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post #41 of 81
4/30/10 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacApfel View Post

Of course it's the future. Steve said so, already!

obvious. it can't be the past or the present because it doesnt exist yet as a standard. call me in 5 years when the adoption rates make this relevant news.

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post #42 of 81
4/30/10 at 9:09am
Where are the Jobs / Apple haters who yesterday called him a liar and control freak? The ones who said H.264 is not open and junk and who blame Apple for everything wrong in our society?

Are H.264 and HTML5 okay now to the Apple haters since MSFT now blesses and backs them?

Can we all finally agree that Flash is on its way out and two of the biggest tech companies say Flash has issues and HTML5 is the future?
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post #43 of 81
4/30/10 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Another JS library is only going to further muddy the waters. We need a GUI based authoring environment so we have timeline based keyframes and tweening. HTML5 will not support shape tweening either. Maybe some crude hackish SVG method but it has a long way to go to reach the sophistication of Flash, especially in the creation tools area.

There's nothing stopping Adobe from working out a way to export HTML5 from the Flash IDE.

The ideal outcome would be for Adobe to support the export of a whole bunch of formats... native apps for the mobile platforms, HTML and the Flash plugin.

We all know who the giant dummy spitting baby is that wreaked that idea though.
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post #44 of 81
4/30/10 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Another JS library is only going to further muddy the waters. We need a GUI based authoring environment so we have timeline based keyframes and tweening. HTML5 will not support shape tweening either. Maybe some crude hackish SVG method but it has a long way to go to reach the sophistication of Flash, especially in the creation tools area.

Flash is very object oriented in terms of loading objects inside of other objects and communicating between them. As opposed to canvas code which has to coexist with all the other unrelated JS on the page. With all the animations and interactivity that I would like to mash together, it gets really difficult to keep those complex interactions organized because there are no RAD tools to do it with.

Agree 110%!! An IDE with a timeline, library, snippets etc...is definitely needed and it seems to me Adobe would be the best candidate. You are really preaching to the choir here, I am not one of the many Flash haters on these boards because I am well aware of the strengths it brings to development. All that being said philosophically I do agree with the open source stance and theoretically I do believe it is possible and is trending that way. Realistically? It's going to be awhile and its going to take a product not yet invented, because Sproutcore is NOT going to cut it.

Also to clarify, JS Harmony is not another JS library but an evolution of the JS language itself upon which libraries are built. For those who don't know. Actionscript 3 (Flash) is actually based on ECAMScript (Javascript) and is nearly identical syntactically and it includes many of the features that developers would love to see eventually implemented in JS.
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post #45 of 81
4/30/10 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacApfel View Post

Of course it's the future. Steve said so, already!

I was already thinking this when I saw your post.
My thought was "Of course it is, Apple's going that route, so why wouldn't Microsoft follow."

Apple = trailblazer.
Microsoft = follower ... when it can.
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post #46 of 81
4/30/10 at 9:38am
Put simply, all major broswers will be supporting the use of HTML5, the next new standard, rather than relying on an old and still buggy non-standard...

This shouldn't bother anyone, beside Flash developers with no other skills..and obviously, Adobe. But they have other products, and if they fire their CEO and entire board of directors, they might be able to save those products, and deliver something great in a few years.
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post #47 of 81
4/30/10 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

This shouldn't bother anyone, beside Flash developers with no other skills..


There is no such thing. ActionScript 3 is almost syntactically identical to JS as they are both based on ECMA, so anyone who knows ActionScript 3 well at all will have little trouble picking up Javascript. That isn't the issue.

The problem isn't the languages. It's the IDE and the ubiquity. The amount of work required to something using JS/XML/CSS/HTML (AJAX) is much greater than it is using the Flash plug-in.

Higher bandwidth is required to develop and test because not all browsers offer the same support for JS. The result is that less money is made because clients don't want to pay more for JS development than they do for Flash. The end result of this is that less money means little motivation. If the industry forces a change so be it, but until then small shops that already have to underbid every project anyway aren't going to start doing more work for less money. Thats just my two-cents.
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post #48 of 81
4/30/10 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post





Sounds like where iOS is now compared to Android. We'll know more when the new iPhone is released, but from the current announcements, it sounds like iOS is just adding some features intended to catch up to Android 2.1.
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post #49 of 81
4/30/10 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

I, for one, won't dis MS for this bit of news.

MS has a lot of clout. For them to make this statement about Flash right after Steve's dissertation...

... Flash is definitely dead.

not dead. but dying sure.

What is dead is Adobe being able to claim it's all just Jobs having a bug up his butt to have one. It says a lot when a big name like Microsoft goes on record for the other side, even if it's a vague 'has issues'
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post #50 of 81
4/30/10 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

obvious. it can't be the past or the present because it doesnt exist yet as a standard. call me in 5 years when the adoption rates make this relevant news.


Exactly. It is obvious that it is the future.

The problem is with the folks who pretend it is the present.
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post #51 of 81
4/30/10 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

The problem is with the folks who pretend it is the present.

Android browser - PRESENT
Internet Explorer 8 on Windows - PRESENT
WebOS OS and browser - PRESENT and PRESENT
Safari on iPhone OS, Mac OS and Windows - PRESENT, PRESENT and PRESENT
Chrome on Mac OS, Windows and Linux - PRESENT, PRESENT and PRESENT
Opera on Mac OS, Windows and Linux - PRESENT, PRESENT and PRESENT
Firefox on Mac OS, Windows, Linux and Meamo - PRESENT, PRESENT, PRESENT and PRESENT

Sure looks like HTML5 is being used in present in browser engines already. This is where you switch up your argument to say that since the entirety of HTML5 isn't being used or that since it's still a draft that these uses of HTML5 that it doesn't count.
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post #52 of 81
4/30/10 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

Sounds like where iOS is now compared to Android. We'll know more when the new iPhone is released, but from the current announcements, it sounds like iOS is just adding some features intended to catch up to Android 2.1.

Call me when the Android UX improves. Then we'll talk.

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post #53 of 81
4/30/10 at 11:04am
OMG, hell has frozen over. Quick, grab your ice skates!

I am genuinely impressed by this, but I'm going to temper my enthusiasm with a bit of "I'll believe it when I see it." I hope this isn't one of M$'s "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" attempts.
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post #54 of 81
4/30/10 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Call me when the Android UX improves. Then we'll talk.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple.
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post #55 of 81
4/30/10 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple.

Pot.

Kettle.

Black.

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post #56 of 81
4/30/10 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacApfel View Post

Of course it's the future. Steve said so, already!

Apple, Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, Opera Software, and a bunch of other companies say so.

The only one betting on Flash is Adobe.
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post #57 of 81
4/30/10 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz View Post

Is it just me or is this guy on every thread?


Anyway, as for IE9 and HTML5 all I can say is THANK GOD. Unfortunately there are still millions (yes millions) of people still using Satan (IE 6), so even when IE 9 is released it will be awhile before we can move away from Flash. But MS and Jobs are both right theoretically, HTML + JS + CSS3 does == the death of Flash. But it won't be until IE9 over takes the older IE versions in global market share.

The most exciting part about IE9 for me is the DOM level 3 support for JS, which is what really allows JavaScript to do anything even remotely like Flash and what most people mean when they say HTML5 is replacing Flash. For those of you who care about semantics, HTML5 is NOT replacing Flash, HTML/JS/AJAX/CSS is. And the most critical part of that puzzle is JS which has been a nightmare to develop with any kind of consistency across browsers until recently (webkit / html5) and is still being held up by IE8.

All these examples you see going around with fancy HTML5 + JS implementations are only running well on webkit browsers which basically means they are useless in the real world. IE9 however will finally bring MS into the present day and hopefully change all that. Now if we could only get the corporate world to abandon IE7 and XP we could really free the web.

What does GOD have to do with humans writing standards?
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post #58 of 81
4/30/10 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

Sounds like where iOS is now compared to Android. We'll know more when the new iPhone is released, but from the current announcements, it sounds like iOS is just adding some features intended to catch up to Android 2.1.

That's amazing! I look at Android's API and it's sparse by comparison to the iPhone OS API.
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post #59 of 81
4/30/10 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

What does GOD have to do with humans writing standards?

Well I'm not a religious man so nothing to me really. Just a figure of speech.
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post #60 of 81
4/30/10 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Pot.

Kettle.

Black.

I liked the way you turned that around. My first laugh of the day, thanks!
I'm not commenting on the content (iOS vs Android) as I have no beef with Android, but the delivery.
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post #61 of 81
4/30/10 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotOn View Post

This generation of MacBook Pro´s might be the last, Apple might introduce some sort of iPad/MacBook Air combination device with the lower powered A4 processors.

I think you're right about laptops going away but not about the timing.

On another forum earlier this month I predicted that Apple would stop making laptops in two years. It will replace them with much more powerful iPads that have greater connectivity to external devices with USB 3 or other connectors. The iPhone OS will evolve to be more powerful and programs will be a la carte via the app store.

Apple will pare down its desktops to a powerful iMac and maybe keep a Mac Pro. Desktop computers today can do what top of the line Mac Pros could do three years ago. In another two years the home version of an iMac will be able to do any type of movie editing that is done at movie studios right now. The iPad with just a few tweaks could replace a Mac Mini today if it had more connectors.

It sounds outrageous today to make such a prediction. In two years we'll see what happens.

This is what Steve Jobs said at the end of the iPad presentation; "When you feel all this power, and this much fun, and the internet in your hands, you'll never wanna go back."

Smallwheels
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post #62 of 81
4/30/10 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

That's amazing! I look at Android's API and it's sparse by comparison to the iPhone OS API.

What sorts of stuff are you referring to specifically?
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post #63 of 81
4/30/10 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


As evidence? My Mac IIsi (20 MHz PPC) opened apps in a few seconds and did most tasks with little or no significant delay. My iMac (2,800 MHz with 2 processors and 100 times the RAM and dramatically faster GPU) also opens apps in a few seconds.

I totally agree but the IIsi was way pre PPC - it was a Motorola CISC 68020 IIRC. Weird little machine with 1 sideways Nubus slot I think. We had a couple at school.
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post #64 of 81
4/30/10 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnbob View Post

I totally agree but the IIsi was way pre PPC - it was a Motorola CISC 68020 IIRC. Weird little machine with 1 sideways Nubus slot I think. We had a couple at school.

But that's exactly the point. The user experience hasn't changed all that much in 20 years. Apps still take a couple of seconds to launch. You can still work in real time, but if you do anything really heavy duty, it slows down.

Granted, I'm now working on a 1900x1200 screen at millions of colors vs 1024x768 back then, but the point is that you can choose almost any two years in computer history and software CPU demand has kept pace with CPU power. If your app doesn't work well today, thinking that's OK because future computers will be faster is a lousy strategy.
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post #65 of 81
4/30/10 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

But that's exactly the point. The user experience hasn't changed all that much in 20 years. Apps still take a couple of seconds to launch. You can still work in real time, but if you do anything really heavy duty, it slows down.

Granted, I'm now working on a 1900x1200 screen at millions of colors vs 1024x768 back then, but the point is that you can choose almost any two years in computer history and software CPU demand has kept pace with CPU power. If your app doesn't work well today, thinking that's OK because future computers will be faster is a lousy strategy.

That's a very "chicken or the egg" question.

As a developer, i can see where most of this effect comes from, so let me explain..

Most programmers working with compiled code compile it on their own workstations rather than an external server. Thus, to speed up compiling, they tend to buy the bleeding edge hardware an average user either can not afford, or will not buy until his current machine fails in a year or longer.

So, the developer judges app performance based on performance he gets with his top-of-the-line hardware, and not the present level of average hardware in use.

Then, in time, when that app version gains wide distribution, hardware will have caught up to some degree, so users are not too vocal with their complaints.



Dan
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post #66 of 81
4/30/10 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz View Post

Is it just me or is this guy on every thread?


Anyway, as for IE9 and HTML5 all I can say is THANK GOD. Unfortunately there are still millions (yes millions) of people still using Satan (IE 6), so even when IE 9 is released it will be awhile before we can move away from Flash. But MS and Jobs are both right theoretically, HTML + JS + CSS3 does == the death of Flash. But it won't be until IE9 over takes the older IE versions in global market share.

The most exciting part about IE9 for me is the DOM level 3 support for JS, which is what really allows JavaScript to do anything even remotely like Flash and what most people mean when they say HTML5 is replacing Flash. For those of you who care about semantics, HTML5 is NOT replacing Flash, HTML/JS/AJAX/CSS is. And the most critical part of that puzzle is JS which has been a nightmare to develop with any kind of consistency across browsers until recently (webkit / html5) and is still being held up by IE8.

All these examples you see going around with fancy HTML5 + JS implementations are only running well on webkit browsers which basically means they are useless in the real world. IE9 however will finally bring MS into the present day and hopefully change all that. Now if we could only get the corporate world to abandon IE7 and XP we could really free the web.

Ok nevermind: you did say "abandon xp"

But i doubt they will be willing to upgrade that much hardware in such a poor economy...
-------
Keep dreaming..... about IE9.


The problem is that only Vista and Windows 7 support IE9.

But there are netbooks sold as we speak that run only XP.

The corporate network machines that are running IE6 right now are XP.

The only people that will get IE9 for XP is the hackers willing to put the time and effort to upgrade XP to DirectX 11, and patch the installer to ignore other issues....that is, if IE 9 isn't using some other new API that is completely tied to Vista/7....

So...Flash and old IE bugs will get at least another 5 year stay of execution


Sad, i know..



Dan
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post #67 of 81
4/30/10 at 5:50pm
so....if flash is dying like this, and 3 major browsers have already moved to html5, will browsers like firefox die too? lol
i have tested both ogg and h264, and i like mainconcepts(i think it squeezes in a bit more quality more than apples, but very tiny) h264 better than anything ogg produces.
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post #68 of 81
4/30/10 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwklam View Post

so....if flash is dying like this, and 3 major browsers have already moved to html5, will browsers like firefox die too? lol
i have tested both ogg and h264, and i like mainconcepts(i think it squeezes in a bit more quality more than apples, but very tiny) h264 better than anything ogg produces.

Nah....

3d party plugins will enable Firefox and Opera to render video tags containing h264...

Of course, Flash will continue to thrive on the still-decent-sized XP+IE8 user base



Dan
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post #69 of 81
4/30/10 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwklam View Post

so....if flash is dying like this, and 3 major browsers have already moved to html5, will browsers like firefox die too? lol
i have tested both ogg and h264, and i like mainconcepts(i think it squeezes in a bit more quality more than apples, but very tiny) h264 better than anything ogg produces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DayRobot View Post

Nah....

3d party plugins will enable Firefox and Opera to render video tags containing h264...

Of course, Flash will continue to thrive on the still-decent-sized XP+IE8 user base



Dan

oh and for a side note, if anyone has used flash 10.1 rc2 or flash GALA(if you mac has anything above a nvidia 9400gtm), you would have noticed flash is faster than html5 canvas by a hell of a lot. but html5 is still in development also......so i guess for now i'll combine html5 and flash on my websites where needed to achieve the fastest performance possible with the least amount of cpu usage. but anything viewed on the iphone os(or anything without flash), the flash will be replaced by something just for the iphone os .
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post #70 of 81
4/30/10 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwklam View Post

oh and for a side note, if anyone has used flash 10.1 rc2 or flash GALA(if you mac has anything above a nvidia 9400gtm), you would have noticed flash is faster than html5 canvas by a hell of a lot. but html5 is still in development also......so i guess for now i'll combine html5 and flash on my websites where needed to achieve the fastest performance possible with the least amount of cpu usage. but anything viewed on the iphone os(or anything without flash), the flash will be replaced by something just for the iphone os .

I don't believe canvas has hardware acceleration, yet.

IE9 and Firefox builds with hardware acceleration provide similar performance....

So it'll take time before the two are equally good.

If you are developing for the iPhone, sometimes it's best to use css transforms and then merge the final image back into canvas, for best performance...tricky, eh?



Dan

P.S. Web dev is still a minefield, and will be for years to come...
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post #71 of 81
4/30/10 at 9:29pm
Dear All,

I waiting for extremeskater and Teckstud to say "but Flash has got 90% of the market share, since 90% of market share is windows applications" That argument will not incorrect was always weak and open to attack, since mobile market is a completely different ball game.

Now MS have come out and indirectly supported Apple's way forward with concern to web support in terms of media content. Adobe I would be very worried concerning your flash product, since your growth was always dependent on support from MS and its massive marketshare in all levels of society.

It would just take one MS ad promoting IE9 with HTML5 support plus other new features and that would be nail in your coffin.
The Adobe CEO to say that OSX is the issue, guess what, that is clueless, dumbass argument which has now been trashed by MS, since MS where also reporting performance and stability issues with its windows operating system.
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post #72 of 81
4/30/10 at 10:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Another JS library is only going to further muddy the waters. We need a GUI based authoring environment so we have timeline based keyframes and tweening. ...

I think the point is that we need mature JS libraries to do just that, and they will come. Obviously it would be ideal if these are somewhat transparent to the creative talent creating the content and integrated into GUI tools, and this will come too. Coexisting with other JS content on the page can be handled by namespacing the library so that there aren't conflicts with other code.
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post #73 of 81
5/1/10 at 3:41am
Check out this cool video. In short: after Flash Player 10.1 comes out it'll be so much faster than HTML5...

http://vimeo.com/10553088

Flash Player 10.1 on Nexus One runs circles over HTML5 Canvas on iPhone 3GS... Sad but true.
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post #74 of 81
5/1/10 at 3:49am
IE6-crap, IE7-crap, IE-8 getting there, Vista-crap - Microsoft pull your socks up

iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad - No Flash but sold as full internet products. Apple has had a core of creatives that has relied on Adobe products in the print and web world. To turn their back on Adobe to create an App Store island could surely backfire. The web needs to be open source that promotes cross platform creativity. With the announcement of Android and ChromeOS Apple is burning its bridges and locking its doors. How many people out there use Adobe creative products? Flash is an excellent product and has been right up to the point where Steve 'apple is cash rich" Jobs says so. The future will be HTML5 & Flash - the user will decide by what content is on offer. Flash 10 will deliver excellent touch interfaces designed by creative groups and individuals who can use a synergy of Photoshop, Illustrator, Fireworks, Dreamweaver, Flex and Flash.

One thing to be sure of - Adobe Flash will not die. The gloves are off. Flash Apps stores for new mobile devices will be popping up and Apple customers will not be a part of it. Shame really.
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post #75 of 81
5/1/10 at 6:09am
hmm can i ask why mac fans are calling microsoft a me too company? Didnt apple release a smart phone after everybody else did? Didnt apple release an mp3 player after other companies created them ?

Didnt apple Use the mouse after xerox created it?

Come on Dont be hypocrites.

Also everybody always bashed microsoft for not supporting standards but when they do they get bashed as followers? Come on .

Microsoft has been helping in the creation of html 5 and has been touting it since 2007 so saying microsoft is following apple is wrong.

Microsoft agreeing with apple here is only a good thing. Means pages will start to look the same on safari and ie and will mean a better web for everybody .
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post #76 of 81
5/1/10 at 8:02am
.

"Following Apple co-founder Steve Jobs ..."

.

Yep, that pretty much sums up Microsoft

.

End of Story

.

-30-
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post #77 of 81
5/1/10 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyourownthing View Post

it would do us all a lot of good if they killed IE instead, which does exist, unfortunately

I wish they had really done it. It is probably the slowest and most lame browser available today


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post #78 of 81
5/1/10 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gotApple View Post

Check out this cool video. In short: after Flash Player 10.1 comes out it'll be so much faster than HTML5...

http://vimeo.com/10553088

Flash Player 10.1 on Nexus One runs circles over HTML5 Canvas on iPhone 3GS... Sad but true.

Uh, if you don't mind, I'll wait to see what actually ships where 3rd party benchmarks can measure actual performance and battery life. Because, right now, that's just a video that could be anything.

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post #79 of 81
5/1/10 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Uh, if you don't mind, I'll wait to see what actually ships where 3rd party benchmarks can measure actual performance and battery life. Because, right now, that's just a video that could be anything.

That's not true at all. Didn't you see the Microsoft Courier video?

Oh, wait...

Never mind.
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post #80 of 81
5/2/10 at 7:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyourownthing View Post

what do you expect from a me too company? a me too statement

lame...

Actually, when it comes to open standards, Microsoft has been anything but. This is cool news. Great news for web designers and developers.
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