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Nokia sues Apple over alleged patent infringements in iPad 3G, iPhone

post #1 of 69
Thread Starter 
Nokia announced Friday that it had filed yet another lawsuit against Apple, this time time alleging that both the iPhone and iPad 3G infringe on five patents owned by the Finnish phone maker.

According to Nokia, the patents involved in the suit, filed in the Federal District Court in the Western District of Wisconsin, are related to enhanced speech and data transmission. The technology uses positioning data in applications and new antenna configurations to improve performance and save space within the hardware, allowing for smaller devices.

"Nokia has been the leading developer of many key technologies in mobile devices" said Paul Melin, General Manager, Patent Licensing at Nokia. "We have taken this step to protect the results of our pioneering development and to put an end to continued unlawful use of Nokia's innovation."

Nokia noted that it has invested about 40 billion euros in research and development in the last two decades. It said it has one of the industry's "strongest and broadest" patent portfolios, with more than 11,000 patent families.

Friday's announcement is the fourth complaint Nokia has lodged against Apple dating back to late 2009. Nokia first sued Apple last October, accusing the iPhone maker of infringing on patented wireless standards related to GSM and wireless LAN. Then in December, it filed a complaint with the U.S. International Trade Commission, claiming that Apple has been infringing on patents with the iPhone, its line of iPads, and MacBooks.

In January, a third lawsuit alleged that Apple infringed on several "implementation patents." Filed in a federal court in Delaware, it addressed the same products cited in the ITC suit.

For its part, Apple filed a countersuit against Nokia last December, accusing the Finnish company of infringing on its own list of patents.

In January, Nokia's ITC complaint was accepted for investigation, considered a formality with such a high-profile case. The ITC also agreed to investigate Apple over Nokia's claims.

Analyst Gene Munster with Piper Jaffray has said he believes Nokia seeks a 1 percent to 2 percent royalty on every iPhone sold. That would amount to about $6 to $12 per handset in compensation for intellectual properties related go GSM, 3G and Wi-Fi.
post #2 of 69
So the CEO, under extreme pressure from shareholders to step down, gets a vote of confidence by the BOD and this is a part of his plan to bring Nokia back to prominence? I understand that these types of lawsuits are but one aspect of a strategy and that anything that can potentially slow Apple down is good for Nokia, but this seems to be indicative of the rather sad state of affairs in their leadership. If you can't beat'em on the playground, tell the teacher that they're cheating and hope the teacher helps you in some way.

If I were a Nokia shareholder, I'd be selling right about now.
post #3 of 69
If you can't beat 'em, sue 'em.
post #4 of 69
This story just about explains the utter inability of this once-great company to compete against Apple: http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-update2-.html

It's no wonder they have to resort to such tactics.
post #5 of 69
nice to have some double standards here. Hey, Apple how is that lawsuit towards HTC doing ?
post #6 of 69
Apple isn't licensing that tech from Nokia even though everybody else in the industry is. These aren't software patents but patents on real physical technology.

On the other hand, Nokia has refused to license the tech to apple on the same reasonable, non-discriminatory terms as everybody else. They want access to some of Apple's valuable patents, one that Apple really doesn't want to license.

This is the issue. Hopefully the courts and the ITC will be smart enough to figure it out.
post #7 of 69
I just wonder if Edison, et al, has sued the makers of those inventors/companies that have improved the light bulb.... Nokia is struggling to survive.
post #8 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Dawkins View Post

nice to have some double standards here. Hey, Apple how is that lawsuit towards HTC doing ?

You need to inform yourself a bit more. See #6 above.
post #9 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Dawkins View Post

nice to have some double standards here. Hey, Apple how is that lawsuit towards HTC doing ?

What are you talking about?
Nokia thinks a company has violated their patents, and is suing them.
Apple thinks a company has violated their patents, and is suing them.

Looks like a single standard to me.
Please explain?
post #10 of 69
Anybody seen the actual complaint? Must be some way to get the court filing papers.

Katie Marsal can you get the text of complaint?
post #11 of 69
innovate. innovate. innovate.
post #12 of 69
Why is this even news? Being that the iPad 3G was recently released it is only natural that Nokia include the iPad. My God, it is not that hard to figure out.
post #13 of 69
Stop all the crap about suing! Nokia, for that matter some others too, look at your own creation is it up to usable, reliable and loved by your users. If not you lost the creditability. So what good if you have chest load of patents and they aren't put to good use. Go back to your labs and come clean with a game changer to better iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad, then you talk about your patents.
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post #14 of 69
Terrible company is terrible company, if you can't innovate and stay relevant, you break out the attorneys and start meaningless lawsuits. What horrible leadership Nokia has, no wonder they're a dying company that will soon be relegated to bargain basement hardware/services.
post #15 of 69
Hah! Nokia's got Apple now! Ordinarily Apple would counter sue and the two parties would settle, but Nokia has done diddly-squat for years now--nothing to be sued for. This should be very profitable... for the attorneys.
/sarcasm
post #16 of 69
If their patent chest is so broad in scope, why are their products so horrible? why aren't they making game changing products like Apple?
post #17 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

What are you talking about?
Nokia thinks a company has violated their patents, and is suing them.
Apple thinks a company has violated their patents, and is suing them.

Looks like a single standard to me.
Please explain?

What you're ignoring - even though it has been pointed out to you - is that Nokia is part of a consortium which requires reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing of their patents. They are asking Apple to pay a much higher fee than they charge anyone else - which is a violation of that agreement. Furthermore, they are insisting that Apple license some non-related patents - even though Apple has never agreed to reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing.

In effect, by participating in the consortium, Nokia no longer has the right to demand what they're asking.

Apple never licensed their iPhone technology to anyone and allege that HTC stole it. Apple certainly has the right to try to prove that.
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post #18 of 69
Everyone who builds a cell phone almost certainly needs to license patents that Nokia owns.

Apple just doesn't want to pay what Nokia is asking. They tried to intimidate Nokia with a countersuit based on Nokia's use of patents that Apple owns, but in the long term I expect that Apple won't be able to sell _any_ phones if they don't license Nokia's technology. Nokia may not be able to sell phones with multi-touch, but they might not care.

At this point they're just going to find out if the various patents in question are valid, they've probably not been litigated before. Once that's done, they'll revisit licensing---a discussion they're probably continuing regardless of the lawsuits.
post #19 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

What you're ignoring - even though it has been pointed out to you - is that Nokia is part of a consortium which requires reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing of their patents. They are asking Apple to pay a much higher fee than they charge anyone else - which is a violation of that agreement. Furthermore, they are insisting that Apple license some non-related patents - even though Apple has never agreed to reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing.

And you are ignoring that that is what Apple says (in their countercomplaint to be exact). So far without a shed of proof. Kind of "he said, she said". And you believe them? And not the other company in question? Fanboyism is fine but believing what any company says blindly is kind of silly.

F/RAND also means two different things in GSM/3G licensing in N.America/Europe than what it means in Asia. Could it be that Nokia wants NAM/Europe prices (like every NAM/European company pays) and Apple wants Asian prices? That would easily explain the conflicting statements. They would both be correct in a sense.

We'll only know if this a) ever goes to court b) isn't settled outside of court and c) documents are made public.

Regs, Jarkko
post #20 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jukes View Post

Everyone who builds a cell phone almost certainly needs to license patents that Nokia owns.

Apple just doesn't want to pay what Nokia is asking.

How many times do you need to be told?

Nokia is required to charge everyone the same license fees but they want MORE from Apple. Apple agreed to pay what Nokia charges everyone else and Nokia refused.
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post #21 of 69
Humm, guess you need to do your homework also before giving those remarks! US loves patents, as so they have to respect them!
post #22 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

And you are ignoring that that is what Apple says (in their countercomplaint to be exact). So far without a shed of proof. Kind of "he said, she said". And you believe them? And not the other company in question? Fanboyism is fine but believing what any company says blindly is kind of silly.

F/RAND also means two different things in GSM/3G licensing in N.America/Europe than what it means in Asia. Could it be that Nokia wants NAM/Europe prices (like every NAM/European company pays) and Apple wants Asian prices? That would easily explain the conflicting statements. They would both be correct in a sense.

We'll only know if this a) ever goes to court b) isn't settled outside of court and c) documents are made public.

Regs, Jarkko

Moro, moro Jarkko.

BPE = Best post ever. You nailed it. Next time you are in Helsinki flag me and I will by you a beer.
post #23 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Nokia is required to charge everyone the same license fees but they want MORE from Apple. Apple agreed to pay what Nokia charges everyone else and Nokia refused.

Said who exactly?

Regs, Jarkko
post #24 of 69
It's good to see Apple getting some of their own medicine after the crap they started with HTC/Google. The only downside about all this is these stupid lawsuits cost money, which will drive up the cost for both Apple and Nokia products in the long run.
post #25 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Nokia is required to charge everyone the same license fees but they want MORE from Apple. Apple agreed to pay what Nokia charges everyone else and Nokia refused.

Has this been proved? I know that this has been Apple's defence but has it been verified by an independent 3rd party?

I'm guessing we won't know the truth until the court case.
post #26 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

And you are ignoring that that is what Apple says (in their countercomplaint to be exact). So far without a shed of proof. Kind of "he said, she said". And you believe them? And not the other company in question? Fanboyism is fine but believing what any company says blindly is kind of silly.

F/RAND also means two different things in GSM/3G licensing in N.America/Europe than what it means in Asia. Could it be that Nokia wants NAM/Europe prices (like every NAM/European company pays) and Apple wants Asian prices? That would easily explain the conflicting statements. They would both be correct in a sense.

We'll only know if this a) ever goes to court b) isn't settled outside of court and c) documents are made public.

Regs, Jarkko

Maybe you could read and try to understand the public documents. It is illegal for a company to flat-out lie in a public document, so they tend not to do that. Instead, they spread FUD and make misleading statements. You need to be able to read for comprehension - and look for very clear statements - which apparently a lot of people are unable to do.

Apple specifically stated that they offered to pay Nokia the same fees that Nokia was charging everyone else. There's very little room for interpretation there. Apple either DID offer to pay the reasonable and non-discriminatory terms or they didn't. If they didn't, it's a flat out lie which gets them in trouble with the SEC and shareholders. Thus, it's likely that they're telling the truth.

Nokia has never stated otherwise. You will not find a single Nokia statement saying that Apple refused to pay the same licensing fees as the rest of the industry. Instead, Nokia's public statements have been that Apple has not licensed the technologies - which is NOT inconsistent with Apple's statement. If Nokia were asking for $10,000 per phone and Apple refused to pay it, then Nokia's statement would still be true.

So, the ONLY scenario which would support the view that BOTH companies are telling the truth is the one I stated - that Apple offered reasonable and non-discriminatory payments and Nokia wanted more than that. (In fact, I think Apple specifically stated that this is true).

Now, if you have evidence that Apple is lying, you'd better turn it over to law enforcement personnel. Note that I'm NOT accusing Nokia of lying - just making misleading statements.
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post #27 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jukes View Post

Everyone who builds a cell phone almost certainly needs to license patents that Nokia owns.

Apple just doesn't want to pay what Nokia is asking.



A key point in Apple's counter suit is that Nokia asked for way more than what everyone else is paying. and that's against the rules.

all of this is moot anyway cause there's a guy in Texas suing them both cause he claims to have a patent on the cell phone.

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post #28 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Maybe you could read and try to understand the public documents. It is illegal for a company to flat-out lie in a public document, so they tend not to do that. Instead, they spread FUD and make misleading statements. You need to be able to read for comprehension - and look for very clear statements - which apparently a lot of people are unable to do.

Apple specifically stated that they offered to pay Nokia the same fees that Nokia was charging everyone else....

What jragosta said. With emphasis on the part about what Apple specifically stated. If I could vote and add points to your post, I would, sir (ma'am?).
post #29 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

What you're ignoring - even though it has been pointed out to you - is that Nokia is part of a consortium which requires reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing of their patents. They are asking Apple to pay a much higher fee than they charge anyone else - which is a violation of that agreement. Furthermore, they are insisting that Apple license some non-related patents - even though Apple has never agreed to reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing.

In effect, by participating in the consortium, Nokia no longer has the right to demand what they're asking.

Apple never licensed their iPhone technology to anyone and allege that HTC stole it. Apple certainly has the right to try to prove that.

I assume you meant your reply for the O.P. (Ricardo Dawkins). Otherwise you misunderstood my point (that's ok. It was kind of figurative)
post #30 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

How many times do you need to be told?

Nokia is required to charge everyone the same license fees but they want MORE from Apple. Apple agreed to pay what Nokia charges everyone else and Nokia refused.

Show me.

1) The specific patents under question (patent #s).
2) That these patents are specifically included in a consortium agreement.
3) That the consortium agreement works the way that you claim.

I doubt that you are completely right, or Apple wouldn't have responded to Nokia's patent suit with a patent countersuit that has the risk of invalidating Apple's patents.
post #31 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

What are you talking about?
Nokia thinks a company has violated their patents, and is suing them.
Apple thinks a company has violated their patents, and is suing them.

Looks like a single standard to me.
Please explain?

Apple is fighting the good fight - to avoid the unlawful, despicable theft of its valuable intellectual property rights.

Nokia is a lazy whining bully using unfair tactics to bring a good company down.

Isn't that simple?
post #32 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiced View Post

Stop all the crap about suing! Nokia, for that matter some others too, look at your own creation is it up to usable, reliable and loved by your users. If not you lost the creditability. So what good if you have chest load of patents and they aren't put to good use. Go back to your labs and come clean with a game changer to better iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad, then you talk about your patents.


Welcome to the forum, Spiced. I will enjoy your posts.
post #33 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

A key point in Apple's counter suit is that Nokia asked for way more than what everyone else is paying. and that's against the rules.

Who's rules? Who's jurisdiction?
post #34 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

What you're ignoring - even though it has been pointed out to you - is that Nokia is part of a consortium which requires reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing of their patents. They are asking Apple to pay a much higher fee than they charge anyone else - which is a violation of that agreement. Furthermore, they are insisting that Apple license some non-related patents - even though Apple has never agreed to reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing.

In effect, by participating in the consortium, Nokia no longer has the right to demand what they're asking.

Apple never licensed their iPhone technology to anyone and allege that HTC stole it. Apple certainly has the right to try to prove that.

Is Apple part of the consortium?
post #35 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by pslice View Post

I just wonder if Edison, et al, has sued the makers of those inventors/companies that have improved the light bulb.... Nokia is struggling to survive.

Actually, no. But only because his competitor used a different bulb and base in order to avoid the patent problem.

See how Tesla lit the World's Fair with bayonet based florescent bulbs.
post #36 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

So, the ONLY scenario which would support the view that BOTH companies are telling the truth is the one I stated - that Apple offered reasonable and non-discriminatory payments and Nokia wanted more than that. (In fact, I think Apple specifically stated that this is true).

.


How is Nokia obligated to accept Apple's offer? By contract? What contract?

If Nokia rejected Apple's offer, why did Apple use Nokia's stuff?? Shouldn't they have gotten a judgment on the contract first?
post #37 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

A key point in Apple's counter suit is that Nokia asked for way more than what everyone else is paying. and that's against the rules.

What rules?
post #38 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

Welcome to the forum, Spiced. I will enjoy your posts.

Appreciate your welcome note . Have been reading lots of post here and not airing my views is doing injustice. A first step in posting my frustration of phone manufacturers like Nokia who needs a good beating by Apple who is new to the mobile phone but created such a game changer in just 3yrs. Cheers Apple !
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post #39 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by msantti View Post

If you can't beat 'em, sue 'em.

Alternatively, if you can't beat 'em, steal from 'em.

I've no idea how this is going to work out, but this isn't really news. The fact that there is a suit against the iPhone means iPad 3G was likely to be included as well.
post #40 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by jukes View Post

Who's rules? Who's jurisdiction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

How is Nokia obligated to accept Apple's offer? By contract? What contract?

If Nokia rejected Apple's offer, why did Apple use Nokia's stuff?? Shouldn't they have gotten a judgment on the contract first?

Nokia is part of a consortium that was set up to standardize cell phone intercompatibility. It was apparent that cell phones wouldn't work together well unless there were some standards - and a number of different companies (Motorola, Nokia, RIM, etc) all had relevant technology. They formed a consortium to allow all companies to cross-license each others' patents to help the industry move forward. As part of that consortium, they agree to license their technologies to anyone who wants them at the same reasonable and non-discriminatory rates.

Apple is not a member of the consortium, so they don't have to license their technologies. In fact, IIRC, even if they WERE a member of the consortium, they still wouldn't have to license all of their technology. The agreement says that IF YOU CHOOSE TO LICENSE A TECHNOLOGY, that you have to give everyone the same price. It doesn't require you to license any technology that you choose not to license.

There's no rule that you must be in the consortium to license the technologies, so it doesn't matter if Apple is or isn't.

Nokia agreed to the terms, but now that they're getting their rear end kicked in the market, they're trying to renege.
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