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Apple responds to Android sales, says NPD data doesn't tell whole story - Page 4

post #121 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Yes I do have the sales figures, motorola said they only shipped 2.1M droid phones and HTC numbers were not much different.

BTW it was survey and by definition of survey it is statistical analysis and the only thing you can conclude from it is the data is wrong

Also, you have not clue about marketing, Apple is not interested in gaining market share over devaluing the product. This is marketing 101, Apple will never allow the product to be given away, either you pay the price of you do own the product. Why give away a product when people are whiling to pay for.

Actually, iPhone 3GS 8G in Japan is free, with two year contract. It's about $53/month, unlimited data (actually the limit is 300G).
post #122 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

How can you say that?

Have you ever owned or run a company?

I have, with two other principals!

We had three basic objectives:

1) return a fair profit to our owners and investors
2) provide the best possible products and services to our customers
3) have fun

(snip)

...and it really pisses me off when someone like you flippantly characterizes others through the looking glass of his own morals and ethics!

.

Well said!

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #123 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

But where Apple does sell on multiple carriers, they do well. Canada is a great example. We've got the iPhone on all 3 carriers. And iPhones abound. That said Android is gaining traction. And with all 3 carriers selling the iPhone, Android handsets are now marketed by the major carriers as differentiators, the way the lone iPhone carrier (Rogers) used to market the iPhone. One carrier (Telus) still has ads and store banners proclaiming the Motorola Milestone, and its far more prominent than the iPhone. So who knows how things will play out.

Living in the US with one carrier, I don't see those types of ads.

What you're pointing out is quite interesting.

I think the carriers make more money on Android phones than on iPhone (assuming the plans are the same) as the subsidy for iPhone is about $400, and I think it's less for the other phones (even if those phones are free). So I can see why Telus might be proclaiming the Milestone more than iPhone.
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post #124 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondering View Post

If you are going to come up with a "conclusion" at least make an effort to use numbers that are meaningful. You are tossing in thinks, extrapolations, and other fluff without any detail. And you additionally only select AT&T activations and some small percentage of that as smartphones. Is this meant to say this is the percentage that represents iPhone? Since you measure Android on a worldwide basis why would you use only AT&T as the iPhone basis?

Wow, you really have trouble with reading comprehension. So simplifying for such as you:

NPD estimated US sales of Android smartphones and Apple smartphones (i.e., iPhone) based on a survey. People question it. So let's see if we can corroborate the survey with whatever data we have.

There is NO public data on iPhone sales in US but AT&T reported iPhone activations serves as a useful proxy, since AT&T is the only carrier for iPhone in US.

There is NO public data on Android sales in US. Android phones in US consist primarily of Motorola, HTC, and Samsung phones.

There IS public data on worldwide sales of Motorola (2.3 to 2.8M) and HTC (2.6 to 2.8M) smartphones, but none on Samsung smartphones (but can deduce it is less than 2.3M since not in top 5). US sales for each are only a subset of worldwide sales. HTC smartphones include WinMo phones, so need to discount further.

So iPhone units sold in 1Q10 in US is about 2.7M. Android units sold in 1Q10 worldwide is about 5M. Most Motorola smartphone sales in 1Q10 was in US, so maybe 2M. So even if only 700K of the 2.6M HTC are Android and sold in US (and this is likely given Hero/Eris, Dream/G1, Magic/myTouch, Nexus One, etc and given AdMob US data), it puts Android in the same ballpark as iPhone. (Samsung has Galaxy, Moment, Behold in US but none seem to be a big hit.)

Got it?
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post #125 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudpud View Post

Cry me a river Apple. BOGO complaints. One carrier complaints. Whose fault is that????????????? Crippled no-Flash phone??????????????

I will NOT get an iPhone as long as AT&T is the carrier. In fact, I and many others will NOT get an iPhone until it comes to Verizon and only Verizon.

Besides, with my DROID Incredible, I'm pretty sure I won't be asking for an iPhone in the future. And many more are in the same boat!

Attack that now all you want.

And, you are?

.
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post #126 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

I don't get why people say this is a bad thing. As a consumer, I'd be happy if people cut me a deal (which is what BOGO is....it's not free). I find it odd that people on here think its a good thing that Apple doesn't cut prices or offers special deals to gain marketshare. Good for shareholders. Not so good for me as a consumer (of Apple products). And where were all these people when the iPhone was first launched for $600 and the price dropped. Were they all upset that Apple 'discounted' the iPhone?

Good on Verizon and their partner OEMs for competing. People act like that's a bad thing for us consumers. If Apple and AT&T were smart, they would counter by offering the last gen iPhone for free on contract and convert every high school kid onto the iPhone platform for life....and who knows, we might see that yet! It's like smoking. The phone companies have to get 'em young!

As long as Apple keeps innovating in a way that leads to products with a great user experience, I want Apple to exist. I want to have the opportunity to choose the Apple paradigm because all the other electronics/computer companies have bought into a different paradigm that leads to mostly crappy copycat products. In order for Apple to exist, they need to maintain a fair profit to keep innovating.

Also as a consumer, I'm willing to pay a fair premium for the better user experience, but I don't want to be gouged. So I do want good competitors to exist to keep Apple (and their partners like AT&T) in check. I would like nothing more than to see AT&T (and VZW) forced to lower prices.

So for me, there is a tension, and it's not black and white.
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post #127 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Interesting catch...



Eh, you have a point there. I was thinking in broad terms or moral ethics. They didn't sacrifice a million kids or stole from the poor or used oil derived from currently endangers species in the delivery trucks to initiate the BOGO deal. That we know of...

Err...Ahhh, I think that oil comes from the dinosaurs... and they were extinct before... even one as old as me

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post #128 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

If Apple does not care about market share and volumen, then why did they drop the price of the original iPhone by hundreds of dollars?

That's easy! They had a goal of penetration into a market new to them... They miscalculated (screwed up) and overpriced their offering (the iPhone) to meet that goal.

They recognized that, and were agile enough to adjust their price so they could meet their goal...

... to do otherwise, would be, just, stupid!

.
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post #129 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

If Apple does not care about market share and volumen, then why did they drop the price of the original iPhone by hundreds of dollars?

Apple doesn't care about being number 1 in market share, or even number 2. They're not after market share for market share sake, or for bragging rights.

But Apple does care about establishing viable products - Apple's goal at iPhone launch was 1% or 10M units in its first full year. So they dropped the price, and then changed their sales model (to subsidy) to make that happen.

Apple also does care about number of iPhone OS units sold for the sake of the iPhone OS PLATFORM. There is a unit/share threshold below which very few will develop Apps and content for the platform. The Mac almost died because the number of units sold (or market share) was too small - moving to OS X and establishing Quicktime as part of MPEG-4 saved Apple.

Apple's carefully crafted PR response today was clearly directed to developers who might be concerned. So that's why Apple points to 85M iPhone and iPod touch - both are part of the same platform.
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post #130 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

You say it as though it's a small accomplishment. If that's true (and I don't think Android sales have caught up to the iPhone yet), that'll be quite a feat. It means that Android is catching up (and may have caught up) to the iPhone. It means that Android is proving to be a decent competitor. It's saying a lot if your conclusion is true. I wouldn't minimize that point.

And it's not a bad thing. Competition means better stuff for lower prices for us consumers. Android is good for Apple fans too.

I agree...that's a good thing, and give Android their due for realizing good numbers!

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post #131 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

She says "no comment".

she shoulda' done that in this case, too!
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post #132 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Not as good as the Apple app store. But that's more of a choice and app quality issue. It's coming along though. I see more and more iPhone apps getting ported to AM regularly. And if Android does gain marketshare, then of course, the popularity of the platform with developers will take off. For now, undoubtedly, the iPhone OS has the largest installed base.

If you are a good developer, there should be no reason why you can't make money off Android thought. Right now, I daresayt it's probably easier to get noticed in Android Market with a good app, than in the iPhone app store.

And while I don't know how difficult it is, given the number of apps that are appearing on both platforms, is it possible for you to develop for both, like many other developers?

Lastly, one thing to keep in mind with Android is that you don't have to necessarily distribute through Android Market. You can simply distribute your app through your own website or alternate Android app stores.

When will Google or any developer release some data about sales and revenue data resulting from selling apps for Android phones? Especially to counter data showing that free apps are even more dominant in Android Market (when compared to App Store).

Why hasn't any such data been released yet?
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post #133 of 226
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Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

They also have 0 environmental controls or regulations in China, Chinese employees handle hazardaous substances without the normally required (in the Western world) protective equipment, foreign companies negotiate wages directly with the government (who the employees can't vote for), and Apple has no liability for worker safety (this is "guaranteed" by the Chinese government).

How deep is your head in the sand? Have you never wondered why it's so cheap to have things made in China? No environmental regulations, nobody asking for a higher wage, much less insurance needed, and employees never take vacations or say no to overtime!

Would you have Apple discontinue doing business in China? That way all those handling hazardous materials would lose their jobs & die of starvation... if you were Chinese: Which would you choose, Which is better... worse... unethical?

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post #134 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

That;s easy! They had a goal of penetration into a market new to them... They miscalculated (screwed up) and overpriced their offering (the iPhone) to meet that goal.

They did?

Then maybe you can explain why the iPhone's adoption rate was faster than any smartphone in history. And why it's still the #1 selling phone model 3 years after introduction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

That's the choice Apple made. If they didn't have that AT&T exclusive, Android wouldn't have been able to get a toe into the US market. iPhones would have been everywhere. But they made their choice. And the consequences are playing out. I hope Steve has a good out clause in his AT&T contract.

Too bad you're looking at only one side of the equation. Without the AT&T exclusive, the iPhone might well not be where it is today. Apple's deal with AT&T meant that Apple gave some things up but got some things in return. Apple is very happy with the results (based on their quarterly earnings conference call). What do you know that Apple doesn't?
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post #135 of 226
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Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They aren't doctoring the numbers, but they are choosing the ones that make them look better... as every company does. If they were announcing the revenue and profit they get in the handset market which I think they have it would behoove them to use the entire handset market as the per unit price drops significantly for non-smartphones.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...fit_crown.html

Ta Dah!

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post #136 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Vic View Post

Truth be told, this topic would not have been an issue if Apple would have crushed the competition by opening up the U.S. market from the onset. The exclusive deal with ATT has only stifle growth. If I were Mr. Jobs, I would have flood the market with Iphone like yesterday. The only reason why Android phones are gaining any market shares as we speak is because the lack of iphone availability on other U.S. carriers. Why can the world have access to the iphone but yet three quarters of the U.S. market is disenfranchise from owning an iphone. I would like to own a iphone but I would like to stay on the Verizon network as well.

You need to go back to the way things were in 2006. Without AT&T around to agree to an exclusive, Apple would never have gotten the freedom to establish almost total control over its handset, including direct iTunes sales. The whole App Store concept would've been still-born.

Only in desperation in 2009 did Verizon finally loosen its strings and allow Android and its Market in.
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post #137 of 226
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Originally Posted by Superbass View Post

Way better camera, smaller form factor, lower price will all prompt average people to upgrade...

Agree and what if it's battery life was significantly better? And what if AT&T allows 3GS owners to upgrade in less than a year? (I just checked my account and my upgrade date has been moved up to 7/23/2010, and I didn't buy my 3GS until Aug 2009.)

If this is AT&T's last iPhone exclusive, I can see them pulling out all the stops to entice as many subscribers as possible to sign up for a new 2-year iPhone contract.
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post #138 of 226
Hahahaha Apple wont do this, Apple doesn't reply to that...

If Apple's market share or sales start declining, Apple will do ***** anything.

They haven't had to yet. But the signs are a bit worrying in some areas though you have to admit - Android in the number 1 spot. 150000 is a pretty reasonable sample size if you ask me. I'd be happy with it.

I used to be an Apple fan, but my enthusiasm has waned a bit over the years, chiefly due to not so much to the products Apple produces, they are still amazing, but more due to the attitude Apple takes to its customers.
post #139 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

They did?

Then maybe you can explain why the iPhone's adoption rate was faster than any smartphone in history. And why it's still the #1 selling phone model 3 years after introduction.

Would it have been that way without the AT&T subsidy?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Too bad you're looking at only one side of the equation. Without the AT&T exclusive, the iPhone might well not be where it is today. Apple's deal with AT&T meant that Apple gave some things up but got some things in return. Apple is very happy with the results (based on their quarterly earnings conference call). What do you know that Apple doesn't?

They got a ton out of AT&T. I don't deny that at all. But at this point, it's debatable whether AT&T is hurting or helping Apple. Time will tell whether Steve was incredibly smart or incredibly stupid for signing a 5 year deal. And that's of course assuming there is a deal and all that jazz. I could be totally wrong and be surprised to see a CDMA or AWS iPhone this summer.
post #140 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

When will Google or any developer release some data about sales and revenue data resulting from selling apps for Android phones? Especially to counter data showing that free apps are even more dominant in Android Market (when compared to App Store).

Why hasn't any such data been released yet?

Is that relevant though? Sure there's lots of free apps. But as a developer you can have Google take a cut and put it on Android Market or you can sell it right off your website and pay Google nothing. So sales on Android Market and even the number of apps is not directly comparable to Apple per se.
post #141 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post


Only in desperation in 2009 did Verizon finally loosen its strings and allow Android and its Market in.

then you have role reversal with AT&T and Android in that regard. They seem to be forcing their Android handset makers to include bloatware mandatory Yahoo search.

Exactly the things Apple wanted to avoid when they decided not to go with Verizon.
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post #142 of 226
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Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

The PR department carefully worded its statement to lead into the world-wide figures that can't be changing so fast in Google's favor. Apple didn't get into disputing the accuracy of NPD's figures, perhaps because the figures might be accurate enough and because it's safer just to focus on what Apple knows for certain.

Glad someone else noticed that.

Apple's only response was to try to change the subject.

I can't imagine a stronger endorsement from Apple for the reliability of those numbers.
post #143 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Also, you have not clue about marketing, Apple is not interested in gaining market share over devaluing the product. This is marketing 101, Apple will never allow the product to be given away, either you pay the price of you do own the product. Why give away a product when people are whiling to pay for.

There are several counties that provide the iPhone for "free" with a contract, so you must have a strange definition of the word "never"
post #144 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight View Post

Seems like a P.R. spin on the truth to tell a bigger truth.

the report stands on its own legs. iphone is no 3 OS on smartphones in the US. if apple is interested in gaining marketshare in the US, iPhones need to be available from more than one carrier.
post #145 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We have cell manufacturers selling 50 models of phones. from the cheapest junk to high end smartphones. They sell a lot of phones, like Nokia. But like Nokia, most of those sales are of cheap, hardly profitable models. Their individual smartphones don't sell that many, but all together they sell a lot. Unfortunately, that makes for less profit.

You say this like it is a bad thing, are you saying you think people with less money than yourself, don't derserve to own a smartphone?

Or are you saying an iPhone is really five times better than a Nokia smartphone with an unsubsidised price of around 100 ?
post #146 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

It's apples and oranges.

If you want to compare device sales, you compare each individual smart phone model to the iPhone - and the iPhone wins handily. No single Android phone comes close to iPhone sales.

OTOH, if you want to compare OS sales (which is implied by the fact that they're lumping all Android models together), then you need to include the iPod Touch and iPad, as well.



What if you want to compare the number of phones sold with iPhone OS to the number of phones sold with Android OS?

It's not really all that hard.
post #147 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

That;s easy! They had a goal of penetration into a market new to them... They miscalculated (screwed up) and overpriced their offering (the iPhone) to meet that goal.

They recognized that, and were agile enough to adjust their price so they could meet their goal...

... to do otherwise, would be, just, stupid!

.

They didn't miscalculate. It's basic business. AT&T were unsure of the product and didn't feel like subsidizing a device that diluted its control, so Apple took "the risk" and passed it on to consumers to prove the product. It sold like relative hotcakes at $600 (1M in 74 days - as fast as the $200 subsidized Droid), case proved, then reduce the price after the early adopters have been milked and then sell it subsidized is phase 3 where sales really take off. It was a great business plan, brilliantly executed. The $100 voucher was worth it alone in free advertising plus most people put those things towards larger purchases of high margin Apple products.
post #148 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by babiasu View Post

Actually, iPhone 3GS 8G in Japan is free, with two year contract. It's about $53/month, unlimited data (actually the limit is 300G).

iPhone 3G free in the UK on 30 pounds per month tariff with 24 months contract. iPhone 3GS free on 45 pounds tariff and 24 months contract.

In Canada, iPhone 3G is $29 on a 3 year contract (sadly 3 year contracts are the norm in Canada for smartphones). And long time customers do get iPhone 3G for free sometimes (with the contract).

So I don't know what all this talk is about Apple not discounting their phones or giving it away for free. That's probably just a USA thing. After all, why would Apple care, how much retailers are selling the iPhone for? They are getting their money regardless.

When they want to, Apple will discount their products. For whatever reason, they just aren't in that much of a competition in the US that they have to. I would not be surprised though, to see last gen iPhones going for free after the iPhone HD launch.
post #149 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Glad someone else noticed that.

Apple's only response was to try to change the subject.

Yes, I recognized that rather than enter into a lengthy discussion about the myriad reasons why NPD's data are very likely inaccurate and NPD's conclusions are completely wrong, Apple chose to highlight the indisputable opportunity the iPhone presents to developers as compared to Android, Blackberry, Symbian, Palm, WinMo, yada-yada-yada. For apps, App-le is still the market leader.
post #150 of 226
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Originally Posted by anonymous guy View Post

Unfortunately, consumers would rather pay less for consumer goods than pay a premium to ensure the good welfare of the worker.

Sad and true. We are all guilty of this short sightedness.
Just as an curiousity, I wonder how much more these goods would cost if assembled here.

Balanced trade is good thing... free trade(trade imbalances) there is always a winner and loser. We Americans are losing in long run, but appears good in short run. Sigh.
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post #151 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Is that relevant though? Sure there's lots of free apps. But as a developer you can have Google take a cut and put it on Android Market or you can sell it right off your website and pay Google nothing. So sales on Android Market and even the number of apps is not directly comparable to Apple per se.

I just want to know how many paying customers there are for apps on Android phones. I don't actually care whether the App is sold in the Market or on a website. No point selling anywhere if no one is buying, is there?

If I'm a developer, why isn't what I'm asking relevant?

If I'm an investor looking to finance a developer, why isn't what I'm asking relevant?

Is the fragmentation, carrier control over OS upgrades, limited app memory, and refunds killing the market for paid Apps? Is this true or not? Enough with words, show me the money.
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post #152 of 226
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Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

What if you want to compare the number of phones sold with iPhone OS to the number of phones sold with Android OS?

It's not really all that hard.

Well, actually it is if you only want US sales and Android handset makers and US carriers don't want to reveal them.
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post #153 of 226
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Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

But at this point, it's debatable whether AT&T is hurting or helping Apple. Time will tell whether Steve was incredibly smart or incredibly stupid for signing a 5 year deal. And that's of course assuming there is a deal and all that jazz. I could be totally wrong and be surprised to see a CDMA or AWS iPhone this summer.

No one except some clueless Syracuse News journalist actually believes the 5 year deal is still in effect. Even Nilay Patel of Engadget who dug up the Apple confirmation wrote in his article that he doubts it's in effect because the same USA Today journalist who wrote the original scoop in 2007, wrote a subsequent article about a 3-year deal, and the WSJ wrote about an 1-year extension to the 3-year deal.
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post #154 of 226
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Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Too a point. When you have $40 billion in the bank, I think it's well beyond being profitable so that they can strong and innovative.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't begrudge Apple and their success. I like Apple products. And I love the Mac I am typing on right now.

But I just find it absurd that people go on and on about Apple's profitability (people who are not stockholders that is). Don't they realize, this is their money Apple is talking about? Seriously, do people get this worked up over any other company? Are people glad to pay well over asking price for a house or car?

I really don't see the problem here. There are electronics companies far more profitable than Apple, on a percentage basis. One is Cisco. Microsoft, as a mostly software company is much more profitable than Apple, both on a percentage basis, and in dollars. There are others.

I don't think it's proper to point Apple out, when others aren't being paid attention to. It's not like Apple makes more than their share of profits.

But, there are other companies that are not doing what they should, and so make little profits for their size. That's their problem, not Apple's. Perhaps people should look to them to see what they're doing wrong.
post #155 of 226
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Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

GS are not bloodsuckers, they are in business to make a profit and there are few companies who do it better. It's easy to kick a company when they are being presented as a scapegoat by the government to gain political advantage to push through absurd, ineffectual financial regulations. Have you actually studied the regulations proposed? They are virtually meaningless. You have been played.

From everything I've seen, I would have to say that G/S committed fraud. At this point, it looks pretty definite.

Yes, we do need better, and more regulation. The past administration didn't want to, and the previous congress under Clinton didn't either. That being followed by 12 years of conservative presidencies has screwed the regulatory system. Instead of regulators keeping their thumb on business, as they are supposed to, for the public good, they've become cheerleaders for business. Shameful!
post #156 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitro View Post

Apple is like "comprehensive car insurance policy" from rental car company. you got to be very cautious of what is promised.\

Still much better than anyone else.
post #157 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You say this like it is a bad thing, are you saying you think people with less money than yourself, don't derserve to own a smartphone?

Or are you saying an iPhone is really five times better than a Nokia smartphone with an unsubsidised price of around €100 ?

You're missing the point.

Nokia's getting pounded by the financial industry because of poor, and declining profit, AND marketshare. If this doesn't reverse itself, Nokia will soon be losing money. You think that will be good? If so, for whom?

The same thing is happening to other phone manufacturers. Motorola, Sony-Ericsson, are two big companies that are doing poorly. How long will they last?

If a company produces commodity products, prices get depressed, and they have problems. Look at what happened to Dell. They're teetering.

It's not a question of whether cheap phones should be available or not. Cheap smartphones are here. they're not as good as the more expensive models, but people will buy them. Apple sells its one year old model, which is still better than most smartphones on the market, for $99 here in the States. If some companies abroad want to sell an iPhone for little, or nothing, and suck up the cost, that's their business too.

but every company charges as MUCH as they think they can get. Some can't do that because of reputation, or product quality.

But an unsubsidized smartphone going for €100 is not exactly state of the art. That's why the 3G now sells for less too. Are Nokia's top priced smartphones (I don't know what they go for there, but here they're as much as $700) worth the premium over their €100 model either?
post #158 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoebetech View Post

People loved, Loved, LOVED America-On-Line. They loved the things that they can do on it and it's pleasantly controlled content. Fans would defend it tooth and nail. I just realized, Apple is not mimicking Microsoft, it's mimicking AOL and we all know what happened to AOL. Hopefully Apple is not as delusional and do something about it rather than talk.


AOL was the ONLY game in town when they were on TOP, there was no other company providing what they were doing... but that was way before Gurgle and FAKEBOOK came along

do your homework before you attack APPLE with ORANGES--- APPLE makes things BETTER, not WORSE like everybody else... and by the way.. you want a breath mint PhoneBreath??

BB
post #159 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Would you have Apple discontinue doing business in China? That way all those handling hazardous materials would lose their jobs & die of starvation... if you wer Chinese: Which would you choose, Which is better... worse... unethical?

.


Plus the other point that's completely wrong in the comment being responded to is that wage growth in China has been nothing short of spectacular. 10% per year plus inflation is something most staff would be very happy with as that is some of the biggest pay rises in the world.

To the original commenter, who's ripping of who now??
post #160 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Nokia's getting pounded by the financial industry because of poor, and declining profit, AND marketshare. If this doesn't reverse itself, Nokia will soon be losing money. You think that will be good? If so, for whom?

You know there is a difference between the stock value of a company and their actual financial performance don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If a company produces commodity products, prices get depressed, and they have problems. Look at what happened to Dell. They're teetering.

Now I perfer to think from a consumers point of view, as that is what I am, a consumer. But you can't compare Nokia to Dell, they are different companies, and even though Dell might be trying to sell a smartphone, and while Nokia may be trying to sell a laptop, they are in different markets.

Now in saying that, you do understand that the majority of the world can only afford these "commodity" products that you refer to? And there is only so far the prices of these phones will drop, Nokia won't make a loss on them, or give them away, they are not in the position of other companies to make money on services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's not a question of whether cheap phones should be available or not. Cheap smartphones are here. they're not as good as the more expensive models, but people will buy them. Apple sells its one year old model, which is still better than most smartphones on the market, for $99 here in the States. If some companies abroad want to sell an iPhone for little, or nothing, and suck up the cost, that's their business too.

You say they are not as good as a more expensive model, but is the iPhone really worth five times more than them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But an unsubsidized smartphone going for 100 is not exactly state of the art. That's why the 3G now sells for less too. Are Nokia's top priced smartphones (I don't know what they go for there, but here they're as much as $700) worth the premium over their 100 model either?

You are comparing the subsubisided price of one Nokia phone, to a fully subsidised price of an iPhone?

The iPhone 3G unsubsidised in New Zealand is NZ$950, before taxes that is US$600, five times more expensive than the phone I mentioned, a two year old phone, and you say that is selling for less?
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