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Apple developing Flash alternative named Gianduia - Page 5

post #161 of 274
[QUOTE=Dick Applebaum;1628472]No, actually, they should leave that for Adobe (for at least a year), then, if still no solution...

There already is Freeway (Softpress). It is a mature application. If you like productivity, you will like Freeway.
post #162 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

I suggest they change the name to Giada. Hubba hubba! Who's with me?

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #163 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

yes, but it would drop by about 90% if you would turn off your computer and stop posting here.



That is only a 'fact' for Adobe shills.

In the real world, Flash sucks on Mac OS X and Linux. It runs adequately (some of the time) on Windows. It doesn't run at all on the rest of the platforms out there.

Right. You just said yourself. Everything but mac. SInce when did linux really matter. Get real.

What part of Beta don't you understand?
I have said beta all along genius. Read the posts, and please try to act like you somewhat understand. This is getting annoying.
Not to mention that it's only in Beta for Android and only for systems with > 800 MHz A8. No Symbian. No WebOS. No Windows Mobile. No iPhoneOS. That's only a tiny, tiny fraction of mobile devices - even if they DO manage to get it working well.
I have posted links to announcements that the other OSs are being worked on. I have been clear that things are in beta, and that it is a work in progress. I have also been clear on, the fact that a 10 year old can find info on how well 10.1 in private beta on mobile currently, is running extremely well. I'm not quite sure why you can't quite understand this, as you keep repeating things already said. If you can't have a meaningful conversation on the subject, give up, and just read k?
But most reports are that it's choppy and slow even on Android.

What reports. Because there are thousands of developers who have seen it first hand recently, who will call you, a liar. Myself, included. I'll expect an outdated googled in link in 3...2...1..
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post #164 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

yes, but it would drop by about 90% if you would turn off your computer and stop posting here.



That is only a 'fact' for Adobe shills.

In the real world, Flash sucks on Mac OS X and Linux. It runs adequately (some of the time) on Windows. It doesn't run at all on the rest of the platforms out there.



What part of Beta don't you understand?

Not to mention that it's only in Beta for Android and only for systems with > 800 MHz A8. No Symbian. No WebOS. No Windows Mobile. No iPhoneOS. That's only a tiny, tiny fraction of mobile devices - even if they DO manage to get it working well.

But most reports are that it's choppy and slow even on Android.

Ok this is getting stupid. You're telling ME it's beta? My god man, I've been saying it all along. Are you now going in circles? Obviously, you can't have a proper discussion on this subject, because clearly you don't know the basics of this issue. You simply hate flash, you're not sure why, and you read a couple blogs. End of story.

And all you got is calling me an adobe shill. I've been clear all along, my intentions, and my thoughts on the matter. It isn't being a shill genius, it's hoping a company delivers on a platform I happened to like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And that is all without the Android version in play. There are rumours it will require v2.2 while other rumours say it will come with v2.2 but will be installable as a package on earlier versions of Android, but since this is still a Beta and Adobe is still struggling to figure out how to make it viable it's all really up in the air. In any regard, we still have BRAND NEW Android phones being sold with v1.x that will likely not v2.x. It's like saying Flash is coming to iPhone OS, but only to the iPad and only the 3G version; it's just a shitty design all around.

And while I think Adobe will get Flash 10.1 to stream 360p and 480p video with stuttering (because they have to or it will be a complete fail), 720p or greater is unlikely and that still doesn't address the battery usage issue. According to Groovetube and WilliamG Flash doesn't affect the battery anymore than HTML5 video. I can't wait for Flash 10.1 to finally land and these kids have to scramble to redefine their arguments once again.

You called me a liar solipsism. I would like to know where. I see you haven't stepped up.

btw I saw first hand 10.1 stream 720p on an android phone, no stutter. I also saw it beat HTML5 canvas in performance, hands down. We all did. There were 1200 people in the audience at the conference. The same keynote is delivered at conferences around the world currently. Perhaps speak to someone in the industry, who knows something of the subject, and save the googled crap.
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post #165 of 274
This boondoggle keeps getting better! As of May 08, 2010 Adobe still can't get a controlled demo to work right on the fastest Android phone with years of development time behind them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daring Fireball

Jeff Croft on Adobe’s Android Flash Demo at FlashCamp Seattle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Croft

Then, he pulled up the same thing on his Nexus One. The site’s progress bar filled in and the 3D world appeared for a few seconds before the browser crashed. Ryan said (paraphrasing), “Whoops! Well, it’s beta, and this is an intense example — let’s try it again.” He tried it again and got the same result. So he said to the audience, “Well, this one isn’t going to work, but does anyone have a Flash site they’d like to see running?” Someone shouted out “Hulu.” Ryan said, “Hulu doesn’t work,” and then wrapped up his demo, telling people if they wanted to try more sites they could find him later and he’d let them play with his Nexus One.

Adobe, you are in a hole. It is already very deep. Time to stop digging.

Usually I'd say a Beta is proof that it is no longer vapourware, but Adobe's track record is so poor that this is vapourware until there are independent tests showing full and stable Flash support, and a release date.
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post #166 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

Ok this is getting stupid. You're telling ME it's beta? My god man, I've been saying it all along.

Not even close to what you've been saying. You've been saying that Flash IS available on mobile platforms.

Ask your third grade teacher what 'is' is. 'Is' is present tense. You've been saying that it works today - when it doesn't. All we have is a very limited beat that might be released this summer and which will work on a tiny fraction of existing phones. That hardly supports your contention that it works today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm not sure which one you've seen, but this might be number two.
http://www.flashmobileblog.com/2010/...-on-nexus-one/ This blog attempts to make excuses as to why the battery life dropped by 25% in the 3 minute video. What's so great about this blog are the excuses as to why they didn't go full screen with the video (they wanted to show the battery stats on screen in realtime, not at the end of the test), why the video looks choppy (it's the compression, not their fault), and that 3 hours of Flash video with a low-bitrate in 1/4 of the display using HW acceleration is fantastic. They also oddly use 199Mbits to state the video size, not MBytes, which would only less than 24.8MB for a 17 minute video. That's under 200Kbps. For video!

I'd say this shows Adobe has come a long way with Flash and that's great, in and of itself but they are so far behind being able to compete with with real world option that they are just kidding themselves by trying. What they should be doing is demonstrating that it's a good option to have for the occasional sites you go to that require Flash and what they've done to make mouse and keyboard inputs work just fine with stubby fingers.


That is a key point. All these qualifiers and excuses for Flash. I can't be walking my mom through all these issues saying that she needs to see if the source file in H.264 for HW acceleration, what the baseline it is, what the bit rate is, etc. It's silly on every level. I know what iPhone OS will do and independent testing shows that Apple's numbers are honest and straightforward.

My favorite is the Tablet video they showed running Flash - until it crashed. It's really funny that they couldn't get it working long enough to even do a demo.

I wonder how much it pays to be an Adobe shill. Surely they must be getting something for all the nonsense they're spreading.
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post #167 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Not even close to what you've been saying. You've been saying that Flash IS available on mobile platforms.

Ask your third grade teacher what 'is' is. 'Is' is present tense. You've been saying that it works today - when it doesn't. All we have is a very limited beat that might be released this summer and which will work on a tiny fraction of existing phones. That hardly supports your contention that it works today.



My favorite is the Tablet video they showed running Flash - until it crashed. It's really funny that they couldn't get it working long enough to even do a demo.

I wonder how much it pays to be an Adobe shill. Surely they must be getting something for all the nonsense they're spreading.

Show me where. I have discussed where it will -be-. I've told you very recently many of us saw it work. in beta.

Let's have it. Still waiting for the other genius to show me where I lied. I suppose I found a couple trolls eh?

btw brilliant on finding videos. So should I now post all the youtubes of html5 running like total crap on the ipad, including apple's own site? Oh sur you HAVE seen those right? Right???

Yay that sounds meaningful.
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post #168 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Not even close to what you've been saying. You've been saying that Flash IS available on mobile platforms.

Ask your third grade teacher what 'is' is. 'Is' is present tense. You've been saying that it works today - when it doesn't. All we have is a very limited beat that might be released this summer and which will work on a tiny fraction of existing phones. That hardly supports your contention that it works today.

He could have stated that it's come a long away and that it'll be good to have for a backup for the few stragglers that won't switch to the more efficient HTML5 video option, but he decided to paint such a false picture and spread so many lies while insulting anyone who didn't agree with him that I had to put him on my ignore list.

I bet he thinks the HP Slate is an iPad killer because he saw in on stage during CES... oh wait.

Quote:
My favorite is the Tablet video they showed running Flash - until it crashed. It's really funny that they couldn't get it working long enough to even do a demo.

I wonder how much it pays to be an Adobe shill. Surely they must be getting something for all the nonsense they're spreading.

Check out the JooJoo. It can apparently do 1080p video, unless that video is Flash then even 720p is a slideshow when windowed (not even fullscreen). That is with a 1.6GHz Atom with Nvidia Ion (9400M IGP) and the Flash 10.1 Beta!!! I won't even get into battery life. So much for that iPad killer.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/05/f...joojoo-review/
http://www.viddler.com/explore/engad...os/1318/56.933 (video)
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post #169 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

He could have stated that it's come a long away and that it'll be good to have for a backup for the few stragglers that won't switch to the more efficient HTML5 video option, but he decided to paint such a false picture and spread so many lies while insulting anyone who didn't agree with him that I had to put him on my ignore list.

I bet he thinks the HP Slate is an iPad killer because he saw in on stage during CES... oh wait.


Check out the JooJoo. It can apparently do 1080p video, unless that video is Flash then even 720p is a slideshow when windowed (not even fullscreen. That is with a 1.6GHz Atom with Nvidia Ion (9400M IGP) and the Flash 10.1 Beta. I won't even get into battery life. So much for that iPad killer.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/05/f...joojoo-review/
http://www.viddler.com/explore/engad...os/1318/56.933 (video)

Let's go pal. You don't go calling people a liar, and not be able to show where.

So let's have it...

oh btw you do know the example you posted is using 10.1 beta 1 meant for desktop use right? Yeah I'm sure you sweat the details when you're busy googling for example to explain why you hate flash. Speaking of shilling...
LOL
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post #170 of 274
Gesundheit!
post #171 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

... I have maintained from the start. Adobe is lazy. Flash sucks for mobile in it's current form. There is a lot we developers dislike about adobe. But a massive number of interactive shops use flash (obviously...) and love the platform for development. Anyone who works on it hopes, that Adobe will get their act together, and put out a killer player for mobile. We had out doubts based on past offerings like flash lite, 10.1 had promise, but after the latest flurry of demonstrations many thousands of us have seen with our own two eyes, it's no longer vapourware as the ones who haven't seen squat mouth off about, it's very close to actual release, and we will begin to start seeing a rollout on each platform. We know it'll be on android, blacklberry, win7, and symbian. (not sure about webOS but suspect so).

I don't know how successful it will be, but odds are, it will be. ...

Well, you are right that Adobe is lazy and that Flash sucks: it is in fact a stinking pile of ancient, creaky, buggy, and now irrelevant code. If Adobe weren't so lazy, it might not suck so much now, but it does, and the odds are, based on the realities of complex software projects, that they can't rewrite it in time to save it. In fact, odds are that it's already too late. Odds are also that there will not be even moderate quality versions of it running in 2010 on all, and maybe even not on a single one, of the mobile platforms you mention.

As for that, "massive number of interactive shops [using] flash (sic)," they are, like rats deserting a sinking ship, abandoning it in accelerating numbers (Scribd is a recent high profile defection), and the empirical evidence supports the notion that Adobe ran out of time about a year ago, that Flash's destiny is already decided and that its destiny is to become a largely irrelevant plugin very quickly.

Content providers don't really care about Flash vs. HTML5, at least the company executives don't in large part. What they do care is being able to reach desirable demographics, and Flash can no longer do that. So, if you're a designer with a religious devotion to Flash, you'll soon be facing the day when you have to explain to your boss why your websites aren't reaching the audience he wants, and he's not really going to care that Flash was all that 5 years ago. So, if you are that designer, my advice is to learn as much about HTML5 as you can as fast as you can, otherwise, some young kid is going to be eating your lunch this time next year.

You can rant about it and call people names here as much as you like, but that doesn't change the fact that Flash is a dead man walking.
post #172 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE NAME

Freaking language bigots...

yes, there's something very wrong with the name. it looks and sounds like an infection - Giardia.
naming a program you want people to use after a virus, infection, or disease is a bad idea.
hell, even iJava would have been better. [or nestle, or mocha, or quik, or nutella as mentioned before]

would you name your child Sisyphus? how about naming your new software Donorrhea?
post #173 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

...And, as you mentioned, we all know it'll on android. And you said 'it doesn't appear to working well'. Really. Have you seen it? I have, in person, and you're full of it. It is indeed working very well....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

...What reports. Because there are thousands of developers who have seen it first hand recently, who will call you, a liar. Myself, included. I'll expect an outdated googled in link in 3...2...1..

The emphasis in your statements, above, is mine.

1) Why don't you post a few links showing Flash 10.1 working "very well" on any mobile device.

2) Why don't cite (links) to 10 of the "thousands of developers" who have seen it first hand, and will call him a "liar." Obviously, these should not be Adobe employees or independent developers, under contract to Adobe or consulting/evangelizing for Adobe.

If what you claim is true, it should be a simple matter to prove your points and quiet the nay-sayers.

.
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post #174 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

I'd like to see Apple make a Dreamweaver like HTML5 development program. It would make a nice addition to their pro apps suite.

You know what, I think this is going to be iWeb. We still haven't seen any updates to the iLife suite so it seems plausible that Apple is working on something with this although a pro version with code editing would be invaluable and I would definitely buy it in a heartbeat.

At the moment though I'm working between Flux and Coda as a workaround.
post #175 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

... 1) Why don't you post a few links showing Flash 10.1 working "very well" on any mobile device. ...

http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2010/may/0...hcamp-seattle/

(via Gruber)


Oh, wait, links showing it working... never mind.
post #176 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The emphasis in your statements, above, is mine.

1) Why don't you post a few links showing Flash 10.1 working "very well" on any mobile device.

2) Why don't cite (links) to 10 of the "thousands of developers" who have seen it first hand, and will call him a "liar." Obviously, these should not be Adobe employees or independent developers, under contract to Adobe or consulting/evangelizing for Adobe.

If what you claim is true, it should be a simple matter to prove your points and quiet the nay-sayers.

.

I witnessed it with 1200 other developers at the design and technology festival in Toronto a few weeks ago, 1200 in attendance at the keynote, they ran 10.1 latest release on an android phone. I didn't get this from a link, a blog, nor did I google it like this guy. If one is interested in more than finding examples in google of flash player performing badly, you can find it. I didn't take video, nor did I take down names of the participants sitting beside me. However, this is well known. The only video I know of that shows of flash on android, is 2 months old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbmnvikY0rg What I saw, was the more recent update. I could try to see if anyone took video at the event. But really, I doubt that's going to stop this pair from calling me a liar or an adobe shill. They're more interested in flash hating at all costs...

But I'm not the one throwing around the name liar here. I'd like to see where it is I 'lied'. I've been honest about what I know, seen, and my opinion. I don't need some poster calling me a liar.
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post #177 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2010/may/0...hcamp-seattle/

(via Gruber)


Oh, wait, links showing it working... never mind.

oh my, another playing the look I found an example of something running badly. Holy mother of god you found something running badly at a public event?

We can spend pages, and pages, of posting links to every technology in existence. I can post youtubes of ipads choking on html5. Does this prove something too?

No, it doesn't. Again, I have been honest about my thoughts on adobe, and where they've fallen down. I've seen things first hand, and have enough experience to predict what -might- happen.

Throwing links around with little background or context, little information other than "LOOK! I"M RIGHT" accomplishes little other than looking smart on a forum I'm afraid.
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post #178 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

He could have stated that it's come a long away and that it'll be good to have for a backup for the few stragglers that won't switch to the more efficient HTML5 video option, but he decided to paint such a false picture and spread so many lies while insulting anyone who didn't agree with him that I had to put him on my ignore list.

I bet he thinks the HP Slate is an iPad killer because he saw in on stage during CES... oh wait.

I think you meant the Courier.

Oh, wait.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2010/may/0...hcamp-seattle/

(via Gruber)


Oh, wait, links showing it working... never mind.

Well worth quoting the relevant section:
"Heres what happened: On his Mac, Ryan pulled up a site called Eco Zoo. It is, seemingly, a pretty intense example of Flash development full of 3D rendering, rich interactions, and cute little characters. Then, he pulled up the same thing on his Nexus One. The sites progress bar filled in and the 3D world appeared for a few seconds before the browser crashed. Ryan said (paraphrasing), Whoops! Well, its beta, and this is an intense example lets try it again. He tried it again and got the same result. So he said to the audience, Well, this one isnt going to work, but does anyone have a Flash site theyd like to see running? Someone shouted out Hulu. Ryan said, Hulu doesnt work, and then wrapped up his demo, telling people if they wanted to try more sites they could find him later and hed let them play with his Nexus One."


The thing I have a hard time understanding is how so many people can be gullible enough for Adobe to get any sympathy at all.
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post #179 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I think you meant the Courier.

Oh, wait.....



Well worth quoting the relevant section:
"Here’s what happened: On his Mac, Ryan pulled up a site called Eco Zoo. It is, seemingly, a pretty intense example of Flash development — full of 3D rendering, rich interactions, and cute little characters. Then, he pulled up the same thing on his Nexus One. The site’s progress bar filled in and the 3D world appeared for a few seconds before the browser crashed. Ryan said (paraphrasing), “Whoops! Well, it’s beta, and this is an intense example — let’s try it again.” He tried it again and got the same result. So he said to the audience, “Well, this one isn’t going to work, but does anyone have a Flash site they’d like to see running?” Someone shouted out “Hulu.” Ryan said, “Hulu doesn’t work,” and then wrapped up his demo, telling people if they wanted to try more sites they could find him later and he’d let them play with his Nexus One."


The thing I have a hard time understanding is how so many people can be gullible enough for Adobe to get any sympathy at all.

So here we have it. A pair of trolls, who have't the ability to carry a conversation. This one, twisted every post I made, because he can't see past the flash hating, his buddy, calls me a liar, but has cut and run because he won't answer to where it is I apparently "lied".

So now they high five each other, posting links of flash crashing or running badly. This isn't discussion, this is a bunch of 2 year olds who can't talk.

Should there be a circle jerk on posting bad performance of html5 on the ipad? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfmbZkqORX4 Does this prove anything? Are we gonna have a flurry of googled links screaming "I'M RIGHT" now?

Waste of time. I suspect there's a couple here capable of balanced discussion, but these two aren't it.
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post #180 of 274
March 6, 2008 » Apple demos and aunches public SDK for iPhone v2.0.

March 18, 2008 » Adobe CEO, Shantanu Narayen states, "We believe Flash is synonymous with the Internet experience, and we are committed to bringing Flash to the iPhone," adding, "We have evaluated (the software developer tools) and we think we can develop an iPhone Flash player ourselves."

Remember, the iPhone was ARM11 @ 412MHz clockspeed, not the Cortex-A8 @ 800MHz that is now the bare minimum requirement.

Okay, so there is some slippery wording in there and he stated the next day that isn't what he meant, that he meant for other phones that weren't as walled up as the iPhone. Fine, I'll give him that, but that was over 2 years ago and it still doesn't exist for the open Android platform with the Nexus One running a Cortex A8 @ 1Ghz w/512MB RAM. Isn't this the same Android platform that was known to the world before the iPhone was even debuted? What about WinMO and WebOS and Symbian? Didn't those also predate the iPhone and aren't they allowing Flash to be installed?

So how are we in May 2010 and it still doesn't exist in a public Beta and all controlled demos are being ripped to shreds by either not working at all or using very low bitrates in small windows without any giving any useful specs. It's all been smoke and mirrors so far but with their head up their collective ass they can't see how pathetic they look or choke on their own vapours.

Last week Kevin Lynch, Adobe's CTO, apparently stated that Flash works fine on the iPhone. If that were true it would work great on every other platform, especially the more open ones with the faster HW. Enough shenanigans!
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post #181 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

The thing I have a hard time understanding is how so many people can be gullible enough for Adobe to get any sympathy at all.

I have no idea what this love for road kill is all about. Adobe has great products. Flash is still viable on a desktop. They have done a lot more in the past 6 months to bring Flash to Android than they have probably done to develop Flash in general in the past several years. But it's not nearly enough effort and it far too late to start thinking about innovation after sitting on their asses for so long letting it fester.
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post #182 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by min_t View Post

first, change the name. we can't champion something we can't even pronounce. that's why the iceland volcano never went viral.

...or maybe you shall start learning your very first foreign language.

On topic: yeah, we really need yet one more "flash player"?!
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post #183 of 274
"Ryan Stewart, a Flash Platform evangelist at Adobe, demoed Flash Player 10.1 running on his Nexus One phone. When I realized he was going to show it, I got excited — I’ve been wanting to see how well Flash really works on a phone for years."

"On his Mac, Ryan pulled up a site called Eco Zoo. It is, seemingly, a pretty intense example of Flash development — full of 3D rendering, rich interactions, and cute little characters. Then, he pulled up the same thing on his Nexus One. The site’s progress bar filled in and the 3D world appeared for a few seconds before the browser crashed. Ryan said (paraphrasing), “Whoops! Well, it’s beta, and this is an intense example — let’s try it again.” He tried it again and got the same result. So he said to the audience, “Well, this one isn’t going to work, but does anyone have a Flash site they’d like to see running?” Someone shouted out “Hulu.” Ryan said, “Hulu doesn’t work,” and then wrapped up his demo, telling people if they wanted to try more sites they could find him later and he’d let them play with his Nexus One."


ON THE ANDROID FLASH DEMO AT FLASHCAMP SEATTLE
post #184 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I witnessed it with 1200 other developers at the design and technology festival in Toronto a few weeks ago, 1200 in attendance at the keynote, they ran 10.1 latest release on an android phone. I didn't get this from a link, a blog, nor did I google it like this guy. If one is interested in more than finding examples in google of flash player performing badly, you can find it. I didn't take video, nor did I take down names of the participants sitting beside me. However, this is well known. The only video I know of that shows of flash on android, is 2 months old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbmnvikY0rg What I saw, was the more recent update. I could try to see if anyone took video at the event. But really, I doubt that's going to stop this pair from calling me a liar or an adobe shill. They're more interested in flash hating at all costs...

But I'm not the one throwing around the name liar here. I'd like to see where it is I 'lied'. I've been honest about what I know, seen, and my opinion. I don't need some poster calling me a liar.

The video you linked is quite good... what I would expect of a beta product.

I find it odd that the presenter in the link (via Gruber) didn't do a presentation similar to that. Possibly, he was trying to wow em' with a later (buggier) version... if so, bad choice.

I understand your reasons for not being able to cite other developers ... fair enough.


Now, let me state my opinions:

1) I am a Mac user-- always have been, Flash on the Mac Sucks, In my experience. In 2004 I tried to program a Stock market site with Flash: Update a 10 column, 30 row table of stocks where the price changed every minute and the total value of each stock was calculated (price * shares = value) and the total value was summed. All the data acquisition and calculations were done server side, and sent to a Flash window on a web page. The Flash could not run fast enough to refresh 61 table fields (out of 301) every 60 seconds. I had friends at Macromedia/Adobe at that time and several Flash experts looked at the code... Long story short, after much effort, we could not make it perform on a Mac (though it worked fine on slower PCs).

2) Fast forward to current Flash running on a 2.8 GHz Core 2 Duo with 4 Gig RAM. After visiting several sites containing Flash the computer slowed. I closed all the Flash windows so Flash was not running at all:

Here's the Flas performance hit:



Also, most of my browser crashes (~95%) were Flash-related. I installed Click2Flash and things "just work" again.


My final point(s)

-- this is an Apple related site for discussion of Apple-related topics, pro and con
-- well-considered, and well-presented points are appreciated by most who choose to participate.
-- several of the members that you are sparring with fit the above description and are generally appreciated
-- while I do not always agree with these members, I enjoy the discussion and sometimes alter my views because of their posts

-- when there is a lot of unproductive bashing going on, I generally look at the participants and my experience with them.
-- often, the contentious posting can be traced to a few anti-Apple Trolls.

-- You and a few others have recently joined this forum (you within the last 8 days) and have made a lot of controversial posts
-- while that in itself does not make you a troll, it does raise suspicion

-- In these situations, I tend to give more credence to members I know (but do not necessarily agree with) than members I do not know.

Finally, I am not going to reread all the posts... but I really doubt that you have been called a "liar'"

Challenging your facts or the "truth" of what you say... is not calling you a liar!

BTW, I read the link via Gruber and all the comments-- I found it a pretty even-handed discussion, and the blogger made considerable effort to be fair and challenge obvious trolls.

.
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post #185 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

... Flash is still viable on a desktop. ...

Actually, it's no more viable there than on the iPhone. Content producers aren't going to stick with Flash on the "desktop" for very long once they realize how viable the alternative is; that would be duplicating efforts and Flash just doesn't have the legs even on the desktop to make that duplication worthwhile. Flash is dead everywhere because it's stillborn on mobile. People have a choice of clinging to an outdated technology and falling ever further behind, or getting on board now with HTML5 and reaping the benefits.
post #186 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I think you meant the Courier.

I mean HP Slate, the device Ballmar had in his hands with the Twilight image of the hands holding 'apple' on it. Courier was a just animation of vapourware that MS said was coming (eventually) in hopes that no one would buy the iPad. Has that type of marketing ever worked?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

Should there be a circle jerk on posting bad performance of html5 on the ipad? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfmbZkqORX4 Does this prove anything? Are we gonna have a flurry of googled links screaming "I'M RIGHT" now?

OMG, why did I click on his kid's post? But glad I did, as it's yet another strike against the bloat of Flash and ineptitude of Adobe.

Now he's implying that Canvas is HTML5 when it's clearly just one aspect of it that is known to be processor intensive. HTML5 has been used since the first iPhone and is used throughout all modern mobile OS browsers.

He probably doesn't even realize the asinine stance of comparing CPU intensive Canvas 3D animations in HTML5 with the Flash video issue. He also probably doesn't even notice the elephant in the room, that Adobe can't even get video to play on Cortex-A8 @ 1GHz w/512MB RAM Nexus One yet HTML5 video plays great on mobiles.

His blinders surely didn't let him see that while the 1st Canvas demo (which pushes my brand new MBP in Safari to use 100%/200% CPU) doesn't crash my iPhone with a 600MHz CPU or the guy's iPad, yet the Nexus One can't even play video or simply crashes altogether.

The last issue — I'm not sure if the Elmer FUD in the video is really good at spreading lies or just a complete buffoon — is his choosing mostly Canvas demos that specifically need a mouse pointer for input, not a touchscreen. We're not going to see this single aspect of HTML5 being used for mobiles until it's much more mature, but HTMl5 for video, the most common use of Flash today, will take over as well as many other aspects of HTML5.

You all can try these demos yourself. Here's the first one...

http://www.kevs3d.co.uk/dev/canvask3d/k3d_test.html
PS: You can also see how much CPU heavy Flash is by installing the latest Beta on your desktop OS and then switching between YouTube's Flash and HTML5 options.

http://www.youtube.com/html5
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post #187 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwervel16 View Post

Erm, the name / joke analogy is actually a little boneheaded. How many hugely successful products and companies of the last decade have nonsensical names? I don't even need to provide an example. Your style of thinking might be better suited to hygiene accessory manufacturers.

I just started to read this thread so if some one beat me to it, but how about google?
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post #188 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

I just started to read this thread so if some one beat me to it, but how about google?

I believe it is derived from this:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Googol.html

It means "a whole lot" of anything.... likely, more pennies than I'll make in my lifetime

.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #189 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The video you linked is quite good... what I would expect of a beta product.

I find it odd that the presenter in the link (via Gruber) didn't do a presentation similar to that. Possibly, he was trying to wow em' with a later (buggier) version... if so, bad choice.

I understand your reasons for not being able to cite other developers ... fair enough.


Now, let me state my opinions:

1) I am a Mac user-- always have been, Flash on the Mac Sucks, In my experience. In 2004 I tried to program a Stock market site with Flash: Update a 10 column, 30 row table of stocks where the price changed every minute and the total value of each stock was calculated (price * shares = value) and the total value was summed. All the data acquisition and calculations were done server side, and sent to a Flash window on a web page. The Flash could not run fast enough to refresh 61 table fields (out of 301) every 60 seconds. I had friends at Macromedia/Adobe at that time and several Flash experts looked at the code... Long story short, after much effort, we could not make it perform on a Mac (though it worked fine on slower PCs).

2) Fast forward to current Flash running a a 2.8 GHz Core 2 Duo with 4 Gig RAM. After visiting several sites containing Flash the computer slowed. I closed all the Flash windows so Flash was not running at all:

Here's the Flas performance hit:



Also, most of my browser crashes (~95%) were Flash-related. I installed Click2Flash and things "just work" again.


My final point(s)

-- this is an Apple related site for discussion of Apple-related topics, pro and con
-- well-considered, and well-presented points are appreciated by most who choose to participate.
-- several of the members that you are sparring with fit the above description and are generally appreciated
-- while I do not always agree withe these members, I enjoy the discussion and sometimes alter my views because of their posts

-- when there is a lot of unproductive bashing going on, I generally look at the participants and my experience with them.
-- often, the contentious posting can be traced to a few anti-Apple Trolls.

-- You and a few others have recently joined this forum (you within the last 8 days) and have made a lot of controversial posts
-- while that in itself does not make you a troll, it does raise suspicion

-- In these situations, I tend to give more credence to members I know (but do not necessarily agree with) than members I do not know.

Finally, I am not going to reread all the posts... but I really doubt that you have been called a "liar'"

Challenging your facts or the "truth" of what you say... is not calling you a liar!

BTW, I read the link via Gruber and all the comments-- I found it a pretty even-handed discussion, and the blogger made considerable effort to be fair and challenge obvious trolls.

.

Actually the pair of them said I said something, and when I asked where, they never responded. I know why, because I never said them. They took many of my statements, and twisted them, and rarely if ever stayed in a straight enough line. This is my introduction here, I don't know them, all I have to base my impression is that. And:
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Don't add to Groovetube's lies and anti-Apple/pro-Adobe agenda....

I never heard what my "lies" were. Then I head I was getting ready for the ban hammer. Well.

I'm not anti-apple, and certainly no troll. I switched to macs back when very few of my developer friends were on macs, and took a little ribbing for it. My PC corrupted when I had a deadline for the last time, and I had a beige G3 souped up for testing and premier video edits, I downloaded the trials, and even with less than half the power, finished all my work that day. I went out and bought a dual G4 with Jaguar the next day. I've bought a hell of a lot of macs, my shop is pretty much all apple, I own an iphone, bought my wife one, have an apple tv, (love it), and I'm typing on a relatively new 17 MBP tricked out. If I were anti apple, I have a screw loose.

Despite being a card carrying apple user, if Apple, or Steve Jobs does something I really disagree with, I'm going to say so. I disagree with his hard line on flash, not because I think it should have -been- on the phone, because I really DON'T, but because I believe, based on my experience, and involvement, he isn't being altogether truthful. Certainly, not anymore than adobe has been. And I stand firm on that, despite being called an adobe shill, and a liar.

I am at a disadvantage here, because adobe hasn't released 10.1 mobile yet. Personally, it's my business to stay very on top of where this is going, and certainly, I have concerns. I'm hopeful based on what I saw, I know well where the industry is on all this, and we are very far, from the demise of flash. I've developed in flash since version 3 professionally. And this, is certainly by far, not the first time I've heard flash will be killed. It's waaaay to ubiquitous to die that quickly by any means. Flash will take it on the chin over video, but again, it seems people are forgetting something. I've been around long enough, to remember when flash had no video support, and it did just fine then too. It's a point that seems completely missed by everyone.

Flash on the mac has pissed me of since switching. It's always ran about 10 to 20 fps second slower, and things like no kerning tables available on export etc. has been minor annoyances. Adobe has been lazy on developing for mac. Sure it's been frustrating. I think adobe underestimated apple, and 6ish% of the market for it's player just wasn't important enough.

Now we are looking at 16% in the mobile space (though apple guys want you to feel it's 95...), and the ipad will be an important entry into the market. I try to look past all the chest thumping, the flash is GONA DIE! the high fiving, googling of links designed to prove a point, because none of it has any value at the end of the day. I'll make my decisions based on what I see. I, and many hundreds of thousands of developers, are watching adobe right now, and I'm sure they're keenly aware of it. All eyes are on android, the flight to support android in the developer community lately has been rather breath-taking. It was rather almost unknown to me until a number of weeks ago all hell breaks loose. I think google needs to send SJ a note of thanks...

Anyway, now this gets turned into an us and them somehow, all I was trying to do was inject -some- sanity and truth, or perhaps balance, a devil's advocate, if that were even possible. What resulted, is I'm a anti apple troll or lying adobe shill. Cripes. Is it really that religious here? I think things are very much in the balance right now. No one can say with any degree of certainty what is going to result ina couple years, though some seem to have quite the crystal ball. One can only wish...

As for your flash trouble, data enabled flash is something I hae a lot of experience in. Namely I write a lot of PHP, and I can't say I've had the kind of trouble you've experienced. 60 seconds is a hell of a lot of time, and I've pushed a hell of a lot more data in a 1/4 of the time with no problems, but, there's a lot factors that could be in play there. I hope you didn't use adobe's -horrible- components...

Out of curiosity, what flash sites did you visit to get it to 800megs? I just surfed the hell out of youtube, and the best I could get was just over a 100 megs.
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post #190 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

do some research, go see for yourself in person before mouthing off about something you obviously know zero about. It's annoying to see the constant barrage of crap posted everywhere by apple fanbois that has little merit, or basis in fact at all.

It's already been said that adobe certainly missed the boat, has been lazy, blah blah. I already said I firmly believe and support apple's decision NOT to put flash in it's current form on the iphone. And, it's now up to adobe, to deliver. And I meant it.

But the BS has to stop at some point. I love apple stuff too, but that doesn't mean I swallow and parrot everything his Steveness spouts.

the BS will stop once adobe actually ships flash for mobiles. then we'll see if adobe can deliver.
it's been 3 years since this debate started and so far we haven't seen much that's promising.

in the meantime content providers have started to move away from flash for video playback. that's obviously not all flash does, but i'm sure it represents a sizeable chunk of adobe's flash market.

with iphone os devices likely never supporting flash, it's a no-brainer for businesses to abandon flash, if they want the eyeballs of iphone os using customers. in the end it's really up to them (the content providers) to make that decision. it's about their business, not about adobe, and not about apple. the underlying technology is irrelevant if the content does not reach the desired demographic.
post #191 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

the BS will stop once adobe actually ships flash for mobiles. then we'll see if adobe can deliver.
it's been 3 years since this debate started and so far we haven't seen much that's promising.

in the meantime content providers have started to move away from flash for video playback. that's obviously not all flash does, but i'm sure it represents a sizeable chunk of adobe's flash market.

with iphone os devices likely never supporting flash, it's a no-brainer for businesses to abandon flash, if they want the eyeballs of iphone os using customers. in the end it's really up to them (the content providers) to make that decision. it's about their business, not about adobe, and not about apple. the underlying technology is irrelevant if the content does not reach the desired demographic.

we will indeed see how things pan out when adobe finally releases they're player. It's up to adobe at this point as to whether flash will survive, as I've made abundantly clear several times.

Let's remember, apple's smartphone share, -is- only 16%. It's sizeable, worth considering, and a good market. But it isn't big enough to kill flash, even if it grew significantly. I personally don't care if flash ever makes it to iphone, really, but I'd like to see it on tablets.

I think this war is very far, from over, it's just beginning, and already people are placing their bets. This happened in the late 80s I recall...
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post #192 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm not sure which one you've seen, but this might be number two.
http://www.flashmobileblog.com/2010/...-on-nexus-one/ SNIP.

the best thing about that blog is that i can switch to vimeo and then use their html5 player to watch it without my macbook's fans going into overdrive...
post #193 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

we will indeed see how things pan out when adobe finally releases they're player. It's up to adobe at this point as to whether flash will survive, as I've made abundantly clear several times.

Let's remember, apple's smartphone share, -is- only 16%. It's sizeable, worth considering, and a good market. But it isn't big enough to kill flash, even if it grew significantly. I personally don't care if flash ever makes it to iphone, really, but I'd like to see it on tablets.

I think this war is very far, from over, it's just beginning, and already people are placing their bets. This happened in the late 80s I recall...

while apple's smartphone share is indeed fairly low, the share of phones on the market that come with flash right now is exactly 0%. with the reported hardware requirements being what they are, the market share of full flash capable phones on the market are likely going to be around 1% when adobe finally gets around to actually releasing it.

that means that any business looking for a content delivery vehicle is already looking elsewhere in the meantime. i think the window of opportunity has closed on adobe. the writing has been on the wall for 3 years. i think adobe chose not to read it.

if they had a version for the iphone ready to go (as they have claimed), why didn't they have an android version ready to go that works with the current crop of android phones?
post #194 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

while apple's smartphone share is indeed fairly low, the share of phones on the market that come with flash right now is exactly 0%. with the reported hardware requirements being what they are, the market share of full flash capable phones on the market are likely going to be around 1% when adobe finally gets around to actually releasing it.

that means that any business looking for a content delivery vehicle is already looking elsewhere in the meantime. i think the window of opportunity has closed on adobe. the writing has been on the wall for 3 years. i think adobe chose not to read it.

if they had a version for the iphone ready to go (as they have claimed), why didn't they have an android version ready to go that works with the current crop of android phones?

well there's no doubt adobe has been lazy. I think that's clear. Though I think they may have been referring to flash lite at that point. Apple wasn't interested in flash lite...

But I'll have to disagree that the window of opportunity has closed. The mobile space is very much in it's infancy, and I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions far too early. And I think Steve Jobs, is keenly aware of this. Clearly, he considers google, a very formidable threat.

Flash certainly has plenty of time to shoot itself in the foot in the future yet.
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post #195 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

while apple's smartphone share is indeed fairly low, the share of phones on the market that come with flash right now is exactly 0%. with the reported hardware requirements being what they are, the market share of full flash capable phones on the market are likely going to be around 1% when adobe finally gets around to actually releasing it.

An exact null percentage isn't entirely correct. The Nokia N900 runs Maemo 5 which runs Flash, not Flash Lite. Though I think it's disabled by default because of how shitty it really is. Still, if you look at units sold I doubt that would even round up to a 1/100,000th of a percent.
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post #196 of 274
what's interesting about the marketshare fight here, is people are asserting that no one is going to care about a really small marketshare of flash enabled devices.

Yet somehow, when apple had less than 5%, that was something to really pay attention to.

It doesn't work both ways. I suspect, -if- adobe is successful in deploying a good player that becomes well received, you're going to see some fairly high percentages at the end of 2010. Perhaps, and I'll go out on a limb that I'm sure someone will happily shoot down with all sorts of colorful names, a higher percentage than iphone's marketshare of 16%.
<ducks>

I might remind people that html5, has quite a ways to go yet. Years, in fact...
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post #197 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

well there's no doubt adobe has been lazy. I think that's clear. Though I think they may have been referring to flash lite at that point. Apple wasn't interested in flash lite...

But I'll have to disagree that the window of opportunity has closed. The mobile space is very much in it's infancy, and I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions far too early. And I think Steve Jobs, is keenly aware of this. Clearly, he considers google, a very formidable threat.

Flash certainly has plenty of time to shoot itself in the foot in the future yet.

i'm not arguing that the window is closed over apple's 'high' percentage of market share. i'm predicting that apples customers and demographic - even at say 12% - are important enough for content providers to decide on alternatives that work everywhere.

microsoft's announcement that they will support html5 video through h.264 in IE9 makes flash a less viable product. adobe has coasted on the '97% of computers have flash installed' talking point for years. if we replace 'computers' with 'devices capable of reaching your customers' that is no longer the case.

even if adobe releases a killer version for android, minmo, webos, blackberry and whoever else wants to play - you're locking out a desirable market if you choose flash for video delivery on mobile platforms. since there are viable alternatives out right now, why go that way?

i'm curious to hear if anyone has any numbers on use of flash that's not video related. my guess is that it's not near the numbers that adobe claims for the whole of flash (they're likely always counting video).

i think that 3 years of iphone and ipad touch sales have pretty much proven that flash availability is not nearly as important as adobe wants us to believe. the fact that other mobile manufacturers have jumped to add a checkbox to their specsheets has more to do with wanting to have one advantage over the iphone, than with genuine support for flash as a platform.
post #198 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

Actually the pair of them said I said something, and when I asked where, they never responded. I know why, because I never said them. They took many of my statements, and twisted them, and rarely if ever stayed in a straight enough line. This is my introduction here, I don't know them, all I have to base my impression is that. And:

I never heard what my "lies" were. Then I head I was getting ready for the ban hammer.

Again, I am not going to reread all the posts... Let me just say this: Most of the members you are sparring with are quite open minded, and I try to be. Sometimes, though, it gets frustrating when someone challenges every statement or frequently takes positions opposite to their prior positions (changing sides). It usually looks something like this: I am a total Apple fan, but they really suck on this issue (and everything else too)!

Sometimes it wears thin and people get into "fighting mode"... I know do.

Do you realize that you say that people with 10 of thousands of posts (over many years) to this forum are calling you a liar. And that you, with less than 100 posts in 8 days, are calling them trolls?

Quote:
Anyway, now this gets turned into an us and them somehow, all I was trying to do was inject -some- sanity and truth, or perhaps balance, a devil's advocate, if that were even possible. What resulted, is I'm a anti apple troll or lying adobe shill. Cripes. Is it really that religious here?

Devil's advocates are often mistaken for the Devil, himself. It is a difficult role for a newcomer to carry off... maybe lead in with: "Let me play Devil's advocate and..."

I have been guilty of name calling/insinuation in the heat of a frustrating exchange that appears to be a circular argument that contributes nothing (except to clutter the discussion with cruft).

I think someone mentioned a "Circle Jerk"... at least that could give some satisfaction.

Quote:
I think things are very much in the balance right now. No one can say with any degree of certainty what is going to result ina couple years, though some seem to have quite the crystal ball. One can only wish...

Agree!

Flash may have under-supported the Apple side of things. However, If they can deliver a boffo mobile solution that supports, rather than threatens, the Apple platform...

...SJ could change his mind. Not likely, but it's happened before!

Quote:
As for your flash trouble, data enabled flash is something I hae a lot of experience in. Namely I write a lot of PHP, and I can't say I've had the kind of trouble you've experienced. 60 seconds is a hell of a lot of time, and I've pushed a hell of a lot more data in a 1/4 of the time with no problems, but, there's a lot factors that could be in play there. I hope you didn't use adobe's -horrible- components...

This was in 2004-5, the server-side was ColdFusion MX (Compiled Java ByteCode). Actually, I think I did use Flash Components-- they were the latest, greatest thing!

BTW, Mike Chambers (now with Adobe) was a fellow independent ColdFusion developer and was quite reasonable and helpful... a "good guy".

Quote:

Out of curiosity, what flash sites did you visit to get it to 800megs? I just surfed the hell out of youtube, and the best I could get was just over a 100 megs.


I normally keep 1 browser window open with tabs for all the forum sites I frequent (below). Most of these are loaded with Flash ads and/or videos. I have a few, single tab sites for stocks Apple iPhone SDK, etc. As I find a site or tab that interests me I will right-click and open that topic in a separate window:


Here are the forum tabs:

http://quotes.nasdaq.com/Quote.dll?s...x=26&multi.y=4
http://daringfireball.net/
http://www.patentlyapple.com/
http://www.macrumors.com/
http://www.macbytes.com/
http://www.appleinsider.com/
http://www.macworld.com/
http://www.macsimumnews.com/
http://www.macnn.com/
http://macdevcenter.com/
http://apple.slashdot.org/
http://www.macsurfer.com/
http://arstechnica.com/index.ars
http://www.eweek.com/
http://roughlydrafted.com/
http://www.tuaw.com/

I review, but don't participate in the roughly drafted site (second from last)-- it's way too pro-Apple biased for me (The author of that blog is also the author of this thread.)

.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #199 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

An exact null percentage isn't entirely correct. The Nokia N900 runs Maemo 5 which runs Flash, not Flash Lite. Though I think it's disabled by default because of how shitty it really is. Still, if you look at units sold I doubt that would even round up to a 1/100,000th of a percent.

i stand corrected. i forgot about the N900. i do seem to recall that it's using flash 9 and popular sites such as hulu don't work on it. soooo - is that still full flash?
post #200 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

what's interesting about the marketshare fight here, is people are asserting that no one is going to care about a really small marketshare of flash enabled devices.

Yet somehow, when apple had less than 5%, that was something to really pay attention to.

It doesn't work both ways. I suspect, -if- adobe is successful in deploying a good player that becomes well received, you're going to see some fairly high percentages at the end of 2010. Perhaps, and I'll go out on a limb that I'm sure someone will happily shoot down with all sorts of colorful names, a higher percentage than iphone's marketshare of 16%.
<ducks>

I might remind people that html5, has quite a ways to go yet. Years, in fact...

i don't think there was a market share fight. flash's market share on mobile is not high enough yet to really fight over...

apple's market share may have been belowe 5%, but both adobe and microsoft have certainly paid attention to it. adobe for the ca. 50% of their CS suite revenue and microsoft... well... somebody had to show them what's next, right?
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