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Apple developing Flash alternative named Gianduia - Page 6

post #201 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

i stand corrected. i forgot about the N900. i do seem to recall that it's using flash 9 and popular sites such as hulu don't work on it. soooo - is that still full flash?

Technically, yes, but that brings up the next issue in this long list of Flash related issues. As you stated earlier, it "add a checkbox to their specsheets."

I suspect Adobe could have had a stable version of Flash 10.x running on Android a year or two ago, the problem is that is would be as pointless as Flash on the N900. I suspect the instability is from Adobe trying desperately to reduce the resource unfriendly nature of Flash so that it's not technically working on the Nexus One but working well. If they don't offer that then it will just knock them down even further.

After they deal with that issue, then there is the issue of battery life, which they can't solve without being more efficient than the HTML5 video tag option in mobile browsers. The newest lie is that Flash doesn't adversely affect battery life. Let's think about that for a moment. For it not affect battery life it would mean playing HTML5 video would use the same or more CPU cycles than playing that same video in Flash. from my testing with YouTube on the desktop, my CPU is pushed harder (using more power) which generates heat which in turn pushes my fans (using more power). A mobile won't have the fan power issue, but it will have the additional CPU issue even when H.264 is being decoded by the GPU.
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post #202 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

What part of Beta don't you understand?

Remember when Microsoft got the blue screen of death in the middle of a demo, and we all woke up the next day to a world in which they had only a 5% market share and Apple had 92%?

It's like that.
post #203 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

i don't think there was a market share fight. flash's market share on mobile is not high enough yet to really fight over...

apple's market share may have been belowe 5%, but both adobe and microsoft have certainly paid attention to it. adobe for the ca. 50% of their CS suite revenue and microsoft... well... somebody had to show them what's next, right?

I think that the big issue is mobile devices, period. Apple, alone, has 100 Million devices out there. Soon, smart mobile devices will outnumber traditional computers... billions.

Say, someone like Apple, has 10% market share of a billion smart devices...

...and can deliver targeted advertising to 100 million highly-qualified buyers...

That's what it's all about!

.
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post #204 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Remember when Microsoft got the blue screen of death in the middle of a demo, and we all woke up the next day to a world in which they had only a 5% market share and Apple had 92%?

It's like that.

That's makes no sense. For your scenario to be true 92% of PCs sold would have to be Macs, leaving 8% for Dell, HP, Sony, Acer, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think that the big issue is mobile devices, period. Apple, alone, has 100 Million devices out there. Soon, smart mobile devices will outnumber traditional computers... billions.

Say, someone like Apple, has 10% market share of a billion smart devices...

...and can deliver targeted advertising to 100 million highly-qualified buyers...

That's what it's all about!

QFT
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #205 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Again, I am not going to reread all the posts... Let me just say this: Most of the members you are sparring with are quite open minded, and I try to be. Sometimes, though, it gets frustrating when someone challenges every statement or frequently takes positions opposite to their prior positions (changing sides). It usually looks something like this: I am a total Apple fan, but they really suck on this issue (and everything else too)!

Sometimes it wears thin and people get into "fighting mode"... I know do.

Do you realize that you say that people with 10 of thousands of posts (over many years) to this forum are calling you a liar. And that you, with less than 100 posts in 8 days, are calling them trolls?



Devil's advocates are often mistaken for the Devil, himself. It is a difficult role for a newcomer to carry off... maybe lead in with: "Let me play Devil's advocate and..."

I have been guilty of name calling/insinuation in the heat of a frustrating exchange that appears to be a circular argument that contributes nothing (except to clutter the discussion with cruft).

I think someone mentioned a "Circle Jerk"... at least that could give some satisfaction.



Agree!

Flash may have under-supported the Apple side of things. However, If they can deliver a boffo mobile solution that supports, rather than threatens, the Apple platform...

...SJ could change his mind. Not likely, but it's happened before!



This was in 2004-5, the server-side was ColdFusion MX (Compiled Java ByteCode). Actually, I think I did use Flash Components-- they were the latest, greatest thing!

BTW, Mike Chambers (now with Adobe) was a fellow independent ColdFusion developer and was quite reasonable and helpful... a "good guy".




I normally keep 1 browser window open with tabs for all the forum sites I frequent (below). Most of these are loaded with Flash ads and/or videos. I have a few, single tab sites for stocks Apple iPhone SDK, etc. As I find a site or tab that interests me I will right-click and open that topic in a separate window:


Here are the forum tabs:

http://quotes.nasdaq.com/Quote.dll?s...x=26&multi.y=4
http://daringfireball.net/
http://www.patentlyapple.com/
http://www.macrumors.com/
http://www.macbytes.com/
http://www.appleinsider.com/
http://www.macworld.com/
http://www.macsimumnews.com/
http://www.macnn.com/
http://macdevcenter.com/
http://apple.slashdot.org/
http://www.macsurfer.com/
http://arstechnica.com/index.ars
http://www.eweek.com/
http://roughlydrafted.com/
http://www.tuaw.com/

I review, but don't participate in the roughly drafted site (second from last)-- it's way too pro-Apple biased for me (The author of that blog is also the author of this thread.)

.

I think the one with "tens of thousands of posts" should man up and show me where I lied. This is my introduction here, I've tried to be honest with my opinion, what I know, and what I -don't- know. Some here seem to have quite the crystal ball it seems!

I'm sorry about the circlejerk comment, but after being told what I said when I never did, asked where I did, never got a resonse (BIG SURPRISE EH!!) it got to be absolutely ridiculous, I don't care how open minded they apparently were...

and yeah, in 2004-5, there were some pretty horrible components in flash. If you thought flash player was bad on mac... it was well known never to go near those unless you absolutely -had- to. Always a way to write your own to be a tenth the size. Never worked in coldfusion though.
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post #206 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

Yet somehow, when apple had less than 5%, that was something to really pay attention to.

Apple has a small percentages of people who are willing to spend over $1000 on a computer, and disproportionately spend a lot of money on expensive software suites.

Quote:
Perhaps, and I'll go out on a limb that I'm sure someone will happily shoot down with all sorts of colorful names, a higher percentage than iphone's marketshare of 16%.

You are looking in the wrong place. The iPhone does not dominate sales per unit. But it does overwhelmingly dominate web usage and app sales.

Quote:
I might remind people that html5, has quite a ways to go yet. Years, in fact...

In the past three years HTML5 has gone from barely recognized to dominating the mobile web. Its already being used. What more years are you talking about?
post #207 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Technically, yes, but that brings up the next issue in this long list of Flash related issues. As you stated earlier, it "add a checkbox to their specsheets."

I suspect Adobe could have had a stable version of Flash 10.x running on Android a year or two ago, the problem is that is would be as pointless as Flash on the N900. I suspect the instability is from Adobe trying desperately to reduce the resource unfriendly nature of Flash so that it's not technically working on the Nexus One but working well. If they don't offer that then it will just knock them down even further.

After they deal with that issue, then there is the issue of battery life, which they can't solve without being more efficient than the HTML5 video tag option in mobile browsers. The newest lie is that Flash doesn't adversely affect battery life. Let's think about that for a moment. For it not affect battery life it would mean playing HTML5 video would use the same or more CPU cycles than playing that same video in Flash. from my testing with YouTube on the desktop, my CPU is pushed harder (using more power) which generates heat which in turn pushes my fans (using more power). A mobile won't have the fan power issue, but it will have the additional CPU issue even when H.264 is being decoded by the GPU.

adobe certainly has their work cut out for them. the chances of them fixing flash for the mac are definitely slimming by being pushed down in the list of priorities (as if it hasn't always been just above photoshop for linux).

thankfully click-to-flash makes flash infested sites much more tolerable in safari, and i don't have to go into flash-rage as often as i used to...

as a mac user i'm definitely over flash and i have argued against its use for frivolous eye candy to clients for years.
post #208 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I think that the big issue is mobile devices, period. Apple, alone, has 100 Million devices out there. Soon, smart mobile devices will outnumber traditional computers... billions.

Say, someone like Apple, has 10% market share of a billion smart devices...

...and can deliver targeted advertising to 100 million highly-qualified buyers...

That's what it's all about!

.

I don't disagree. Though I think many are calling it a day on how things are and are pretty sure of it.

I say, let's talk in 3 years. That's a loong time in this industry, and if anyone think the other several companies with really REALLY deep pockets will continue to let apple rule the roost, they're dreaming. I can't predict what marketshare will be like, but as I said, this whole thing has only just barely, begun.

And back to this html5 vs flash thing, well, while I still don't believe it's a vs thing at all, let's remember, html5 is far from official by any means as well. It has quite a ways to go itself despite the chest thumping, So everyone yelling that flash isn't out of the gate seem to be forgetting this little tidbit as well.

I've heard the term flash killer for well over ten years...
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post #209 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

adobe certainly has their work cut out for them. the chances of them fixing flash for the mac are definitely slimming by being pushed down in the list of priorities (as if it hasn't always been just above photoshop for linux).

thankfully click-to-flash makes flash infested sites much more tolerable in safari, and i don't have to go into flash-rage as often as i used to...

as a mac user i'm definitely over flash and i have argued against its use for frivolous eye candy to clients for years.

if you're wondering about 'fixing flash for mac', you can keep more up to date on it here. http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html

Try out the latest. The latest one also includes hardware acceleration for a few nVidia video cards.
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post #210 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I think the one with "tens of thousands of posts" should man up and show me where I lied. This is my introduction here, I've tried to be honest with my opinion, what I know, and what I -don't- know. Some here seem to have quite the crystal ball it seems!

I'm sorry about the circlejerk comment, but after being told what I said when I never did, asked where I did, never got a resonse (BIG SURPRISE EH!!) it got to be absolutely ridiculous, I don't care how open minded they apparently were...

and yeah, in 2004-5, there were some pretty horrible components in flash. If you thought flash player was bad on mac... it was well known never to go near those unless you absolutely -had- to. Always a way to write your own to be a tenth the size. Never worked in coldfusion though.

well. welcome to apple insider.

i would suggest that perhaps, maybe, if it's not too much to ask, that you try to cut down on your usage of 'fanboi', 'his steveness', and other derogatory and inflammatory language, and you'll find that (for the most part) you can have reasonable discussions here... that said - once we reach page 5 on any discussions, the tone has likely deteriorated. better get used to it!
post #211 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

well. welcome to apple insider.

i would suggest that perhaps, maybe, if it's not too much to ask, that you try to cut down on your usage of 'fanboi', 'his steveness', and other derogatory and inflammatory language, and you'll find that (for the most part) you can have reasonable discussions here... that said - once we reach page 5 on any discussions, the tone has likely deteriorated. better get used to it!

i'll keep that under advisement.

Sorry, when attacked, I have fangs too.
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post #212 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

if you're wondering about 'fixing flash for mac', you can keep more up to date on it here. http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html

Try out the latest. The latest one also includes hardware acceleration for a few nVidia video cards.

yes. i'm sorry to say i'm not letting any adobe betas on my computers any more. been there. done that. nVida support doesn't help me, my macbook pro is 3 years old. click-to-flash automatically requests h.264 from youtube. that's good enough for me. for now.
post #213 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple has a small percentages of people who are willing to spend over $1000 on a computer, and disproportionately spend a lot of money on expensive software suites.

You are looking in the wrong place. The iPhone does not dominate sales per unit. But it does overwhelmingly dominate web usage and app sales.

To add to the list of impressive and growing feats...
Apple has over 90% of buyers willing to spend ≥$1000 on a PC.
Apple reportedly makes the most profit of all PC manufacturers.
Apple makes the most profit of all handset vendors.

Quote:
In the past three years HTML5 has gone from barely recognized to dominating the mobile web. Its already being used. What more years are you talking about?

Didn't HP just buy a company that has an entire mobile OS based on HTML5 and the WebKit browser engine Apple funds? It seems to me that HTML5 is alive and well in 2010 on mobiles. Can't say the same for Flash.

Google is even pushing it over the use of Gears. "We are excited that much of the technology in Gears, including offline support and geolocation APIs, are being incorporated into the HTML5 spec as an open standard supported across browsers, and see that as the logical next step for developers looking to include these features in their websites," wrote a Google spokesman.

Now MS is supporting the HTML5 video tag in the browser. Flash for video will only be decreasing marketshare from here on out.
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post #214 of 274
despite some impressive statements, which is great, but let's face reality again.

macs are still under 10%, iphones are still only at 16%.

rim, google, nokia, win, combined, still whacks iphone's share by a country mile.

Disclaimer:
Now let's not get excited. I'm merely stating some balance here. I like my macs and have 2 iphones.
What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
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post #215 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

yes. i'm sorry to say i'm not letting any adobe betas on my computers any more. been there. done that. nVida support doesn't help me, my macbook pro is 3 years old. click-to-flash automatically requests h.264 from youtube. that's good enough for me. for now.

Flash 10.1 Beta 3 is a huge improvement over Beta 2, but when you compare Beta 3 in YouTube to HTML5 in YouTube you see that they aren't even close to matching the efficiency of direct browser video playback of HTML5.

The only thing Flash still has going for it is the lack of simple fullscreen access. Jillion has a "solution" but it requires a newer WebKit nightly and holding down a key while clicking a virtual button. That is less than ideal.
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post #216 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

and yeah, in 2004-5, there were some pretty horrible components in flash. If you thought flash player was bad on mac... it was well known never to go near those unless you absolutely -had- to. Always a way to write your own to be a tenth the size. Never worked in coldfusion though.

Oh, you're bringing back bad memories.... CF was great-- easier to write than PHP and faster. The Flash thing was an abortion: a CF boot took about 15 seconds, then it fired up Flex and Flash (another 2 minutes, or so). Then, all the server-client Flash data exchange was XML with about 500% overhead...

I ended up doing the job with a hidden frame with a CF page request. CF sent a delimited list of 61 variables... a simple client-side JavaScript split (one instruction) put these into an array. It was a piece of cake to refresh the 61 table entries in the visible frame (took less than 1 second, client-side), And Flash couldn't do it in 1 minute... but the Flash code was a lot bigger & used a lot more bandwidth!

.
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post #217 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I don't disagree. Though I think many are calling it a day on how things are and are pretty sure of it.

I say, let's talk in 3 years. That's a loong time in this industry, and if anyone think the other several companies with really REALLY deep pockets will continue to let apple rule the roost, they're dreaming. I can't predict what marketshare will be like, but as I said, this whole thing has only just barely, begun.

And back to this html5 vs flash thing, well, while I still don't believe it's a vs thing at all, let's remember, html5 is far from official by any means as well. It has quite a ways to go itself despite the chest thumping, So everyone yelling that flash isn't out of the gate seem to be forgetting this little tidbit as well.

I've heard the term flash killer for well over ten years...

To your last point, If Adobe were smart they would work both sides of the street... IF anyone delivers an HTML solution that is a Flash-killer-- it should be Adobe!

.
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post #218 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Oh, you're bringing back bad memories.... CF was great-- easier to write than PHP and faster. The Flash thing was an abortion: a CF boot took about 15 seconds, then it fired up Flex and Flash (another 2 minutes, or so). Then, all the server-client Flash data exchange was XML with about 500% overhead...

I ended up doing the job with a hidden frame with a CF page request. CF sent a delimited list of 61 variables... a simple client-side JavaScript split (one instruction) put these into an array. It was a piece of cake to refresh the 61 table entries in the visible frame (took less than 1 second, client-side), And Flash couldn't do it in 1 minute... but the Flash code was a lot bigger & used a lot more bandwidth!

.

hmm. a delimited list of 61 variables seems not a big thing at all really. Because php only really can do name/value pairs (or do the xml flip dance)into flash I tend to do long strings of delimited strings right into flash from the mySQL queries in php, and just write a simple quick parser to create arrays right inside flash. I've done it on some pretty high traffic sites. I tend to go for the easiest, simpler ways of doing things, they tend to result in better, more efficient code.

Flash's components particularly the first bunch were absolutely horrendous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

To your last point, If Adobe were smart they would work both sides of the street... IF anyone delivers an HTML solution that is a Flash-killer-- it should be Adobe!

.

They're totally onboard as far I know. Truthfully, absolutely every web developer I know is too, html4 is dead! All these big announcements "We see html5 as the way of the future!", really, is kinda funny really. Of course html5 is future, did they think we'd keep using html4??

html5 asaik, isn't reaching candidate status until 2012. Yet many are calling this whole thing as all wrapped up and done as of today.
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post #219 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Flash 10.1 Beta 3 is a huge improvement over Beta 2, but when you compare Beta 3 in YouTube to HTML5 in YouTube you see that they aren't even close to matching the efficiency of direct browser video playback of HTML5.

The only thing Flash still has going for it is the lack of simple fullscreen access. Jillion has a "solution" but it requires a newer WebKit nightly and holding down a key while clicking a virtual button. That is less than ideal.

Yeah, after using Click2Flash, I am not that interested in introducing Flash betas (or WebKit nightlies) into my normal operating environment... let others be the pioneers & get the arrows.

However, it is a PITA that these old eyes cannot easily get a Full screen h.264 720p playback through HTML5...

.
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post #220 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

well. welcome to apple insider.

i would suggest that perhaps, maybe, if it's not too much to ask, that you try to cut down on your usage of 'fanboi', 'his steveness', and other derogatory and inflammatory language, and you'll find that (for the most part) you can have reasonable discussions here... that said - once we reach page 5 on any discussions, the tone has likely deteriorated. better get used to it!

Winner... Best Post In this Thread!

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post #221 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I don't disagree. Though I think many are calling it a day on how things are and are pretty sure of it.

I say, let's talk in 3 years. That's a loong time in this industry, and if anyone think the other several companies with really REALLY deep pockets will continue to let apple rule the roost, they're dreaming. I can't predict what marketshare will be like, but as I said, this whole thing has only just barely, begun.

And back to this html5 vs flash thing, well, while I still don't believe it's a vs thing at all, let's remember, html5 is far from official by any means as well. It has quite a ways to go itself despite the chest thumping, So everyone yelling that flash isn't out of the gate seem to be forgetting this little tidbit as well.

I've heard the term flash killer for well over ten years...

Here, I disagree! I think we have, all-of-a-sudden, reached a point where everyone wakes up and says: "Of course! That's the way it it is supposed to be".

The battle of the techies is over... millions of users, who could care less "how"... will buy "what".

The guy who buys a minivan and demurs on the $1500 entertainment package to buy 2 iPads that do more (and pockets $500). This is happening today!

Grandma/Grandpa, who forget more than we'll ever know, now have something that does what they want it to do-- their way! This is happening today!

The salesman of anything, who really understands his products and customers... but this computer thingie comes between them and muddies the water.... Now, he can "strut his stuff" and the customer can enjoy the show. This is happening today!

The battle never was about Flash, Silverlight, OS X, Windows, CP/M, CoBOL...

It's enabling the end user, stupid! (not you in particular, but all of us).

If you want to see what enablement is all about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50L44hEtVos

.
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post #222 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That's makes no sense.

Precisely.
post #223 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

They're totally onboard as far I know. Truthfully, absolutely every web developer I know is too, html4 is dead! All these big announcements "We see html5 as the way of the future!", really, is kinda funny really. Of course html5 is future, did they think we'd keep using html4??

html5 asaik, isn't reaching candidate status until 2012. Yet many are calling this whole thing as all wrapped up and done as of today.

No, I mean more than that... Something like: "Let Adobe help you migrate your [web] technology to the latest standard" "Flash to HTML5" go to where your customers will be... be ready when they arrive!

.
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post #224 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

i'll keep that under advisement.

Sorry, when attacked, I have fangs too.

Get used to it. The root word of "AppleInsider" is "Apple": As the poster you replied to was honest enough to note, anyone who disagrees with Steve Jobs here will be attacked, and defense will not be tolerated.
post #225 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

i'll keep that under advisement.

Sorry, when attacked, I have fangs too.

Jesus H! Your very post to TenoBell was filled with smarmy comments including "...until Steve Jobs wants you to believe it..." Now you're the victim?
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post #226 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

I am all for it as long as it's standard based, and not require a plugin.

I tried to use the one on one reservation system through the latest chrome beta and it wouldn't work. Asked me to use safari 3. If this was standards based, shouldn't it run on other browsers and not just safari ?
post #227 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by p_p View Post

I tried to use the one on one reservation system through the latest chrome beta and it wouldn't work. Asked me to use safari 3. If this was standards based, shouldn't it run on other browsers and not just safari ?

That's a good question. What does Safari 3 have that the latest version of Chrome does not? Off the top of my head...

It could be as simple as Apple making an artificial limitation simply so they don't have to worry about cross browser incompatibilites, even minor ones.

Or, it could be something very specific they they've included in Safari and use because it's easier to code. Not necessarily something in the Giandula framework, which itself may be compliant.

Or, maybe Apple is planning this for the future of web development, using experimental JS functions (for example) for semi-internal testing that it may one present to gain wide adoption.

I'm sure there are many angles to look at it, but it seems clear that whatever Gainduia (the iPhone does not like that word, couldn't even select the letters in the right order) is it will have to at least work on Chrome and Firefox.
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post #228 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Get used to it. The root word of "AppleInsider" is "Apple": As the poster you replied to was honest enough to note, anyone who disagrees with Steve Jobs here will be attacked, and defense will not be tolerated.

Mmmm.... I am the poster he replied to.

My first encounter with Steve Jobs was when I was giving a demo of the Apple ][ to a group of about 20 people in my store* in Sunnyvale, CA in 1979. A voice from behind me said "You're doing it all wrong!"... and SJ came up and gave the best Apple ][ demo I ever saw! (AIR, no "Boom").

* owned with 2 partners.

Some time later, I posted publicly that "the 3 best things that ever happened to Apple were: 1) SJ founding Apple with WOZ; 2) SJ maneuvered into quitting by Sculley; 3) SJ returning to Apple."

There was a story being told by Apple management before SJ was ousted from management--

Question: "How is Apple different from The Boy Scouts Of America?"
Answer: "One of them has adult supervision!"

I also publicly stated that the true force responsible for the early success of Apple Computer was the businessman Mike Markkula, who put together a company that attracted the likes of Scottie, Gene Carter, Wil Houd, etc!

I still believe that!... and yes, you can criticize SJ and Apple on this site!

.
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post #229 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Here, I disagree! I think we have, all-of-a-sudden, reached a point where everyone wakes up and says: "Of course! That's the way it it is supposed to be".

The battle of the techies is over... millions of users, who could care less "how"... will buy "what".

The guy who buys a minivan and demurs on the $1500 entertainment package to buy 2 iPads that do more (and pockets $500). This is happening today!

Grandma/Grandpa, who forget more than we'll ever know, now have something that does what they want it to do-- their way! This is happening today!

The salesman of anything, who really understands his products and customers... but this computer thingie comes between them and muddies the water.... Now, he can "strut his stuff" and the customer can enjoy the show. This is happening today!

The battle never was about Flash, Silverlight, OS X, Windows, CP/M, CoBOL...

It's enabling the end user, stupid! (not you in particular, but all of us).

If you want to see what enablement is all about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50L44hEtVos

.

Sure, and there lies the success of apple, having risen from pretty much near obsolescence. I continue to enjoy the mac platform, but don't kid yourself, it may seem like we're the only ones on the block and rah rah we're victorious, windows still owns 90% and even though their mobile platform sucked so hard it wasn't funny, they still managed to have decent numbers. I attended the last major mobile developers conference about almost a year ago. apple wasn't even there, the excitement was at apple, blackberry, nokia and google. The poor guy at the microsoft table wasn't getting any love at all.

However, a look at the recent growth numbers, shows 2 platforms growing currently. iphone, and android. Guess which is growing fastest? nope, Android. Yes indeed, I will tell you this is FAR from over, and calling this at this stage of the game, is very short sighted, trust me. I can guarantee you, Mr. Jobs isn't considering this a done deal by any means at all. I bet he sees this, as very much emerging. Didn't apple have the wind in it's sails, and a vastly superior platform the last time? I recall many mac users telling me then, it was over. I'd say, that's a mistake not to make again.

The major players will be apple, google, nokia, and microsoft. My opinion. I think act II is on it's way... I really do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

No, I mean more than that... Something like: "Let Adobe help you migrate your [web] technology to the latest standard" "Flash to HTML5" go to where your customers will be... be ready when they arrive!
.

It isn't the latest "standard" though. It's "proposed". As I said, it won't reach candidate status until 2012.I know flash haters are desperate to have this a standard NOW and come on baby let's soot us some flash guys!, but back to the reality of things... I don't know why people aren't wise to this. Yes general features we surmise will be a part of the official standard years down the road are being utilized, and supported, but let's face it we're all tired of html4, ajax etc., we want the next level, NOW. The next couple years, -will- be about technologies becoming standards , and in the case of flash, finding if it can still remain relevant in the new spaces. I still say, calling things now, is far, far too early.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Jesus H! Your very post to TenoBell was filled with smarmy comments including "...until Steve Jobs wants you to believe it..." Now you're the victim?

Well it's true. Any developer I have spoken to, all agree Steve Job's comments were not wholly accurate. I suppose it depends on where you sit on how you personally want things to play out. I openly admit, I like flash, have developed in it for well over 10 years (since flash 3), and would be sad to see a great development platform go down because it wasn't kept current enough. I don't have any control over adobe, I nearly gave up a year ago after watching them sit on their hands, but after what I've seen at recent conferences, I have reason to believe they may be, very much still in the game. I think if you hate flash though, that's not what you want to hear.

But I can post links, share what I see firsthand and what I know as a developer all I like, but it won't make a lick of difference if all I'm faced with are outdated links, links to tablets trying to play an outdated desktop version of flash, and a barrage of half truths no one has the energy to try and dispel.

There is no doubt apple will play a serious role in the emerging platforms, but I think it's too early to call as I said. There are seriously deep pockets that want in the new platforms, and aren't about to concede to apple by any means, and SJ knows it. However, SJ will only be around for so long, unfortunately, and as well are aware of, any of these companies need a strong visionary to keep the pace. Have a look at what's transpired over at microsoft with monkey boy at the helm...
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post #230 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Some time later, I posted publicly that "the 3 best things that ever happened to Apple were: 1) SJ founding Apple with WOZ; 2) SJ maneuvered into quitting by Sculley; 3) SJ returning to Apple."

You forgot #4: the promotion of Jonathan Ive to VP in charge of the designs that powered Apple's comeback:

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=3000947
post #231 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I say, let's talk in 3 years. That's a loong time in this industry, and if anyone think the other several companies with really REALLY deep pockets will continue to let apple rule the roost, they're dreaming.

I don't think anyone's going to LET Apple continue to grow - any more than Sony or other MP3 manufacturers LET Apple dominate the MP3 market.

Apple has created a solid niche for itself by building an ecosystem built around ease of use. No one LET them do that. Until others learn from Apple, they don't have a chance of taking that away. All the initial tablet offerings ("but ours will have a full version of Windows 7, 6 USB ports, 3 media card slots, and a parallel and serial port") indicated that they haven't learned (although the cancellation of Courier and the HP slate indicates that MAYBE they're listening).

It has nothing to do with how deep your pockets are. Palm had very deep pockets at one point. MIcrosoft has incredibly deep pockets, but just dropped Courier. Deep pockets don't matter - vision does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

despite some impressive statements, which is great, but let's face reality again.

macs are still under 10%, iphones are still only at 16%.

I love the way uninformed people throw percentages around without understanding them.

10% of WHAT?
Apple sells about 90% of all premium (over $1 K) PCs.
Apple has about 35% of the ENTIRE PC INDUSTRY's profits.

They don't sell disposable, junkware $299 PCs, but as a shareholder and customer, I don't want them to.

iPhones are 16% of WHAT?
They account for 50-70% of ALL mobile internet access.
By one account, they account for 99% of all mobile application purchases (although I don't believe that figure, they undoubtedly account for the majority).

Then there's their mind share. You can pretty well predict what the rest of the industry will be emphasizing in 2 years by looking at what Apple sells today.

The point is that Apple isn't in the 'our market share is greater than yours' game. They are building niche, high quality, consumer-oriented products for discerning customers. Simply throwing out a market share figure is completely irrelevant.
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post #232 of 274
You are only looking at it from unit sales. Which are important, but not the only metric. If you are a web developer or app developer. You are going to be looking at which device is going to get the most hits on your web site or which device is going to get your app downloaded the most. For that the iPhone beats all the rest combined by a country mile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

despite some impressive statements, which is great, but let's face reality again.

macs are still under 10%, iphones are still only at 16%.

rim, google, nokia, win, combined, still whacks iphone's share by a country mile.

Disclaimer:
Now let's not get excited. I'm merely stating some balance here. I like my macs and have 2 iphones.
post #233 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I don't think anyone's going to LET Apple continue to grow - any more than Sony or other MP3 manufacturers LET Apple dominate the MP3 market.

Apple has created a solid niche for itself by building an ecosystem built around ease of use. No one LET them do that. Until others learn from Apple, they don't have a chance of taking that away. All the initial tablet offerings ("but ours will have a full version of Windows 7, 6 USB ports, 3 media card slots, and a parallel and serial port") indicated that they haven't learned (although the cancellation of Courier and the HP slate indicates that MAYBE they're listening).

It has nothing to do with how deep your pockets are. Palm had very deep pockets at one point. MIcrosoft has incredibly deep pockets, but just dropped Courier. Deep pockets don't matter - vision does.

I don't disagree. Money is simply, the admission price to the challenge. Apple clearly, as evidenced by the number of macs I personally own (I'm pre ordering the ipad this morning since it's finally available in Canuckistan), got things right, microsoft is currently playing catchup in the desktop space. Never mind mobile...

I love the way uninformed people throw percentages around without understanding them.

10% of WHAT?
Apple sells about 90% of all premium (over $1 K) PCs.
Apple has about 35% of the ENTIRE PC INDUSTRY's profits.

They don't sell disposable, junkware $299 PCs, but as a shareholder and customer, I don't want them to.

iPhones are 16% of WHAT?
They account for 50-70% of ALL mobile internet access.
By one account, they account for 99% of all mobile application purchases (although I don't believe that figure, they undoubtedly account for the majority).

Then there's their mind share. You can pretty well predict what the rest of the industry will be emphasizing in 2 years by looking at what Apple sells today.

The point is that Apple isn't in the 'our market share is greater than yours' game. They are building niche, high quality, consumer-oriented products for discerning customers. Simply throwing out a market share figure is completely irrelevant.

ok. What's not to understand here. You throw uninformed at me, then proceed to throw a whole bunch of numbers, which have pretty much zero meaning to a developer targeting, an audience.

How exactly, does the fact that a large number of people spend more dollars, affect real hard number of bodies you reach with your online whatever. (website/ad campaign etc).

Look here: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp You will see that someone developing something online, almost 93% are NOT macs, despite all that premium we are king stats.

And 16%, is 16% of the smartphone marketshare currently. Meaning, 84%, are NOT iphones. Nokia leads with almost 40% globally, followed by rim, at nearly 20%. And watch google, because they doubled last year, and are considered to have the highest growth rate currently. Even microsoft

So I very much know what I'm talking about, and am quite informed thanks. There are some stats there that clearly show, advertisers only targeting apple devices currently, are really selling themselves short. I suspect this will become more apparent as the other platforms mature and have learned from apple's success.
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post #234 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You are only looking at it from unit sales. Which are important, but not the only metric. If you are a web developer or app developer. You are going to be looking at which device is going to get the most hits on your web site or which device is going to get your app downloaded the most. For that the iPhone beats all the rest combined by a country mile.

you are talking about apps. I wasn't talking about targeting users with apps.

I'm talking about targeting the most users with a website, or ad campaign. Apps, are but one method of delivery, albeit a good one.

Make no mistake, before my statements once again get twisted and spit back out to mean what I never said, and I'm called a liar again...

I am not suggesting apple isn;t a huge market to target. Of course they are. But to put things into perspective, they are by far not the only game in town. Though, they are currently, likely the most organized as a platform, which makes it more attractive, not based on it's numbers alone.
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post #235 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

ok. What's not to understand here. You throw uninformed at me, then proceed to throw a whole bunch of numbers, which have pretty much zero meaning to a developer targeting, an audience.

How exactly, does the fact that a large number of people spend more dollars, affect real hard number of bodies you reach with your online whatever. (website/ad campaign etc).

Look here: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp You will see that someone developing something online, almost 93% are NOT macs, despite all that premium we are king stats.

And 16%, is 16% of the smartphone marketshare currently. Meaning, 84%, are NOT iphones. Nokia leads with almost 40% globally, followed by rim, at nearly 20%. And watch google, because they doubled last year, and are considered to have the highest growth rate currently. Even microsoft

So I very much know what I'm talking about, and am quite informed thanks. There are some stats there that clearly show, advertisers only targeting apple devices currently, are really selling themselves short. I suspect this will become more apparent as the other platforms mature and have learned from apple's success.

That's a great idea of why your posts are worthless. You're confusing desktop sales with mobile sales. No one is suggesting that Flash is going to disappear from Mac desktops. The issue is mobile devices. If you want to look at whether Flash is important on mobile devices, you look at the amount of Internet access FROM MOBILE DEVICES, not desktops.

Apple has something like 75% of ALL MOBILE INTERNET ACCESS according to the most recent reports. Ignoring that would be insane.
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post #236 of 274
my posts are "worthless". Well. According to you anyway.

And,you need to learn to stop just googling for numbers or links that imply or appear to support your position.

Iphones, do NOT have 75% of ALL MOBILE INTERNET ACCESS.

That, is a bald faced lie.

Currently, we are aware that iphones, account for just over 50% of internet requests.

I know Americans feel they're the only country in the world, but, there -is- a world market out there too.


Now again, before you get too too excited, nowhere did I say the iphone wasn't a huge market not to be very much taken seriously in an ad campaign strategy.

Here. a present for you. http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/25/adm...phone-traffic/

That's some worldwide numbers for you. Note androids growth in the past year. Also note, that only targeting iphone users, cuts out pretty half your audience.
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post #237 of 274
I'm talking about mobile websites and apps.

No one cares much about Nokia, Symibian is a totally unfocused mess right now.

RIM's development platform is not that great and its browser completely sucks. But its making strides on improvement.

Palm has a great OS and a great development platform that is largely ignored. Hopefully HP will take advantage of its potential.

Android has the most potential to compete with the iPhone OS. Androids biggest strength and weakness is that its open source. Which is making it a fragmented platform with different phones that have different functionality and different versions of the OS.

Despite the fact that people complain about Apple's control of the iPhone. This control gives the iPhone platform a clarity, organization, and purpose that none of the others have. And is why the platform is so successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I am not suggesting apple isn;t a huge market to target. Of course they are. But to put things into perspective, they are by far not the only game in town. Though, they are currently, likely the most organized as a platform, which makes it more attractive, not based on it's numbers alone.
post #238 of 274
You are right not the iPhone by itself. But when you include the iPod Touch, mobile safari does hold about 65% of the mobile web market share. Now with the iPad, by quarter 3 of the year mobile safari will likely hold about 75%.

I think whats most important about your link is how fast mobile internet access in general is growing. Its now 48% of all worldwide traffic. Mobile device sales are growing twice as fast as PC sales. And guess what rules mobile devices? HTML5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

Iphones, do NOT have 75% of ALL MOBILE INTERNET ACCESS.

That, is a bald faced lie.
post #239 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I'm talking about mobile websites and apps.

No one cares much about Nokia, Symibian is a totally unfocused mess right now.

RIM's development platform is not that great and its browser completely sucks. But its making strides on improvement.

Palm has a great OS and a great development platform that is largely ignored. Hopefully HP will take advantage of its potential.

Android has the most potential to compete with the iPhone OS. Androids biggest strength and weakness is that its open source. Which is making it a fragmented platform with different phones that have different functionality and different versions of the OS.

Despite the fact that people complain about Apple's control of the iPhone. This control gives the iPhone platform a clarity, organization, and purpose that none of the others have. And is why the platform is so successful.

Well that's a rather narrow view isn't it? One can take any sampling, set of numbers, and spin anyway they like.

Oh, only mobile sites, and apps! Like that isn't skewing things just a wee bit now isn't it. Why don't you go a step further, and say only apps! Then you can screech 100%!! We are the champions!

And then you go off calling my posts "worthless".
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post #240 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You are right not the iPhone by itself. But when you include the iPod Touch, mobile safari does hold about 65% of the mobile web market share. Now with the iPad, by quarter 3 of the year mobile safari will likely hole about 75%.

that still doesn't tell me there are more iphone users specifically to target, just that iphone users surf more. Certainly a valuable stat, (I seem to need to disclaimer anything that may be taken somewhat negative...) There are still, only one pair of eyes on that screen
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