't rule out that he meant this:



Hold on...



Hmmmm........
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post #64 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees Palm's failure as a perfect opportunity for Nokia. They get a viable smartphone OS and a US presence with the Palm name.

Integrating Palm into Nokia would be hard. Just look at the problems Microsoft had with Danger.

How would one go about deciding which OS goes where? Does Nokia drop Symbian? Maemo? Both? What does Nokia use for non-touchscreen smartphones? Nokia would need to change all of its services to be compatible with WebOS too. I can't remember where I saw the stat but apparently Nokia employs more software developers than Apple. Do you make all of the existing developers redundant?

Buying Palm wouldn't be a silver bullet. It would be a massive gamble.
post #65 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by lav1daloca View Post

Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..


Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)

RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales

NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)

So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.

Don't take the numbers at face value.
RIM sells a lot of phones in the BOGOF model - a lot of percentage points are giveaways.
Nokia's smartphones include a lot that are barely "smart" and cannot compete with any real smartphone (anything below an N-series, maybe an E) - that more than halves Nokia's share.
Nokia's average selling price for smartphones is about 25% of what Apple makes leading to much lower revenue and profit from the sector that is supposed to be the most profitable and pay for R&D etc.
As you say Apple has staked out the very high ground and won't grow its share significantly without cheaper product but it is growing the volume, revenue and profit massively, ahead of all other competitors because it makes more per phone and is selling more every quarter. Apple's stagnant unit share is a minor statistic vs. revenue and profit and absolute unit growth. What is important is 100M iOS users who have all demonstrated the ability to spend real $s in the App/itunes stores rather than millions of dumbphone users who only buy ringtones or geeks who buy theme packs to customize their look and feel.

Focus on the business and not these meaningless stats and the picture is not as you would suggest.
post #66 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryb View Post

Should we attribute the reported sale of 8.75 million $600 smart phones in one quarter to loyal fans or should we look at the product and see if it is actually the quality and utility of the device that are prompting people to purchase?

+1
those are some real stats, not idiotic unit share numbers...
post #67 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

The best you can do is get some images from 2003? And why don't we post some of the many "funny" looking Apple products they have released over the years...

There's funny looking (think G3 imac, cube, etc. at first release) and then there's unusable... Nokia are the kings of unusable design...
post #68 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Not to gloat or anything, but WilliamG, where are ye?

(See the WSJ, "Verizon Earnings: Is Droid Fizzling?" http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2010...roid-fizzling/)

hey, but look, jfanning is here...
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post #69 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

There's funny looking (think G3 imac, cube, etc. at first release) and then there's unusable... Nokia are the kings of unusable design...

Cube!? Wow, that hurts. I happen to think it is one of the great industrial designs of all time. I still adore mine. (Perhaps I should duck).
post #70 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Hmm. They just developed the whole mobile industry with that R&D to the point that you can now create a phone + computer + camera + iPod + Navigator + PDA from essentially a single chip + some memory. That's no small feat to accomplish.

Wrong! Just wrong!

The big shift in the market was not HW or SW. Those were symptoms. Before the iPhone, there were only 4 customers in America as far as cell phone manufacturers were concerned. Those were the 4 major carriers. Apple was the first to come along and sell directly to the end user. They designed everything about the phone and its services for the end users, not the carriers. End users responded in unprecedented numbers. That is the difference between the phone industry before and after Apple.
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post #71 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by lav1daloca View Post


So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.


It looks like Dell is jumping into smartphones both feet first:

"Dell's Lightning, Thunder, Flash, Smoke and more: rounding up a storm of mobile leaks"

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/22/d...ore-a-roundup/

Dell has got several smartphones, most running Android, with the flagship of the line scheduled for WinPhone 7. The styling isn't my cup of tea (very techy and minimalist with lots of glass and metal), but one of them has a very different form factor, which is interesting.

The names they chose seem to indicate that they intend to "storm" onto the market.

One thing I'd bet on is that we are nearer the beginnings of the great smartphone wars than we are the end.
post #72 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

Wrong! Just wrong!

The big shift in the market was not HW or SW. Those were symptoms. Before the iPhone, there were only 4 customers in America as far as cell phone manufacturers were concerned. Those were the 4 major carriers. Apple was the first to come along and sell directly to the end user. They designed everything about the phone and its services for the end users, not the carriers. End users responded in unprecedented numbers. That is the difference between the phone industry before and after Apple.

Thanks. That makes it as easy as paint by numbers to understand. Apple completely changed the game, the focus. Someone here earlier said that the telecom's are about infrastructure and not about the delivery of the service. Apple has stepped in to change that by trying to keep it simple and trying to make sure it works.
post #73 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

It looks like Dell is jumping into smartphones both feet first:

"Dell's Lightning, Thunder, Flash, Smoke and more: rounding up a storm of mobile leaks"

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/22/d...ore-a-roundup/

Dell has got several smartphones, most running Android, with the flagship of the line scheduled for WinPhone 7. The styling isn't my cup of tea (very techy and minimalist with lots of glass and metal), but one of them has a very different form factor, which is interesting.

The names they chose seem to indicate that they intend to "storm" onto the market.

One thing I'd bet on is that we are nearer the beginnings of the great smartphone wars than we are the end.

The thing about this approach, it seems to me, is that it's trying to replicate the stylistic novelty marketing of dumbphones, ala the Razr et al, but for small handheld computers that need to be convenient and easy to use above all else.

It's all well and good to trick out your phones with a lot of bling and fussy bits when all they need to do is make phone calls and text. But on a smartphone the OS and functionality is plenty fussy as it is.

I dunno, could be wrong, but my impression is that most consumers would desire soothing straightforwardness and as much simplicity as possible for the handset itself, and are happy to leave the elaborations to the software.
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post #74 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin.mcintyre View Post

Secondly, the organisation has an unbelievable amount of innovation. I mean for techies, truly incredible. Which is the life blood of a high-tech company.

Thirdly, we have slowly been transforming ourselves to a services and software company, which with Nokia history and hardware focus this is pretty major change. From a Symbian OS perspective, the OS is one of the most capable OSs in the world. From a Nokia historical perspective, it has been let down by the UI. Of course we have been so busy in this area, so watch this space.

Sorry, but "saying that you're innovating" is not the same as "innovating".

Show us a phone that makes the rest of the industry drop all their current projects and re-think their entire approach and we'll talk.

In the meantime, Apple show no sign of slowing down.
post #75 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

There's funny looking (think G3 imac, cube, etc. at first release) and then there's unusable... Nokia are the kings of unusable design...

Two photos provided were from 2003, seven years ago, can you please provide a list of these unusable designs from a more modern era?
post #76 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

hey, but look, jfanning is here...

What is that meant to mean? Nothing to add so you thought you would start with the insults early?
post #77 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

The big shift in the market was not HW or SW. Those were symptoms. Before the iPhone, there were only 4 customers in America as far as cell phone manufacturers were concerned. Those were the 4 major carriers. Apple was the first to come along and sell directly to the end user. They designed everything about the phone and its services for the end users, not the carriers. End users responded in unprecedented numbers. That is the difference between the phone industry before and after Apple.

I know that is what you think, but it isn't true. If this was true, then why have features been held back to aid AT&T?
post #78 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Two photos provided were from 2003, seven years ago, can you please provide a list of these unusable designs from a more modern era?

Exhibit A: http://www.mobileinc.co.uk/2010/03/n...-vs-real-life/

Now you'll argue that the internals, OS or apps aren't "designed" or that you are only talking about the external HW, as if the rest of the device's usability isn't in question.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #79 of 164
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Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Exhibit A: http://www.mobileinc.co.uk/2010/03/n...-vs-real-life/

Now you'll argue that the internals, OS or apps aren't "designed" or that you are only talking about the external HW, as if the rest of the device's usability isn't in question.

The first comment sums it up "This video is based on the first version of the firmware". I'm sure there are issues with the first gen firmware on that model, just like there was on the first gen firmware of the iPhone.
post #80 of 164
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Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

What is that meant to mean? Nothing to add so you thought you would start with the insults early?

It was in reply to my post, and I know what he meant. So, no need for you to worry about it.
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