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Adobe CEO dismisses Steve Jobs' comments on Flash as a 'smokescreen' - Page 4

post #121 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadIvan View Post

The web may be the future, but (hopefully) web browsers are not. Proprietary applications with embedded web services provide a vastly superior user experience, and that matters. For the record, I was developing 'web applications' in the 90s when it was CGI+Perl and then Java applets. I will be happy the day that the web browser as an application platform finally goes away, even though I know that probably won't happen. Browsers are great for discovering new content and services, but not for user interactions.

Enough people have been drawn to the "browser as an application platform" concept over the years that Javascript has become not only quite efficient but fairly well-specified and reliably implemented also. CSS never really achieved all it could, and HTML is much as it always was, but together with Javascript it does make for quite reasonable applications.

Run the SunSpider benchmark in your browser (for this purpose it doesn't matter much if you bias the result by doing other things at the same time) and take note of some of the things it tested, and how quickly it did them. While you're doing that, why not look at the SproutCore demos as an example of a UI toolkit for javascript.

Among other things, SunSpider claims to test ray tracing and AES encryption. And gets them done (although it's not clear exactly what it does for each) in some tens of milliseconds. I'd say that puts it well within the realms of reasonable desktop application performance.
post #122 of 172
Nice post iGrumble.
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post #123 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I'll take stupefying hypocrisy over incoherent, duplicitous bullshit.

My favourite is: Mr. Narayen calls accusations about Flash draining battery power "patently false."

I guess if something is "patently false" it's so obvious that you don't need to supply proof or even a reason to back up the claim as to do so would imply that it's not so patent. I think he could have diffused it with a comment about the upcoming Flash 10.1 uses HW acceleration which is useful in maintaining performance and using as little battery as possible.
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post #124 of 172
I just have a feeling a Photoshop Killer come in the mix with touch for ipad .
apple has been previewing them in iphoto and FCP
post #125 of 172
Since I've installed Click2Flash, my browser crashes has gone down to zero. My Mac OSX freezes and crashes has gown down to zero. So yeah Mr Adobe CEO. You need to carry a bigger shovel around when making statements about how the crashes is caused by Mac OS X and Safari.
post #126 of 172
Hilarious! The guy has played right in to Apple's hands by revealing that they are on the defensive and worried. The best thing he could have done was to say that the open letter was not worthy of comment. By trying to refute the content he as opened himself to ridicule.

When you look up the term open standard, it does not say "defacto standard." Creative Suite and office both run on both Mac and Windows, but I would hardly call them an open standard. There are some non-adobe flash players on the market, I wonder why Apple could not have created their own flash player and built it in to Safari.

Is PDF a standard now?

The reality is that it does not matter. Apple has chosen their path for now and we will have to see how things work out.
post #127 of 172
get out of the sand box, get on with life
post #128 of 172
It's his lie, he can tell it however he wants.
"One who forms a judgement on any point but cannot explain it clearly, might as well never have thought at all on the subject." Pericles
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"One who forms a judgement on any point but cannot explain it clearly, might as well never have thought at all on the subject." Pericles
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post #129 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcworth@charter.net View Post

Is PDF a standard now?

Yes, it is. It snuck in when no-one was looking, apparently in 2008 according to the Wikipedia article. "Print as PDF" is a fairly common option in modern document-based applications, and the open source world has had the confusingly-licenced implementation "Ghostscript" for many years. Adobe has done far worse things than creating PDF, although I would agree that some of the features they add are rather odd and Acrobat, ahem, sorry, Adobe Reader is far from the best PDF implementation for the common case (just reading a normal WYSIWYG document).
post #130 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archipellago View Post

The Adobe executive said he believe's Adobe's cross-platform stance is more beneficial to businesses and developers, allowing to make their software available on a range of devices rather than deciding on just one. "It doesn't benefit Apple, and that's why you see this reaction," he said.


bingo...we have a winner.

Go Adobe.

Sure more beneficial to businesses like everything else in western countries today.
I want a product most beneficial to me, the consumer.
Go Apple.

For video only sites, Flash isn't needed. (As Youtube, Vimeo, etc have show)
A huge number of OTHER sites that use flash aren't exactly suited to smaller mobile screens anyways. (Unless there is this huge zoom and scroll population I haven't noticed)

So the battle is really about Adobe maintaining a hold with Flash Media Server, not Flash per sa.
If Adobe was smart they'd be developing a HTML5/CSS based development and content server now.
post #131 of 172
It just slays me that Shantanu Narayen has allowed the discussion to come to: "Why does Flash suck?"

Forget Wired and CNET, this is now ABC material.

While this guy let his "evangelists" spew on their blogs, he's allowed someone else to frame the discourse and it will impact the public mindshare from this point forward -- with people who couldn't tell a plug-in from a power plug.

How is he even still CEO at Adobe?

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

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post #132 of 172
Ok we all know that S.J is a pain in the A&^ but we also know that when it comes to Tech he has basically been right on the mark. The Adobe CEO Where is his Credibility. Oh wait NONE. He should look at the big picture and get real facts, if he can. S.J was right on with his comments and I bet if you talked with others in the industry you would get a similar response.
Adobe has had it's head up it's tail end for some time in a lot of ways. As the Mobile age matures and less and less people use flash in development for apps for ALL mobile devices and we are not just talking apple here, then maybe they will come to see the light. or maybe a continued loss of market share for their apps. Would it not just be great if someone Like Apple stepped in and actually bought them oh how one could only wish for such a thing.
post #133 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

And yet they haven't ported the Adobe CS Suite to Linux.

There isn´t enough Linux market share to make it worthwhile.

Flash is available for Ubuntu Linux.





Apple makes rabid changes to their hardware and OS, expects third party developers to keep up.

Thing is Flash can´t run on the iPad, it´s not powerful enough. Smokescreen exactly.

Steve is making press using Flash as a target because he needs web sites to code versions for the iPad/touchscreen devices in addition to the Flash versions for regular computers.

Web sites still suck to navigate on the bigger screen iPad, ćause the finger as a mouse pointer is a new thing.

We are going to hear a lot more out of Steve, he´s on a mission. Sad thing, it´s looking like OS X is destined for the back burner.

hummm
post #134 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrumble View Post

Enough people have been drawn to the "browser as an application platform" concept over the years that Javascript has become not only quite efficient but fairly well-specified and reliably implemented also. CSS never really achieved all it could, and HTML is much as it always was, but together with Javascript it does make for quite reasonable applications.

Run the SunSpider benchmark in your browser (for this purpose it doesn't matter much if you bias the result by doing other things at the same time) and take note of some of the things it tested, and how quickly it did them. While you're doing that, why not look at the SproutCore demos as an example of a UI toolkit for javascript.

Among other things, SunSpider claims to test ray tracing and AES encryption. And gets them done (although it's not clear exactly what it does for each) in some tens of milliseconds. I'd say that puts it well within the realms of reasonable desktop application performance.

Javascript as a willing participant working with C/ObjC/C++/ObjC++/Java/ amongst other lesser deployed languages is what we are discussing.

Javascript isn't doing the heavy lifting. That's done by the big languages.
post #135 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

So you want me to speculate on why an app which doesn't exist today might possibly get better in some hypothetical future time frame?

More importantly, when the app that doesn't exist today that might possibly get better in some hypothetical future time frame, what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if Steve Jobs is revealed to be a cannibal? what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if every iPad turns out to be loaded with Anthrax? what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if OS X was purchased from Satan for $5,000? what will Apple's excuse be then?
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post #136 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

More importantly, when the app that doesn't exist today that might possibly get better in some hypothetical future time frame, what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if Steve Jobs is revealed to be a cannibal? what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if every iPad turns out to be loaded with Anthrax? what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if OS X was purchased from Satan for $5,000? what will Apple's excuse be then?

All good and important questions! We must be vigilant lest Apple loose more evil on us.
post #137 of 172
post #138 of 172
Apple has learned from its many mistakes. Adobe's Narayen has only achieved cost cutting profits but no new enhancements for the Mac. He also has pissed off his customer base with the a la MS authentication hassles and having the customers speak to India for help.

Additionally, one only has to look at Intuit to see how a third party can screw a Mac loyalist. We have had a shitty Quicken for multiple generations and from someone on Apple's board. Can you imagine the strangle hold a greedy and disinterested Adobe would have on Apple going forward.

I believe Steve is absolutely right. Let Narayen dance with the likes of Dell and Ballmer. When they start delivering quality in a customer friendly way I'll listen.
post #139 of 172
I know this may be an unreleased product, but there a new flash 10.1 rc2 GALA only for MAC OS X that enables hardware decoding now. Adobe is working as fast as they could. I would truly like to see html5 and flash work together, because i know they cant do they exact same things. people still use flash for cartoon animation(a bit weird but lol, thats what some companies like to use)

Flash Player Gala Preview Release

Unfortunately, it still uses 60% CPU on my macbook pro 3,1 on a youtube 1080p video .
sigh....darn it 8600gtm,

seems like hardware decoding only works on NVIDIA GeForce 9400M, GeForce 320M or GeForce GT 330M
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post #140 of 172
I am not sure why adobe is so protective of an software they only bought? flash, originally created by macromedia was snatched by adobe a few years back. back then adobe it self was tempted to abandoned flash, but for some reason they stuck to it. and now they fight for it like there is no tomorrow. why for god sake. just go with the flow. take the same people witch are working on flash and tell them to write the best html5 porting system, or what ever you'll call it. adobe is an great software company. PS, IND, AE, ... you are great. but why in gods name would you be so *bullheaded. And for the sake of argument, flash isn't the great in the first place. i hate flash based websites. they take for ever to load, even with an broadband connection. so, just give it up, do what "god" has told you and move on. ;-)
post #141 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

More importantly, when the app that doesn't exist today that might possibly get better in some hypothetical future time frame, what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if Steve Jobs is revealed to be a cannibal? what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if every iPad turns out to be loaded with Anthrax? what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if OS X was purchased from Satan for $5,000? what will Apple's excuse be then?

What if the Adobe Shills on AppleInsider come up with anything intelligent to say?

Never mind. I guess we can skip that one. There's no chance it's going to happen.
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Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #142 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Does this guy realized what happen the last time Jobs put out open letter to the world, it killed DRM on music.

I love it!
post #143 of 172
Before i make a deciding factor of whether or not i will abandon flash and move on, can html5 make websites like
http://www.imax.com and
http://www.avatarmovie.com (then click on your country flag if its there)?

I dont make those kinds of website, but i would still like to know if its possible.

if it can, i'm all in html5. the only thing i'm worried about is those people on firefox or other browsers that use that ogg format instead of the nice h264.
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post #144 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Shantanu Narayen = teckstud?

post #145 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwklam View Post

Before i make a deciding factor of whether or not i will abandon flash and move on, can html5 make websites like
http://www.imax.com and
http://www.avatarmovie.com (then click on your country flag if its there)?

I dont make those kinds of website, but i would still like to know if its possible.

if it can, i'm all in html5. the only thing i'm worried about is those people on firefox or other browsers that use that ogg format instead of the nice h264.

Why not?

Check Steve Jobs' Toy Story iAds demo to see what html 5 is capable of.
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post #146 of 172
I installed clicktoflash. I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aitala View Post

Safari has been much more stable since I blocked Flash...

Eric
post #147 of 172
Flail.

Multiple-platform is easy without Flash. Just learn each system, deploy code to each. Only stupid developers need flash ...
post #148 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by xamian View Post

So...is this why my MacBook's CPU heats up an additional 30-40+ degrees fahrenheit & my system begins to crawl whenever I watch hulu or play flashbased games (usually on facebook)? Certainly has no effect on battery life at all, right?

Go to http://www.youtube.com/html5 to opt in to use HTML 5
post #149 of 172
Lots of name-calling; not much in the way of substantive response.
post #150 of 172
This bonehead just pushed Steve-o's "I'll prove it to you" button.

You can bet there are about 10 guys working on an application to prove Flash battery drain.
post #151 of 172
I would like to point out that the iPhone has been out for 3 years and there is STILL no released version of full mobile flash. Yes, 10.1 will be available at some point this year, but 3 years? It's no wonder that Apple has put restrictions on the use of middleware for app creation if a company as huge as Adobe take 3 years just to release a plugin. Imagine how long it would take them to implement SDK changes.
post #152 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"We have different views of the world," Narayan reportedly said of Adobe and Apple. "Our view of the world is multi-platform."

The quickest way to a single platform world is to have a world where all platforms run the same things the same way.
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post #153 of 172
The iPhone will die if becomes just another mobile device to run your application on. Again, without using the latest featuers exposed in every release of the API, applicatiions wouldn't have any differentiators on the iPhone platform. The rest of the industry is playing hard to catch up to the iPhone and Adobe is trying to drag the iPhone down and put it on a level playing field with the other mobile devices. As a consumer, I say screw Adobe. I want the best application for my money.
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post #154 of 172
Flash is the 'PowerPoint' of the web.

I have blocked Flash on all of my PC's & Mac's for years now, and only ever activated it when absolutely necessary.

I will not be sad to see it disappear altogether.
post #155 of 172
"open specification"?????? Seriously??? No I mean SERIOUSLY???

How can he say that and expect anyone in their right mind to believe it? Ironically he does everything but say that Steve is flat out lying and then makes that open specification statement. LOL Not to mention the battery buck-passing and finger pointing at one of the highest rated Operating Systems in the world (which is one of the last to receive a quality Flash release).

I've lost ALL respect for Adobe and it is now not enough to only run a Flash blocker on my desktop for better performance, I'm going to uninstall Flash entirely and suggest that others in my institution do the same. In the many years I've blocked Flash I've only come across a small handful of instances where I wanted to use it... none of which I truly "needed" anyway.
post #156 of 172
Although this isn't directly related to the article, it seems that the discussion has talked enough about cross-platform development to make this worth saying.

SJ has said that it took Adobe so long to use Cocoa instead of Carbon, right? Adobe's defence is that it's easier to make things cross-platform with Carbon, yet this is dismissed as being lazy. And I kind of see the point about it being lazy.

That said, however, what's the most common piece of cross-platform software that Apple makes? iTunes. And that's written in Carbon, is it not? (I'm genuinely asking - I'm pretty sure it's Carbon, though).

So by SJ's own admission, the iTunes developers are lazy.


This post really isn't going to go down well here, is it?!
post #157 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Spot on all the way. Aldus did a better hand with Freehand before Macromedia got it too IMHO.

Apple need to address replacement apps for all those made by Adobe in the graphics field now ... or as you say buy freaking Adobe and fix everything. Mac graphics folks cannot be held hostage by Adobe having such a monopoly on the graphics field any longer.

+1 I'm with y'all on this point!

Was just talking with a client today about CS5, upgrading decisions... and it always comes down to,
"What other choices do we have?". Answer: slim to none.

Still hoping that Apple at least takes a stab at putting out a program to do HTML5 compliant web and iPad layout, etc.... iWeb Pro or something similar.
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post #158 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwklam View Post

Before i make a deciding factor of whether or not i will abandon flash and move on, can html5 make websites like
http://www.imax.com and
http://www.avatarmovie.com (then click on your country flag if its there)?

I dont make those kinds of website, but i would still like to know if its possible.

if it can, i'm all in html5. the only thing i'm worried about is those people on firefox or other browsers that use that ogg format instead of the nice h264.

Actually... yes and no.

First... just by having Flash as the drop in page is a no-no(!). IF I'm only interested in say Corporate Relations... I can't even get there without the ability to be using Flash.

Second. What's so special about the loaded graphics and navigation bar? You do realize that those hover effects will never work with a touch based system. Also, they could have been just as efficiently with Javascript and/or CSS transformations... without the animated "bling". That includes the GoogleMaps function as well (IMAX.com).

Third. GoogleMaps integration. Nice... but why? DI want my information WITHOUT bling. It's just NOT necessary. It's cute, but obfuscates usability for the sake of effects. Well... on second thought, maybe it fits the genre and the movies being promoted(?)
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post #159 of 172
Just in case anyone missed this on Engadjet re: JooJoo review, as it pertains to Flash in particular:

*******
But what about Flash?
This is supposed to be the big differentiator, right? The iPad killer!

In an interesting move, Fusion Garage coupled the Atom processor with NVIDIA's Ion graphics to aid in playing full screen Flash video (or for doing... something). Unfortunately, the software just isn't there yet. Currently the device is running Flash 10.1 beta 1, and won't have hardware-accelerated Flash video for a good while now (the timing is partly reliant on Adobe support, and is labelled as a "work in progress" by JooJoo). That means some regular-sized YouTube and Hulu works, as decoded by the CPU, but full screen Hulu is jittery, and a 720p YouTube clip is like watching a slideshow. In one of the biggest moves of irony, JooJoo has actually implemented a hack for YouTube where you can view a video in Flash or in "JooJoo" mode which is a straight playback of the MPEG video file every YouTube video harbors. What does this remind us of? HTML 5, albeit with a less elegant implementation. This of course only works on YouTube right now, though JooJoo says it plans on supporting other sites in the future. Watch the video below for yourselves to see all this Flash tragedy play out.
********

Emphasis added by me.

So how is it the Flash is only Apple's problem again? Seems to me that SJ is just being SJ, and is never going to relinquish control of his company or products to Adobe or any other company... for a PLUGIN!

I say, thanks for making a "The Stand" against waiting for Flash and Adobe!
"Relient on Adobe my A**"

PS. I realize that this review of the JooJoo was before recent revisions of Flash 10.2 or Gala, or whatever Adobe is trying to call it now. Why do I think that the results will still be the same?
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post #160 of 172
Flash is like a cul-de-sac the web has wandered down, and we're pretty much at the end of where it can take us. We need to get off this street and on to a different one if we want the web to keep advancing. Even if, as some are insisting, we have to turn around and go back a bit to do this. (Although, I don't think we have to go back very far, if at all) Flash really needs to die so the web can advance without Adobe and it's tottering technology holding it back.
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