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'We have never, ever abandoned Apple,' Adobe co-founder says

post #1 of 188
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Adobe has continued to push back against Apple's opposition to Flash, insisting that the Web format is open, and dismissing a suggestion from Steve Jobs that Adobe abandoned Apple.

Adobe co-founder Chuck Geschke spoke with John Paczkowski of Digital Daily this week, just after his company had unveiled an open letter and new advertising campaign related to its ongoing dispute with Apple. Adobe's campaign is largely in response to an open letter published by Apple co-founder Steve Jobs last month, in which he argued that Flash is not suitable for the current generation of mobile devices.

Paszckowski asked Geschke about one line in particular from Jobs' letter: "Apple went through its near death experience, and Adobe was drawn to the corporate market with their Acrobat products." Paszckowski said he felt the Apple CEO was implying that Adobe had abandoned Apple in its time of need.

"We never abandoned Apple," Geschke responded. "Apple now seems to be abandoning at least one aspect of our product line right now. No, we never abandoned them. We've always ported our apps simultaneously to both platforms."

He continued: "There have been times when Apple has changed its strategy on hardware or on operating systems that didn’t meet our product cycle, so there have been periods of maybe six months where we didn't keep up with their latest release. But that’s our own business model; we can only afford to re-implement our products at a certain rate. We have never, ever abandoned Apple and we don’t want to abandon them today."

Geschke was also asked why Flash isn't an "open standard," a question that the Adobe co-founder took issue with. He argued that Flash is open because Adobe published the SWF format and removed a previous requirement for a license to use it.

"No, we haven't put Flash out to a standards body yet as we have with PDF and Postscript," he said. "But I wouldn't be shocked if we do someday when it makes sense."

It doesn't make sense now, he said, because he isn't interested in having Flash being stuck with "design by committee." He pointed to HTML5, the open standard that Apple has embraced, and noted that it is taking a great deal of time to become finalized because "there are an awful lot of vested interests trying to influence its development."

Finally, Geschke said he thinks the iPad is "neat," though he has no interest in one personally. He said his company knows a number of developers who want to create applications for the iPad, but are frustrated by the prospect of having to learn to write for a new device rather than sticking with one language they're already familiar with.

Geschke's interview was part of a new public relations campaign Adobe has waged to fight Apple. On Thursday, the company began a new ad campaign in which it says it "loves" Apple, but dislikes "anybody taking away your freedom to use the Web openly. Geschke, along with co-founder John Warnock, penned a letter in which they asserted that a "single company" does not control the Web.

"We believe that Apple, by taking the opposite approach, has taken a step that could undermine this next chapter of the web -- the chapter in which mobile devices outnumber computers, any individual can be a publisher, and content is accessed anywhere and at any time," they wrote.

While Apple has banned Flash from its devices powered by the iPhone OS, including the iPhone, iPod touch and iPad, it has embraced HTML5. The exclusion of Flash has been pegged by Apple on the Web format's alleged instability and high power consumption in mobile devices. The fight between the two companies has been a matter of considerable debate, but many major Web sites have turned to HTML5 since the release of the iPad.

In addition to banning Flash from its mobile Web browsers, Apple also changed the iPhone developer agreement to ban third-party tools that would allow software to be ported from other formats, like Adobe Flash, to native iPhone OS software. Jobs said such tools would result in substandard applications on the Apple-controlled App Store. Those changes have come under federal scrutiny, as the Department of Justice and Federal Trade Commission are considering an antitrust inquiry into the matter.
post #2 of 188
"No, we haven't put Flash out to a standards body yet as we have with PDF and Postscript," he said. "But I wouldn't be shocked if we do someday when it makes sense."

==================

In other words. "When Flash is no longer relevant, we will put it out to a standards body in the hope that it becomes relevant again."
post #3 of 188
'We have never, ever abandoned Apple,' Adobe co-founder says ... Chuck, I beg to differ ...
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Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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post #4 of 188


Is Flash really that important to Adobe? I'd like to see a revenue pie chart.
post #5 of 188
Within this year or next year smart phones and mobile internet devices sales are goin to surpass the PC. All they need are HTML5 compliant browsers to support the standard. The three major smart phone manufacturers do support HTML5. Flash is getting left out of the devices that will soon dominate web usage.

Ultimatley the way to keep Flash revelant is to deliver a superior experience. These press releases does nothing to accomplish that.
post #6 of 188
OMG, they are whining a bit much. Adobe put out a product that Apple ended up not liking. How about focusing on making it way better than HTML5 so the market will beg to use it, or focus on your products that work well.
post #7 of 188
My guess is that Adobe's just trying to get Apple to hate them enough not to buy them so the CEO's can keep their cushy jobs.
post #8 of 188
Why is everyone publishing Adobe PR pieces without questioning them?

Face it - Adobe has never released a full version of Flash that will run on the iPhone. That's an unquestioned fact.

Flash can use > 100% CPU time on my Core 2 Duo 2.33 GHz MBP with 3 GB of RAM. Just how in the world can it be expected to run on a 400 to 600 MHz device with less than 1/10 the RAM?

Adobe has been promising a version of Flash for the iPhone for 3 years and not delivered. Apple got tired of waiting. For that matter, only Android of all smart phone manufacturers is supporting Adobe - and even that support is very limited. The overwhelming majority of the smart phone market says NO FLASH.

Apple released a well-thought out explanation of why they don't support Flash on the iPhone - and all we get from Adobe is whining and lies. How about trying to refute Jobs' comments? Show us Flash working on an iPhone. Surely Adobe knows that they can jailbreak a phone in order to show that it works.

Oh, and get off they hypocrisy about openness. Adobe claims that one company shouldn't control the Internet. That's Apple's entire argument. The Internet should use open standards like html 5 - not closed, proprietary ones like Flash. It's an amazing indication of how gullible they think the public is that Adobe will even try to claim the 'one company shouldn't control the internet' as an Adobe advantage.

PLEASE stop printing Adobe press releases. How about a little analysis?
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post #9 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"We never abandoned Apple," Geschke responded. "Apple now seems to be abandoning at least one aspect of our product line right now. No, we never abandoned them. We've always ported our apps simultaneously to both platforms."

I haven't ever used any Adobe product and even I know this is an outright lie. Who's he trying to fool (besides the people who already have a grudge against Apple and will believe anything any other company says)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

It doesn't make sense now, he said, because he isn't interested in having Flash being stuck with "design by committee." He pointed to HTML5, the open standard that Apple has embraced, and noted that it is taking a great deal of time to become finalized because "there are an awful lot of vested interests trying to influence its development."

Reminds me of not too long ago when Adobe was blocking something regarding HTML5. So, if Flash isn't awful because of committee, what's the excuse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Finally, Geschke said he thinks the iPad is "neat," though he has no interest in one personally. He said his company knows a number of developers who want to create applications for the iPad, but are frustrated by the prospect of having to learn to write for a new device rather than sticking with one language they're already familiar with.

Honestly, I'm happy not to see apps from Flash developers flood the App Store more than it already is with junk.
post #10 of 188
How exactly can Apple abandon Flash when it was NEVER on the iPhone in the first place? It's still on virtually all Macs but it's never been on the iPhone and most likely never will be. By Adobe's own admittance they don't have a Flash plugin that's worth a crap for a mobile device so what would Apple even put on the iPhone? Flash lite? Yeah, no.

Adobe, Apple isn't abandoning you, they are trying to make the best user experience for their customers, if you should decide to make software that will do that I'm sure Apple would love to have your software but in its current form Flash doesn't work on the mobile platform (hence why you're re-writing it, if you thought it was fine before you wouldn't even bother you'd just port it).
post #11 of 188
Quote:
"We never abandoned Apple," ..."We've always ported our apps simultaneously to both platforms."

Right you stupid ass-hole - that's the point. You've been porting your shitty apps for the last decade not taking full advantage of our platform of choice.

I've loathed Adobe products for so long - now with their hypocritical bitching about Apple - it's only making their position worse.

Maybe Autodesk could rise up and fill this need we have to actually have competition for Adobe (ironically enough the same Adobe did with Quark).
post #12 of 188
More nonsense from Adobe.
post #13 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

periods of maybe six months

Isn't he blatently lying here?. 6 month cycle for products. Leopard has been out since 2007 and Adobe just got around to using 64bit leopard technology and leopard frameworks with CS5. The statements coming out of adobe are bordering on crazy. Completely dumping Adobe Primier on the mac and making statements like we always work both platforms and never abandoned apple? Do they think we are stupid?. I used to love these guys at adobe. I gladly moved from quark to indesign because I loved adobe. Now I can't wait for someone to come in and destroy them with better products.
post #14 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robodude View Post



Is Flash really that important to Adobe? I'd like to see a revenue pie chart.

Yes, but as a piece that intertwines itself within it's many product suites.

Their > $4.5 Billion for Macromedia was a hefty investment that they want to make money on, overall.

You'd think they'd make sure that investment was well warranted by making sure the software isn't a bag of hurt.
post #15 of 188
Time to find something else to do Adobe..... Focusing on Apple like this may get you some press, but ignoring similar statements from Microsoft, Opera, mozilla, and who else (?) is going to end up biting them in the butt. Look at the download stats for Flash blockers, people who want their advertisements to be seen must be doing this. I can't imagine that they are happy, or will be content with, only a portion of the web seeing their ads, no matter how big or small that portion is.
post #16 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

My guess is that Adobe's just trying to get Apple to hate them enough not to buy them so the CEO's can keep their cushy jobs.

My first reaction to your comment - it's off the wall. But on second thought ... just maybe ...

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post #17 of 188
Here's a question: Where's Narayen?
post #18 of 188
Quote:
"We never abandoned Apple"

*cough*FrameMaker*cough*
post #19 of 188
yeah... right.
And Microsoft's like IE for Mac is still very much alive.
post #20 of 188
Quote:
...Flash is not suitable for the current generation of mobile devices.


O.K. fine it isn´t. Neither does Flash run well on a 3 year old new XP Dell I set up today for a friend neither. (was siting in a box unused for all that time)

No big deal, it´s not the end of the world. It´s just the processor thermal limit being hit.

It´s not Adobe´s fault, it´s not Apple´s fault.

Flash provides things HTML 5 doesn´t.

Jobs is being a drama king for a reason, to push his own standard.

Jobs feels like he has to control software because the hardware limitations now demands it.

Look at the App Store as a prime example.

No longer can developers write more and more bloated code and wait for the hardware to catch up, because it no longer can.

Jesus, this means the end of open Mac´s for sure now. *sobs*
post #21 of 188
I don't think that there has ever been a statement that Apple "has banned" Flash anyways. Yes there has been the banning of the cheats that Adobe built into CS5, but Adobe can't say flash is banned until they come up with an acceptable solution for flash content in a mobile browser. Until they solve all of the problems that SJ outlined, they can't say they are banned anymore than Microsoft can say that Office is banned on the iPhone...
post #22 of 188
'The lady doth protest too much.'

Adobe: Please move along. It's getting tiresome.
post #23 of 188
I suggest everyone do the following and encourage your friends to as well:

Uninstall Flash by moving the "Flash Player.plugin", "flashplayer.xpt", and "NP-PPC-Dir-Shockwave" out of the "/Library/Internet Plugins" folder and disable the click to flash plugin as well (if you are using it). If you ever need to load flash, open Chrome or Firefox and copy the link into there and go back to Safari when you are done. (Do the opposite if you prefer Firefox or Chrome.) This will start to encourage more web sites to move away from flash as the statistics will show fewer people having flash installed. And you'll get a more stable browsing experience.
post #24 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Why is everyone publishing Adobe PR pieces without questioning them?

Face it - Adobe has never released a full version of Flash that will run on the iPhone. That's an unquestioned fact.

The question is, were they allowed to?

Quote:
Flash can use > 100% CPU time on my Core 2 Duo 2.33 GHz MBP with 3 GB of RAM. Just how in the world can it be expected to run on a 400 to 600 MHz device with less than 1/10 the RAM?

Very simple. check this video - http://blog.digitalbackcountry.com/2...ng-on-android/

Non-mobile optimized flash websites running on an android phone. 3D rendering, videos, etc. One hic-up here and there, but very very usable overall

Quote:
Adobe has been promising a version of Flash for the iPhone for 3 years and not delivered. Apple got tired of waiting. For that matter, only Android of all smart phone manufacturers is supporting Adobe - and even that support is very limited. The overwhelming majority of the smart phone market says NO FLASH.

Android is the majority and it is getting flash.

Quote:
Apple released a well-thought out explanation of why they don't support Flash on the iPhone - and all we get from Adobe is whining and lies. How about trying to refute Jobs' comments? Show us Flash working on an iPhone. Surely Adobe knows that they can jailbreak a phone in order to show that it works.

Yes, waste months of development time just so you can show it is possible. There is another way to showcase flash - the competition.

Quote:
Oh, and get off they hypocrisy about openness. Adobe claims that one company shouldn't control the Internet. That's Apple's entire argument. The Internet should use open standards like html 5 - not closed, proprietary ones like Flash. It's an amazing indication of how gullible they think the public is that Adobe will even try to claim the 'one company shouldn't control the internet' as an Adobe advantage.

PLEASE stop printing Adobe press releases. How about a little analysis?

They are both wrong. Flash was the key piece in the introduction of web 2.0 (or is it 3.0 already?). There are things you can do with flash that you can't do with HTML5, or not as well.

And above all, Adobe makes money, not with flash (although it is a part of it), but with productivity suits. Flash bombs? It's ok, lets just make the ubber HTML5 compliant suit. And get shitloads of cash. It is THAT simple.

And all this to avoid saying the real reason apple doesn't want flash in their platforms - if they could run flash, millions of free games and apps would be available for free, and the monopoly of their app store would end.

PS: and before you accuse me of any kind of bias, I love apple computers. I wouldn't trade my mbp for the world, especially for working. But I'm not with Steve on this one.
post #25 of 188
I dislike flash in general. The main use of it on the web these days seems to be really annoying ads which hijack your screen, make noise at you with no way of turning them off, or flash (no pun intended) crap about 'One weird old trick' to lose your jelly roll. That, and as a container for video, which makes the video difficult to download and requires extra software to view it offline (VLC for example, to view .flv files). Neither of those uses have any appeal for me. From a programming standpoint, I absolutely agree with Apple's position. Crap like TransGaming's Cider, crossover, and any other type of execution environment (java used to be really bad too) generally causes way more problems than it every provides benefits, and makes for crappy, generic, horrible programs. I am a programmer, and have experience mostly on windows and unix, and just a tiny bit on Mac OS under cocoa. I would MUCH rather spend time learning to use xcode to write native apps properly than whore myself out with a half assessed program. Saving time is nice, but NOT at the huge expense of quality that generally goes with these frameworks. Heck, cross platform frameworks are generally a pain in the butt too (QT, I'm looking at YOU).

We do NOT need programs written by lousy windows programmers who are too lazy to do things properly. The platform(s) are way better off without such garbage.

C
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post #26 of 188
Quote:
"No, we never abandoned them. We've always ported our apps simultaneously to both platforms... There have been times when Apple has changed its strategy on hardware or on operating systems that didnt meet our product cycle, so there have been periods of maybe six months where we didn't keep up with their latest release."

Wow. These statements are completely untrue. Just review the facts of Adobe's product releases. For some products, like Framemaker and Premier, Adobe chose to abandon the Mac platform entirely and develop for Windows only. For other products, updates for the Mac side came many months, sometimes years after the updates for Windows. Adobe just came out with 64-bit support for CS apps on OS X a month ago!

Yo, Adobe -- please shut up and write some great software. Compete in the marketplace, instead of acting like you have a "right" to success (without having to do the hard work of earning it). Adobe's behavior right now reminds me of students who complain that they didn't get an "A" on the test, even though they didn't do the homework.
post #27 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotOn View Post

Jesus, this means the end of open Mac´s for sure now. *sobs*

Speaking of drama.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

'The lady doth protest too much.'

I can't figure out what they expect will happen from these "whine fests". There are only two things they can do. 1) Make Flash for mobile great. 2) Get partners who support Flash for mobile wholeheartedly. Granted, the 2nd requires the first but one is technological and other business maneuvering.

If you can do that then Apple will be on th defensive and likely pressured into supporting it or risk losing business. I'd wager this is proof that Adobe isn't able to "fix" Flash for mobiles adequately. After all, we've had a public beta of Flash 10.1 for desktop OSes for months and it's still a private beta(alpha?) for Android.
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post #28 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by err View Post

Android is the majority and it is getting flash.

Only the latest version of Android has been promised Flash, and most Android devices sold today aren't shipping with the latest Android. A good number can't even be upgraded to it. So 1. when Flash is more than vaporware on Android, and 2. there are a substantial number of that particular version of Android on the market you'll have a point.

Besides, the market share numbers are very unclear right now. NPD says Android surged based on a self-reported survey. AdMob says it surged based on their ad shows-- but only AFTER they were acquired by Google. I think it's fair to say that Android isn't going the way of WebOS but it's definitely not a "majority" of anything-- it may or may not have passed Apple but it certainly hasn't passed RIM.
post #29 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualia View Post

... Reminds me of not too long ago when Adobe was blocking something regarding HTML5. ...

Yeah, given Adobe's "activities" related to the HTML5 standard, the bit about,

Quote:
there are an awful lot of vested interests trying to influence its development.

is priceless.
post #30 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

*cough*FrameMaker*cough*

Ditto. Using Framemaker under Windows really sucks.
post #31 of 188
Didnt Adobe pull Premiere from Mac when Apple released Final Cut?
post #32 of 188
Wowzers!!! Talk about feeling threatened dood!
post #33 of 188
Quote:
It doesn't make sense now, he said, because he isn't interested in having Flash being stuck with "design by committee."

Umm, kay. And, it's worked well so far to have it be under the control of a single corporation.
post #34 of 188
enough.

get back to work adobe! show us you can actually do it.
post #35 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by CIM View Post

Didnt Adobe pull Premiere from Mac when Apple released Final Cut?

Close to same time frame, yet FCP was more of an AVID competitor compared to Premier competitor. Our company used premier on mac and we were very disappointed with adobe dumping of the product. Yet when we were forced to get FCP we were happy because technology benefits and upgrades blew premier away.
post #36 of 188
There really two issues with Flash.

1. Flash doesn't work well on mobile devices. It doesn't work well on the Mac. Crashing is easy to recover from on the mac, but not on an iPhone or iPod Touch. When a mobile device crashes you almost always have to re=install the system to recover and you'll probably lose multimedia in the process.

2. Flash, IMO, is akin to covert spyware. It collects lots of usage data and calls it home, and on a mobile phone that means it uses your data transfer quota, that has limits (CAPS), for advertisement you never asked for. It slows down data transfer to give you real annoying blinking ads. Flash uses valuable storage space on a device that can hardly afford it. Finally. Are you really sure what is being collected?

I realize that HTML5 specs are also going to allow storing and collecting data on the device, but I trust the open source community far more than I'll ever trust Adobe, Apple, or any other corporation where the bottom line is profit.
post #37 of 188
http://www.adobe.com/choice/openmarkets.html



just pull the plug on flash, adobe, we'll all be happier, including you...
post #38 of 188
Adobe does not state the facts about PostScript and their support of open standards and competition accurately. You see, my company created a Postscript-compatible interpreter. A key font technology (Type 1 fonts) was kept encrypted and secret by Adobe until the encryption was cracked (and we were one of the first to do that). Without Type 1 font support, clones were crippled. Even Microsoft approached my company about licensing our Type 1 font technology after we had cracked it and because they too knew how valuable it was for their clone.

I won't get into Adobe's strong arm tactics here about how they pressured our potential customers, but let's just say that I believe we lost more than one deal because of what I believed were shady business practices.

So much for "open" technology and supporting competition.


Setting the record straight,


Steve Kochan
Author, Programming in Objective-C 2.0
Former President and CEO, Pipeline Associates, Inc.
Creator of the PowerPage PostScript-Compatible interpreter
post #39 of 188
"He said his company knows a number of developers who want to create applications for the iPad, but are frustrated by the prospect of having to learn to write for a new device rather than sticking with one language they're already familiar with."

BS! You can write iPhone/iPad apps in C, C++, or Objective-C. If he is implying with his statement that Apple isn't allowing C# to compile, then he needs to realize that almost all developers who write in C# started off with C++.
post #40 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by CIM View Post

Didnt Adobe pull Premiere from Mac when Apple released Final Cut?

It's interesting that adobe has brought premier back to mac recently ... probably as a result of mac going intel route and porting it over to mac was relatively easy. I haven't taken a serious look at it to see if it is any good.
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