I am tired of this BS!!!

What in the world are you getting all worked up about?

This was a joke, and a good one at that.

And, from what I've heard, the shirts are immensly popular.

[quote]Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent:
<strong>

My problem is this: A non-white person can celebrate their "heritege" without recourse. But a white person is labeled a racist if they do the same.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Amen. I think it should go even a step farther than this team. You know all those schools that take shit for calling their teams Indians, or Braves, or Warriors, or Redskins; THEY shound change THEIR names to Fightin' Whities out of protest, now that would be somethin'!

Actually, I heard this on 850 AM in Boston the other day, but I couldn't find a link for it online.

There was a group trying to the get the local high school team's name/logo changed and they refused saying, "What's the big deal?"

So this group decided to do the same thing. So what's the problem here? They WANTED people to complain and make the same arguments that they did against the other sports teams.

Actually, I think it's great. What better way to show people they are wrong then by satiring it?

wow. I've seen people wearing those shirts here in NYC and I had no idea what they were. thanks for the link

Dear Think:

It depends what you intend with the white thing; if you are saying that because you are you are better than others; that mixed race couples cannot be married that African or Asian or Latino Americans cannot go to the same schools, work in the same places, have exactly the same advantages than the white than there is something really wrong in celebrating the fact that you are white. And why would you want to celebrate this fact alone; isn't being an American more important than the color of your skin??

As to the White Pride thing, ponder for a minute the history of the White people. We (as I am in that group) have accomplished a great many positive things - the American Constitution is probably one of the greatest gifts to civilization in history (OK, I know a lof of you will disagree), for example. Unfortunately, our history also includes a very long list of horrendous acts against virtually every other ethnic group on the planet. We get to take "pride" in slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, genocide against the American Indians, exploitation of immigrants for sweat-shop labor (Irish, Chinese, Mexicans, many others). And the list goes on and on and on. To the various groups who have been victims of oppression over the centuries, "White Pride" sounds like you're glad your ancestors did what they did and you'd like to do it again (not that you would, but that's the impression it gives).

Which brings up the knotty question of when do we get to leave behind the sins of our forefathers? I have not personally done any of those awful things, but I have benefitted indirectly from the results of those acts. As I type this, I am sitting in my house on land that was forcefully taken from the Cherokees back in 1837. Part of me feels bad about it, but another part of me says that it was over 150 years ago and I can't change the past, so that's just the way it is. I find myself conflicted with thoughts like that on an almost daily basis. Maybe I'm just neurotic.

Anyway, my $0.02 worth. Your mileage may vary.

Thinkging Different is right. It's about time to put an end to White Guilt. I see nothing wrong with this myself.

Agreed and agreed. We don't have racial equality. We have reverse racism, or 'turning the tables' if you will.

A great example that interests most people is that my high school has clubs for different minorities, blacks among them, one is called "Minority Scholars," and it gets you special scholarships and experiences and opportunities. It's a selective little club. No white people allowed. There is even a class about "African American History." Why is there no "White European American History" class? Simply because that would be "discriminating" against all of the other races of America. Lame.

EOE... let's not even go there.

[quote]Originally posted by bradbower:
<strong>Why is there no "White European American History" class?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because you learn "White European American History" in every history lesson all throughout your life in school.

Consider this: The United States was founded on oppression, slavery, and genocide - oppression against Mexicans, slavery against Africans, and genocide against Native Americans.

When we took over half of Mexico as part of our "Manifest Destiny," we took over their land and then told them to go home. But they were home. They didn't cross the border, the border crossed them.

We brought Africans over as slaves. they fought and fought and fought to get where they are today. They started out as sub-human 200 years ago and still are discriminated against daily.

We killed the entire Native American race. They are gone. We wiped them out. Genocide. This was worse than Hitler, worse than Stalin.

If a minority groups wants to have a club at your school, or anywhere, let them have it. Let them have their "African American Club" or their "Latino Club." Let them celebrate their heritage, their culture, let them stand up and say "this is who I am." If you want to have a "White Club," go right ahead. Then you too can celebrate your heritage - that of oppression, that of slavery, and that of genocide. Then you too can say "this is who I am and it makes me proud."

My problem is this: A non-white person can celebrate their "heritege" without recourse. But a white person is labeled a racist if they do the same.

Its all part of that mind set that "you need to give the underprivleged a leg up" in order to eliminate the "isms". Its a sign of stupidity.
"Lets reduce prejeduce by making a greater gap between the races". All it does is create hate (umm... whats the average mans opinion of feminists? I rest my case).

This is like the straight pride thing that went around a while ago. I HAVE to get one of those shirts.

edit:
Actually what Im thinking of starting at my university is a guys club. We have a womans club that no guys are allowed in, so a "gentlemens club" would be a nice statment.
"We have beer party, beer bashes, keggards, its just wonderful Marge!"-Homer (not an exact quote) Simpson

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: The Toolboi ]</p>

If a minority groups wants to have a club at your school, or anywhere, let them have it. Let them have their "African American Club" or their "Latino Club." Let them celebrate their heritage, their culture, let them stand up and say "this is who I am." If you want to have a "White Club," go right ahead. Then you too can celebrate your heritage - that of oppression, that of slavery, and that of genocide. Then you too can say "this is who I am and it makes me proud."

So I guess the latino and Black clubs will ONLY be discussing and 'celebrating' the BAD things they do. Ah yes, thats EXACTLY what happens. You do know that while whites were mainly responsible for the introduction of black slavery to the Americas (and it's not like whitey invented slavery. It's as old as prostitution) that much of slaves were round up by opposing tribes in an effort to advance their own tribe?

Anyway, lets just be glad THAT ugly chapter is done with.

[quote]Originally posted by crawlingparanoia:
<strong>If you want to have a "White Club," go right ahead. Then you too can celebrate your heritage - that of oppression, that of slavery, and that of genocide. Then you too can say "this is who I am and it makes me proud."</strong><hr></blockquote>

A. If I had a "White Club," I wouldn't be allowed to actually keep it, I would probably get sued, disciplined, suspended (if not expelled), beat up/gunned down, stabbed, run over, I'd lose friends, and become generally hated by everyone as it would be considered racist and anti-minority. I couldn't "go right ahead" and have my "White Club," even if I wanted to do so, I'd be met with so much hate and violence. That's what this discussion is about--how the past and everyone's (whites' included) mistakes have molded society into a sort of reverse-racist mentality.

B. My heritage is a lot more than oppression and slavery. To say such a thing is just inane. I'm not proud of what some of my race's ancestors have done in regards to some other races, but to say that as if it were a reason why I could not celebrate my heritage or take pride in saying "this is me" really shows how one-sided you're looking at the picture. This argument you've made is the epitome of reverse racism. It's even worse than just "reverse racism," though, because you're infringing on my rights and offending my sensibilities as some sort of punishment for the actions of what you can only assume are my ancestors, or in other words, because of my race.

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: bradbower ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent:
<strong>ooohhh, The washington white skins.. I LOVE it.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Personally I'm partial to "The Fighting Whities".

Or maybe, to be inline with another recent thread I posted in, the Washingon Redskins would just be better off calling themselves "The Men"

But then that wouldn't work because there are non-fare-skinned people on the Redskins, and "The Man" is clearly and evil white guy sitting in a big leather chair, in an underground bunker, controlling all the unfairness that goes on in the world. He especially dislikes African-American people and picks on them every chance he gets. BUT, they just can't seem to locate this asshole and teach him a lesson.

Very sad. I imagine they'll find Bin Laden before they find "The Man."

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> :eek:

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>

[quote] from crawlingparanoia:
If you want to have a "White Club," go right ahead. Then you too can celebrate your heritage - that of oppression, that of slavery, and that of genocide. Then you too can say "this is who I am and it makes me proud."<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
You sure you're not from Berkeley? Jeezus what an assinine thing you wrote. F*ck off with your propagandist bullcrap, OK? What you imply is just as ass-backwards and destructive-minded as some four-toothed redneck in Alabama saying "Them ni--ers ain't never done nothin' for this country."

You think there aren't any cultures from Africa or Asia or the Middle-East who have as a part of their heritage slavery, genocide and other attrocities against humanity? Read the newspaper lately? While you're at it wake the f*ck up and go read about the slaughter-fests in African [civil wars], the Armenian genocide and what the Japanese did to the Phillipinos and others during WWII. History is FILLED with the chronicles of evil, twisted people. And here's the rub in case you're too dense to figure it out - THEY WEREN'T ALL "WHITE"!

EVERY racial group has its bright moments and its shameful ones, so don't make lame-ass generalizations like the ones you made.


[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crawlingparanoia:
[QB]

Consider this: The United States was founded on oppression, slavery, and genocide - oppression against Mexicans, slavery against Africans, and genocide against Native Americans.
Consider this:America was founded by people escaping oppression from ENGLAND. Lazy, stupid Americans did CAPITALIZE on the slavery issue..however it was already in existence in Africa long before whites ever went there. The Africans SOLD their own to whites for slavery, so let us blame the real root of this evil, Africans. White Americans were just as wrong for exploiting slavery for their personal profit..however whites did not invent this practice.

We brought Africans over as slaves. they fought and fought and fought to get where they are today. They started out as sub-human 200 years ago and still are discriminated against daily.
Yes this is true, however why are many private buiseneses FORCED to hire someone because they are a minority? What about the Upward Mobility Program where a minority must be promoted up the ladder becuse he/she is a minority? Is this not discrimination to someone who may have a degree or be better qualified for a job position but can't get it because of their being white?

We killed the entire Native American race. They are gone. We wiped them out. Genocide. This was worse than Hitler, worse than Stalin.
The most embarrasing part of being white in America..the stealing from the REAL Native American..but genocide is a little overboard here and I for one would like to see real statistical figures on this so called "genocide" compared to Hitler and Stallin.

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by TJM:
<strong>We get to take "pride" in slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, genocide against the American Indians, exploitation of immigrants for sweat-shop labor (Irish, Chinese, Mexicans, many others). And the list goes on and on and on. To the various groups who have been victims of oppression over the centuries, "White Pride" sounds like you're glad your ancestors did what they did and you'd like to do it again (not that you would, but that's the impression it gives).</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am proud my ancestors did what they did, and let's take a look at exactly what that was. Well my dad's side of the family is Russian Jewishm so they endured 5000 years of oppression to live in Russia, a land of rampant anti-semitism, where they were oppressed some more and finally came to America (well after the abolition slavery) where my great-grandfather managed to actually make something of himself and, thanks to him, today my family is actually quite well off.

My mom's side of the family is Scottish and not nobility or royalty, so they lived for hundreds of years under British oppression until they were finally able to throw it off and gain their independence.

Also on my mom's side of the family is some Cherokee. Since the Cherokee are "Native Americans" and not "white" they obviously have been oppressed and have every right to be proud.

Basically, my heritage is one oppression, and my ancestors had to fight for the freedom that I now enjoy. I'm proud of my Jewish heritage. I'm proud of my Russian heritage. I'm proud of my Scottish heritage. I'm proud of my Cherokee heritage. And why shouldn't I be?

And besides, who says I'm white? I identify myself more as Russian than any of the others. Are Russians "white"? Ask one, many would say that they're Asian, and racially I think slavic is a different from anglo-saxon as any other so-called race. They certainly aren't european (once you get out of Moscow...). Many consider Jewish to be a race, which would make it distinct from "white". The Cherokee certainly aren't "white". That leaves the Scottish, and I won't even try to say they're anything but "white". But even then, that's only about 1/4 or my heritage that is actually "white" or even european.

[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: nonhuman ]</p>

I understand the frustration of some of you, but you're going to have to deal with reality. We are all products of our history. And history means more than "during your lifetime."

For generations, every position of power in every institution in America was filled by WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, for those of you who don't know). Every single board room, school administration, city, county, state, and federal government position, ANYTHING which wielded any power at all, was an exclusive "Whites Only" club, celebrating "White Power". It has taken protests, martyrdom, legislation backed up by the National Guard, enormous social disruption, and much conscience-examination to change that over the last 50 years or so.

You (and I) and all other Whites enjoy much wealth and social position directly as a result of the oppression inflicted on others by your predecessors. The various ethnic and other minority groups you protest about have been told they were sub-human, powerless, and unwelcome for centuries. What harm is it to you if they want to join together and boost each others' self-esteem? The world is still a rather hostile place for them - still dominated by Whites, still starting out with two strikes against them. Things are much improved, but still a long way from parity.

And, like it or not, "White Pride" still smacks of the KKK. It is a slap in the face to everyone whose ancestors were abused and exploited by your ancestors. It's going to be another couple of generations before the poisons of the past have worked their way out of our society. Until then, you're just going to have to deal with it. Giving formerly oppressed minorities a small head-start is the least we owe them for what has happened in the past. I don't know when the playing field will be completely leveled - maybe never - but I sure know it's nowhere close yet.

Who said we have to use slogans like White Pride or White Power? What's wrong with European Culture [week] or something like that? The point we're making is, it would be a positive thing, not a competitive or slanderous thing. We can celebrate the colorful music and culture of Zaire, but not Austria? We can celebrate the accomplishments of Jesse Owens but not Eric Heiden? Desmond Tutu but not John Paul?

I think the real problem here is that we shouldn't just assign a month or a year for celebrating the accomplishments of those with African or Asian or Hispanic ancestry...we should do it all the time, on a one-off basis. MLK day is better than Black History Month, IOW. All of the great men and women and great cultural heritages we share should all be mixed together throughout the course of the year. There is no need to (nor a real benefit from) designating one 30 day period as the time when we should recognize a particular group. That just denegrates the whole point. It becomes a political statement more than a genuine reflection and celebration.

So no, we probably don't want a "white history month", but we don't need a "black history month" either. We need to break down all the people and things we're commemorating and simply give them their own day or week during the year. Oktoberfest, Zaire-fest, MLK day, Ghandi Day, George Carlin Day...you get the idea.



[ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>