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NPD: Android phones now outsell Apple's iPhone in US - Page 5

post #161 of 279
5/10/10 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The capability of each phone is entirely different, the user interface of each phone are very different, how each phone works is radically different.


HTC Incredible vs. Nexus One



Just understand that you are making a future prediction, that's not the current reality.

Nice, obtuse post.

Of course predictions refer to the future. Do you normally predict the present?

And sure, the Nexus and Incredible have different desktop/homescreens, but that doesn't mean the Android SDK is different for each phone. If I change the icons and background on my OSX desktop does iWork break? Of course not. The underlying system is the same.

Sure, Android is open source, but so is the OSX kernel. People could of course design a bunch of non-standards based versions of Android where no existing apps would work, but why would they?
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post #162 of 279
5/10/10 at 1:46pm
Those aren't simply Android skins they do offer specific additional functionality right within the phone for widgets and social networking. So they do directly effect the way Android works on each phone. The user interface and human interface guidelines are extremely important for the ease of use of the phone.

I agree those different UI by themselves don't necessarily break application compatibility. But they do splinter the Android platform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicpolywog View Post

Sense and Blur are only skin-deep additions to the Android OS. They don't break application compatibility, and they don't have any bearing on the development process for app creators. Saying that they "aren't doing anything to make them compatible" is a nonsensical statement. You can download the same apps from the Android Market and they work exactly the same on Sense, Blur, or Stock Android.
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post #163 of 279
5/10/10 at 1:50pm
You didn't bother reading the article did you?

Why do you guys keep bringing up the OS X kernal, I strongly suggest you stop using that as you open source example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Nice, obtuse post.

And sure, the Nexus and Incredible have different desktop/homescreens, but that doesn't mean the Android SDK is different for each phone. If I change the icons and background on my OSX desktop does iWork break? Of course not. The underlying system is the same.

Sure, Android is open source, but so is the OSX kernel. People could of course design a bunch of non-standards based versions of Android where no existing apps would work, but why would they?
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post #164 of 279
5/10/10 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

I can see by the de-evolution of your posts to device insults that you're not going to be worth continuing to discuss anything with. My original point that actual upgrading Android is not as complex of a process as j-somthing made it out to be. That point has been proven. Anything else you want to say is just you stroking your own ego.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicpolywog View Post

Because google still has a standardized SDK for devs to use? And it's in phone-maker's best interest, if they change anything at all, to keep it compatible with the standards google has laid out. Heck, Mac OS is based on an open source kernel... that hasn't stopped people from developing mac software...

You folks are living in a dream world.

In the REAL world, people are having problems upgrading their Android phones. It may work smoothly for a few people, but it is difficult or impossible for the overwhelming majority.

Read the page on this board just a few days ago covering the topic. Only a very tiny percentage of Android users ever upgrade their phones - because in many cases the upgrade isn't even available because they need the specific upgrade from their carrier, not the generic one that you're bragging about.

The proof is in the pudding - and Android's is apparently inedible.
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post #165 of 279
5/10/10 at 1:54pm
Quote:
How do you develop for an OS that can be very different from phone to phone?

You really don't "get" Android or open source, do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The capability of each phone is entirely different,

What do you mean? They're both phones, they both run the same apps, they both can browse the internet, check email, they both have cameras...

Quote:
the user interface of each phone are very different,

Not true. It's subtly different. Sense is just a skin, some snazzy looking widgets, and a couple bundled apps. Granted, they're not EXACTLY the same, but the UI conventions are the same, like the notification bar at the top that pulls down, the icons and widgets. What you're saying is basically like saying that all Macs are incompatible because people can change the desktop picture and arrange their folders differently. To a developer, none of this makes any difference.
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post #166 of 279
5/10/10 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

People are not free to drop the data plans if they want.

You saying your son has a first gen iPhone on AT&T with no data plan? Your son uses wireless data without being charged for it?

No, he has not data what so every, and yes it is a second phone on our AT&T family plan. he uses it for games, music, texting, and as phone. If he wants data he uses wifi. Once the the two year commitment is up it can be used as a regular phone. What AT&T does not like if taking the lower cost data plans they have and putting an iphone on that plan, if you want data you have to pay for an iphone data plan.
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post #167 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You didn't bother reading the article did you?

That's a blog post about one guy's experience, not an article. It's cool that he has opinions too, though. However, most of the publications that have reviewed the Incredible disagree with him.
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post #168 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicpolywog View Post

I don't actually know much about profit margins in the mobile business, but I was under the impression that the manufacturer sets the price they charge the carrier for the handsets, and then the carrier covers their loss on the 2-for-1 by signing people up for 2-year commitments to $30/mo data plans on their "free" phones. They already have enough margin on voice plans to give you a "free" new phone every 2 years... why wouldn't they be able to afford to make that free phone a cheap/free smartphone when they force you to pay more per month for the privilege of having one.

It depends on the specific contract between mfr and carrier. Of course, the carrier can afford it, but that $300 subsidy comes right out of their profit and reduces their cash flow.

In any case, if VZW commits to 1m Palm Pre and pays Palm a fixed high price for each but is unable to sell them and resorts to 2-for-1s, what is the chance that VZW commits to 1m Palm anythings the next time around? If anything, VZW would demand a much lower price for a given volume commitment.

Right now, I suspect with the Android and other smartphones that VZW isn't really having trouble selling them, but VZW is instead embarking on a land grab - i.e., convincing as many VZW subscribers as possible to upgrade (and lock in for 2 years), and for those thinking about leaving for AT&T or other carrier, convincing them to stay with a better financial offer.
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post #169 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

As a matter of fact, Android is the only thing that can keep Apple in line now.

What kind of 'line' is that which Apple should be on?
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post #170 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul94544 View Post

I will be dumping my iPhone and getting an Android device - the reason I have more control over what apps I can run - my choice

Good luck with that!
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #171 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

The collective cell phone industry has always outsold the iphone. Duh! Apple only releases 1 iteration a year. That is their current business model. They don't saturate the market like NOKIA.

Right. Apple is not even in the top five cellphone manufacturers, and that is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

But since Android, the cell phone folks have adopted it like crazy. In effect Android has piggybacked on what was an ALREADY DOMINATING cell business anyway. DUH! DUH! DUH!
It isn't like Google was producing its own phone taking into account the cost of hardware, design etc.


It looks to be a viable strategy.
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post #172 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:17pm
I tried a Desire.

- Phone got hot within minutes of surfing
- UI was nice but not as refined in places
- Battery was shockingly bad

All in all a terrible experience. I liked the notification system but that's about it. I regret getting rid of my 3GS. Cant wait for the 4th iphone!
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post #173 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202 View Post

Apple is doomed if it attempts to focus on market share at the expense of profitability.

Heck, let's just make it a rule.

Everyone who posts must put "Apple is doomed!" at either the beginning or ending of every post.
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post #174 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Why is AI rendering so poorly now in Safari? Anybody else having the ads take over the entire screen?

Glitch from the ad provider. It has been fixed.
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #175 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicpolywog View Post

You really don't "get" Android or open source, do you?

What definition of open source do you believe i am using?


Quote:
What do you mean? They're both phones, they both run the same apps, they both can browse the internet, check email, they both have cameras...

Wait and watch as this whole thing continues.
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post #176 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:31pm
I know the data plan as absolutely required when you first buy an iPhone. I'd never heard of it being optional after the contract has ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

No, he has not data what so every, and yes it is a second phone on our AT&T family plan. he uses it for games, music, texting, and as phone. If he wants data he uses wifi. Once the the two year commitment is up it can be used as a regular phone. What AT&T does not like if taking the lower cost data plans they have and putting an iphone on that plan, if you want data you have to pay for an iphone data plan.
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post #177 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

What definition of open source do you believe i am using?

apparently one in which operating systems that use open source kernels are impossible to develop apps for.

Or maybe what you're trying to say is that it's difficult for developers to have consistent UI with the rest of the system because some phones have slight variations in their native UIs?

If that's what you've been getting at, you're right about UI guidelines being important, but you're wrong about Android being particularly bad at having a consistent UI. I was worried about this before I actually tried using the Incredible. While it's true that it's not as homogenous as iPhone OS, it's not like it's disruptive. It's not, for example, like mac vs windows, where the UI is jarringly inconsistent with itself.

And there are a lot of other benefits. Like Google Voice, a decent carrier, tethering...
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post #178 of 279
5/10/10 at 2:59pm
Google deserves some congratulations. Between Google copying the iPhone OS, paying manufacturers, and Android phones being given away for free, they finally are able to pawn off more of their handsets than Apple is able to sell at full price, their original, premium offering.

Are there people on this board who have convinced themselves that these models are even close to comparable?
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #179 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

Google deserves some congratulations. Between Google copying the iPhone OS, paying manufacturers, and Android phones being given away for free, they finally are able to pawn off more of their handsets than Apple is able to sell at full price, their original, premium offering.

Are there people on this board who have convinced themselves that these models are even close to comparable?

You've been around long enough to know that Apple pretty much copied the idea of a touch-screen phone from Palm from early part of last decade.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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post #180 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202 View Post

one must measure a company not by its marketshare nor its growth rate but by its profitability.

Your entire thesis ignores the fact that there are many more consumers than there are owners. For consumers who might be "measuring a company", profitability is dwarfed by other factors.
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post #181 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

You've been around long enough to know that Apple pretty much copied the idea of a touch-screen phone from Palm from early part of last decade.

Oh, of course. Why I remember when the iPhone was first introduced, all of the tech journalists, fans, and haters decried the iPhone as a copycat of the...

What phone or OS was it you said the iPhone copied?
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #182 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

You've been around long enough to know that Apple pretty much copied the idea of a touch-screen phone from Palm from early part of last decade.

And you know, Apple did such a lousy job of it, they forgot to copy the stylus! Out of embarrassment for Apple, Palm almost went bankrupt.
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post #183 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

And you know, Apple did such a lousy job of it, they forgot to copy the stylus! Out of embarrassment for Apple, Palm almost went bankrupt.

They also forgot to limit the input to one interaction. On top of that, they used capacitance with glass instead of having a resistive piece of plastic on top. Who does that? Surely Apple was just copying Palm's plans that were in place for the Palm Pre and WebOS long before the iPhone was even a concept.
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post #184 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:36pm
Yes I know Apple is controlling but when I bought mine there was no alternative really
I bought my iPhone 2 years ago (2nd Gen not 3GS) my contract with ATT is up in July
I like iPhone quite lot but the deal breaker is I can't run Skype over 3G too bad - yes I know I can jail brake it but it runs too slow once jail broken.. (I've done it and went back)
[*]When did you buy your iPhone? Why did you buy an iPhone?[*]When did the first Android phone come out?
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post #185 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

Good luck with that!

thank you I will keep you informed on how it goes and money I save
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post #186 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They also forgot to limit the input to one interaction. On top of that, they used capacitance with glass instead of having a resistive piece of plastic on top. Who does that? Surely Apple was just copying Palm's plans that were in place for the Palm Pre and WebOS long before the iPhone was even a concept.

My friend, I have seen this very speculation written by Palm fans. I recently read in a forum how Apple saw the announcement of the Pre and delayed shipping the 3GS so they could copy its innovations. This was given as an explanation for why Palm was being secretive about future hardware plans. Unbelievable!
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #187 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

Oh, of course. Why I remember when the iPhone was first introduced, all of the tech journalists, fans, and haters decried the iPhone as a copycat of the...

What phone or OS was it you said the iPhone copied?

He said PalmOS:


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post #188 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

He said PalmOS:

Those resistive displays sure bring back memories!
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post #189 of 279
5/10/10 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

He said PalmOS:



Of course! Silly me. When I held my iPhone up next to that picture, I thought I was looking at a exact image of the iPhone. I noticed the grid pattern icons and the... the... um...

Tell me again how they are alike?

Here is a better question: Why does the Palm Pre look and act more like an iPhone than like any of its predecessors?
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #190 of 279
5/10/10 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

You've been around long enough to know that Apple pretty much copied the idea of a touch-screen phone from Palm from early part of last decade.

This is straight historical revisionism.

The Apple Newton came out years before the first Palm model and the first Palm phone was many years after that. Your statement is simply not true.
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post #191 of 279
5/10/10 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post

it would be interesting to know, how many people who receive a free phone then sign up for service for that phone and make a 2 year (guess) contract with the provider?

there may be lots of unused free phones sitting in the dust bins.

Those "free phones" aren't not actually free, as the account holder has to sign up for a second line to get that phone and has to pay for two lines of service.
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post #192 of 279
5/10/10 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LonerATO View Post

Those "free phones" aren't not actually free, as the account holder has to sign up for a second line to get that phone and has to pay for two lines of service.

I think that is an important point. While the average price per device per handset vendor participating in BOGO sale is lower they are actual sales and should be considered as such.
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post #193 of 279
5/10/10 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think that is an important point. While the average price per device per handset vendor participating in BOGO sale is lower they are actual sales and should be considered as such.

Sorry, heavily discounted to the point of giving stuff away along with the phone is not a sale in the same way that a full priced, premium item is a sale. Many of the phones end up being less than free after all the rebates and give aways. You are deluding yourself if you think that is equivalent to dropping $200-$300 on an iPhone.

I doubt there is any phone in the world that comes close to the "sales" of the iPhone. As for general adoption of a broad OS category... that is a different story.

Tell me, do you think any manufacturer would still be in business if Apple started giving away iPhones for free?
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #194 of 279
5/10/10 at 4:56pm
[QUOTE=Mac Voyer;1629755}
Tell me, do you think any manufacturer would still be in business if Apple started giving away iPhones for free?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. As much as I love my iPhone, Not everyone wants a smart phone. Not everyone needs a smartphone. Not everyone wants to pay for the data plan. Not everyone loves ATT.

Besides, you can get an iPhone for $99, which is not that much money. Thus, if the Apple were the phone that everyone REALLY wanted (which is the implication of the statement that ALL other phone makers would close up if Apple were to give phones away for free), then one would expect the sales numbers to be much much higher
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post #195 of 279
5/10/10 at 5:06pm
Based on "Online Surveys" 150,000 doesn't even match to the amount sold. Surveys are ludacris
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post #196 of 279
5/10/10 at 5:07pm
we can all thank Apple for creating the best phone ever, but going forward, they insistence on one model of phone for everyone is going to cost them market share and profits down the road. oh wait, they do have a few colors to choose from, but really, one model, one carrier, one large profit for a relatively short time. Looks good right now, and oh yeah, look at the new iPad. But it's a long race and its time to think different over there.
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post #197 of 279
5/10/10 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LonerATO View Post

Those "free phones" aren't not actually free, as the account holder has to sign up for a second line to get that phone and has to pay for two lines of service.

Or pay a $350 early termination fee per phone--customer's choice! It's all part of Verizon's open stance and the reason why Verizon would never want the iPhone.
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post #198 of 279
5/10/10 at 5:26pm
Sol, I just re-read my last post, and I was a bit harsh in my tone. Sorry about that.
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #199 of 279
5/10/10 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

Absolutely. As much as I love my iPhone, Not everyone wants a smart phone. Not everyone needs a smartphone. Not everyone wants to pay for the data plan. Not everyone loves ATT.

Besides, you can get an iPhone for $99, which is not that much money. Thus, if the Apple were the phone that everyone REALLY wanted (which is the implication of the statement that ALL other phone makers would close up if Apple were to give phones away for free), then one would expect the sales numbers to be much much higher

Let me be more clear. If Apple "sold" the iPhone along side its "peers" with the same "prices" and terms, in the same retail and online channels, on the same carriers, etc, I think those "peers" would be forced to close up shop the following day. Google had better thank their lucky starts there is no Verizon iPhone. In fact, they should be paying Apple to stay away.
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #200 of 279
5/10/10 at 5:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilM View Post

Doesn't seem surprising. There are multiple Android platform phones vs. essentially one iPhone family, and the current iPhone 3GS is nearing the end of its product lifecycle. It's interesting to note that phones such as Motorola's Droid are frequently the object of two-for-the-price-of-one sales and the like.

Buy one get one free! You will see this very common in shopping malls in Asia!
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