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Adobe fires back at Apple with open letter, new ad campaign - Page 8

post #281 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Not working in FF

View the source all webkit proprietary code.

It's not "webkit proprietary code". It's currently only supported in Webkit because of where and why it was created, and it being part of CSS3, which is still very new and a working draft. I'm not even sure Chrome yet supports it which is Webkit-based. It's easy to code while using low resources so I expect this one to pass and be widely adopted. You can't expect everyone to adopt something out of the gate. I gate Adobe 2 years to get Flash straightened out. All I heard were promises. It's now been almost 3.5 years and it's still not available for a single Android phone.

http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-3d-transforms/
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post #282 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

wonderful. Soooo, this needs to be developed more than once, to support all browsers????

it would definitely work on more mobile browsers than flash, if that's where you getting at...
post #283 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Not working in FF

View the source all webkit proprietary code.

could you look at the source code if it were flash?
post #284 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

it would definitely work on more mobile browsers than flash, if that's where you getting at...

but you'd need to support all of them. It seems like things have gotten worse here as a developer.

So you want to something cool. I guess the only option at this point, develop the flash for desktop, and redirect to a mobile dumbed down version for now.
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post #285 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Because Apple first criticized THEM for a product that doesn't exist.

no they didn't. Apple criticized the current and all prior versions of Flash. Adobe replied with 'but the next version' which hasn't released yet. And thus, since it hasn't released, it's very dang hard, for Adobe to substantiate their claims that it works great.

the fact is that Adobe has never hidden that they are Windows focused. They do that version first then slap on a few lines of code to make it work (more or less) on Apple. Not just Flash but everything. Despite the fact that as much as half their sales go to Mac users they have never optimized their software for the Mac OS. And seem to have no intention to.

But instead of dealing with that issue, they are trying to play emotional games to make themselves look like good guys, etc
post #286 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

wonderful. Soooo, this needs to be developed more than once, to support all browsers????

That is how the web development has always been since the days of Netscape vs. Explorer. Not likely to change anytime soon. If you do use Flash or you do use HTML5 you should budget some development time for fall back content. Only the most basic html pages can be expected to render well in ALL browsers.

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post #287 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's not "webkit proprietary code". It's currently only supported in Webkit because of where and why it was created, and it being part of CSS3, which is still very new and a working draft. I'm not even sure Chrome yet supports it which is Webkit-based. It's easy to code while using low resources so I expect this one to pass and be widely adopted. You can't expect everyone to adopt something out of the gate. I gate Adobe 2 years to get Flash straightened out. All I heard were promises. It's now been almost 3.5 years and it's still not available for a single Android phone.
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-3d-transforms/

oh so you finally admit, that things aren't worked out, it's a draft.

Do you have a timeline as to when developers can use this to target all browsers at once? When will this actually "kill flash" on the desktop?
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post #288 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

What ever you do to try to block ads, there will be a workaround developed by the people who have a different agenda. Example: Gordon.js can run Flash ads even on an iPhone and is not detected by Click to Flash, not that many are using that method presently.

Once advertising income is being lost due to blocking, they will just come up with another even more insidious method of delivering them. Kind of makes you wonder how prevalent Flash blocking really is, since the advertisers don't seem to be showing any signs of moving away from Flash to HTML5.

Jailbreak -> Change root and mobile passwords -> install openssh -> use Transmit (SFTP mode) to copy hosts from iPhone/iPod/iPad to desktop -> edit hosts file and add contents from here -> copy hosts file back to iDevice -> WINNER (even gets rid of stupid admob ads in free apps)!

Even easier on desktop.

Bonus points: point google.com to bing's ip address so that searches in Safari go to bing, just to break the Google addiction
post #289 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

could you look at the source code if it were flash?

Yes unless the author deliberately encrypted it with third party tools and even then some of those tools do not encrypt that well.

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post #290 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

That is how the web development has always been since the days of Netscape vs. Explorer. Not likely to change anytime soon. If you do use Flash or you do use HTML5 you should budget some development time for fall back content. Only the most basic html pages can be expected to render well in ALL browsers.

tell me something I don't know.

As I said, flash content for enabled browsers, and then swfObject alt content and redirect for mobile.
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post #291 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I can't say I'm too surprised that you'd summarize it that way. ...

No, I should think not, if you have any memory of your posts.
post #292 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

but you'd need to support all of them. It seems like things have gotten worse here as a developer.

So you want to something cool. I guess the only option at this point, develop the flash for desktop, and redirect to a mobile dumbed down version for now.

i personally don't think that's the way to go. the days of frivolous eye-candy are over. i know there are some things you can do in flash that aren't yet possible (at least easily) to do in other ways. if you really look at usability though, i think there's always an easier, more efficient way to deliver information. how many times have you found the info you were really looking for on the google result page, without ever visiting the originating site?

restaurants are a good example. they often do their entire sites in flash, with mind numbing animated floating text and useless pan & scans. when you're just looking for their hours, address, and maybe want to have a look at their menus, why bother delivering goo to potential customers and block mobile users in the process? looks to me like somebody oversold them... we need to educate our clients and convince them that usability always trumps visual complexity. if they buy an iphone, they'll figure that out themselves rather quickly.

just my $0.02.
post #293 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

it would definitely work on more mobile browsers than flash, if that's where you getting at...

Devices that support CSS3 3D Transforms: ~90,000,000
Devices that support Flash 10.1: zero, zip, nada, none, nothing, nil, naught, nought; informal zilch, nix, zip, nada, diddly-squat, zilch
Devices that will support Flash 10.1: The number of Nexus One and Droid Incredibles sold to date? How many is that?
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post #294 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

No, I should think not, if you have any memory of your posts.

you just gotta laugh when people resort to the teenager flamer talk.

Grow up and get back to the discussion table. What I summarized was easy to understand.
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post #295 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

i personally don't think that's the way to go. the days of frivolous eye-candy are over. i know there are some things you can do in flash that aren't yet possible (at least easily) to do in other ways. if you really look at usability though, i think there's always an easier, more efficient way to deliver information. how many times have you found the info you were really looking for on the google result page, without ever visiting the originating site?

restaurants are a good example. they often do their entire sites in flash, with mind numbing animated floating text and useless pan & scans. when you're just looking for their hours, address, and maybe want to have a look at their menus, why bother delivering goo to potential customers and block mobile users in the process? looks to me like somebody oversold them... we need to educate our clients and convince them that usability always trumps visual complexity. if they buy an iphone, they'll figure that out themselves rather quickly.

just my $0.02.

obviously, you don't run a web shop.
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post #296 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's not "webkit proprietary code". It's currently only supported in Webkit because of where and why it was created, and it being part of CSS3, which is still very new and a working draft. I'm not even sure Chrome yet supports it which is Webkit-based. It's easy to code while using low resources so I expect this one to pass and be widely adopted. You can't expect everyone to adopt something out of the gate. I gate Adobe 2 years to get Flash straightened out. All I heard were promises. It's now been almost 3.5 years and it's still not available for a single Android phone.
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-3d-transforms/


Code:



-webkit-animation-name: x-spin;
-webkit-animation-duration: 7s;
-webkit-animation-iteration-count: infinite;
-webkit-animation-timing-function: linear;



What part of this code is not webkit proprietary code. Like I said LOOK at the source code it is webkit only all over the place

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post #297 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yes unless the author deliberately encrypted it with third party tools and even then some of those tools do not encrypt that well.

thanks. do you have to own adobe's flash to read the source? are there usable alternatives to adobe's tools for all platforms?
post #298 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

obviously, you don't run a web shop.

obviously you are a flash developer.
post #299 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

thanks. do you have to own adobe's flash to read the source? are there usable alternatives to adobe's tools for all platforms?

Yes, and not to my knowledge.

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post #300 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

oh so you finally admit, that things aren't worked out, it's a draft.

Do you have a timeline as to when developers can use this to target all browsers at once? When will this actually "kill flash" on the desktop?

1) This is the first time CSS3 has been mentioned.

2) The timeline is up to them but you'll likely still claim that because Apple created it that it's proprietary.

3) No one is talking about killing Flash on the desktop or otherwise. Adobe is the only one killing Flash in any way, shape or form. Everyone else is talking about better, more efficent ways to push data across the web. You're the one with the smarmy remarks trying to make it into some personal war that can only be seen in black or white.
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post #301 of 448
That's good. I'm glad you are happy. You can put this into the 'I'm happy for you' part of your day. As for me, I don't give a crack about running Flash. So 'it's good for me.' today too!

Imagine that. To each their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yesiCan View Post

I'm so glad I bought a new 13" MacBook Pro that plays flash rather than an iPad that doesn't.
For $300 more I got the whole kit and kaboodle.
post #302 of 448
I'm still waiting for an example of your HTML5 animation that failed on an iPhone but worked in some browsers. Is THAT hard to understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

you just gotta laugh when people resort to the teenager flamer talk.

Grow up and get back to the discussion table. What I summarized was easy to understand.
post #303 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronHeadSlim View Post

I'm still waiting for an example of your HTML5 animation that failed on an iPhone but worked in some browsers. Is THAT hard to understand?


I wrote an HTML5 test page and I was immediately confronted with one very annoying problem with the canvas tag on iPhone. In my test, once I pinched zoomed to the point where my canvas filled the iPhone screen. I could not zoom out as the canvas tag itself for some reason is unresponsive to the pinch.

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post #304 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

What I summarized was easy to understand.

Not really, I still have no idea what you are ranting about exactly. Maybe you should take some time and try to express yourself clearly. If you have a good point, people might agree with you. If not, they will rip it to shreds.
post #305 of 448
My last thought on this mess...Adobe, just get off your butts and make a great mobile Flash product that EVERYONE wants. Not just your Flash Camp groupies. Make it so good, and so wonderful that Apple just can't NOT support it. End of story. All done. Until that time, just keep quiet and work so hard that you will be too tired to spread BS. Work so hard that your Flash Camp Graduates will actually have something to be proud of. Work so hard that the employees that blog for you for a living actually have the ability to point to what a great mobile Flash product looks like and works like in the real world. Work so hard that you actually have shipping versions that the public falls in love with. That people say 'Hey, I don't want the internet unless it's got this here Flashy thing running on it'.

Make it so great that everyone is blown away with the quality of the product. Make it so great that Steve Jobs even says, 'Wow. that's working well. and with no impact on battery life'.

Make it so great that no other technology can compete. Make it so great that it is obvious why, after 3 plus years of iPhone like devices there isn't a Flash solution on all the platforms. Make it so wonderful that there just is no reason to do anything with a real language, or low level tools.

Make that happen. Then I will eat my iPad.
post #306 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesiCan View Post

??? Meanwhile Steve Jobs' Disney website it chock full of FLASH.

The fallacy in your comment is that Jobs and Apple didn't create the website. Disney did. Jobs sold them Pixar years back, got some stock and a place on the Board. but he is not the end all and be all decision maker. He's a consultant at best.

Now if Apple's website used Flash you might be onto something. But it doesn't. It uses Gianduia, a javascript based language for web apps which they started about a year ago and have already rolled out on their site. Go place a Genius Bar appointment and you'll see it in action.

Once they get the bugs worked out, you'll probably see it turning up on other sites, including perhaps even Disney. But as is Apple's style, they don't release things just to release them, they want to feel like it is as close to perfect as they can get without real world feedback.
post #307 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) This is the first time CSS3 has been mentioned.

2) The timeline is up to them but you'll likely still claim that because Apple created it that it's proprietary.

3) No one is talking about killing Flash on the desktop or otherwise. Adobe is the only one killing Flash in any way, shape or form. Everyone else is talking about better, more efficent ways to push data across the web. You're the one with the smarmy remarks trying to make it into some personal war that can only be seen in black or white.

slippery.

Q, is html5 a standard yet? no

is CSS3 a standard yet? no

I have heard ad nausem about how flash is going to get replaced. on the desktop. Because, as you guys have shrieked 400 billion times, there is no flash to replace on mobile as of yet...

I haven't made it personal at all. Apparently, I'm the adobe shill for pointing out the truth here.

You just don't see it. You're pushing a technology as a flash killer that isn't even a standard yet, one that isn't supported thoughout the desktop browser even.

nd then, in the next breath, you complain that flash player isn't out of beta. It's a stupid flawed arguement.

I'd rather see some comparisons as to what htnl5 -and- CSS3 (happy now?) can do.

Anyway, I work to do, I've wasted far too much time going circles here to hear how smart you are.

I guess you have a better crystal ball to see where things will be in a year.
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post #308 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenclaw View Post

I'll have to disagree with this point of view, because it's elitist.

Not everyone is an Objective C programmer, nor does everyone want to be. And people shouldn't be forced into learning one way when other ways are available. Not everyone has the same education and skillset.

If someone makes a tool that makes your job simpler, you use it. In this case, it means a simplified approach to programming that makes development accessible to ordinary people. If you try to argue against accessibility, you'll lose.

Now, it's another argument entirely if they want to program in Flash and the Flash engine is inherently buggy and slow. That's Adobe's problem. But if you want to use NimbleKit or PhoneKit, tools that are allowable under the new Terms of Use, you shouldn't be hassled by Objective C purists.

No one said that Obj-C was your only choice. It IS, however, clear that programming in a supported language, using approved tools is much more likely to get you a robust, supported app - which is what Apple wants to achieve. The emulated, runtime crapware just isn't any good - in Apple's experience and the experience of most developers.

It's one thing on a desktop with 4 GB of RAM and a multi-GHz processor. It's quite another on a resource-limited mobile device.
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post #309 of 448
he might run a 'web shop' that actually cares about the quality and portability of the information. Of course he may not be able to charge the ridiculous fees for Flash 'animations' that have so endeared people to the magic that is 'Flash development'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

obviously, you don't run a web shop.
post #310 of 448
Elitist? That if you work in technology you might want to learn, like, programming? And just maybe a variety of languages? So learning things and being educated and having the ability to work at a lower level on a system is elitist?

Weird. I'd say it;'s the opposite. It supports those who are most able to compete. It's only elitist if you consider competition elitist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

No one said that Obj-C was your only choice. It IS, however, clear that programming in a supported language, using approved tools is much more likely to get you a robust, supported app - which is what Apple wants to achieve. The emulated, runtime crapware just isn't any good - in Apple's experience and the experience of most developers.

It's one thing on a desktop with 4 GB of RAM and a multi-GHz processor. It's quite another on a resource-limited mobile device.
post #311 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

You just don't see it. You're pushing a technology as a flash killer that isn't even a standard yet, one that isn't supported thoughout the desktop browser even.

Again, Adobe is the only one killing Flash because they thought nothing could topple their monopoly position.

Quote:
nd then, in the next breath, you complain that flash player isn't out of beta. It's a stupid flawed arguement.

I've commented that Flash for mobiles isn't even a PUBLIC Beta. All we have are controlled demos, most of them a joke. We have Flash 10.1 for the desktop still in beta and I can attest that it's better than 10.0. I have stated stats and direct comparisons in other threads. Shown proof of it being better than the previous version. You have shown no proof.
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post #312 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Fearing View Post

he might run a 'web shop' that actually cares about the quality and portability of the information. Of course he may not be able to charge the ridiculous fees for Flash 'animations' that have so endeared people to the magic that is 'Flash development'.

Actually coding in HTML5 is way more costly because there are no intuitive development tools, so Flash wins hands down on the time required to complete an application comparison.

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post #313 of 448
That is what I'm looking for, useful and helpful information. Not useless rhetoric. Thank you very much. I'm just starting out with web development. I have Master Suite CS4. I like Dreamweaver a lot I use Flash. I am also working through PHP/MySQL and Javascript. I am trying to use CSS instead of building everything with tables. Thanks again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I wrote an HTML5 test page and I was immediately confronted with one very annoying problem with the canvas tag on iPhone. In my test, once I pinched zoomed to the point where my canvas filled the iPhone screen. I could not zoom out as the canvas tag itself for some reason is unresponsive to the pinch.
post #314 of 448
Dammit, why are the interesting comments always at the end of the thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

Sure thing, I tested some html5 basic animation stuff this morning, and while it worked in general on several browsers, it failed completely on the iphone.

"Basic animation" means different things to different people. The iPhone already (OS 3.1) has fairly strong HTML5 support, and actually started off that way - bear in mind that originally, iPhone apps meant basically dashboard widgets, which were I think the motivation for creating <canvas>.

So while your implementation may not work, there's a fair chance that your idea would. Keep in mind that the iPhone version of WebKit is, at best, frozen at the date of the latest major release, and in practice for QA reasons will be some months older than that. Apparently vanilla Safari 4.0.5 has WebKit 531; iPhone OS 3.1.2 has WebKit 528. Anything that was created or standardised or became popular after that point certainly won't be implemented.

Personally, the part I find most potentially useful about HTML5 is the offline storage API, and that most definitely does work on the iPhone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Flash is good for some things and bad for others. The problem is that 99% of Flash on the web is poorly written and used for the wrong reasons. Not Adobe's fault.

I agree that poorly-written Flash is a common problem (mostly, I suspect, because most Flash creators can program nothing more complex than common VBA), but I don't think you can say that's not at all Adobe's fault. They do provide creation software which, arcane though it is in some ways, presents a big friendly non-programmy interface by default, which encourages use by programming novices and hinders understanding of its underlying behaviour. They also could definitely interpret ActionScript code in a way which does JIT optimisation of basically shitty code, just as recent browsers do with Javascript: you may be using needless fixed-length loops, declaring variables like crazy and not implementing a jot of caching, but nowadays the browser will just silently sort that all out for you, to considerable performance improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenclaw View Post

I'll have to disagree with this point of view, because it's elitist.

I was going to make a big long reply to this, about how pragmatic Objective-C is and how extremely reasonable web apps via Dashcode (or by hand!) are, but in short, yeah, agreed, complaints about opinions of Flash developers who wouldn't know program code if it slapped them in the face are elitist, although more from a "people who know how to do more than click on buttons" position than an "Objective-C programmers" one.

I think that would-be Flash programmers should be completely welcomed as HTML5+javascript programmers, but I don't think that gives them the right to complain that they can't pretend to be native application programmers in any context beyond functionality that's available to them. On that note, I do firmly think that Apple should allow "web apps" on the App Store.
post #315 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfryd View Post

"No company -- no matter how big or how creative -- should dictate what you can create, how you create it, or what you can experience on the web."


Adobe is correct. No one should be the end all and be all of how we create etc.

Which is why I'm so happy that Apple is promoting HTML5. Because it is raising awareness and showing folks like myself that there are other tools out there.

So now I am not stuck with using Flash etc because 'what else can i use'. I can choose to use Flash, or make an app, or use HTML5 or whatever depending on what works best for the audience I want to create for. I can choose whether a particular group is worth the time and money to give them a perfect experience or just skip them cause it's not worth it

look at CBS for example. They chose to convert their site to HTML5. Because they want to reach all computer and mobile users. And it was deemed more cost effective than making a Flash heavy website and optimized apps for every mobile OS.
post #316 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Again, Adobe is the only one killing Flash because they thought nothing could topple their monopoly position.


I've commented that Flash for mobiles isn't even a PUBLIC Beta. All we have are controlled demos, most of them a joke. We have Flash 10.1 for the desktop still in beta and I can attest that it's better than 10.0. I have stated stats and direct comparisons in other threads. Shown proof of it being better than the previous version. You have shown no proof.

do you always brow beat people for proof of an unreleased product? Show proof that the next iphone will so much better than the next droid. Show proof that ipad 2.0 won't be a flat bust.

You know damn well there is no such thing, as "proof' in an unreleased product, regardless of who it is. The truth is, and it's been told to you many times, there are indications that this player will be a good player. That's all we have right now, so you're just going to have to wait.

In the same vein, so far all we have are indications of the completed spec. There's no guarantees it will be fully supported by all browsers without any hiccups, certainly, if history is any indication.

The mewling and shrieking for proof is just stupid.
What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
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What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
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post #317 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavasplash View Post

f
btw the only thing worth while for flash is "farm ville"

and rumor has it they are making an app (and probably will for all their games). getting $$$ from ipad etc users is more important to them than being Flash Cultists.
post #318 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

do you always brow beat people for proof of an unreleased product? Show proof that the next iphone will so much better than the next droid. Show proof that ipad 2.0 won't be a flat bust.

You know damn well there is no such thing, as "proof' in an unreleased product, regardless of who it is. The truth is, and it's been told to you many times, there are indications that this player will be a good player. That's all we have right now, so you're just going to have to wait.

In the same vein, so far all we have are indications of the completed spec. There's no guarantees it will be fully supported by all browsers without any hiccups, certainly, if history is any indication.

The mewling and shrieking for proof is just stupid.

i think your choice of words throughout this and other threads disqualify you from claiming to want a reasonable discussion.
post #319 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

do you always brow beat people for proof of an unreleased product? Show proof that the next iphone will so much better than the next droid. Show proof that ipad 2.0 won't be a flat bust.

You're the one claiming it's proven so we want you to prove it. Pretty fraking straightforward.

No one here has made claims about unannounced products so we wouldn't say that the next iPhone or iPad will or won't be better.

Most of here like to use facts that are backed up. You should try it sometime.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #320 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

i think your choice of words throughout this and other threads disqualify you from claiming to want a reasonable discussion.

oh I think with this person reasonable discussion clearly isn't possible. This one called me a liar and adobe shill some time ago.

If someone wants to have some reasonable discussion I'm all good for it.
What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
Reply
What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
Reply
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