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Adobe fires back at Apple with open letter, new ad campaign - Page 3

post #81 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

That was why I used the example of a different device, I'm fine with not using Flash on an iPhone, however I'm not fine with Adobe denying the choice of other device users.

Should Adobe be held accountable for restricting the Internet for everyone who doesn't have a device capable of handling their software?

They are the one's making the claims.

How about the visually impaired, by taking this stance are Adobe also denying the freedom of people who can't use screen readers with Flash content?

It's some pretty big claims Adobe is throwing out there.

Well-put!
post #82 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesiCan View Post

??? Meanwhile Steve Jobs' Disney website it chock full of FLASH.

That's right, that's too funny! Try out this http://home.disney.co.uk/ with having clicktoflash or another flash blocker installed!
post #83 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by trip1ex View Post

Apple loves Adobe too.

What they don't love is anyone a creating resource hogging, battery draining lowest common denominator technology that creates a sub-par experience for the consumer.

Agree!
post #84 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesiCan View Post

NY TImes still uses Flash on the web:

http://video.nytimes.com/video/playl...115/index.html

and you were trying to say?

My iPad has no problem with those videos. Are you sure you're not using a JooJoo?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/khurt/4604141538/sizes/o/
post #85 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

I ♥ Adobe. But I hate it when a company forces its users to use 25 year old, buggy software

... besides... who exactly is Warnock etc. talking about when they say that somebody is taking people's freedom away. WTF??!!

Apple is taking away the freedom to create??!!

Adobe's way or no way??!!

Give me a break, Adobe. You run your company your way and give Apple the freedom to run their company their way.

Why didn't Adobe run an ad that informs everyone about the strengths of Flash (maybe because they couldn't).

What a bunch of losers!
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post #86 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831 View Post

... Adobe is just pounding their head against a brick wall. Apple has shut out Flash from its mobile devices. End of discussion.

(It should be noted that most mobile technology companies also have shut out Flash. It's not just Apple.)

Actually, none of them have shut out Flash. Flash has shut itself out by being unsuitable on mobile technology, on every mobile platform, in every mobile browser. The idea that Adobe will somehow fix this so that Flash will become ubiquitous on mobile platforms is ludicrous. They can't even support 3 non-mobile platforms (Windows, Mac, Linux) properly, so what are the chances they'll be able to properly support iPhone OS, Android, WinPhone7, WinMob, BlackBerry, Symbian, et al., in addition? The obvious conclusion is that there is zero chance. Flash is already dead and Adobe need to break out of their state of denial and prepare for the future, or they won't be part of it.
post #87 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Android 2.2 has most definitely NOT been shown to run Flash 'just fine'. A couple of tightly controlled clips show it not crashing (after others that show it exploding like the 4th of July.) Hardly a consumer ready product. Pre beta at best.
And those clips do NOT show that it remains anything other than a battery suck.

Frankly, Adobe is the last entity I want representing my needs, being the #1 pusher on the internet of ads and porn.

First of all, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y7XJI4NN7k

Secondly, I asked someone to show me video it it crashing and they showed me a video of a reviewer who later posted they had hit the home button and that flash didn't crash. When the argument arose that he could be lying, the fact remained that in Android, you get a message when an app crashes, and there was no such message.

As to your assertion that Adobe is pushing porn and ads, you had to have known how stupid this sounded when you posted it. OBVIOUSLY html5 can handle video and ads, so if Apple is pushing HTML5, by your logic, they also are pushing ads and porn. Ugh, why did I even respond to that sentence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetim View Post

Actually we need something similar to flash that is open and works with mobile devices. Since adobe was only counting the money instead of getting ready for the mobile future, then let some other technologies take it over. If Adobe can get something out this year that is not a piece of junk on mobile devices, then fine. Apple will probably allow it.

I'm game. I fully accept any new standard that wants to step up to the plate, and that companies are willing to make an effort to make work on mobile. The fact remains, however, the web as it is today makes use of flash a lot, so ultimately a mobile device supporting it seamlessly is ideal for a "full web experience."


Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Um yeah, that's pretty much exactly what's happening.
And Flash is not 'the full internet'... its a proprietary cul de sac. The hubris of Adobe to claim that THEY define what the internet is.

No, it isn't, and to say so means you have absolutely no grasp on how big the internet really is. A few major sites convert to html5 for the much hyped ipad launch and now the whole web is converting? Nope.

As far as Adobe's flash being proprietary, fine, I personally don't care. If something free comes out that can replace it, that's great, so long as it actually does. My take on the whole thing is simple: If html5 was as popular as flash, I'd be the guy screaming for html5 to work on mobile devices. The fact is though, Flash is still dominant, and it will be that way for a while, especially if Adobe gets it working on Android and shows people they won't need to rebuild their websites to accommodate mobile devices.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Yeah, it'll definitely get flash, an LED flash.

Here's hoping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryb View Post

From what I read about the flash demo on an Android phone could not be defined as "just fine" The phone was kept plugged into a power supply for the whole demo most likely to disguise Flash power drain, and there were crashes. All of this on a high end high powered device that very few phones could match in hardware specs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y7XJI4NN7k

Show me where you see it plugged in. Now I'm not saying it ISN'T plugged in, just that it's not a valid argument since it can neither be confirmed or denied.

What I DO know, however, is what a few people with droid incredibles have said, and that is the radio that drains the device. True of any smart phone. In other words, streaming music to your phone will drain the battery as much as streaming flash video. We just have to wait to confirm this, but I'm willing to accept its an Android fan making stuff up to keep up the hype.


Quote:
Originally Posted by macdawg75 View Post

Right, which is why it crashes on Android 2.2...not just fine. Also, if you noticed the demo...the phone was plugged in. Personally, I like the idea that the iPhone is mobile which means I can be out and about for extended times. Suspect that Android was plugged in so the demo didn't show the battery drain. If they didn't have anything to hide, they would have shown it mobile like a phone should be.

Perhaps that's what Adobe is considering getting into...the huge battery pak business. By a huge battery pak to keep Flash operating while you take your cell phone mobile. Would love to see that media campaign.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y7XJI4NN7k lol

It didn't crash, and like I said before to the other guy, the only video I've shown of it crashing turned out NOT to be crashing. The guy hit the home or back button or something on the tablet, and furthermore, there was no confirmation message that the app had crashed.

CPU doesn't drain the battery like the radio does. If you're out and about with your iphone streaming internet music all day, you'll probably use the same amount of battery as streaming flash video. Probably less since you can turn the screen off, but you get my point.
post #88 of 448
"No company -- no matter how big or how creative -- should dictate what you can create, how you create it, or what you can experience on the web."


In other words I should be able to use GoLive for developing my web sites, and Freehand for my vector graphics

No company should be able to tell me that I need to switch away from these popular products and start using DreamWeaver and Illustrator instead.

I guess that Adobe is going to show the world that they mean what they say by bringing back Golive and FreeHand.


On the other hand, perhaps Adobe really meant that only Adobe should be allowed to artificially limit creative choices?
post #89 of 448
Then why wont Adobe release the source code for Flash to the community so it can be reassembled into something more useful?
post #90 of 448
Let me break it down for you,

Adobe is publicly criticising Apple for denying people choice of content in their vision of the Internet.

OK, you got that?

Now if Adobe is not supporting other devices (which have nothing to do with Apple), who is denying the choice that Adobe is holding out as so important for Internet users on those other devices?

Adobe has shot themselves in the foot with this latest stance.

Now do you get it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

How exactly, is adobe "denying choice"? You don't -have- to run flash. You could install click4Flash or simply uninstall the plugin. Is there an adobe "shill" sitting next to you preventing you from, excersizing choice?
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Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #91 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribbean_mac View Post

wow this must be hurting adobe

"Take, out the papers and the Flash, er.. Trash...
--- Or you don't get no spending' cash!
If you don't scrub that kitchen floor,
--- You ain't gonna rock and roll no more!

Yakitty, Yak... Don't talk back!"

http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/kid...es/id258120820

.
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #92 of 448
It's just a fantastic tactic of Adobe: they pretend to support flash now for the next couple of months while secretly producing a magical HTML5 tool. Before christmas they will officially kill flash, everybody will be highly relieved, love Adobe forever and purchase their new HTML5 tool like crazy.
post #93 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

Apple has sold 85 million iPhones and Touches to people who knew in advance those devices didn't support flash. I think the people have spoken emphatically how they feel about flash and its relevancy. We can tally up the iPad sales at the end of the year.

Correction: Apple has sold 85 million iPhones and Touches, the vast majority of the owners don't even know what flash is, what it means to support it, or what it does. everyone posting on tech blogs needs to understand that WE are 0.01% of the people purchasing these products. i guarantee that more than 3/4ths [and probably closer to 95%] of the users have no idea why some sites that view fine on their PC don't come up on their iPhone.
post #94 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesiCan View Post

Really ? Which one's- Virgin airlines?
Hulu hasn't , NY Times hasn't, porn most definitely hasn't .

Maybe you care to surf porn on the streetcar but I sure as hell don't.
As for sites that take advantage of HTML5? Check this: http://www.apple.com/ipad/ready-for-ipad/
Not necessarily switchers, but certainly Flash avoiders. btw, New York Times is on this list.
post #95 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adobe

That's why we actively support technologies like HTML4, HTML5, CSS, and H.264, in addition to our own technologies."

Adobe fought HTML5 tooth and nail, and wanted to neuter it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider

While Apple has kept Flash off of its Web browsers...

This is patently untrue, and AppleInsider should be ashamed of "publishing" falsehoods like this. Flash runs on any modern browser on any version of OSX, including Safari. Flash also runs on Safari for Windows.

Typically, AI is just searching for link bait. This is just basic journalism ethics (or the lack thereof). Sam Oliver (i.e. Prince McLean, i.e. Daniel Eran Dilger) and the rest of AI "editorial staff" should know better.

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

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post #96 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Let me break it down for you,

Adobe is publicly criticising Apple for denying people choice of content in their vision of the Internet.

OK, you got that?

Now if Adobe is not supporting other devices (which have nothing to do with Apple), who is denying the choice that Adobe is holding out as so important for Internet users on those other devices?

Adobe has shot themselves in the foot with this latest stance.

Now do you get it?

no. You made absolutely ZERO sense.

I want to know exactly, how adobe is preventing me, from choosing something. What devices is adobe not supporting, and how is this relevant.?
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What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
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post #97 of 448
I find this letter as a very emotional response. However it does not address the issues as mentioned by Jobs in his letter.

It is a mere tactic to influence the lay person (non-technical) and portray Apple as the wrong doer.

I would have loved to see a real response point to point Jobs "Thoughts on Flash".
post #98 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by tania View Post

why is Adobe criticizing Apple for not supporting a product that doesn't exist?

For the same reason Steve is criticising a product which does not exist.
post #99 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

no. You made absolutely ZERO sense.

I want to know exactly, how adobe is preventing me, from choosing something. What devices is adobe not supporting, and how is this relevant.?

Flash does not run on any smart phone to date. And why did Adobe's response not touch on each bullet Mr. Jobs addressed in his first public letter?
post #100 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetim View Post


Adobe please quit writing your childish letters and make flash work on mobile devices.


The 10.1 Beta is out, or will be very soon. They are working.
post #101 of 448
The other thing here is Adobe paid a fortune to buy all the Macromedia products. They killed Freehand but Flash was supposed to be the long term cash cow. If Flash fades on the vine now that will be a bitter pill to swallow.

The other thing is that Adobe has a formidable task in waging a public debate on this against a mind like Steve Jobs. So far its very obvious who is being more articulate here...
post #102 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacApfel View Post

That's right, that's too funny! Try out this http://home.disney.co.uk/ with having clicktoflash or another flash blocker installed!

try it from a mobile device - especially if it has Flash lite installed!

post #103 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

The 10.1 Beta is out, or will be very soon. They are working.

Yeah, we all saw the YouTube video of 10.1 crashing the Android phone at the Web 2.0 conference in San Francisco earlier this month.

http://www.youtube.com/v/3hqFTx8rLsg

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

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post #104 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

This is patently untrue, and AppleInsider should be ashamed of "publishing" falsehoods like this. Flash runs on any modern browser on any version of OSX, including Safari. Flash also runs on Safari for Windows.

Typically, AI is just searching for link bait. This is just basic journalism ethics (or the lack thereof). Sam Oliver (i.e. Prince McLean, i.e. Daniel Eran Dilger) and the rest of AI "editorial staff" should know better.

you sure they weren't talking about iphone os?
post #105 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

The 10.1 Beta is out, or will be very soon. They are working.

I doubt it for mobile. It's pre-alpha quality code currently, for one device. They might put out something called a beta, but there likely won't be beta quality code this calendar year, and, again, that's just on one device. Adobe are so far behind in supporting mobile platforms that it's not possible they will ever catch up.
post #106 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by BC Kelly View Post

.

You say ...

"No company -- no matter how big or how creative -- should dictate what you can create, how you create it, or what you can experience on the web."

.

So ...

Now you'll release ALL your Software for FREE ?

.



.


Can you explain that? How does it follow?
post #107 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Yeah, we all saw the YouTube video of 10.1 crashing the Android phone at the Web 2.0 conference in San Francisco earlier this month.

http://www.youtube.com/v/3hqFTx8rLsg

It's not crashing. Android gives you a dialog when an app crashes.

Here's the reviewer's comment (I really don't see why he would be lying):
*Update: Just wanted to clarify, flash didnt crash here, I just accidentally hit the home button while I was really trying to hit the back button. Android users know that you get an error message if an app crashes, I know because I have a Nexus One. Theres hidden home,back, and power buttons (on the side of the prototype) u do not see in the videos/photos, sorry if that confused any readers.
post #108 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by zindako View Post

Flash does not run on any smart phone to date. And why did Adobe's response not touch on each bullet Mr. Jobs addressed in his first public letter?

really?

Well thanks for that important revelation. If we can figure out how this has to do with choice, we'll be even further ahead.

No is disputing adobe has been lazy, and are under pressure to produce and release a working player. But I keep hearing this thing about being "forced". Personally I see a lot of choices out there. But I'm curious about being "forced.

Forced to what?
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What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
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post #109 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post


And it won't. The shrieking about html5 "replacing" flash is, just shrieking. I don't see many full on flash experiences being replaced, anytime soon.

The point isn't the 'full on flash experience' (whatever that is.)
Its conflating that sideshow of jumping screaming attention grabbers with 'the full web experience'.
Adobe is trying to claim that their porn/ad creation cash machine IS the web. It is most definitely not that.
post #110 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

good GOD it's like you people have zero concept of how software development works. Even the ipad had issues at first.

It's rare for software to work perfectly in beta phase, much less in alpha phase.

Face it: Pointing to flash crashing in the past instead of acknowledging the most recent progress made is really a blatant attempt at keeping yourself willingly misinformed.

they're kinda like lemmings, they keep running and diving off the cliff.

Everyone knows by now that particular demo, was totally unplanned, and he used a phone with an outdated player. But, they need -something- to hang onto, desperately.

So let'im have his wee fun.
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What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
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post #111 of 448
[QUOTE=Solar;1631549

That's the biggest feature missing from the iPad in my opinion.. I was watching a video on it the other morning and it was a bit chilly. I thought to myself "If only this thing would get hot enough to burn my genitalia, then it would be truly magical".[/QUOTE]


Apple has long had heat problems with its portable devices.
post #112 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by macdawg75 View Post

Right, which is why it crashes on Android 2.2...not just fine. Also, if you noticed the demo...the phone was plugged in. Personally, I like the idea that the iPhone is mobile which means I can be out and about for extended times. Suspect that Android was plugged in so the demo didn't show the battery drain. If they didn't have anything to hide, they would have shown it mobile like a phone should be.

Perhaps that's what Adobe is considering getting into...the huge battery pak business. By a huge battery pak to keep Flash operating while you take your cell phone mobile. Would love to see that media campaign.

Something like this?



Optional Shoulder strap:



.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #113 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

The point isn't the 'full on flash experience' (whatever that is.)
Its conflating that sideshow of jumping screaming attention grabbers with 'the full web experience'.
Adobe is trying to claim that their porn/ad creation cash machine IS the web. It is most definitely not that.

well if you don't know what a full flash experience is, well then exercise choice and just use click4flash or simply unistall the plugin! Easy Peasy!
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What I got... 15" i7 w/8 gigs ram,iPad2 64gig wifi, 2.0 mac mini, 2.0 17" imac, appleTv, Still running my old G4 466 upgraded to 1.2GHz maxed ram as a pro tools machine, and 2 iphones.
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post #114 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuntva View Post

Everyone should remember that Flash requires nearly constant updates -- and is the single most frequent cause of security vulnerabilities.

On a PC, I have to deal with a constant flood of updates (sometimes new ones are released before we can complete the prior update -- do we REALLY want this type of mess inflicting the iPad.

I am glad that Apple is pushing the open standards HTML5 -- at least that is likely to work without major updates every few days. They have had many YEARS to issue a stable system and have yet to do so ... their time is past.

Adobe is just playing the FEAR, UNCERTAINTY, and DOUBT game.

Tell me about it. What you stated is the reason why I have no sympathy for Adobe's cause. If it were a much better company that had not short-changed its customers, I might have been more understanding. But then again, those companies, like many that adapted to the iPhone OS ecosystem decided to make amends, and play by the rules. To them, the bottom line is the profit that could be earned by targetting such a big market -- "85 million and growing" customers.

While there are technologies that could co-exist, e.g., radio, movies, theatre, TV, etc.; there are times when certain technologies have to be left behind.

Just imagine how our transportation network would be if the predominant "horse/donkey" modes of transport industry prevailed to be included in the modern transportation system.

Maybe some manure collection and recycling stations? To cite one.

Instead, imagine how many horse/donkey drivers had to part with their carts. All those stable boys, and horse trainers losing their jobs. And all those horses that had to be sacrificed. On a brighter note, I was surprised though how those "stables" in London were ingeniously transformed, as part of chic living quarters.

Maybe Adobe should concentrate more to evolve, to remain relevant in a rapidly changing technology-oriented ecosystem.

CGC
post #115 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar View Post

Adobe ♥'s Apple

Awesome! Does that mean we're gonna get a desktop flash browser that doesn't crash every 3rd page I look at, or cook my genitals when I'm watching video?

Mmmm.... I detect a marketing opportunity for Adobe...

Flash == Birth Control!

.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #116 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

The point isn't the 'full on flash experience' (whatever that is.)
Its conflating that sideshow of jumping screaming attention grabbers with 'the full web experience'.
Adobe is trying to claim that their porn/ad creation cash machine IS the web. It is most definitely not that.

Again with the porn/ad comment?

Did you really not stop and think that html5 is capable of porn and ads?

Jeesh
post #117 of 448
It's Spacely Space Sprockets vs Cogswell Cogs all over again.
post #118 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

.. Face it: Pointing to flash crashing in the past instead of acknowledging the most recent progress made makes no sense.

What actual recent progress is that? And, a companies history of producing crappy software is entirely relevant in a discussion of whether it should be abandoned or not. Adobe has Flash running OK on one platform, Windows, and even their many would say it's no picnic. They have shown themselves to simply not be able to support multiple platforms (and this applies to all their software), and content publishers would be fools to bet on them to be able to do so now.
post #119 of 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post



I feel mindful to start a class action on behalf of all unsupported device owners (except for Apple one's).

Yours sincerely

A happy iPhone owner.



I love this forum.
post #120 of 448
There are quite a few porn sites that are re encoding their content to support H.264 video playback, I'm seeing more sites support HTML5 standards. I'm just curious though, if Adobe is so desperate to prove to the world they're not a proprietary standard, and they believe in open standards, when will they release the source code for Flash so it can be tweaked by the developer community into something more useful?
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