or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Adobe CEO dismisses Steve Jobs' comments on Flash as a 'smokescreen'
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Adobe CEO dismisses Steve Jobs' comments on Flash as a 'smokescreen'

post #1 of 172
Thread Starter 
Responding to a public letter issued Thursday by Apple Chief Executive Steve Jobs, Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen said he believes that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to his software, but instead are the fault of "the Apple operating system."

Narayen spoke exclusively with The Wall Street Journal Thursday afternoon after Jobs' letter, entitled "Thoughts on Flash," was posted on Apple's website. The Adobe CEO said he believes that multi-platform options like Flash will "eventually prevail," because they allow developers to write software that can be used on a number of devices, rather than being tied to Apple's iPhone OS ecosystem through the App Store.

"We have different views of the world," Narayan reportedly said of Adobe and Apple. "Our view of the world is multi-platform."

The CEO also disagreed with Jobs' claim that Flash is the No. 1 cause of crashes on the Mac, suggesting that the issues are instead related to Mac OS X. He also said claims about Flash draining battery life of mobile devices were "patently false."

Narayen dismissed Jobs' stated problems with the technology behind Flash as a "smokescreen." He said that more than 100 applications currently available on the App Store were made using Adobe's porting software, to be publicly released with the forthcoming Creative Suite 5. Apple banned the use of intermediary development tools when it modified its developers agreement for iPhone OS 4. Adobe has since abandoned development of that feature.

Thursday morning, Apple posted a lengthy letter from Jobs, in which the company co-founder suggested Flash was a lingering relic from a dying era. Jobs said that though the Web format was created for the PC, it "falls short" in the mobile era, dominated by low-power devices, touchscreen interfaces and open Web standards.

Jobs accused Flash of being closed and proprietary to Adobe. Narayen, again, disagreed with Jobs, calling his comments "amusing" and stating that Flash is an "open specification."

The Adobe executive said he believe's Adobe's cross-platform stance is more beneficial to businesses and developers, allowing to make their software available on a range of devices rather than deciding on just one. "It doesn't benefit Apple, and that's why you see this reaction," he said.
post #2 of 172
Alright... Let's remember Narayen's answer, as we remembered Dell's CEO and Ballmer's, so we can have a good chuckle!
bb
Reply
bb
Reply
post #3 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen said he believes that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to his software, but instead are the fault of "the Apple operating system."

I seem to recall Mozilla stating that Flash was the number cause of crashes along all platforms.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #4 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The Adobe executive said he believe's Adobe's cross-platform stance is more beneficial to businesses and developers, allowing to make their software available on a range of devices rather than deciding on just one.

Adobe exec makes case for shovelware.
post #5 of 172
Safari has been much more stable since I blocked Flash...

Eric
post #6 of 172
One only need look at their activity monitor or stop using Click2Flash to
see the deleterious effects of Flash on a Mac.

It's done...stick a fork in it.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #7 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Responding to a public letter issued Thursday by Apple Chief Executive Steve Jobs, Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen said he believes that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to his software, but instead are the fault of "the Apple operating system."...

Wow. I know it's Adobe, but I would have expected a substantive and lucid response.

The CEO's comments are as duplicitous, vague and misleading as Jobs' are clear and precise.

Shantanu Narayen = teckstud?
post #8 of 172
I believe SJ.
post #9 of 172
Narayen should be interested in testing his hypothesis by having us all dump Flash and see what happens to system stability.
I rather like this idea of his.

I do feel a twinge of remorse over losing those whopping 100 flash apps in the App Store, though.
There... I feel better now.
post #10 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Narayen told the Journal that he views Jobs' letter as an "extraordinary attack," and questioned what Adobe did to deserve the letter.

Narayen did not say this. The very first line in the WSJ interview:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WSJ

Alan Murray begins the interview, calling Mr. Jobs's missive an "extraordinary attack." He asks Mr. Narayen what Adobe has done to deserve this.
post #11 of 172
Summary:
Quote:
New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind.

Apple CEO, Steve Jobs

Response:
Quote:
No thank you! We will continue to keep our heads firmly embedded in our buttocks.

Adobe CEO, Shantanu Narayen
post #12 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Narayen told the Journal that he views Jobs' letter as an "extraordinary attack," and questioned what Adobe did to deserve the letter.

Adobe has never showed what they think about Apple's decision on the matter? Newer pointed towards Cupertino in any situation? Newer has any representative of Adobe discussed Apple?

post #13 of 172
The Adobe executive said he believe's Adobe's cross-platform stance is more beneficial to businesses and developers, allowing to make their software available on a range of devices rather than deciding on just one. "It doesn't benefit Apple, and that's why you see this reaction," he said.


bingo...we have a winner.

Go Adobe.
post #14 of 172
Oh, I believe both of them.

What we have here are two closed, proprietary systems that aren't working very well together so they are pointing fingers.

It's like Republicans and Democrats pointing at eachother and yelling "sellout!"

They are both right.
post #15 of 172
You can't even respect the guy after he says that Flash doesn't have a problem with battery life. Every problem he has someone else to blame. Pathetic.

Engadget's JooJoo Review (for a real kick check out the video of Flash performance)

"First, it causes the entire tablet to get quite warm (especially when playing Flash video) and then it murders its battery life. The JooJoo's integrated three-cell battery repeatedly lasted 2.5 hours (just as we predicted!) during our moderate use, which included surfing the Web and playing short videos. JooJoo claims you can get 5 hours if you avoid Flash entirely, but that sort of defeats the purpose, right?"
post #16 of 172
The Adobe executive said he believe's Adobe's cross-platform stance is more beneficial to businesses and developers, allowing to make their software available on a range of devices rather than deciding on just one. "It doesn't benefit Apple, and that's why you see this reaction," he said.


bingo...we have a winner.

Go Apple.

It's a free country. Apple isn't forced to support any outdated technologies (SCSI, floppies, Flash...)

Sent from my iPhone Simulator

Reply

Sent from my iPhone Simulator

Reply
post #17 of 172
Flash is too heavy!

Giovanni B. Saccone
Creativity is just connecting things (Steve Jobs)
> > > My wEb SiTe < < <

Reply

Giovanni B. Saccone
Creativity is just connecting things (Steve Jobs)
> > > My wEb SiTe < < <

Reply
post #18 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"It doesn't benefit Apple, and that's why you see this reaction," he said.

True, true.. Adobe shot first in public though, didn't they? By commenting in public that Apple is trying to hurt Adobe. Like if Apple's policy is designed to specifically shut out Adobe, and nothing else.
Well well... Actually I'm glad it's not on Apple's Mobile OS X, after all it's (like in 99% of the case) just for commercials and games, and I completely agree with Steve Jobs in that Adobe should make an HTML5 software. It's a golden opportunity. I hope they realize it in time, for their own good.

Besides, I think Adobe's multi platform strategy shines through in the whole CS suite. They got over 20 years of development and research for this.. and still their software crash, misbehave, have a slow and sluggish UI. I imagine this is in part the result of their own multi platform strategy.
post #19 of 172
No Mr. Narayen, your products aren't bloated, ancient resource hogs.

What's to be said for a CEO in denial? Adobe's products reflect his "there's no problem" attitude.

Flash needs fucking hardware acceleration to increase it's speed so people can watch video without dragging their computers through the mud.
post #20 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by aitala View Post

Safari has been much more stable since I blocked Flash...

Eric

Same here, Eric.
www.GeekFitClub.com - A healthier lifestyle one byte at a time
Reply
www.GeekFitClub.com - A healthier lifestyle one byte at a time
Reply
post #21 of 172
Oh these two guys, what are they like? It's like the aftermath of a bad relationship where they both tell there sides of there story, and neither will ever corroborate to the truth of the matter.

I do however agree on Steve on this one, in regards to poor flash performance, anecdotal or otherwise, even with latest 10.1 release its still poorly optimized (though a little better).

On the other hand I can understand a lot of adobe's arguments about cross-porting code, I guess it does make it easier for moving platforms. But at the end of the day how much do Apple Dev kits cost these days? $99? Dirt cheap if you ask me.

And when your treating mac users as second class citizens with said ported code thats fairly shoddy, why should Steve be servile to Adobes strategy.

At the end of the day, this whole pulava could be solved by somebody pulling there head out of the sand and making some cracking html5 development software, you could still have your web authoring Monopoly cake and eat it Adobe if you act now!

Either way its gonna be an interesting few months...

(My 3rd ever comment dont bite! eeek!)
Powerbook G4 1.67 now with a cracked screen. Somebody is hinting I need an upgrade. FAST
Reply
Powerbook G4 1.67 now with a cracked screen. Somebody is hinting I need an upgrade. FAST
Reply
post #22 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Narayen told the Journal that he views Jobs' letter as an "extraordinary attack," and questioned what Adobe did to deserve the letter.

Maybe they deserve it because of all the company employees who have publicly bashed Apple and Steve Jobs over this issue. Adobe tacitly allows such comments from their employees.
post #23 of 172
HA HA!!!

My Windows PC at work goes nuts as soon as it snifs Flash. My Mac does NOT. I really agree with Steve Job here. Amen!

R.I.P Flash (even if it takes five years).
post #24 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Wow. I know it's Adobe, but I would have expected a substantive and lucid response.

The CEO's comments are as duplicitous, vague and misleading as Jobs' are clear and precise.

Shantanu Narayen = teckstud?

LMAO! That made my day.
post #25 of 172
To say is patently false that Flash drains the battery, whatever the reason, is patently false...
post #26 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

... Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen said he believes that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to his software, but instead are the fault of "the Apple operating system."
...

It's clear, despite the attempt of the Adobe CEO to interpret otherwise, that the references to crashes are all about Safari, Firefox, etc. crashing (or, freezing, requiring a forced quit) as a result of FlashPlayer, and not about the entire OS locking up.
post #27 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundCity View Post

(My 3rd ever comment dont bite! eeek!)

And a very fine "3rd ever comment" it was, too.

Finest I've seen since my own "3rd ever comment".

Looking forward to your 4th ever comment... especially if it quotes this, my own "169th ever comment" (or so).

Thompson
post #28 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

. . . The Adobe CEO said he believes that multi-platform options like Flash will "eventually prevail," because they allow developers to write software that can be used on a number of devices . . .

So tell me, why do developers need multi-platform options to display video? What's the reason for that again?
post #29 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Shantanu Narayen = teckstud?

LOL hysterical, if not a wee bit hypocritical.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #30 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

One only need look at their activity monitor or stop using Click2Flash to
see the deleterious effects of Flash on a Mac.

It's done...stick a fork in it.

No kidding, I first heard about Click2Flash on the forums here. Never surf again without it.
It's obvious where the problem is, so sad to see Adobe dinosaur themselves, but I think the trouble started with their 'creative suite' idea.
post #31 of 172
What did Adobe ever do? I first remember, was it Illustrator 7 or 8, where the Mac version was actually a downgrade in order to catch the Windows version up. I was still working in graphics then. So, after getting suckered into paying for it and getting ticked off, I switched to freehand, which in all ways but integration with a paint program was superior. Then Adobe buys Macromedia, shuts down Freehand, does not incorporate any of the advanced features as that may cut into their InDesign (or pagemaker) sales, and turns Flash into a monster. Since then, the capabilities on the Mac side have consistently lagged behind the windows side. Never mind the argument about the advanced stuff only working on windows, 99% of that is complete crap.

And what's this about the Mac OS being responsible. My mac almost never crashes, but when it does its either Flash running or Office (yes, really, I'm not just adding a random MS bash here). Adobe seems to be able to get its other apps running fine. Step up and explain this one in detail guys.

Apple is probably not the easiest company to work with, but Adobe's been nipping at them for a long time, and this might just be the beginning. Apple should either buy Adobe, but that now seems unlikely as it would be counterproductive to destroy the business first, or really compete like they did with Final Cut. But, take it seriously this time.
post #32 of 172
It's also interesting how Narayen conveniently ignores to respond to Symantec's claim of 'Flash having one of the worst security records in 2009.'
bb
Reply
bb
Reply
post #33 of 172
This interchange between CEO's really accentuates the difference in target markets for the two companies. Adobe sells products to companies and developers, so their products are designed to make life easier for companies and developers. Apple sells products to end consumers, so their products are designed to create the best possible experience for end consumers. The objectives of the two companies seem to be fundamentally at odds.

Developers would like to design/code once and use Adobe tools to implement on multiple platforms (without regard to the differences in capabilities between platforms), while Apple wants developers to take advantage of the capabilities of their devices, which differentiate them from the other competing platforms.
post #34 of 172
Take that, Steve!

(And, sniff, sniff, goodbye, Shantanu.......)
post #35 of 172
Ok, Mr. Narayen. If Apple's wrong, then there should be a full version of Flash running on all the different mobile platforms. After all, Adobe knows how to write lightweight, efficient software, right?

So where is it? Why is it that Windows Mobile doesn't have a full version of Flash? Symbian? WebOS? Even Android doesn't have a full version of Flash (although they at least have vaporware).

Even your vaporware is said to require an 800 MHz A8 processor - so by your own admission it won't run on the iPhone - even if Apple supported it.

And let's look at Flash's characteristics. Flash eats 120% CPU time simply accessing a simple web page on my system. Engadget's tests show that even hardware acceleration doesn't do much (besides, hardware acceleration only affects video, so it would have no impact on this site). So 120% CPU time on a simple menued Flash site that's 640x480x8bit EVEN WHEN IDLE. Yet I can sling around multi MB files with Photoshop with far less CPU time. iTunes uses less than 10% CPU time. iPhoto is less than 10% idle and less than 50% when working.

No one else seems to have a problem. There are lots of sites that play video just fine without hardware decoding - and very modest CPU times. Those that use hardware acceleration use single digit CPU percentages.

For that matter, what is with the argument that Apple never gave you access to hardware acceleration? Did no one ever tell you about CoreVideo? OpenGL? OpenCL? Maybe your programmers should learn about the tools available rather than insisting that they don't exist?

And please stop the 'poor me' crap. Does the phrase 'Screw you, Apple" mean anything to you? Apple is responding to your endless series of attacks and all the endless lies you keep feeding to journalists. I also strongly suspect that you have a lot of shills running around forums like this (dozens of people who have never posted before suddenly appear spreading FUD against Apple).

So why is this all Apple's fault?
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
Reply
post #36 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zendolphyn View Post

Same here, Eric.

Same here, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrg_uk View Post

It's clear, despite the attempt of the Adobe CEO to interpret otherwise, that the references to crashes are all about Safari, Firefox, etc. crashing (or, freezing, requiring a forced quit) as a result of FlashPlayer, and not about the entire OS locking up.

Flash is the only reason Safari crashes on my Mac. Safari practically never crashes otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

No kidding, I first heard about Click2Flash on the forums here. Never surf again without it.
It's obvious where the problem is, so sad to see Adobe dinosaur themselves, but I think the trouble started with their 'creative suite' idea.

Can't live without Click2Flash either. Makes surfing so much better.

iMac mid 2011 • 27 in • 3,4 GHz Core i7 • 32 GB RAM • AMD Radeon HD 6970M 2GB VRAM

Reply

iMac mid 2011 • 27 in • 3,4 GHz Core i7 • 32 GB RAM • AMD Radeon HD 6970M 2GB VRAM

Reply
post #37 of 172
And my Internet started to work much better after I installed Firefox.
post #38 of 172
Post removed by author.
post #39 of 172
Leadership at Adobe, please, just rebrand the company and call it Titanic.

You are rearranging the deck chairs while your company sinks around you.

Honestly though, I have been doing Tech Support/Help Desk and yes was an Apple Genius
for longer than I care to remember (I started support with the Apple IIe). In the last 5 years I have seen more crashes on a Mac from Adobe products, specifically Flash, than I have from ANY of the Mac for Office programs.

Its bloatware and it eats up processing cycles faster than you can say iPad.

I will celebrate with the rest of you when Flash is finally dead.
post #40 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I seem to recall Mozilla stating that Flash was the number cause of crashes along all platforms.

Yup. Flash crashes my Windows browsers, I've seen it crash Linux and Unix browsers.

So obviously the problem is inherent in ALL OSes, and has nothing to do with Flash.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Adobe CEO dismisses Steve Jobs' comments on Flash as a 'smokescreen'