Adobe fires back at Apple with open letter, new ad campaign - Page 7

Nicely said. Talk is cheap so naturally this is what Adobe is doing. Meanwhile there is work to be done that won't get done.

I thought it sounded like him, too. I see he's gotten himself banned, yet again.



I agree.



This kind of reminds me Symbiosis episode of ST:TNG where the one world had gotten the other addicted to a harmful drug they thought was a cure.



Did you see Flash 10.1 on Android v2.2 "Froyo" on a Nexus One? In their controlled tests it looks pretty good in regards to stuttering. I have doubts that they have dealt with the issue of battery life or using a decent bit rate. Note that in the video you have to press and hold in the Flash area to divert control from the browser window to the Flash window, one of the many issues surrounding Flash for mouse-less interface.

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http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/11/a...exus-one-vide/ When it does finally drop — 3+ years after Adobe said they have Flash for iPhone ready — won't it only work on just two phones, the Nexus One and Droid Incredible?

Sure thing, I tested some html5 basic animation stuff this morning, and while it worked in general on several browsers, it failed completely on the iphone.

So much for the present! oppps! Guess it's er, in beta or something...

How did Steve Jobs do the HTML5 iAds demonstration on the iPhone then?

-I- can't have it both ways?

_I-... am perfectly fine with NOT having current flash on the iphone, because I totally agree that flash is a dog on it, and shouldn't allowed on it.

I've been consistent with this from the beginning in wrangling with a few of the flash hatin liars I encounter. I don't want to see a crappy flash player on mobile. Why would I.

oh I see a demonstration is ok for apple, but adobe well, it's vapourware.

I'm talking about the basic animation stuff available or being proposed in html5. I've tested quite a few and haven't found any that work very well or at all yet. If there is any post them I'm trying to find some. Not saying there isn't, I'm actually hunting down some thanks.

Flash is good for some things and bad for others. The problem is that 99% of Flash on the web is poorly written and used for the wrong reasons. Not Adobe's fault. The real blame goes to the advertisers and the designers along with the clueless business owners who demand Flash on their home page because they think it looks fancy. Fancy is out utilitarian is in. The times they are a changin'. No need to complain, just be patient. The next shift of trendy is right around the corner along with the next annoying nuisance that will be HTML5 abuse.

What you say is true. But it is an ongoing cat and mouse game, like: Apple vs JailBreakers or Apple vs Pre-iTunes synch.

But, as we move forward into the generation of mobile devices, I think that the tendency will be to use Aggregator apps instead of more generalized web surfing. The user will be able to access content through an app: news through an RSS feeds; scores/highlights through a sports app...

...the way of presenting ads will change. If done right, the user, while seeking some content:

-- will be subtly made aware of something (an ad) that might be of interest to him in particular
-- can choose to view the ad, or not... without losing current place
-- can opt in or out any time
-- can provide feedback, positive and negative, to the ads... to help clean up the neighborhod

I suspect that Apple's walled garden of apps and iAd are steps in this direction.

If they do this well, users will [mostly] be content to stay within the garden, getting what they need without being exposed to the seamy underbelly of "shotgun" advertising that the web is coming to be.

This won't be for everybody, but it should satisfy the needs of a lot of non-techies

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I was wondering about that myself. We hear about all these sites converting for the ipad, but does that also include the iphone most of the time? I mean, once the website converted, did it enable iphone users to watch ABC online for instance?

exactly. I talk clients all the time out of flash, I just talked one who wanted their whole site done in flash, it was nuts. I have them talked down to a site developed in joomla, but they insisted on a main page flash banner. So, I'll do my usual trick of swfObject and create good non flash content.

Flash is absolutely overused, there are great applications for it, the overuse is not doing it any favors at all really.

Well I'm aware the html5 video thing is working well (mot iphone afaik correct me if I'm wrong) but I'm talking about all the other flash stuff, you know the other 90% of flash.

I'll have to disagree with this point of view, because it's elitist.

Not everyone is an Objective C programmer, nor does everyone want to be. And people shouldn't be forced into learning one way when other ways are available. Not everyone has the same education and skillset.

If someone makes a tool that makes your job simpler, you use it. In this case, it means a simplified approach to programming that makes development accessible to ordinary people. If you try to argue against accessibility, you'll lose.

Now, it's another argument entirely if they want to program in Flash and the Flash engine is inherently buggy and slow. That's Adobe's problem. But if you want to use NimbleKit or PhoneKit, tools that are allowable under the new Terms of Use, you shouldn't be hassled by Objective C purists.

Are you referring to animation?

Show us!

I thought Objective C was a prerequisite for software engineering in college.

Just more lies from him. To "fail completely" is to crash the browser, not to move slowly or not be interactive as nearly all the HTML5 Canvas animations I've seen were designed for a desktop browser with a mouse point for interaction with desktop power. It doesn't even have HW acceleration yet. But he'll still keep trying to spin HTML5 as being Canvas despite HTML5 being alive and well.

How many times do you need to repeat yourself only to be corrected, -again-.

I never said canvas, was all of html5. Did you get that? Is that clear?

I am focusing, on the parts of html5, that involve animations etc., that will be used to "replace flash". k? Is that clear now?

Now I know this is a toughie of a concept. Tough. wooo. phew. But you'll get it at some point. Maybe you'll repeat yourself a few more times. I've seen you do it so, don't worry, I won't be surprised.

Now if someone could be kind enough, to post an html5 site using the animations, and I mean a fairly good one, that I can test on an iphone. I am looking for one.

Really? I don't think you've been consistent at all. I think you're shifting your position to sidestep your misstatements faster than Michael Flatley's feet move.

Yer Doin' it Wrong.

care to elaborate?


can you post examples of "doin it right"? thx.

OOP (Object oriented programming) concepts are needed for a degree, but a specific language like Objective C isn't. It really depends on where you go. Personally, I think any experience with Objective C points to a very competent college because they aren't limiting you to programming for Windows.

In college, my main experience was with java, VB (6 & .net), C++, pl/sql, and I had an object oriented design class that focused on many different languages including pseudo code. I would have loved to learn some Objective C, though now I'm a java developer so I'm glad I focused on what I did.

Seriously, show us!

He's so stuck on HTML5's Canvas not being ready as proof that none of HTML5 is ready. I see CSS 3D Transforms as a better, more complete example Here are a few examples:

http://webkit.org/blog-files/3d-tran...er-circle.html
http://webkit.org/blog-files/3d-tran...orm-style.html
http://webkit.org/blog-files/3d-tran...ing-cubes.html You can even copy the text elements from them as you'd expect from an open standards solution. The problem with this, Canvas and what is a major issue with Flash that Adobe has tried to hide is the ability to effectively interact with the animation with a touchscreen device.

yep. but what I really love is Adobe's stance that Apple is taking a step back, restricting the web etc.

And yet they love Apple. they are willing to 'dance with the devil', going for the money instead of saying that they feel so strongly about what they perceive as a cult of censorship that they are halting all Mac development and updates until Apple reverses their opinion.

Flash is wonderful. Flash gives us choice. Adobe is doing things right, even if they are lazy. Flash on iPhone is a dog (even though it isn't on iPhone), ...

That's just off the top of my head, and no one knows at this point what your position is, or was yesterday.

if you follow what's happening at all, they haven't hid that at all.

Now I thought you'd repeat yourself, and you didn't disappoint. For the 20th time, we all know html5, parts of it anyway, is currently starting to get used. Unfortunately, you're stuck on repeat.

Once again, I am focusing squarely, on the parts that will replace flash. Mainly, the animation stuff. I want to see html5 sites that replace flash full out.

And out of the 3 links, one worked, one crashed the browser, and the 3rd stuttered pretty hard.

Well at least I got one that worked! Although these are merely concepts.

I have a client who asked me if I could use html5 to do a site similar to flash (he wants it to work on an iphone).

All I have are experiments, some working, some not, but no full real world examples. Any examples?

you need to go through your own posts and count the times you thrown around similar non-arguments... i know you can do better! \

Im not sure he can. He keeps telling everyone else to supply examples, they do, he claims they crashed his browser and wants even more examples. Yet all he can do is be hostile and supply no details or examples himself. Just BS in every post.

Maybe you just don't know what you're doing.

all three work fine on my mac and my iphone. what are you using to test them? IE?

I can't say I'm too surprised that you'd summarize it that way. It tells me, that you are only interested in your own opinion, and being right. Having a discussion, I guess is a little over your head.

No, I've said I like the flash platform, I think the platform is a very platform to develop in. I know it's capabilities, and it hasn't been shown to me at all that html5 is capable of replacing more than some of it's capabilities.

However none of that matters if adobe doesn't release a fully functioning player for mobile. Being part of the industry, I have attended a few major conferences recently, and saw the beta player first hand. What I saw, showed there is a very good possibility they will do it. Sorry that's all I got.

As I said, I'm well aware of the reasons why the current flash player isn't on i-products currently. And never questioned it. I also am not fully against not developing apps in flash.

So, I really don't know why this is so difficult to understand. It seems a handful of you only have the ability to call people adobe shills if they even appear to disagree with your opinions. If you post inaccurate facts, I'll correct them. Only because I'm more interested in hearing what the truth is rather than simply regurgitating BS I read on a blog trying to look smart on a forum.

That's for losers.

no, they work great actually on the mac. In fact I've seen some really cool experiments done in html5 on mac. But the iphone, not so good. Bit then I have a 3G so perhaps it'll run better on 3gs or 4g.

fine? i think you're being generous...

It's just really sad that in Adobe putting a heart in their response, journalists writing about this think that Adobe is showing love to Apple. Look at the headlines - it shows such superficiality.

Beyond the hearts, the Adobe letter is full of lies - the main one being despite all the words, Adobe Flash (registered trademark) is not open; it's proprietary.

MacDailyNews has a great response : http://macdailynews.com/index.php/we...omments/25224/

i have a 3G myself. all three run smooth. maybe you didn't wait until it finished loading...?

Not working in FF

View the source all webkit proprietary code.

Yeah...... that's not an ad campaign. That's a PR campaign. They're not advertising anything, just defaming Apple. Compare the "I'm a Mac/I'm a PC" ads, which, while they mostly are about slagging off Microsoft, do at least assert that Apple's products are better.

They aren't actually claiming to have any interest in freedom to use the web. They say:

"...to choose... what you experience on the web"

See, talking about experience rather than usage, as if they're going to tie your arms to your chair and parade a series of web pages in front of you. "Experience" is a word that suggests animated content, the only element of the web that Flash can claim to be distinctly good at. In that sense - that they care about users encountering as much Flash content as possible - I totally believe them.


Apple sneezing could result in an antitrust inquiry from the US government. Let's not get excited until they've decided whether it actually has sufficient merit to pursue.

As for the open letter...

I think it's fantastic that they're continuing the 19th century metaphor with a sepia photo of them. Maybe this open letter was sent through time???


I suppose they are talking about accessibility, the idea that there could be sections of the web which are not accessible by all.

Frankly, their own closed system does a fine job of proving this point, particularly on mobile devices: without an open Flash execution environment market, if you put Flash content on your site you know that there will be some people who cannot access it (properly), and that limits how much you can make your site integrate with your Flash content, while at the same time the plugin's ubiquity compared to open alternatives forces some people to have their creativity constrained by using Adobe's tools.


Okay Adobe, I want you to compel all OS and browser makers to bundle a Spectrum emulator browser plug-in. Oh, are you not so interested in my freedom now?


If it's an open market, there are no clones. Clone products are society's reaction to the limitations of closed markets. Apple clones (or would a better term be Mac clones?) came about because people wanted Apple products, but availability, price or features made them less desirable. Even though Apple granted the clone makers legitimacy by allowing resale of their OS, it was always a closed system because Apple's own products were the standard.

Let us not forget that Microsoft "out-innovated the pack" too, with Internet Explorer and with Java. Open market? I don't think so.


Note that "creativity and technical innovation" means changing the spec, which suppresses everyone else's innovation because they spend all their time trying to maintain compatibility.

Apple does happily publish the specifications for iPhone applications (I'm sure that Adobe are not trying to assert that they should be able to make their own iPhones), with the admitted exception of some frameworks, and certainly can't be said to be both uncreative and uninnovative. Even if Apple's behaviour were consistent with Adobe's outlandish claims, by championing javascript and HTML5 (of which there are a few competing implementations) over Flash they vastly increase the chance of web content being accessible on mobile devices, since that means that mobile device makers would not be at the mercy of Adobe's unfathomable interest in supporting their OS and would rather be able to choose something suitable from a variety of different browser rendering engines.

I've got to say, Adobe's convinced me: for the future of the web, content needs to be standards-based, and thus not Flash.

Show us already!

I'll try rebooting the phone later and give it another go.

wonderful. Soooo, this needs to be developed more than once, to support all browsers????