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Apple developing Flash alternative named Gianduia - Page 2

post #41 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It has everything to do with Flash (and Silverlight).

Not really He's right and this is a very frustrating articles for several reasons. First the headline implies that Apple is developing some kind of Flash alternative. This has nothing to do with Flash and isn't being developed for market. As the article states, this was shown almost a year ago. Gianduia is just the codename of one of the five or so internal JavaScript frameworks that Apple has created to support some of the applications they're building. Apple employs Cocoa developers, so it advantageous for them to have web frameworks that mimic Cocoa frameworks.

This is in the same class as Cappuccino and SproutCore and I've never heard of them being billed as Flash replacements. They're for building better Gmail-like apps, which Flash has never really played a big part in.

Quote:
Between WebKit-based browsers have a monopoly on mobile browsers and Firefox's market-share on the desktop I think that WebGL will have enough marketshare to be useful for those wanting to include animations.

WebGL (based on OpenGL ES) is a very deep API and I don't expect most web developers will pick it up any time soon. It's not really suited to just including a few animations on a page but rather providing a full shader-based, graphics programming pipeline. It'll be helpful for doing things like scientific visualizations or certain kinds of games. For the kinds of animations Flash is mostly used for, most benchmarks show that Canvas+JavaScript is more than performant. And it'll only get faster.

Anyway, my point is that AI is trying to position this as some kind of Flash alternative possibly desktop tool people can use to create Flash-like content and that may be released later this year. It's not it's a rich application JavaScript framework they've used internally and might possibly be open sourced for others to use like SproutCore. Programming essentially in Objective-C patterns with Cocoa-like API's while writing JavaScript is not going to appeal to the Flash programming crowd.
post #42 of 274
Suddenly Steve's insane attacks on Adobe begin to make sense: he wasn't concerned about Flash at all, other than as a competitor to his new product.
post #43 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Suddenly Steve's insane attacks on Adobe begin to make sense: he wasn't concerned about Flash at all, other than as a competitor to his new product.

Really??

So what he (and many others) have said (and been saying for a long time) about Flash makes no sense to you?
Just no clue what the hell the guy was talkin' about?
But NOW you think you get it?
Insightful.
post #44 of 274
iPad + chlamydia

It could be worse I guess. At least there are no viruses.
post #45 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Apple comes out with a professional version of iWeb for us web designers that hate code.

My DREAM exactly!!! I 110% agree!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

I'd like to see Apple make a Dreamweaver like HTML5 development program. It would make a nice addition to their pro apps suite.

Apple, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE make one! I 2,00000000000% agree!!!! The only Q I have, will it be possible to support multiple sites, like in Dreamweaver!? I want this badly!

Is there a Petition somewhere to Sign?! A Total WYSIWYG Orgy!!! Crazy Fast, stable! One 2 One Training = real support, not a $$$ gouging ala Adobe!!!!

Only thing, I hope that it's not to be tied into Mobile Me for Hosting! I like GoDaddy, cause it has 24/7 Live Phone Support! Great! Lucky for me, I only used it a few times, but it's very comforting to know that someone's there, vs. NOBODY at Mobile Me, except the Text Chat! But, what if one's Mac is having a bad day, or the connection is interrupted, one looses the Chat, and the whole thing has to start again! Even if they preserve the Comments from the previous Chat/Case ##, it's not as good as a Live Human!

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

While I'd like this, I think Adobe is in a much better position to do this. They could even further their sales of Flash Professional by having it output standards-based HTML/JS/CSS for newer browsers and Flash as a fallback for older browsers. After all, they make their money on the pro app sales, not the free plug-in.

If Apple makes a Dreamweaver Replacement, I'll be there in a heart beat, buying it! Only thing, I made my site with Dreamweaver 8, Templates and all.... I hope there would be a way of Apple's Dreamweaver Replacement to Import that Site, and Convert it, as needed to HTML 5, so one doesn't have to make the new one from scratch..., or Copy and Paste, one page at a Time! I just checked one of my pages, made with Dreamweaver 8, and in Code View it says:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">


I am so glad you guys brought this topic up! As I am about to get a New MBP 17, I don't know if I'd be able to Install and run Dreamweaver 8 on whatever the latest Snow Leopard will come with my New MBP, 10.6.4? I hope DW8 will install and run OK, as per a few posts I've seen online, but I won't know for sure, until I try to do that! I just want to avoid getting the latest Dreamweaver for $500 (?), knowing that I'd rather use Apple's Answer to that!!!

Flash is SLOW on my PB G4, 1.67, 1GB RAM, 10.4.11.... - YouTube is choppy, Vimeo is worse! TweetDeck (made with Adobe Air) - SLOW, and not stable!

I am glad that Steve Jobs has finally declared ••• ENOUGH!!! ••• in his Thoughts on Flash!!!!

My New MBP 17' will have i7 CPU in it, so it'll probably mask/compensate for Flash faults, but, I'd rather that CPU not "sweat it", and use its muscle on other stuff!!!

Thank you guys again for bring up this iWeb Pro, or whatever the Name Apple will pick!!! Then, imagine them Fully Integrating it with the rest of iLife etc!, so that it flies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Speed, Stability! A Total WYSIWYG Orgy!!!

Go  Apple!!!

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Go  Apple!!!

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post #46 of 274
Gianduia sounds like a disease. Not good.
post #47 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

Really??

So what he (and many others) have said (and been saying for a long time) about Flash makes no sense to you?
Just no clue what the hell the guy was talkin' about?
But NOW you think you get it?
Insightful.

Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....
post #48 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post

Apple, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE make one! I 2,00000000000% agree!!!! The only Q I have, will it be possible to support multiple sites, like in Dreamweaver!? I want this badly!

If you are talking about iWeb here, it is very simple to make it work with multiple sites already.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #49 of 274
Although I think that all sounds lovely, Gianduia won't be a competitor with Flash until/unless it:

1. Has a name you can't misread (as Glandula)!

2. Has a name you can't mispronounce (I think it should be pronounced as if spelled Janduya)

3. Has at least one popular development environment which is firmly graphics (animation) first.

4. Does not rely on WebObjects (I realise that it's all ultimately CGI in interface, but it should support ad-hoc server-side Java, PHP, or whatever else).

Given all of the above, it's pretty clear that it is not (at this time) being positioned as a Flash replacement, but rather offering an alternative for existing Apple customers who have businesslike uses for Flash.
post #50 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It has everything to do with Flash (and Silverlight). If these rich web interaction can be handled by efficient and easily coded JS then there is no need for Flash (or Silverlight) for that same task. It doesn't have to do EVERYTHING Flash can do to pick away at it's usage and become prominent. Just look at the number of sites moving to HTML5 for video over Flash, and that is the start.

Agreed, there are many places where Flash is used where it isn't needed; a news paper was whining because it uses Flash for slide show of pictures - something that could easily be done with the existing standards or using a decent CMS system with the code already provided. I've seen very few cases where Flash is absolutely needed - very few cases indeed. I can only hope that maybe the HTML5 exporting functionality by Flash CS5 is going to be extensively used in the future.
post #51 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Apple comes out with a professional version of iWeb for us web designers that hate code.

Nice contradiction. What's next? Coders that don't code but moving modules around? That is why most of the web looks like sh*te; there are a sh*tload of wannabe webdesigners who just should not let to have computers.
post #52 of 274
I read it as Glandula. I figured they'd missed out the 'r' on the end.

Embrace the fever of GlandularCocoa.
post #53 of 274
You cannot make web games with Html5.

HTML5 VS Flash may be a discussion in app-land, in games-land the whole discussion doesn't make any sense.
post #54 of 274
You can damn well make web games in Ajax instead of flash. Fully HTML5 compliant.
post #55 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....

Total BS. Let's just take one of them. Apple stated that there is no full version of Flash available that will run on the iPhone.

You're saying that argument has been 'torn asunder'. So where is the version of Flash that runs on the iPhone? After all, there are jailbroken iPhones that should run it if it's available. Or other mobile phones, for that matter. So where is it?

The rest of Steve's arguments haven't been debunked, either.

Your name is only half right. You need work on the rationality part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Absolutely, there is a lot of hubris to get past, and surprised I forgot to include that as a reason why they won't do it until it's too late. My point was that between Flash Professional and Dreamweaver they are in the best position to offer a great solution.

Agreed. If Adobe had been working on this with 1/2 the energy they spend attacking Apple over the Flash issue, it would already be on the market.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #56 of 274
Frameworks are great and everything, but please make an open source authoring tool for designers. Not every designer can write object oriented code.
post #57 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by emulator View Post

Nice contradiction. What's next? Coders that don't code but moving modules around? That is why most of the web looks like sh*te; there are a sh*tload of wannabe webdesigners who just should not let to have computers.

I agree. Efficient coding is mandatory for a good website. Dreamweaver is a great program but I spend more time in code view than design view, as it should be. That is why there are professionals. You can write HTML5 compliant code (as far as it goes for a not completely adopted standard) in Dreamweaver all day long.
post #58 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Total BS. Let's just take one of them. Apple stated that there is no full version of Flash available that will run on the iPhone.

You're saying that argument has been 'torn asunder'. So where is the version of Flash that runs on the iPhone?

It's forbidden, and running software of your own choice in an iPhone is defined by Apple's legal agreement as a criminal act.

Flash CS5 shipped two business days after Steve Steved it, so if you were in earnest about wanting to see it you could. There are videos of it running on Android floating around too - Google is your friend.

Now here's one for you: Were you aware that the Finder wasn't rewritten to use Cocoa until just this last version, Snow Leopard, and that Final Cut Pro has taken even longer to become, what Steve says, is "modern"?

Apple doesn't eat their own dogfood.
post #59 of 274
Hmmm...really?

Google Shows How HTML5 Can Run Quake In The Browser



Quote:
Originally Posted by dacloo View Post

You cannot make web games with Html5.

HTML5 VS Flash may be a discussion in app-land, in games-land the whole discussion doesn't make any sense.
post #60 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synotic View Post

Not really He's right and this is a very frustrating articles for several reasons. First the headline implies that Apple is developing some kind of Flash alternative. This has nothing to do with Flash and isn't being developed for market. As the article states, this was shown almost a year ago. Gianduia is just the codename of one of the five or so internal JavaScript frameworks that Apple has created to support some of the applications they're building. Apple employs Cocoa developers, so it advantageous for them to have web frameworks that mimic Cocoa frameworks.

You are making an assumption that Apple will not release this into the market. Apple was using Cocoa Touch for iPhone apps before they released it for third party development. Its more likely Apple showed off Gianduia last year to show what they are working on. But it wasn't ready yet.

Quote:
This is in the same class as Cappuccino and SproutCore and I've never heard of them being billed as Flash replacements. They're for building better Gmail-like apps, which Flash has never really played a big part in.

Their intent is to replace Flash with HTML5. That is the point.

Quote:
WebGL (based on OpenGL ES) is a very deep API and I don't expect most web developers will pick it up any time soon. It's not really suited to just including a few animations on a page but rather providing a full shader-based, graphics programming pipeline. It'll be helpful for doing things like scientific visualizations or certain kinds of games. For the kinds of animations Flash is mostly used for, most benchmarks show that Canvas+JavaScript is more than performant. And it'll only get faster.

The point of these frameworks such as Gianduia and Sproutcore is to shorten the learning curve and make it easier to use these tools.

Quote:
Anyway, my point is that AI is trying to position this as some kind of Flash alternative possibly desktop tool people can use to create Flash-like content and that may be released later this year. It's not it's a rich application JavaScript framework they've used internally and might possibly be open sourced for others to use like SproutCore. Programming essentially in Objective-C patterns with Cocoa-like API's while writing JavaScript is not going to appeal to the Flash programming crowd.


Yes I see your logic. Why would Apple develop an alternative development HTML5 framework to Flash? When Apple has clearly and loudly pronounced that it will not support Flash and wants HTML5 to replace it. With that understanding it makes no sense for them to create development tools that help make it easier to create HTML5 web applications.
post #61 of 274
I think you should be able to appreciate the difficulty in rewriting whole sections of the OS. Especially when MS has to ship two entirely different Windows for 32bit and 64bit. Apple has built both in the same OS.

Final Cut Pro hooks directly into OS API's. Apple had to move all of these elements to Cocoa and 64 bit together. Its more complicated than you make it sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Now here's one for you: Were you aware that the Finder wasn't rewritten to use Cocoa until just this last version, Snow Leopard, and that Final Cut Pro has taken even longer to become, what Steve says, is "modern"?

Apple doesn't eat their own dogfood.
post #62 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post


Flash is SLOW on my PB G4, 1.67, 1GB RAM, 10.4.11.... - YouTube is choppy, Vimeo is worse!

They all run smoothly on my kid's Dell Netbook.
post #63 of 274
terrible terrible name.
should be called Mocha - bring java back to its roots
post #64 of 274
Hey, I know, lets rewrite the entirety of Cocoa in Javascript instead of just adding one feature: the ability to type a URL in to Finder and it automatically downloads and runs a native app in a sandbox.
post #65 of 274
That game was created to show the power of hml5 (impressive btw!) but that does not make it a great solution for game developers.

Unity and Flash are simply much better for games. HTML never was ment to be used for games. Hence the name HTML.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Hmmm...really?

Google Shows How HTML5 Can Run Quake In The Browser
post #66 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacloo View Post

You cannot make web games with Html5.

HTML5 VS Flash may be a discussion in app-land, in games-land the whole discussion doesn't make any sense.

Depends on the game. Watch the Toy Story demo. It's possible to make games that work without Flash. Not to mention the 50,000 or so games on the AppStore that don't use Flash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

It's forbidden, and running software of your own choice in an iPhone is defined by Apple's legal agreement as a criminal act.

That is, of course, nonsense.

Adobe even admits that they don't have a version that runs on the iPhone. Their minimum hardware requirements are 800 MHz A8 - and there's no guarantee that even that will work well.

Not to mention, of course, that Apple has no say what runs on Symbian or WebOS or Windows Mobile. So if Adobe is capable of coding a full version of flash for mobile devices, why is it that it's not available on ANY platform? If it were so good, wouldn't those other OS vendors want to offer it since you claim it's so critical?

Once again, your name is only half right - you are about as IRrational as it's possible to be.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #67 of 274
Can you really say that will always be true?

Pretty much every major web platform developer in the computer industry has a hand in HTML5 at this point. This is a vastly larger pool of talent contributing to it than Unity or Flash has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacloo View Post

That game was created to show the power of hml5 (impressive btw!) but that does not make it a great solution for game developers.

Unity and Flash are simply much better for games. HTML never was ment to be used for games. Hence the name HTML.
post #68 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

They all run smoothly on my kid's Dell Netbook.

Maybe but the poor kids has to suffer Windows as well as anti-virus software, ant-malware and all the rest of the crap that goes with it. How can you do that to the poor kid?
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post #69 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by desarc View Post

terrible terrible name.
should be called Mocha - bring java back to its roots

How about Nescafé?
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #70 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

They all run smoothly on my kid's Dell Netbook.

Which is one of the points of Steve Jobs' letter.
post #71 of 274
So the truth comes out. The REAL reason Steve Jobs has been bashing Flash. He knew they had an alternative in the works.

The REAL reason Apple never worked with Adobe to get flash working great in OSX just as Microsoft did for Windows.

The REAL reason Steve Jobs spreads misinformation and lies about Flash.



And you all gobble it up with open cheeks.
post #72 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Can you really say that will always be true?

Pretty much every major web platform developer in the computer industry has a hand in HTML5 at this point. This is a vastly larger pool of talent contributing to it than Unity or Flash has.

The problem with this line of thinking, is that you assume that HTML5 will be constantly innovated on, and improving as flash stands still. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I comment as someone who develops in actionscript, css/php/javascript etc for a living. I'll openly admit to liking the flash platform, it's a great platform to develop in, just as the new html5 thing is. I use what makes sense, and it's important not to use a tool gratuitously. I wish more developers would do that. But, I can find just as many horrible css sites as flash, the tool, doesn't make a bad designer/developer...

It seems many, mostly those who don't understand the full storey, try to make this as a html5 vs flash issue. It just isn't. It never was, until Steve Jobs, wants you to believe it is.

HTML5 cannot accomplish everything flash can, far from it. However, what it does do, is finally, bring capabilities to html that should have been long ago, and often we had to leverage flash in tricks and hacks, that we never liked in the first place to accomplish. HTML5 will enable me to do some of the everyday simpler animation, etc. type stuff that I really prefer not to open flash for, and leave the heavy lifting stuff to flash. I've seen some of the html5 animation/game stuff, and really, are we THAT excited that we can do stuff we could do in flash years ago?

Come on. Flash is innovating at an accelerated pace. This whole hooferah has accomplished some real good in my opinion, adobe has indeed been lazy. Now I'm seeing a new player (I've seen in operation) that will run great on mobile phones, major improvements to the platform, and likely will continue to have a fire under their arse to keep improving it. I fully understand why flash is not on the iphone currently.

win win for everyone in my estimation. I'm looking forward to many great new tools, capabilities, in BOTH HTML and flash. When someone starts limiting options, that -isn't- a good thing, for anyone.

As for the flash haters, well, all those annoying ads, etc etc., ain't gonna go away. It isn't the tool that causes them, and should flash actually go down, their will be another tool that will annoy you, even further.
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post #73 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Absolutely, there is a lot of hubris to get past, and surprised I forgot to include that as a reason why they won't do it until it's too late. My point was that between Flash Professional and Dreamweaver they are in the best position to offer a great solution.

I don't now... Flash already exports as quicktime and animated gif so it might not be too hard to imagine HTML5 however Adobe might prefer to make it part of Dreamweaver instead.

I think the main problem with the whole notion that there will soon be a GUI based HTML5 animation tool is dependent on someone being able to figure out how to do it. These frameworks that we have an ever increasing selection of just don't lend themselves to the easy drag and drop timeline event, layers, vectors model that is Flash.

It is going to take a completely different approach to produce a designer friendly tool. Programmers don't really mind having to code and debug hundreds of lines of code to get a desired result but in order for a designer to make money with it, it needs to be a lot more like a rapid application development environment similar to flash.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #74 of 274
I don't see in where I said Flash is standing still. Of course Adobe is continuing to improve it.

My point is that Adobe does not have the resources to compete with the entire talent pool that is working on HTML5.

It would be Adobe against the entire W3C, Google, Apple, Webkit, Palm, Microsoft, even Adobe itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

The problem with this line of thinking, is that you assume that HTML5 will be constantly innovated on, and improving as flash stands still. Nothing could be further from the truth.
post #75 of 274
You are saying this isn't possible while its already being done.

This is the whole purpose of Sproutcore

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I think the main problem with the whole notion that there will soon be a GUI based HTML5 animation tool is dependent on someone being able to figure out how to do it. These frameworks that we have an ever increasing selection of just don't lend themselves to the easy drag and drop timeline event, layers, vectors model that is Flash.

It is going to take a completely different approach to produce a designer friendly tool. Programmers don't really mind having to code and debug hundreds of lines of code to get a desired result but in order for a designer to make money with it, it needs to be a lot more like a rapid application development environment similar to flash.
post #76 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I don't see in where I said Flash is standing still. Of course Adobe is continuing to improve it.

My point is that Adobe does not have the resources to compete with the entire talent pool that is working on HTML5.

It would be Adobe against the entire W3C, Google, Apple, Webkit, Palm, Microsoft, even Adobe itself.

ok, there needs to be some sanity here.

First of all, adobe is very much a part of that talent pool working on HTML5. They, and it's customers are all just as excited in the development and the release of HTML5. So it is NOT Adobe against the rest. VERY, far from it.

Second, in the past decade, flash developers have not had any problems with resources to bring their platform to the level it is now. Why is it suddenly so different all of a sudden? Because Steve Jobs says so?
Not likely.

No, the survival of flash, will rest on adobe's ability to innovate, and deliver on a great player and user experience on both the desktop and mobile platforms. I've seen the beta, it's very promising. We'll see how this plays out.

But this html5 vs flash, absolute pap for the masses to swallow truthfully.
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post #77 of 274
Yeah, they really need to change the name of this, if it's true. It sounds like an STD.
post #78 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

ok, there needs to be some sanity here.

First of all, adobe is very much a part of that talent pool working on HTML5. They, and it's customers are all just as excited in the development and the release of HTML5. So it is NOT Adobe against the rest. VERY, far from it.

Are you even reading what I'm writing. In my list of companies that are supporting HTML5, I said "even Adobe itself".

Quote:
Second, in the past decade, flash developers have not had any problems with resources to bring their platform to the level it is now. Why is it suddenly so different all of a sudden? Because Steve Jobs says so?
Not likely.

Its different because things are changing. Steve Jobs focus is not on Flash itself, Jobs focus is on how everything is changing and Flash does not suit the new environment.

Flash worked perfectly fine as long as most of the computer industry was using desktops with ample system resources and plugged into unlimited power supplies.

The industry is shifting to mobile devices that have extremely limited system resources and extremely limited power supplies. These devices require lightweight and energy efficient software. Flash ain't it.

Quote:
No, the survival of flash, will rest on adobe's ability to innovate, and deliver on a great player and user experience on both the desktop and mobile platforms. I've seen the beta, it's very promising. We'll see how this plays out.

  • Seeing as every mobile platform does or soon will fully support HTML5 and no phone currently fully run Flash.
  • Every major website is developing a "Flashless" version with pure H.264 video delivery.
  • Adobe keeps pushing back Flash for the mobile device.
  • We are seeing how it plays out.
post #79 of 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

ok, there needs to be some sanity here.

First of all, Adobe is very much a part of that talent pool working on HTML5. They, and it's customers are all just as excited in the development and the release of HTML5. So it is NOT Adobe against the rest. VERY, far from it. ...

If we are talking about truth, then it needs to be pointed out that you are spinning it fairly hard here.

Yes, it's technically true that Adobe is part of the team working very hard on HTML5, but you fail to mention that they are at the same time, working to push the HTML5 group away from using or developing the "Canvas" element which is the part of HTML5 that would basically replace Flash animations on the web.

"Adobe is working hard on making sure that Flash animations don't get replaced by HTML5's Canvas element." (and thus make the Flash plugin obsolete), would be the closest to a true and accurate statement.
post #80 of 274
Pretty much everything you wrote was nonsense, but this ...

Quote:
And you all gobble it up with open cheeks.

.. is a hilariously crazy turn of phrase.

Never heard anyone say that before! I'm going to steal it and use it at parties to break people up.
thanks!
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