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Visa, Apple aim to simplify transactions with wireless iPhone payments

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
This summer, Visa will make it possible for iPhone users to wave their device in front of a contactless payment terminal to make transactions, thanks to an Apple-certified hardware accessory.

The technology will be possible thanks to a protective iPhone case that will include a secure memory card that will hold Visa's contactless payment application, called Visa payWave. The application, which is compatible with the iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS, can be password protected and includes advanced security technology to uniquely identify each contactless transaction.

The press release from Visa and the maker of the hardware, DeviceFidelity, was temporarily visible earlier this week on the MarketWatch website, before it was pulled. It revealed that Visa will begin market trials of the iPhone hardware, which has allegedly been certified by Apple, this summer.

"iPhone users will be able to make Visa mobile payments in retail stores, at fast food restaurants, in taxis, during sporting events (such as at baseball games), and also make purchases at vending machines that have contactless payment terminals," the press release read. "Thousands of merchants throughout the U.S. have already upgraded their payment terminals to allow consumers to make Visa mobile payments."

The new feature will not be limited solely to the iPhone -- the memory card can also be placed in "a majority of smartphones" that have a slot for memory expansion. Users insert the card into the memory slot, which "transforms" the handset into a Visa payment device. Similar technology has already been rolled out in Malaysia and Japan.

Late last year, a report suggested that Apple was testing similar Near Field Communication Technology in the form of Radio-Frequency Identification, or RFID, in its next-generation iPhone prototypes. The feature could allow Apple's handsets to offer swipe payments at mobile terminals without the need for an external case or memory card provided by Visa.

Apple's interest in RFID tags first surface in 2007, when a patent application described technology that could allow the wireless protocol to simplify Wi-Fi networking. The application suggested an AirPort Extreme base station could hold an RFID transceiver containing all of a network's configuration information, including authentication and encryption keys.
post #2 of 43
Quote:
The new feature will not be limited solely to the iPhone -- the memory card can also be placed in "a majority of smartphones" that have a slot for memory expansion. Users insert the card into the memory slot, which "transforms" the handset into a Visa payment device. Similar technology has already been rolled out in Malaysia and Japan.

Does this mean that the next gen iPhone will have some sort of memory slot, or is Apple embedding something in the iPhone specifically for Visa?
post #3 of 43
oh ffs not AI as well - had the same article on TUAW, the comments ripped it to pieces due to the requirement for a case! THIS IS THE SAME THING AS GLUING A CARD TO YOUR FACE AND USING YOUR FACE.
post #4 of 43
Very unApplelike to need the case. I bet this is built into the 4G iPhone.
post #5 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iphtashu Fitz View Post

Does this mean that the next gen iPhone will have some sort of memory slot, or is Apple embedding something in the iPhone specifically for Visa?

No, most likely it would be an RFID chip for NFC contactless payment. You wave the phone over a sensor.

The Japanese have had this for about five years; they call it "Osaifu-keitai" (literally "wallet-phone"). They use it for transit passes, event tickets, airline tickets, debit, loyalty programs, etc.

The phone hardware isn't a big deal. It's working out the back-end and agreeing on a system for the payment. In Japan, the dominant mobile operator (NTT DoCoMo) basically rolled out their concept and said, "here you go."
post #6 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iphtashu Fitz View Post

Does this mean that the next gen iPhone will have some sort of memory slot, or is Apple embedding something in the iPhone specifically for Visa?

No memory card for sure. I wouldn't put it past Apple to embed something. Current iPhones will use a special case though, that may be how it works for the new iPhone as well.

Quote:
The technology will be possible thanks to a protective iPhone case that will include a secure memory card that will hold Visa's contactless payment application, called Visa payWave. The application, which is compatible with the iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS, can be password protected and includes advanced security technology to uniquely identify each contactless transaction.
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post #7 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iphtashu Fitz View Post

Does this mean that the next gen iPhone will have some sort of memory slot, or is Apple embedding something in the iPhone specifically for Visa?

No hope for memory card with Apple. I also do not believe that the new iPhone will have the tech embedded. If it is a success and we start to use our phones as Japanese do, than 2011/12 iPhone might have the thing inside. At least its my bet.
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post #8 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by akf2000 View Post

oh ffs not AI as well - had the same article on TUAW, the comments ripped it to pieces due to the requirement for a case! THIS IS THE SAME THING AS GLUING A CARD TO YOUR FACE AND USING YOUR FACE.

ffs of course it requires a case. or maybe it will be included in an upcoming iPhone, and maybe apple will start a service where you send in your old iPhone and they magically incorporate it into your iPhone and sent it back for free! its amazing how many people post to the internet without taking 5 sec to think.
post #9 of 43
What if I loan my iPhone? Apple are really locking people into their garden. Way way better to have an open system. a) Collect item(s) to purchase. b) Head to till. c) Biometric reading taken using local camera etc. d) After verification, payment made. No on person gadget required. With Apple's system, the only benefit is that the iPhone is used to verify the process, so it is assumed one's information is not held elsewhere? Too tired to go on, but me thinks Apple should stop the lockin model and instead create a more compelling solution, perhaps focus on the backend technology to ensure security for any networked biometrics. It is surprising how little Apple outsource their expertise to other companies.
post #10 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oflife View Post

What if I load my iPhone? Apple are really locking people into their garden. Way way better to have an open system. a) Collect item(s) to purchase. b) Head to till. c) Biometric reading taken using local camera etc. d) After verification, payment made. No on person gadget required. With Apple's system, the only benefit is that the iPhone is used to verify the process, so it is assumed one's information is not held elsewhere? Too tired to go on, but me thinks Apple should stop the lockin model and instead create a more compelling solution, perhaps focus on the backend technology to ensure security for any networked biometrics. It is surprising how little Apple outsource their expertise to other companies.

you're totally right, apple should not include any additional technology in their products because a better technology is going to come eventually.
post #11 of 43
If the next generation iPhone required a case for this, it will be a complete failure. If it is embedded, success is likely.
post #12 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

No, most likely it would be an RFID chip for NFC contactless payment. You wave the phone over a sensor.

The Japanese have had this for about five years; they call it "Osaifu-keitai" (literally "wallet-phone"). They use it for transit passes, event tickets, airline tickets, debit, loyalty programs, etc.

Because the Japanese don't mind having every aspect of their lives tracked and monitored.

It seems there are many people here in the US that still don't "get" why that's not a good thing, but at least some moves are getting people to rethink whether this stuff is a good idea. Northern Arizona University is installing an RFID-based tracking system to monitor their students "to check class attendance". Does anyone think this is really necessary? And does anyone think it will stop with "class attendance"? Please don't tell me people are this naive!

Full story: http://badgerherald.com/news/2010/05...ge_to_posi.php


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

No memory card for sure. I wouldn't put it past Apple to embed something.

Any iGadget with this stuff embedded (without a way to permanently disable it), will be on my Do Not Buy list forever.

Please guys, consider how this is a slow step-by-step toward an Orwellian world. Just like the lobster that you drop into a pot of water and slowly turn it up until it's cooked. The lobster doesn't even realize what's happening until it's too late. Most people don't even notice or care right now, but we're not that far from a tipping point of not being able to live without having your whereabouts, spending habits and just about everything else tracked and monitored - in real time. A lot of this is, of course, already happening.

Yes, there's GPS on your iPhone, but (as far as we know) you can (mostly) disable it.
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post #13 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Any iGadget with this stuff embedded (without a way to permanently disable it), will be on my Do Not Buy list forever.

Please guys, consider how this is a slow step-by-step toward an Orwellian world. Just like the lobster that you drop into a pot of water and slowly turn it up until it's cooked. The lobster doesn't even realize what's happening until it's too late. Most people don't even notice or care right now, but we're not that far from a tipping point of not being able to live without having your whereabouts, spending habits and just about everything else tracked and monitored - in real time. A lot of this is, of course, already happening.

Yes, there's GPS on your iPhone, but (as far as we know) you can (mostly) disable it.

So what you are saying is that with this technology they can track your whereabouts whenever you make a transaction, just like they already can with a credit card? Obviously there would also be a way to turn it off as well.
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post #14 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmawm View Post

If the next generation iPhone required a case for this, it will be a complete failure. If it is embedded, success is likely.

I actually think the thing required for success is standardization at the cash register. I've got the Mastercard version of this built into my debit card, and where you see their contactless pads it words great, but where you see the Visa ones it doesn't work at all (obviously).

For something like this to work, the credit card companies (and banks) need to come together to define a standard that they will all work to.
post #15 of 43
Its going to be pretty handy when this is in place. I wouldn't use a case for it, but having it somehow inside the phone will be nice, because I'm sick of having carrying $10 of coins to ride the train which won't take notes and cards.

The sooner they do this the better.
post #16 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Because the Japanese don't mind having every aspect of their lives tracked and monitored.

It seems there are many people here in the US that still don't "get" why that's not a good thing, but at least some moves are getting people to rethink whether this stuff is a good idea. Northern Arizona University is installing an RFID-based tracking system to monitor their students "to check class attendance". Does anyone think this is really necessary? And does anyone think it will stop with "class attendance"? Please don't tell me people are this naive!

Full story: http://badgerherald.com/news/2010/05...ge_to_posi.php




Any iGadget with this stuff embedded (without a way to permanently disable it), will be on my Do Not Buy list forever.

Please guys, consider how this is a slow step-by-step toward an Orwellian world. Just like the lobster that you drop into a pot of water and slowly turn it up until it's cooked. The lobster doesn't even realize what's happening until it's too late. Most people don't even notice or care right now, but we're not that far from a tipping point of not being able to live without having your whereabouts, spending habits and just about everything else tracked and monitored - in real time. A lot of this is, of course, already happening.

Yes, there's GPS on your iPhone, but (as far as we know) you can (mostly) disable it.

I think it has its pros and cons. It shouldn't be the only form of payment though I suspect that eventually it will be. My main concern is who has access to my information. Your example case of NAU is way out of bounds. Unfortunately, between Facebook and Google, many if not most have already given up their privacy. That Orwellian may already exist. We still don't really know the extent to which iAds will eventually go in analyzing user data. The US gov't already has access to all your telephone calls and purchases.
post #17 of 43
Yea, this is going to be hot. Good job Apple for not adorning iPhones with expansion slots.

post #18 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by macinthe408 View Post

Yea, this is going to be hot. Good job Apple for not adorning iPhones with expansion slots.


Super hot. I'm going straight to the Apple store to get one!
post #19 of 43
As long as they're modifying the point of sale terminals, why not make them accept a thumbprint + PIN, and do away with cards/phones altogether.
post #20 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

This summer, Visa will make it possible for iPhone users to wave their device in front of a contactless payment terminal to make transactions, thanks to an Apple-certified hardware accessory.

I showed this article to my wife as I do everything that just helps justify even more my having an iPhone, and hopefully getting the iPad as soon at it becomes available in Canada.

Without a blink of an eye, she said, "Amazing. But if you give me your VISA card, I can tell you how you can get your 'new' iPad even faster."

Now that was an offer I just couldn't refuse. And quickly as I handed her my card, she took a pair of scissors, cut it in two and said, "Don't use it."
post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by macinthe408 View Post

Yea, this is going to be hot. Good job Apple for not adorning iPhones with expansion slots.


Quote:
Originally Posted by benice View Post

Super hot. I'm going straight to the Apple store to get one!


Super-duper hot!! I'm already at the Apple store for this!!

post #22 of 43
Whilst all these changes at the point of sale are interesting and do no doubt improve security, I think the card companies need to figure out a way to improve on-line security.

I know a bunch of people who are members of a club which has seen a bunch of break-in's to cars, with apparently nothing taken. Turns out what the theves were doing was writing down all the credit card numbers etc. that they could find in the car (it's amazing how many people seem to leave wallets, purses etc in their cars when they go to play golf), then using them to buy things (not sure exactly how they completed the action, since I thought most websites check the registered credit card address against the card number, but maybe not).

I think we need to start seeing "card readers" built into computers, so when you buy something on the internet, there is similar verification to these new RFID systems in shops. Surely it must be possible to tap your credit card (or phone, or whatever) against a reader on a computer that you are using to order something on-line and have some sort of secure verification done?
post #23 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"iPhone users will be able to make Visa mobile payments in retail stores, at fast food restaurants, in taxis, during sporting events (such as at baseball games),

Heh, who wrote that press release? Do we really need to know that a "baseball game" is an example of a sporting event? Ha!
post #24 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

So what you are saying is that with this technology they can track your whereabouts whenever you make a transaction, just like they can with a credit card? Obviously there would also be a way to turn it off as well.

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post #25 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Please guys, consider how this is a slow step-by-step toward an Orwellian world. Just like the lobster that you drop into a pot of water and slowly turn it up until it's cooked. The lobster doesn't even realize what's happening until it's too late.

I LOVE screwed-up metaphors!
post #26 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by bspears View Post

Very unApplelike to need the case. I bet this is built into the 4G iPhone.

Something like the Starbucks app -- which pops up a bar code on the display that the retailer can scan -- makes a lot more sense.
post #27 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

Whilst all these changes at the point of sale are interesting and do no doubt improve security, I think the card companies need to figure out a way to improve on-line security.

after having someone use my card for unauthorized online purchases, i contacted visa and MC about better security - now, UNLESS the shipping address is my home or work address, any card purchase requiring shipment [online, over the phone, whatever] must be verified by calling me before it will be approved. also, when i travel overseas i call them to tell them where i will be and ask to allow card purchases there, otherwise they will be declined. you would be amazed how much customer service can do for you if you just ask nicely.

as for this iPhone as a credit card thing, why not just put a Visa RFID in a sticker and put it on the back of [or inside the battery cover of] any model phone from any carrier, a la mobil speedpass?
post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

I LOVE screwed-up metaphors!

FYI, that's an excellent metaphor of long standing for "incremental, undesirable change which allows its victims to acclimate so that, moment to moment, the remain unaware that things are getting steadily worse."
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post #29 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Because the Japanese don't mind having every aspect of their lives tracked and monitored.

It's opt in. If you don't want to use it, you don't.

Not a big deal.

Besides, if you're already using a credit or debit card, your financial institution knows where you've been regardless if you're using a NFC contactless payment system or sliding your card into a POS terminal/punching in a PIN to authorize a transaction.
post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

FYI, that's an excellent metaphor of long standing for "incremental, undesirable change which allows its victims to acclimate so that, moment to moment, the remain unaware that things are getting steadily worse."

It would have been, had the animal been a frog instead of a lobster, and the instrument been a pan instead of a pot. Close, but no cigar.

That's why I love it so much
post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post


Yes, there's GPS on your iPhone, but (as far as we know) you can (mostly) disable it.

um, GPS can't be used to track you. It's just a receiver. Location services can be (and they're watching you right now!!!)
post #32 of 43
I remember back in the day packing car batteries so we could run our card terminals at remote fairs and art shows. This is a huge improvement! Now everyone can take credit cards and sell just about anything, 24 hours a day.

Imagine the growth in our economy. The IRS will demand info from the clearinghouses. States will demand info sharing as well so they can determine exactly which purchases were made in-state and are thus taxable. Then they can alert you on your iPad and you can pay the tax with a credit card.

See, it comes full circle.

Seriously though, privacy has been withering away since the interent, with most of us willingly trading a little privacy for convenience.

On another note, this will allow banks to rip off a broad swath of participants. When I used to track my fees, the banks always stole a penny here, a penny there. It adds up. I eventually accepted it because it took too long to call and fix it.
post #33 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwfrederick View Post

ffs of course it requires a case. or maybe it will be included in an upcoming iPhone, and maybe apple will start a service where you send in your old iPhone and they magically incorporate it into your iPhone and sent it back for free! its amazing how many people post to the internet without taking 5 sec to think.

I'm thinking it either has to have a system built-in or forget it. Then that tag can be set and activated if the user so chooses, or left inactive.

Near field RFID can just be a sticker or even a business card. I think I still have some from when I was playing with the electronics. They are often key fobs. The system is set up such that the transmission power is so weak that it can't be detected well beyond a few centimeters. Making something sensitive enough to reach a larger distance is usually going to look pretty awkward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Because the Japanese don't mind having every aspect of their lives tracked and monitored.

Use cash.
post #34 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

I LOVE screwed-up metaphors!

I LOVE people making silly comments with nothing to back themselves up! ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

FYI, that's an excellent metaphor of long standing for "incremental, undesirable change which allows its victims to acclimate so that, moment to moment, the remain unaware that things are getting steadily worse."

Thank you addabox. It's a metaphor that's been around for at least 30 years that I know of personally, so probably much longer than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

It would have been, had the animal been a frog instead of a lobster, and the instrument been a pan instead of a pot. Close, but no cigar.

That's why I love it so much

Sorry, but you can't claim that your metaphor is the "real" one. Personally, I've never heard of the frog metaphor, although it seems like basically the same thing. But apparently, at least with frogs, it's a false metaphor, see: http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/758865.html

However, the theory holds true for human behavior. addabox summarized it perfectly. People are giving up their basic privacy, i.e. freedom from being tracked and monitored - for the most part freely of their own will under the guise of convenience and entertainment. It's really sad.
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post #35 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Sorry, but you can't claim that your metaphor is the "real" one. Personally, I've never heard of the frog metaphor, although it seems like basically the same thing. But apparently, at least with frogs, it's a false metaphor, see: http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/758865.html

Sorry, but it is. Frog in a hot pan. I'm not saying you're an idiot because you didn't know it, I just found it funny. The saying you used is clearly wrong though.

http://www.google.com/search?q=popul...ient=firefox-a

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...=&oq=&gs_rfai=

I'm also sure that once addabox thinks about it for a second, he'll realize his mistake. Just because someone used the wrong metaphor in your presence 30 years ago does not mean that the saying you used has "been around" for 30 years
post #36 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I'm thinking it either has to have a system built-in or forget it. Then that tag can be set and activated if the user so chooses, or left inactive.

Near field RFID can just be a sticker or even a business card. I think I still have some from when I was playing with the electronics. They are often key fobs. The system is set up such that the transmission power is so weak that it can't be detected well beyond a few centimeters. Making something sensitive enough to reach a larger distance is usually going to look pretty awkward.

yeah, to be truly successful it will need to be incorporated into upcoming devices. but, old hardware will need a case, and bc rfid tags are so small it could be incorporated in even the thinnest cases. what would be interesting is if, as you suggested, they are able to allow the user to disable it and/or require it to querry the corresponding device with a password request. i'm looking forward to seeing what happens.
post #37 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

The saying you used is clearly wrong though.
....
I'm also sure that once addabox thinks about it for a second, he'll realize his mistake. Just because someone used the wrong metaphor in your presence 30 years ago does not mean that the saying you used has "been around" for 30 years

Look, the overall topic is not that important, but your attitude is, which is why I bothered to write back. When you say "The saying you used is clearly wrong" you're full of crap. I've heard this metaphor used MANY times by MANY people over at least the past 30 years, probably closer to 40. Maybe the frog saying has been around longer, maybe not, but who cares? Perhaps where you live the frog saying is prevalent, and where I live it's lobsters. Ever think of that?

Note that I'm not, and never have, said you're wrong. But you are trying to say I am, which is just not true.
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post #38 of 43
Back to more important topics!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

It's opt in. If you don't want to use it, you don't.

Not a big deal.

Do you honestly think that it will always be opt in? Certain things are already very difficult to purchase with cash and that trajectory will likely continue unless there is a big consumer rebellion for some reason. The hope is that consumers start to look at the immense amounts of personal data stores and the types of potential abuse they allow, and start pushing back before it's too late (if it isn't already).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

Besides, if you're already using a credit or debit card, your financial institution knows where you've been regardless if you're using a NFC contactless payment system or sliding your card into a POS terminal/punching in a PIN to authorize a transaction.

Don't assume everyone uses credit or debit cards! I don't except in very, very rare situations where it's just not possible to do otherwise. But RFID is far less secure than magnetic strips - see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robogobo View Post

um, GPS can't be used to track you. It's just a receiver. Location services can be (and they're watching you right now!!!)

Sorry, my bad, I meant LBS (location-based services), although they can often be related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw View Post

Seriously though, privacy has been withering away since the interent, with most of us willingly trading a little privacy for convenience.

Let me make a tiny flip-change to fix the last part of that quote for you.

(sadly,) most of us willingly trading our privacy for a little convenience.

Are those 10-15 seconds saved here and there really worth allowing yourself to have all of your purchases tracked, monitored and profiled? In many ways this data can be used to predict your future behavior better than you can predict yourself, because you don't think about it, you just do it. This is scary shit, and while the Feds at least have some valid reasons for wanting to know about individuals' behavior, Google and Facebook and their ilk really need to be seriously regulated. They're not going to do it themselves. And I'm generally NOT a proponent of big government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Near field RFID can just be a sticker or even a business card. I think I still have some from when I was playing with the electronics. They are often key fobs. The system is set up such that the transmission power is so weak that it can't be detected well beyond a few centimeters. Making something sensitive enough to reach a larger distance is usually going to look pretty awkward.

Did you not see the experiment where people were sniffing out data from many feet away? There are many, many places that large-ish devices can be hidden, so size is not an issue. It's unlikely to happen in a gov't monitored location, like an airport, but in the other 99% of the world, not a problem. Can't find the link I'm thinking of right now, but here's one from Mythbusters regarding RFID security. I suspect he got in trouble for talking about this. It's really good, only 2 minutes - watch it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X034R3yzDhw

And here's Chris Paget driving around with a home brew box picking up people's passport data. For real. (It's a little slow-moving, you can get the idea by watching about 1/2 of it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9isKnDiJNPk

One last interesting bit to consider. I have no idea who these guys are or how reputable they are, but the topic is worthy. If your passport or ANY OTHER RFID-EMBEDDED ITEM (like a credit card) can be sniffed out from a distance (and it can), then you are not safe traveling in many parts of the world. Especially for U.S. citizens, but others as well.

You can ask your bank to issue you a non-RFID credit/debit card, and they will do so for no charge. Tell everyone you know! If enough people do this, maybe they'll stop issuing these security nightmares by default!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XXaqraF7pI


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Use cash.

Yup. We all should do a lot more of that! :-)

Oh, and don't use the #$!@# "loyalty cards"! Or if you absolutely must, don't EVER use any real-world information to get one. Even better, unless the cashiers know you well, ask for a new card every few times you shop. Most places won't even make you fill out the info, just tell them you'll bring it back next time.
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post #39 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Perhaps where you live the frog saying is prevalent, and where I live it's lobsters. Ever think of that?

Considered that. Quickly realized I was wasting my time. Some things are right, some are wrong. You're wrong, and anyone who has ever told you that incorrect metaphor is as well. The fact that Google has never heard of it should give you a hint Go ahead, find me one other written example of that metaphor ANYWHERE online. I've already posted you the google results, which should make it clear enough. If you know lots of people who have used that metaphor, well, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that they don't know how to use a computer either

On another note, I'm totally up for anything that will let me carry less crap around with me. I tried some stupid iPhone app that supposedly let your phone take the place of all those loyalty keyring things, but it never worked in the least. Removed it after it failed at Harris Teeter, CVS and Giant. Lame!

So, let me see that example of your terrible metaphor It's funny, it's always those who can't defend their logic who tell the other "I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't like how you're saying I am." Hilarious!
post #40 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Considered that. Quickly realized I was wasting my time. Some things are right, some are wrong. You're wrong, and anyone who has ever told you that incorrect metaphor is as well. The fact that Google has never heard of it should give you a hint Go ahead, find me one other written example of that metaphor ANYWHERE online. I've already posted you the google results, which should make it clear enough. If you know lots of people who have used that metaphor, well, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that they don't know how to use a computer either

So, let me see that example of your terrible metaphor It's funny, it's always those who can't defend their logic who tell the other "I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't like how you're saying I am." Hilarious!

Sure, that was easy, one quick google search did the trick: (lobster boil metaphor; nothing tricky).
http://www.google.com/search?q=lobst...&start=10&sa=N

Pick one that suits you. The first hit works, but it's rather weak.
The 5th hit is better, it actually quotes two other sources:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll...#comment-44324

So according to your logic, this means that you must not know how to use a computer! But seriously, are your search skills so poor that you made one lame pass, didn't find what you were looking for and started calling me names? Not only will you will not win many battles that way, you end up looking like a fool.

I have no doubt after the little searching I did that the frog metaphor is more common. But as I mentioned before, I never said it was bad, wrong or in dispute. However, you are absolutely, unequivocally, undeniably, 100% WRONG that the lobster metaphor does not exist. The "proof" you requested is right there in Google.

Here, let me repeat all the relevant parts of your post so you can take note of all the ways you are wrong. FWIW, I would not have done this (or even bothered respond at all) if you hadn't been so antagonizingly disrespectful.
1) "You're wrong, and anyone who has ever told you that incorrect metaphor is as well." (by your own requested form of proof, I'm not wrong).
2) "Google has never heard of it" (wrong)
3) "Go ahead, find me one other written example of that metaphor ANYWHERE online." (done)
4) Here's the funniest one: "I've already posted you the google results". Like there is one, single master Google search for any particular search topic! Hahahaha, that's so rich! That's what blows me away more than anything else - that anyone with any internet skills whatsoever would make a comment like that.
5) "they don't know how to use a computer either". As demonstrated, anyone who claims a single Google search is definitive on a topic, well, I'll stop repeating myself, but it might be time to find a mirror.
6) "those who can't defend their logic..." Defended just fine.
No Matte == No Sale :-(
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No Matte == No Sale :-(
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