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post #41 of 50
I was forced to bail out the banks to the tune of $3 trillion so far, and if I don't pay my taxes I go to jail. Read my post and respond to it point by point, just saying I am wrong without some kind of good argument is worthless.

Every American taxpayer was forced to pay money to the banks, to fix the mess that they caused. The banks were most of the problem, because the government relaxed regulation starting under Regan. It is no coincidence that we had no banking problems at all for 50 years, and then started having them every 10 years after Regan was in power.
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post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

You don't have the freedom to murder people, for good reason. Free speech is limited in that you are not allowed to paint slogans on private property, etc.

I'm quite sorry to hear that you come to equate those things with lassez faire capitalism. This suggests an error in your understanding of that idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Why should the banks be allowed to destroy the world?

Of course they should not. Of course it is also a non sequitar that a deregulated banking environment would lead to this outcome.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The whole idea of freedom is that you are allowed to do whatever you like as long as you don't hurt other people or infringe on the freedom of others, the banks are way past that point. They need to be stopped from hurting people and infringing on the freedom of others.

I agree. But it is unfortunate that you seem to be of the belief that somehow, some way the banks are, in any way, shape or form free market entities. This again suggests an error in your understanding of that idea.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #43 of 50
I demonstrated quite clearly how deregulation lead to this situation in my previous post.
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post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I was forced to bail out the banks to the tune of $3 trillion so far, and if I don't pay my taxes I go to jail.

Every American taxpayer was forced to pay money to the banks, to fix the mess that they caused.

And you some how consider this to be lassez faire capitalism? Under lassez faire capitalism these banks would have been allowed to failed because of their incompetence, ethics and/or excessive risk taking gone bad.

The banking system in the U.S. is in no way, shape or form lassez faire capitalism. Not even close. Quite the opposite in fact. It is an example of corporate socialism or crony-capitalism or economic fascism. Pick the label you want, but it is not and has not been lassez faire capitalism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Read my post and respond to it point by point, just saying I am wrong without some kind of good argument is worthless.

As I said, I will have to defer to your high expertise and extensive knowledge of the banking and insurance industries.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #45 of 50
Deregulation lets banks become very large, so that they HAVE to be bailed out by taxpayers. Unregulated CDSes tie together all the banks into a big mesh network that fails as a single unit.

It was a problem of deregulation, bank freedom = bank failure, unemployment and eventually sovereign defaults. All of our money market funds would have been destroyed as they invested in bank debt, it would have been a horrible global depression that could have been averted with better regulation. It probably will still be a horrible global depression anyway.

If we had kept our post-depression bank laws intact, supplemented with new laws that regulated new products, we would be fine now.
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post #46 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Deregulation lets banks become very large

Really? Please explain the theory that support this claim.



Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

so that they HAVE to be bailed out by taxpayers.

Well, they don't have to be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

It was a problem of deregulation, bank freedom = bank failure, unemployment and eventually sovereign defaults. All of our money market funds would have been destroyed as they invested in bank debt, it would have been a horrible global depression that could have been averted with better regulation. It probably will still be a horrible global depression anyway.

You're conflating quite a number of things into a single theory of bank regulation vs. bank deregulation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If we had kept our post-depression bank laws intact, supplemented with new laws that regulated new products, we would be fine now.

Perhaps.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I was forced to bail out the banks to the tune of $3 trillion so far, and if I don't pay my taxes I go to jail. Read my post and respond to it point by point, just saying I am wrong without some kind of good argument is worthless.

Every American taxpayer was forced to pay money to the banks, to fix the mess that they caused. The banks were most of the problem, because the government relaxed regulation starting under Regan. It is no coincidence that we had no banking problems at all for 50 years, and then started having them every 10 years after Regan was in power.

Who exactly forced taxpayers to bail out the banks? Me? You? Nope, Washington in the persona of Bush, then Obama responding to special interest group pressures.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #48 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And you some how consider this to be lassez faire capitalism? Under lassez faire capitalism these banks would have been allowed to failed because of their incompetence, ethics and/or excessive risk taking gone bad.

The banking system in the U.S. is in no way, shape or form lassez faire capitalism. Not even close. Quite the opposite in fact. It is an example of corporate socialism or crony-capitalism or economic fascism. Pick the label you want, but it is not and has not been lassez faire capitalism.

I've not once come across a person willing to concede this point. The very idea that laissez-faire capitalism is the opposite of what we suffer under today is incomprehensible to them. They simply don't like "it", whatever "it" is.

Perhaps if economic lessons were framed in easy to understand examples built around "Dancing with the Stars" or "American Idol" people would gain more understanding.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #49 of 50
e1618978 , this made me think of part of our exchange in this thread:

Quote:
Paul Krugman blames the BP oil spill on interest groups and an antigovernment ideology that combined together to thwart governments ability to perform effectively (Sex & Drugs & the Spill, May 10).

Lets grant, for arguments sake, that under ideal circumstances all of the many tasks that Mr. Krugman wants government to do can be better performed by government than by the private sector. It nevertheless doesnt follow that these tasks should be assigned to government in the real world

In the real world government is unavoidably influenced by interest groups and ideologies influences that, as Mr. Krugman himself complains, often create problems by preventing government from acting as it would if it were immune to politics and ideology.

Imagining all the great wonders that expansive government could perform in a make-believe world in which government is immune to interest groups and ideologies, Mr. Krugman supports expansive government. But then hes surprised and bitter when the influences of interest groups and ideologies cause that government, in reality, to fail. His attitude is like that of an architect who imagines all the wonderful skyscrapers that could be built if skyscrapers were exempt from the law of gravity, but then complains bitterly when skyscrapers that are built as if they were exempt from the law of gravity crumble and crash down to earth in the real world.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #50 of 50
Stocks plummet on economic worries:

Quote:
The Dow Jones industrials plunged below 10,000 Tuesday as traders turned away from stocks amid worries about the global economy and tensions between North and South Korea.

Quote:
A disappointing report on U.S. home prices added to the market's dark mood. The Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller 20-city home price index fell 0.5 percent in March from February, a sign that the housing market remains weak even as mortgage rates are near historic lows. There are concerns that last month's expiration of the government's home buyer tax credit will hurt sales in the coming months.

This last point is particularly interesting because it is nearly an exact duplication of what happened with the "Cash for Clunkers" program and it demonstrates either this administration's complete ignorance of economic principles at play here or simply their wishful thinking that their best intentions can trump reality. \


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A better-than-expected report on consumer confidence had no lasting effect on trading. The Conference Board's consumer confidence index rose for the third straight month, climbing to 63.3 in May from 57.7 last month.


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Investors are not focusing as much on current signs of growth, but instead trying to gauge where the global economy will be later this year. Pessimism, particularly about Europe, has replaced the hopeful tone the market took early in the year.


Quote:
European Union leaders warned Tuesday that the continent's economy would stagnate unless governments make major reforms to promote growth. The problem is, though, that large debts in some countries make it difficult to implement stimulus measures to rally economies.

Oh, so maybe you can't borrow your way to prosperity and you can't borrow your way out of problems that were created (at least in part) by borrowing.


Quote:
Traders have been heavily selling the euro in recent weeks because of uneasiness over whether steep budget cuts in countries like Greece, Spain and Portugal will drag down an economic recovery on the continent. Italy was set to become the latest European nation to announce spending cuts to reduce its deficit.

This item and the one about the mortgages above (along with specific examples like cash for clunkers on a smaller scale) provide examples of exactly how government intervention ultimately distorts the economy and exacerbates the business cycle making it more like a roller coaster.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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