Apple developing Flash alternative named Gianduia - Page 3

Originally Posted by tonton

Gianduia sounds like a disease. Not good.

Originally Posted by TenoBell

You are saying this isn't possible while its already being done.

This is the whole purpose of Sproutcore

Originally Posted by ksec

The question that no one has answered is why Apple sponsored two Javascript Development framework? SproutCore and Gianduia both seems to offer the same thing.

Originally Posted by mstone

I don't now... Flash already exports as quicktime and animated gif so it might not be too hard to imagine HTML5 however Adobe might prefer to make it part of Dreamweaver instead.

I think the main problem with the whole notion that there will soon be a GUI based HTML5 animation tool is dependent on someone being able to figure out how to do it. These frameworks that we have an ever increasing selection of just don't lend themselves to the easy drag and drop timeline event, layers, vectors model that is Flash.

It is going to take a completely different approach to produce a designer friendly tool. Programmers don't really mind having to code and debug hundreds of lines of code to get a desired result but in order for a designer to make money with it, it needs to be a lot more like a rapid application development environment similar to flash.

Originally Posted by DCJ001

One of the words in your giant signature is misspelled - Seriously.

And correcting your error won't make it any better.

Originally Posted by RationalTroll

Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....

Originally Posted by battiato1981

Gianduia ... rhymes with 'what's it to'ya'

Love the food combo - hazelnut and dark chocolate. Very popular in Torino, where they lay a local claim to it. Combine with cappuccino and java (a bit redundant) and you've got yourself a serious food high.

Originally Posted by Kolchak

I suggest they change the name to Giada. Hubba hubba! Who's with me?

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Are you even reading what I'm writing. In my list of companies that are supporting HTML5, I said "even Adobe itself".



Its different because things are changing. Steve Jobs focus is not on Flash itself, Jobs focus is on how everything is changing and Flash does not suit the new environment.

Flash worked perfectly fine as long as most of the computer industry was using desktops with ample system resources and plugged into unlimited power supplies.

The industry is shifting to mobile devices that have extremely limited system resources and extremely limited power supplies. These devices require lightweight and energy efficient software. Flash ain't it.

• Seeing as every mobile platform does or soon will fully support HTML5 and no phone currently fully run Flash.
• Every major website is developing a "Flashless" version with pure H.264 video delivery.
• Adobe keeps pushing back Flash for the mobile device.
• We are seeing how it plays out.

Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody

If we are talking about truth, then it needs to be pointed out that you are spinning it fairly hard here.

Yes, it's technically true that Adobe is part of the team working very hard on HTML5, but you fail to mention that they are at the same time, working to push the HTML5 group away from using or developing the "Canvas" element which is the part of HTML5 that would basically replace Flash animations on the web.

"Adobe is working hard on making sure that Flash animations don't get replaced by HTML5's Canvas element." (and thus make the Flash plugin obsolete), would be the closest to a true and accurate statement.

Addendum: Here are some comments from an HTML WG member, Shelley Powers, who is not affiliated with Adobe:

I'm a member of the HTML WG, but I'm not speaking for the HTML WG, or W3C. I'm only expressing my opinion, and what I know to be facts. I'm also not an employee of Google, Adobe, Apple, Microsoft, or any other company (I'm a writer, for O'Reilly).

There is no truth to this rumor. The posting here is inaccurate. Grossly inaccurate I would add.

This was an issue that has been under discussion, off and on, on the publicly accessible HTML WG for months. It has to do with scope and charter, not the specifications themselves. The Adobe representative to the HTML WG registered his concerns about the fact that the HTML WG is working on specifications that push, or exceed the group's charter. This includes Microdata, RDFa-in-HTML, and the 2D Canvas API.

Adobe is not blocking any specification. There are dozens of issues that are "blocking" HTML5, if you want to use that term, of which I'm responsible for many at this time. Technically the HTML5 specification can't advance to Last Call status until these issues are resolved. However, the W3C management can override my issues, and the issues of any individual or company. No one company can block the advancement of any specification without the concurrence of the W3C leadership.

All of these issues are based on improving all of the specifications, including HTML5 and Canvas. it's unfortunate that the HTML5 editor, who is also the Google representative to the HTML WG introduced such wild, and unfounded speculation, causing harm not only to the Adobe representative, but distracting all of us from the work of finishing the HTML5 and other specifications.

I would hope that people would seek to get confirmation before posting unfounded accusations.

Originally Posted by mstone

Have you tried it? I don't think it is working presently.

Originally Posted by solipsism

Two, WebGL is great but giving a DOM access to HW scares me just a bit.

Originally Posted by solipsism


It has everything to do with Flash (and Silverlight). If these rich web interaction can be handled by efficient and easily coded JS then there is no need for Flash (or Silverlight) for that same task. It doesn't have to do EVERYTHING Flash can do to pick away at it's usage and become prominent. Just look at the number of sites moving to HTML5 for video over Flash, and that is the start.

Originally Posted by jwervel16

Erm, the name / joke analogy is actually a little boneheaded. How many hugely successful products and companies of the last decade have nonsensical names?

Originally Posted by Groovetube

I did read what you posted, and you posted Adobe against everybody else. It simply, isn't true. Period.

As stated, adobe is behind on developing a player for mobile. Their player currently, isn't because of obvious reasons (though flash lite is on some already), soI'm not sure exactly what you are arguing about

I'm trying to point out the spouting nonsense, and the fact that certain opinions seem to tell the whole storey. If you want to speak authoritatively on the subject, it's good to look at the whole story and scope out what's happening on both sides.

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Adobe is working on Flash by itself. Many companies and organizations are working on HTML5, so it is Adobe competing against everyone else.



The point you just made, is the point. HTML5 is new and efficient and works right now. Flash is old inefficient. Adobe is trying to make it do what it was originally designed to do.



What non-sense do you see spouted? How have I been unfair to the role Flash plays in the current reality of the computer industry?

Originally Posted by ksec

Flash is huge, it is a platform in itself. You cant just replace everything Flash does in a JS framework or HTML 5. When AI say a Flash Alternative, something similar to Sliverlight is what others will think. However, Gianduia is not an platform.

It is like saying Apple developing Ferrari alternative named xxxx ( an Engine ). Which doesn't make sense.

That is why, the title is misleading.

Originally Posted by ksec

Flash is huge, it is a platform in itself. You cant just replace everything Flash does in a JS framework or HTML 5.

Originally Posted by Glockpop

No it isn't. H.264 is an alternative to Flash, although limited to the video playback functions of Flash. Similarly, this JS framework is an alternative to another use of Flash: RIAs.

An alternative doesn't necessarily imply a full drop in replacement with all of the exact same features, and the fact that you might jump to that conclusion when reading the headline is your problem, not AIs. That's why there is text to read after the headline which clarifies the various uses of Flash and how each one is being taken down by different technologies.

Flash is suposed to be a one-size-fits-all solution to everything. But the web is a collection of tools that work together: HTML for semantic presentation, CSS for styling, JavaScript for programability and interaction. Flash is an alternative to the web that rolls everything into a binary blob you have to wait to download.

Originally Posted by Groovetube

what are we missing here. Oh right, sanity.

Ok, adobe is NOT working flash by itself, they are working many applications and platforms that include HTML5. So, what are you talking about just flash by itself.

There are plenty, of things to criticize adobe for. But we need to get the straight and accurate to have a decent conversation right?

Originally Posted by Glockpop

No it isn't. H.264 is an alternative to Flash, although limited to the video playback functions of Flash.

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Who else other than Adobe is guiding the development work for Flash? Flash is not an open platform. The other platforms Adobe is working on are open and not controlled by any one company.

Originally Posted by Groovetube

and what does this prove? Certainly not what you asserted as adobe against everybody else! Does the fact that a company has a unique product/platform automatically makes them all alone against all the other companies?

Sounds a little bit of drama to me...

Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody

If we are talking about truth, then it needs to be pointed out that you are spinning it fairly hard here.

Yes, it's technically true that Adobe is part of the team working very hard on HTML5, but you fail to mention that they are at the same time, working to push the HTML5 group away from using or developing the "Canvas" element which is the part of HTML5 that would basically replace Flash animations on the web.

"Adobe is working hard on making sure that Flash animations don't get replaced by HTML5's Canvas element." (and thus make the Flash plugin obsolete), would be the closest to a true and accurate statement.

Originally Posted by GrooveTube

Nonsense. Just because someone reported it as some kind of fact, doesn't make it so. Oh wait, look at! Flash CS5 exports to html canvas? Say it ain't so...

Originally Posted by TenoBell

There is nothing inherent in Flash that it cannot be replaced.

Originally Posted by TenoBell

When everyone else is supporting a competing technology, yes it does. I'm not sure why that's difficult to understand.

Originally Posted by solipsism

True, but he did use the word 'just' which indicates to me that realizes that all currently in Flash can be replaced but it will take a good deal of time and effort to get (from soonest to longest) capable browser marketshare, solid frameworks built, and rich dev tools before that will happen.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into that adverb.

Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody

It's pretty obvious you are playing fast and loose with the facts here and that you have a definite agenda so I'm not going to respond after this. It's sunny outside anyway so why anyone would want to stay in and argue with trolls in the dark is beyond me.

I said this:
And you said in reply (somewhat ironically):

It's your statement that is total nonsense here. The quote you reference is just some guy (with an agenda also), who says that Adobe isn't sabotaging or delaying HTML5 canvas discussions. But it's in response to someone else who says they are. It's a much more involved and complicated situation that that of course, but they are both just "things that people said," and not necessarily facts. It's idiotic to take the word of one person and decry the word of another without any factual basis either way.

When you look at the actual facts and what actually has been happening, *most* people involved in the discussions and following them seem to believe that Adobe is delaying the spec. The canvas part of the spec is in fact delayed, and again *most* people ascribe this to Adobe's actions and influence on the working group. I tend to take the word of tech columnists like John Gruber and numerous others around the web rather than an anonymous troll on a forum. Adobe clearly has an obvious and very large interest in holding the canvas spec back, they are on the working group, and the spec is in fact being held back for lack of agreement, but also lack of discussion. The balance of the facts agree with the interpretation that Adobe might be playing games here. At least that's the way it looks at the moment.

The second part of your statement is just a lie. The page you reference doesn't even have the word "export" on the entire page so I don't see how it can be used as support for the statement that Adobe CS5 supports exporting to canvas from Flash.

While Adobe does support some elements of canvas with it's products, to directly imply as you have done, that you can load up your animation in Flash and click a button to export it as a canvas element that you can plop into an HTML5 page the same way as you can drop in a flash element is just false.

Originally Posted by TenoBell

1. denial
2. anger
3. bargaining
4. depression
5. acceptance

Originally Posted by solipsism

True, but he did use the word 'just' which indicates to me that realizes that all of Flash can't be replaced at this time. It will take a good deal of time and effort to get (from soonest to longest) dominate modern browser marketshare, solid frameworks built, and rich dev tools before that will happen. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that adverb.

Originally Posted by Groovetube

it's tough I know.

But generally I find people when faced with facts tend to run to 'you have an agenda', name calling, and other tactics. Keep your eye on the actual subject matter rather than resorting this kind of silliness.

Originally Posted by Groovetube

you could go on to say that any technology, any of it, can be replaced. Should we clap our hands at this explosive revelation?

This mere fact isn't a slam dunk that it -will- get replaced. Technologies that continue to present great ROI, and developers love working within the development platforms, will continue to win. I have no crystal ball so I couldn't tell you which they'll be in 5 years. It'll be an interesting 5 years though.

Originally Posted by TenoBell

Yes all technology gets replaced. Nothing lasts. Flash is dragging around 10 year old code. You are not going to be successful on the new mobile device market carrying around 10 year old legacy crap.

Adobe should have rehauled the old Flash into a brand new Flash. That's in effect what they are trying to do. But they are taking too long. No one is going to sit around waiting for them.

Originally Posted by solipsism

I vote for CocoaButter or TextualChocolate.

Originally Posted by Groovetube

actually, many are. Almost every interactive shop I'm aware of, is.

I just find a lot of mistruths are thrown around, and regardless of what your personal likes are, it serves no real purpose. If flash truly sucks, and deserves to be killed, well, it'll be a slow messy death is about all I can say

Originally Posted by RationalTroll

Read more than just Steve's rant. He's not made a single point that hasn't been torn asunder across the web. Only the lay press and fanbois fail to question His Steveness....

Originally Posted by TenoBell

They are not waiting for Flash to improve they just not have found it necessary to replace yet. Once they find it in their interest to change they will.

If they want to build a mobile website (which is becoming more necessary as smart phones sales are expected to match computer sales soon) Flash is not an option at all.
Wrong. You talk as though apple owns 90% of the mobile space. They don't, well yet, but they're certainly giving it a real go. One of the things I've noticed, is a very strong interest lately in android, which will have flash very shortly, as well as likely all the other mobile platforms. So apple will be the only one without. Of course, it'll remain to be seen, how well that plays out. From what I saw, if I were a betting man, I'd say flash has far more a chance than you think. This isn't a bias, it's just an observation, from someone who has been making a living in this industry for 15 odd years. We'll see I guess.

I don't have anything personally against Flash. But it is clear that its old technology from a different time and is not properly suited for what is happening today and in the near future.

Originally Posted by isaidso

It's never been necessary for him to make ANY point on this at all. He only reiterated what everyone has known (as I said) for a very long time.
On a separate note: your lemming like attitude, with use of terms like "His Steveness" and the (still popular with the mindless), "fanbois" , show your incredible lack of maturity in addition to your lack of facts.
Oh well. One more for the ignore.

Originally Posted by Groovetube

Why because Steve told you so? How is it 'old technology', compared to html? And how is the new flash stuff, 'old technology'? If you're going to bash something, let's use clear examples rather than broad insinuations. As I said, there's lots to criticize, but these broad parrots of his "Steveness" does nothing for me. The very fact That SJ even posted a response regarding flash tells me the backlash was something to be concerned about. He doth protesteth too much?

Let's be clear, if flash went down, I'd be sad to see what I see as a great platform to develop in. But I'll use whatever is good, and does the job effectively. Most of my work tends to be in PHP. I'm totally down with HTML5 coming in. WHy wouldn't I be. But when it comes to developing a great interactive experience, it's tough to beat flash as an authoring platform to develop in, and it's going to take a whole lot more than yippee we can make things move in canvas to pull developers away from flash I can assure you.

Originally Posted by solipsism

...says the guy who decided to use general claims about Flash when specific examples of open standards being more efficient. :rollseyes: