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Adobe-Apple war on Flash reminiscent of PostScript struggle

post #1 of 109
Thread Starter 
Three years of mounting tensions between Apple and Adobe Systems over the availability of Flash on devices running the iPhone OS have exploded into a battle of scathing attacks in both directions. Adobe is now advertising its "love" for Apple, despite enumerating the company's sins that it hates.

The character of the attacks in today's Flash Wars seems extraordinary, but is certainly not unprecedented, as sources familiar with the events from two decades ago remind us. That's because this latest skirmish isn't the first time Apple has sent Adobe into wildly frothy hysterics due to a perceived jilting.

This All Happened Before

Back in the late 80s, Adobe had a very different software monopoly in place. Rather than controlling the platform for creating and delivering dynamic content on the web with Flash, Adobe was sitting upon PostScript, a platform for creating and delivering digital content via print.

PostScript was Adobe's original product, taken from Xerox PARC's hotbed of innovation and commercialized by company founders John Warnock and Charles Geschke. Three years after launching Adobe, Steve Jobs created a partnership with the company that licensed its PostScript page description technology to drive Apple's new LaserWriter, with Apple also investing $2.5 million in Adobe for a 15% stake in the company.

Paul Brainerd started a third company to pioneer this emerging desktop publishing market; it was named Aldus and its flagship product was PageMaker, running on Apple's Macs and using PostScript to create high resolution print output via the LaserWriter. Apple actually announced the LaserWriter on the same day Aldus unveiled PageMaker. Together, Apple, Aldus and Adobe created the emerging market for desktop publishing.

As a middleware platform, Adobe's PostScript became so essential to desktop publishing and the Mac that Adobe could charge pretty much whatever it wanted for the software and the "Type 1" fonts it used. In 1989, Apple's replacement for Jobs, Jean-Louis Gassée, approached Adobe seeking a cheaper version of PostScript for use on Apple's new low-priced Macs then in the product pipeline. Adobe refused. This prompted Apple to seek market-based solution to Adobe's greed: it began to investigate alternatives to PostScript.

Microsoft had acquired TrueImage, a PostScript clone that could replace Adobe's language in laser printers. Apple itself had developed an operating system font scaling technology it called TrueType, for drawing smooth fonts on the screen that could be rendered at high resolution on a printer. The two companies agreed to cross license their technologies to make both widely available across the Mac and Windows platforms, erasing any need for anyone to keep paying for Adobe's overpriced PostScript software and the Type 1 fonts it required.

Adobe's scorn, vilification and trash talking from 20 years ago

At the Seybold Desktop Publishing Conference in San Francisco on September 20, 1989, Apple and Microsoft jointly presented their new TrueType partnership. Adobe's Warnock was enraged. He publicly castigated Apple and Microsoft, saying, "That's the biggest bunch of garbage and mumbo jumbo," and speaking on the verge of tears, he emphatically added, "What those people are selling you is snake oil!"

The TrueType announcement seemed to eviscerate Adobe's future prospects. Apple dumped its holdings in Adobe as the company's stock price plummeted. Apple still ended up profiting $79 million on its original investment in Adobe, according to Jim Carlton's book "Apple: The Inside Story of Intrigue, Egomania, and Business Blunders."

Following the fallout between Apple and Adobe, Adobe rushed its new Adobe Type Manager to market to enable its Type 1 PostScript fonts to be used on the Mac desktop just like TrueType fonts. Adobe also eased up on its prices and negotiated with Apple new terms to keep PostScript on its LaserWriters. In the PC world, TrueType and PostScript-clone printers became more popular, despite being problematic, because they were cheaper. Apple's continued exclusive licensing of Adobe's PostScript for its LaserWriters eventually helped drive Apple out of the printer business as cheaper alternatives became available. Adobe's lock on desktop publishing with PostScript had been broken.

Adobe branches out into apps

Despite continuing to do most of its business with Apple, Adobe strengthened its position with Windows to hedge its bets in application software. It also began making efforts to build a portfolio of creative apps to join its own Illustrator drawing tool. It first eyed Aldus, which not only sold the popular PageMaker, but also sold a competitor to Adobe's Illustrator named FreeHand.

Adobe had earlier "unwittingly given a nearly free and unlimited PostScript license" to FreeHand, according to an early Aldus employee familiar with the events. Aldus FreeHand was now trouncing Adobe's Illustrator, so Adobe planned to buy Aldus in 1994 and simply erase its competitor in the market for professional drawing applications.

The problem, as Adobe later discovered, was that FreeHand wasn't actually owned by Aldus; Altsys, its developer, only sold the title through Aldus, so the deal couldn't take FreeHand off the market, much to Adobe's chagrin. FreeHand's developer subsequently sold itself to Macromedia in 1995, which became Adobe's primary competitor in digital creative apps over the next decade. Adobe wouldn't subsequently take FreeHand off the market until 2005, when it purchased Macromedia. That $3.4 billion deal also gave Adobe more than just creative apps: it gave it a new PostScript-like platform: Flash.

Incidentally, a reader adds: "freefreehand.org has been setup to recruit members and raise funds to try to convince Adobe through legal means to divest itself of FreeHand, which they are trying to let die a slow death. Fortunately this skirmish with Apple has helped shed a tad of light on how hypocritical Adobe is regarding 'healthy competition' and all the other drivel they are spouting regarding Apple spurning Flash."



On page 2 of 3: Flash takes over the web, Apple's changing stance on Flash.

Flash takes over the web

Originally launched as an animation tool, Flash quickly became an easy way to add interactivity to multimedia projects (such as CD-ROMS), and eventually web pages. Its popularity on the web blossomed after Microsoft began bundling it with Internet Explorer 5 in 1999, spreading over the web just as PostScript had spread across laser printers in the 80s. Adobe's rival effort to promote open standards for web animation (including SVG) failed to gain traction in the face of IE's wide propagation of Flash.

Apple subsequently incorporated Flash 4 content as a track type in QuickTime 5, enabling developers to create movies with a layer of interactivity to control playback or perform other functions. QuickTime 6 upgraded its support to Flash 5 in 2002, but the idea of delivering complex multimedia movies in QuickTime began to fade in the mid-2000s as Apple began to focus on more on mobile playback and hardware-based decoding.

Flash itself also began to find value as a video playback tool, but unlike QuickTime's focus as a desktop and mobile device player, Flash was targeted directly at the web. While web video could be presented via JavaScript, the various browsers were at the time all implementing web standards slightly differently, making it difficult to create one bit of code that could reliably embed video that most users could play. Flash solved that problem because it standardized the codec and the playback code; Flash became the platform for presenting video, in place of HTML and JavaScript.

The compatibility and standards-compliance issues between browsers was bridged by the Flash Player plugin, which served as an alternative mechanism for presenting content. Because the Flash Player plugins for each platform and browser came from Macromedia (and later Adobe), there were far fewer problems with interoperability, making Flash development easier for coders (and particularly designers) compared to using W3C web standards, which had seen little forward progress in the years since Microsoft had virtually ended competition in the browser market around 2000.

In late 2007, Apple removed support for Flash in QuickTime 7.3 because in most cases, it made more sense to play Flash content via Adobe's own more modern player version installed as a browser plugin. Few developers were still using Flash as a layer within QuickTime movies, and Apple found the incorporation of Flash within QuickTime to be difficult to keep pace with Adobe's latest developments in its own platform. There were also lots of security issues involved, and Flash simply complicated the architecture of QuickTime while offering little benefit.

That didn't stop the tech media from presenting the removal of Flash from QuickTime to be a conspiracy plot against Adobe. However, while Apple wasn't enthused about Macromedia and then Adobe's stewardship of Flash on the Mac, it wasn't immediately looking to remove Flash from the web or even its mobile devices.

Apple's changing stance on Flash

When the iPhone debuted, it was depicted without any support for web plugins. Asked whether it would support Flash or Java, Jobs gave a "maybe" for Flash but said no for Java. Apple was clearly investigating the possibility of Flash playing on the iPhone. The problem, Apple noted at the time, was that "Flash Lite," Adobe's strategy for getting its software on mobile devices, wouldn't deliver what customers expected of Flash. On the other hand, the full version of Flash wasn't at all optimized to work on mobile devices and was not yet available for the ARM processor used in most mobile devices.

The ball was in Adobe's court. Apple needed a way to deliver interactivity on mobile devices, but Adobe refused to serve that need, just as it had refused to serve Apple's need for a lower cost version of PostScript to enable it to create entry-level Macs twenty years earlier. And so Apple began to seek a market-based solution to Adobe's ineptitude: it began to investigate alternatives.

Apple had been working with the W3C and WHATWG for years on what would become HTML5, primarily a mechanism for adding rich interactivity to web pages by simply upgrading what HTML, JavaScript and CSS can do within the browser. One of the key features of HTML5 is direct multimedia playback, a feature that erases the main reason why consumers would want Flash on a mobile device. HTML5 presents a standard way to embed audio and video, just as previous versions of HTML presented a standard mechanism to present embedded graphics.



On page 3 of 3: Flash fails to take over mobile web.

Adobe's scorn, vilification and trash talking from today

Apple realized that it could either commit to Adobe's mobile Flash in the way that Google is now doing, or it could go its own way. In contrast with Apple's previous decision to stick with Adobe's PostScript, a decision that did not make the company competitive in printers, Apple is now focusing entirely on open standards, leaving the market to decide whether Adobe's mobile Flash efforts will gain any traction and attract any interest from developers. If Adobe is able to create a high quality Flash Player for mobile devices over the next year, Apple will likely eventually adopt Adobe's software for its mobile platform.

If on the other hand, Adobe fails to launch Flash on Android this summer, the company will likely never have a chance to relaunch it again on any mobile platform. That failure will endorse Apple's current strategy of pursuing open web standards, and likely push Google, Microsoft and other companies away from their current support for Adobe's yet unfinished mobile Flash product and toward exclusive support for web standards.

Adobe is expressing outrage that Apple is not leading its efforts to promote Flash on mobile devices, characterizing Apple's disinterest in pioneering support for the as yet unfinished mobile Flash Player, and its disinterest in becoming a testbed for mobile apps created using Flash CS5's code generating tool, as an assault against choice.

Currently however, Adobe isn't providing a suitable choice for Apple to adopt. While Apple continues to work with Adobe to improve its Flash Player for the Mac, there is no finished, optimized, secure, or mature version of Flash Player for mobile devices that Apple can adopt even if it desperately wanted to. And it appears that it is in Apple's best interests to support open technologies for its users, rather than chasing Adobe to get whatever level of support the company decides to give it.

The challenge for Apple has been to convince web publishers to change from having standardized on Flash for nearly all their web interactivity and video playback, to embracing a new open standard that would require lots of new encoding of their video and the updating of their existing web properties: no easy task.

Apple started down this path in 2007 by creating a dedicated player for YouTube on the iPhone and Apple TV and convincing Google to encode its videos for raw playback on those devices without Flash. That resulted in a plurality of the web's videos being available without Flash. It also demonstrated that H.264 was both viable on the web, and far superior to Flash for video playback on mobile devices, because H.264 benefitted from hardware encoding.

Apple has also demonstrated that interactive media and Rich Internet Apps don't require Flash. The company has built a series of sophisticated web applications using web standards, including its SproutCore based MobileMe suite, and its retail WebObjects client apps built using the Giandula framework. It has also developed a series of tools for building web apps for iPhone and iPad, as well as interactive content sold in iTunes under the iTunes Extras and iTunes LP brands.

Adobe branches out into apps

While Adobe planned to incorporate the H.264 codec into Flash as well, the fact that most videos would need to be encoded into H.264 began to erode Adobe's position in serving the Flash middleware that paved the platform for video playback between web developers and end users. That has prompted Adobe to think up other uses for Flash, an effort that has primarily focused on Rich Internet Applications.

Adobe hoped to relaunch its Flash platform, under the name Flex, as a development API for creating RIAs. But RIAs were the main point of HTML5, which was originally crafted under the working name "Web Applications 1.0." While Adobe participates in the development of HTML5, there isn't any way for Adobe to merge with its competition and put it out of business, because HTML5 is an open standard.

This is resulting in Adobe being far more upset about the prospects of losing its control of the web via Flash than it was about losing its control over desktop publishing via PostScript. In both cases, Adobe blamed Apple for its loss, rather than viewing it as its own failure to deliver a product its customers could use.

Three years after the launch of the iPhone, Adobe is still not ready with a full, functional version of Flash that can run on mobile devices. While it advertises that Flash runs on "more than 800 million devices" from "all the top 20 handset manufacturers except for Apple," the truth is that figure can only count Flash Lite running on mobile devices, which simply can't play the majority of Flash content.

The first real version of Flash capable of running on a mobile device (and not merely a desktop system such as Windows 7 running on a small form factor device) is not due until the end of June, when Adobe plans to ship the initial Flash Player 10.1 for Android. It hopes to deliver Flash Player 10.1 for Symbian, BlackBerry OS, webOS and Microsoft's forthcoming Windows Phone 7 later this year.

Flash fails to take over the mobile web

However, Adobe now faces a herculean task in convincing its Flash developers to upgrade all their content while working to deliver five new mobile versions of its Flash Player and attempting to attract Flex developers to its proprietary platform in preference to HTML5. In Adobe's favor are a full set of tools for graphical authoring in Flash (currently lacking for HTML5) and lots of vendors signed up to license Flash.

On the other side however, there is mounting interest in supporting HTML5 from operating system and web browser vendors, from Apple's WebKit and iPhone OS to Google's Android and ChromeOS to Opera and Mozilla's Firefox to Microsoft's Internet Explorer 9. Apple's significant share of the smartphone market and (currently) near total share of the sophisticated MP3 and tablet markets is a major thorn in the side of Adobe, as none of Apple's iPhone OS devices can play Flash.

While Adobe points to all the competing mobile platforms that will soon be able to run Flash, it isn't advertising the fact that its new mobile Flash Player requires a very fast processor. So while Android and Symbian and BlackBerry will all eventually support Flash in theory, the majority of the installed base of those vendors' phones won't. Only the very latest high-end models can possibly run the new Flash Player, making it a middleware platform that will only address a third or less of the installed base of those platforms.

Google reports that only about a third of Android users visiting its app market are on the latest version of Android, which is preinstalled on its new phones. Nokia reports an Average Selling Price for its smartphones that indicates that its huge volumes of Symbian phones as the leading smartphone maker are mostly low end models that will not be fast enough to run Flash. Similarly, BlackBerry's most popular devices are not its iPhone-like high end touchscreen devices, but rather its iconic texting-oriented models.

So unlike the desktop web, where Adobe enjoys an entrenched position (installed on around 96% of PCs) over the best way to deliver dynamic content via its Flash Player plugin, there's no way Adobe will be able to scrape together even a 30% installed base over smartphones, even when not counting the leading position of Apple's iPhone OS.

Additionally, unlike the market forces that are attracting both users and developers to Apple's iTunes App Store, there is no real compelling reason for mobile developers to flock to Flash, as there is no real marketplace for Flash apps other than the adware business model promoted by Flash games presented through Facebook and other online sites. That's not enough to generate widespread interest in creating sophisticated Flash titles.

On the other side, if Flash can manage to slowly gain share as a suitable cross-platform development tool for making titles that work across Android, ChromeOS, webOS, BlackBerry OS, and WP7, there will likely be efforts initiated by those vendors to promote native development over Flash, in order to prevent Flash from drowning out any proprietary advantage Google, RIM, HP/Palm, and Microsoft have attempted to create in developing their mobile platforms in the first place.

Apple's refusal to serve as a guinea pig for Adobe's mobile Flash experiments is therefore a huge problem for Adobe, as it hints to other Flash licensees that they might be better off developing their own native software markets, rather than ceding their mobile software business to Adobe's yet unfinished mobile Flash platform. Only a huge public outcry that presents lots of irrelevant facts about Flash Lite while ignoring the core problems with the real mobile Flash (notably its current failure to exist as a shipping product) can possibly distract attention from that reality.
post #2 of 109
As far as I m concerned Adobe and their over priced produts and upgrades can go to blazes.

Clickto Flash keeps my computer from crashing in Safari. Will be glad to see the final transition to HTML5.
post #3 of 109
Nice article. It seems to all boil down to market penetration. If Adobe can quickly create software for multiple mobile platforms, they may be able to grab market share. More likely, Adobe has already missed this boat.

In terms of 'overpriced products and upgrades' - reminds me of a company called "Cisco".
post #4 of 109
Good article.

First: any argument claiming that Flash is open and hinting that other companies than Adobe could lauch a plugin for Flash is crap. That would just be aginst the whole point with Flash. Simply because the redering could end up beeing different.

Second: flash is primarily used by PR and design companies. They are not programmers. But they are Adobe users. And you use the tool you have at hand. So they use Adobe. And they Create Flash based sites. And quite honestly I really belive that they could get the same PR-result without Flash. The site would work and look different, but would the company they do the PR for really hurt not using Flash? No. apple is itself a good example. Anyone think Apple need Flash to achieve their marketing targets? No. And quite frankly, with some creativety no other companies does either.

Thus, this is about the need for web creators to rethink the sites. And not use Flash.

But the shear thought means the death of Flash and Adobe will loose big.
post #5 of 109
Thanks! I know just the person to forward this story to!
post #6 of 109
A fine article.

Game. Set. And Match.

Doesn't match Steve Job's open letter demolition. But a fine read all the same.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

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You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #7 of 109
Another fine article from Daniel. While you may not like what the man says, you cannot argue with the facts and details that he presents.

Excellent.

Just a thought,
en
post #8 of 109
Received an e-mail from Apple today advertising the availability of Creative Suite 5.
post #9 of 109
great work
one small issue - wasn't director used for cd rom's and not flash? i seem to remember that flash started on the web and didn't get desktop capabilities until much later
cheers
post #10 of 109
Yeah, in addition to the Adobe/Apple spat, there are more similarities as well. Like the fact that a lot of the technologies in iPhone and iPad didn't come originally from Apple, but from Xerox, Palm, and others. And like Jobs taking technologies developed elsewhere and claiming that it is Apple innovation. And the fact that Apple is trying to use lawsuits to prevent other companies from using touch interfaces through lawsuits, just like they tried to keep other companies from using GUIs through lawsuits in the 1980's. And let's not forget what happened with Apple's own font technologies: they were just as bad and threatening towards others as Adobe was towards them.
post #11 of 109
Adobe keeps complaining about an Apple conspiracy against Flash.

But there's no decent Flash that will run on mobile devices. Now that Apple has made that pointedly clear, Adobe is working on a version and, last I heard, it crashes the phone every time in the demo. Not exactly what we're looking for, is it?

About the only conspiracy I actually see is Adobe's against itself - "footgun" might be an appropriate description.

Other have said it well in various forums ... Apple is looking out for its own interests first, with those of users being a close second (obviously affects #1). Developers and others such as Adobe are much further down the line.

Adobe just doesn't get it yet that Apple's main interest is NOT Adobe. Sorry guys - wake up and smell the coffee. When you do, you might notice that Apple has most of it already and has already eaten your breakfast.

Lunch, anyone?
post #12 of 109
HI all,

This sums up my beef with Adobe. Adobe need to stop with smoke and mirrors and man up that they missed opportunity due to their incompetent behaviour to get a working product ready.

This is business, not some hand holding tea party where Apple suppose to lose customer loyal because Adobe want to continue their market penetration via iPhone and then screw Apple in the process. You all know that if iPhone crashed due to Flash that uninformed consumers would blame the instrument not the software and Adobe would keep quite.

here is the quote from article

'Three years after the launch of the iPhone, Adobe is still not ready with a full, functional version of Flash that can run on mobile devices. While it advertises that Flash runs on "more than 800 million devices" from "all the top 20 handset manufacturers except for Apple," the truth is that figure can only count Flash Lite running on mobile devices, which simply can't play the majority of Flash content. '
post #13 of 109
I thought this was a very well balanced piece... then I saw:

"Adobe is expressing outrage that Apple is not leading its efforts to promote Flash on mobile devices, characterizing Apple's disinterest in pioneering support for the as yet unfinished mobile Flash Player..."

I would characterize Apple's statements over the last few months as just a bit more than "disinterest".

Yes, Adobe screwed up. If they had come out with Flash lite when the iPhone first came out, we'd all be using Flash on our iPads, but the picture he's painting of Apple here requires just a bit too much Kool-Aid.

HTML5 is not a replacement for Flash ... yet. Content providers all over the world are not going to, overnight, fire all their Flash developers and hire, what... people to write code? For a "standard-based" platform that's in draft spec?

http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ
"It is estimated by the editor that HTML5 will reach the W3C Candidate Recommendation stage during 2012"

my favorite quote on the subject...
"Despite the thousands of urgent words spilled on this subject, it doesn't really matter. Flash is here for a while, because nobody can get their act together."
http://gizmodo.com/5461711/giz-expla...e-the-internet
post #14 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1948 View Post

As far as I m concerned Adobe and their over priced produts and upgrades can go to blazes.

Clickto Flash keeps my computer from crashing in Safari. Will be glad to see the final transition to HTML5.

Me too...I was a big fan of Postscript/Apple laser printers in the day...

I was able to produce superior reports that amazed the 'executive staff,' Even in B&W. Go figure. My father always said, 'if you can't put it on one piece of paper, you don't understand it,' and 2., 'If it is more than one piece of paper, no one is going to read it!' Edit: He was talking about reports, memos, letters, flow charts, etc.



As far as Adobe, since Elements being so slow and Acrobat Professional being so expensive...I just 'get by' with iPhoto and PDFPEN and PDFShrink!

Clicktoflash is amazing! btw
post #15 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Adobe is expressing outrage that Apple is not leading its efforts to promote Flash on mobile devices, characterizing Apple's disinterest in pioneering support for the as yet unfinished mobile Flash Player, and its disinterest in becoming a testbed for mobile apps created using Flash CS5's code generating tool, as an assault against choice.

Really?
Adobe will not prtovide a decent Flash player for the Mac yet they are confused why Apple won't support an "as yet unfinished mobile Flash Player"?
post #16 of 109
I like the post about 'Adobe having 3 years to develop a mobile Flash version...'

Kind of reminds be of a few a years back when it was said, 'If a business doesn't have a website, etc., etc.' Now it seems the cliche is, 'A business better have an iPhone App or else....'

I mean everyone from, Redbox, Gieco, Chase, etc., has some kind of iPhone App.
post #17 of 109
During the merger with Apple Adobe fixed the cost to Apple at $10/installed system of OS X to run Display Postscript.

When NeXTStep was $799 for user and $4999 for Developer that cost was not a problem.

When the Developer Tools went to $0 and the User is now $129 the $10/copy is massive.

The guys rewrote WindowServer and created Quartz for Display PDF and much more w/o Adobe involved and the rest is history.
post #18 of 109
I can't believe the number of people that are responding with "nice article." It is horribly distorted and inaccurate.

Apparently the goal was a "history repeats itself" type story, truth be dammed.

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post #19 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

The guys rewrote WindowServer and created Quartz for Display PDF and much more w/o Adobe involved and the rest is history.

The real reason Apple is using "Display PDF" is because using Postscript in the window server was a mess. It gave nice output, but it was the wrong level of abstraction for a window system.

But actually, "Display PDF" is a misnomer. Quartz these days is a run-of-the-mill window server, not significantly different from (and actually more limited than) X11. What remains of "PDF" in there as far as most applications are concerned is just the basic graphics and compositing concepts, but they are widely used in industry anyway.
post #20 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

Adobe will not prtovide a decent Flash player for the Mac yet they are confused why Apple won't support an "as yet unfinished mobile Flash Player"?

It's not a question of "supporting"; Apple is actively preventing Adobe from delivering Flash to iPhone. And it's not like there aren't plenty of inefficient and buggy applications on iPhone already. Apple isn't worried about Flash being bad, Apple is worried about Flash being good enough so that many people will start using it.

But Apple isn't just keeping Flash off the iPhone, they are also keeping native applications that happen to have been developed with Adobe's Flash development environment off the iPhone. Those native applications are not using Flash, they are full Objective-C apps; they simply allow Flash developers to use the expertise that they already have instead of learning Apple's iPhone APIs.

I rarely use Flash and I don't really like it. But it's unacceptable for a hardware and OS manufacturer to tell users or developers what applications they can and cannot run. This needs to stop.
post #21 of 109
Nice article. Very good read.
post #22 of 109
In case anybody has not seen this yet:



from: http://www.zeldman.com/2010/05/14/apple-responds/
post #23 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by j234k View Post

It's not a question of "supporting";

I rarely use Flash and I don't really like it. But it's unacceptable for a hardware and OS manufacturer to tell users or developers what applications they can and cannot run. This needs to stop.

You mean like how you can no longer use Linux on a PS3?

Or how an Xbox with an upgraded hard drive can no longer acess Xbox live?

Or how my home office is unsuitable to develop for the WII -

If the iPad is just a "big iPod Touch" and not a real computer, then is it not unsurprising that it's not as "open" as a real computer.
post #24 of 109
Adobe not just tried to kill FreeHand to keep their monopoly, they did the same with FrameMaker, a most excellent product, which they bought and then kept around only for a tiny niche, discontinuing Mac support, etc.

Thanks to Adobe, there's no decent technical publishing platform on the Mac other than TeX, which is about as user friendly as the the shell.

Adobe is constantly afraid of competing in the marketplace and rather competes buy buying and then killing competing products.

Adobe is also lazy. In more than ten years, and despite Apple's constant emphasis that developers should not make any assumptions about the file system on which the OS runs, Adobe's CS5 STILL doesn't run or install on a case-sensitive file system like HFSX, even though it has been with Mac OS X since about the 10.2 days, and before that there was UFS which also was case-sensitive.

Their whining about Flash being open is intolerable. Flash brought all my computers to their knees, until there was finally a tool like ClickToFlash, which saves my computer's sanity. Hopefully Flash dies a quick and miserable death.
post #25 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

During the merger with Apple Adobe fixed the cost to Apple at $10/installed system of OS X to run Display Postscript.

When NeXTStep was $799 for user and $4999 for Developer that cost was not a problem.

When the Developer Tools went to $0 and the User is now $129 the $10/copy is massive.

The guys rewrote WindowServer and created Quartz for Display PDF and much more w/o Adobe involved and the rest is history.

Those are great points! Apple was adapting to the market, while Adobe chose to remain static to exploit an advantage (cash cow).

...mmmm... same old, same old!

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

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post #26 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by j234k View Post

It's not a question of "supporting"; Apple is actively preventing Adobe from delivering Flash to iPhone. And it's not like there aren't plenty of inefficient and buggy applications on iPhone already. Apple isn't worried about Flash being bad, Apple is worried about Flash being good enough so that many people will start using it.

But Apple isn't just keeping Flash off the iPhone, they are also keeping native applications that happen to have been developed with Adobe's Flash development environment off the iPhone. Those native applications are not using Flash, they are full Objective-C apps; they simply allow Flash developers to use the expertise that they already have instead of learning Apple's iPhone APIs.

I rarely use Flash and I don't really like it. But it's unacceptable for a hardware and OS manufacturer to tell users or developers what applications they can and cannot run. This needs to stop.

Two points of contention here:

1) Adobe's CEO stated that Flash apps for the iPhone use a runtime... that's a no-no

2) It is the iPhone's frameworks, APIs and development tools that provide and preserve the consistent UX... why would Apple want to cede that to anyone else (all other considerations aside)?

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #27 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

In case anybody has not seen this yet:



from: http://www.zeldman.com/2010/05/14/apple-responds/

Now that's funny....did you see the Adobe full page adv. today in the WSJ?

You should be a writer for Conan O'Brien!
post #28 of 109
Great article Danny, the amount of distorted shit the run of the mill pc tec pundits through apple's way, the adobe soap opera included, in unbelievable.
post #29 of 109
Best summary of this complex issue I have seen yet - thanks!!

In the end its the customers who will vote with their wallets. I'm betting on Apple
post #30 of 109
I wouldn't install flash on any of our phones (Blackberry, HTC with WinMo 6.5). No thanks. On the Macbook sure. My daughter plays all the Disney games that are in Flash.

Steve could convince Disney to support HTML5 on their kids sites if he really wanted to see it fade into history. I doubt that will happen though. Flash will be around for some time to come.
post #31 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluck View Post

I can't believe the number of people that are responding with "nice article." It is horribly distorted and inaccurate.

Apparently the goal was a "history repeats itself" type story, truth be dammed.

Wow, very informative reasoning on why you make this claim... oh wait...

Sorry man but you've done nothing to add to the discussion (except prove that you don't know the correct use of the word "dammed"). Prove why this article is false when clearly there is infinitely more logic, reasoning, and historical proof than what you provided.

Go back to your bridge you troll. I'm pretty sure you didn't read the article and just read the name (it's a start I guess) and then made your brilliant expose on how wrong Dan was... oh wait...
post #32 of 109
Computers and cell phones provide a utilitarian function. When they are either slow, buggy or full of security issues customers are unhappy.

Apple caters to customer who are willing to pay more for a product that works better.

Products, like Flash, are therefore a threat to the Mac experience.

Therefore Adobe had to either improve Flash or be dumped.

Adobe chose poorly!

Hopefully this will be their wake up call.
post #33 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by j234k View Post

The real reason Apple is using "Display PDF" is because using Postscript in the window server was a mess. It gave nice output, but it was the wrong level of abstraction for a window system.

But actually, "Display PDF" is a misnomer. Quartz these days is a run-of-the-mill window server, not significantly different from (and actually more limited than) X11. What remains of "PDF" in there as far as most applications are concerned is just the basic graphics and compositing concepts, but they are widely used in industry anyway.

Horse****. Xorg is still 3-5 years behind Quartz. Compositing is a kludge and a constant dog chasing it's tail issue with GNOME, KDE 4.x and Nvidia, let alone AMD.

Keep telling yourself Xorg is just as good. I'm using it at the moment. Linux has two gripes for years they've wanted for FREE from Apple:

Display PDF/Quartz/Quartz2D and QuickTime as if Apple is going to give it away when they've been offered billions for it and still turned it down.

The area Apple has been slacking on is keeping current with OpenGL. Ironically, they are no more than 6 months behind and yet Xorg has spent the past 10 years trying to mimic all that Apple's display technology does, not the least of which is wishing Linux had Colorsync.
post #34 of 109
FREE FREEHAND!

For more information visit http://www.freefreehand.org
post #35 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post

Thanks! I know just the person to forward this story to!

Long read. But honestly, isn't Apple becoming the new Microsoft or greed mentality? Example, macs used to be cheaper and working for Apple even in retail, paid well. Today we still don't have flash nor dvr on Apple TV and neither do we have a ProSumer desktop i7 with 4-8 cores but instead just pro workstations made with some server parts and the harsh reality is the ProSumer market, less direct x, but for musicians and rising editor, the iMac can't cut it as it lacks the express slot for the ProSumer hardware devices like the fatso or high end reverbs on chips that takes a huge chunk of processing off the CPU. You buy the express device for around $400 and it come with dime plug INS. Fatso hardware is $2000, the plug in that you could buy seperate and add is about $495. Then Apple could make pci express hardware helping the CPU drain cause the way GPU will one day. OT Was at Apple today. An Apple friend said he was thinking of getting an iMac, selling his MacBook pro and getting an ipad. He is the 3rd person I know that's doing this. You have to wonder how many are going to do this. At the same time a MacBook with 4 cores isn't going to run that long.

Some will also argue it has nothing to do with glitches but everything to do with gaming thus no flash and certainly no shockwave.

I see Apple growing but they are missing those that they once targeted 100% and now rather cater to mom and pop iLife users. Heck, iWeb could be a killer program if they put sone time into it but I read the logic staff is tiny and Shake? Well that's over and it's to bad. Apple has the money to do both and I wish they would. Look at Pro Tools/Avid, they were smart enough to pick up maudio as prosumer hardware and software is big business. Gaming I read here is supposedly bigger than DVD and music combined. Hmm

my 0.8811 cents. (Grin).
post #36 of 109
So what? A similarly themed story could have been written about Apple, Microsoft, EA, UBI Soft and a long list of corporations with their huge pile of crap. And they all have the same rotten smell.
post #37 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by wygit View Post


HTML5 is not a replacement for Flash ... yet. Content providers all over the world are not going to, overnight, fire all their Flash developers and hire, what... people to write code? For a "standard-based" platform that's in draft spec?

You are correct. HTML5 is not, in its current form, a replacement for Flash. Neither is Flash Lite.
post #38 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidfcp View Post

Long read. But honestly, isn't Apple becoming the new Microsoft or greed mentality? Example, macs used to be cheaper and working for Apple even in retail, paid well. Today we still don't have flash nor dvr on Apple TV and neither do we have a ProSumer desktop i7 with 4-8 cores but instead just pro workstations made with some server parts and the harsh reality is the ProSumer market, less direct x, but for musicians and rising editor, the iMac can't cut it as it lacks the express slot for the ProSumer hardware devices like the fatso or high end reverbs on chips that takes a huge chunk of processing off the CPU. You buy the express device for around $400 and it come with dime plug INS. Fatso hardware is $2000, the plug in that you could buy seperate and add is about $495. Then Apple could make pci express hardware helping the CPU drain cause the way GPU will one day. OT Was at Apple today. An Apple friend said he was thinking of getting an iMac, selling his MacBook pro and getting an ipad. He is the 3rd person I know that's doing this. You have to wonder how many are going to do this. At the same time a MacBook with 4 cores isn't going to run that long.

Some will also argue it has nothing to do with glitches but everything to do with gaming thus no flash and certainly no shockwave.

I see Apple growing but they are missing those that they once targeted 100% and now rather cater to mom and pop iLife users. Heck, iWeb could be a killer program if they put sone time into it but I read the logic staff is tiny and Shake? Well that's over and it's to bad. Apple has the money to do both and I wish they would. Look at Pro Tools/Avid, they were smart enough to pick up maudio as prosumer hardware and software is big business. Gaming I read here is supposedly bigger than DVD and music combined. Hmm

my 0.8811 cents. (Grin).

What? I'm sorry but I couldn't follow anything you said. Coherent thought would be helpful.
post #39 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Steve could convince Disney to support HTML5 on their kids sites if he really wanted to see it fade into history. I doubt that will happen though. Flash will be around for some time to come.

Actually, Disney has a site that works on my iPad, so they're already apparently working on it. Their games don't work, but it's a start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidfcp View Post

Long read. But honestly, isn't Apple becoming the new Microsoft or greed mentality? Example, macs used to be cheaper and working for Apple even in retail, paid well.

I quit reading after this because you're obviously imagining things.

When were Macs EVER cheaper than PCs. Comparable to similar quality PCs, sometimes, but never significantly cheaper.

Or maybe you mean that they were cheaper than they are now. Nope, that's not true either. My IIsi was an entry level machine when I bought it - at $2500. I just bought a $599 Mini.

When did Apple pay more in retail than they do today?

Please feel free to join us in the real world.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #40 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post

Adobe not just tried to kill FreeHand to keep their monopoly, they did the same with FrameMaker, a most excellent product, which they bought and then kept around only for a tiny niche, discontinuing Mac support, etc.

I used to be a huge Director and Lingo fan and I still prefer its interface to Flash. Adobe should have rolled the two into a single product. Now Director languishes in some backwater page.

It's funny how some of the "exciting new features" of AI CS5 are things that appeared in FreeHand eight years ago. And the selection tool in AI are STILL as clunky and annoying as ever. FreeHand's intelligent tools feature was a huge time saver - tools that could figure out what you wanted to do and switch tools automatically (eg, move the object cursor over a point and it turned into a tool for selecting points - a bit of simple imagination that was and still is lacking at Adobe.) Despite its strengths, Illustrator is still as much as a decade behind FreeHand in many areas.

Two other examples worthy of note: When the top two Mac magazines (MacUser (US) and MacWorld) were both on the scene there was a lot of material every month for mainstream Mac users. Then MW bought MU and killed it. This might have slimmed down the competition, but it was a great disservice to Mac users.

Another example is Maya. Alias used to promote the heck out of it and it was the top application of its kind, then AutoDesk bought Alias and, while AD continues to tweak Maya, it does absolutely nothing to promote it (as with Adobe and Director). As a result sales dropped precipitously, just as with Adobe and Director. As for Maya, this is a mixed blessing. While you no longer have to pay $8 K for Unlimited, the value of Maya on a resume has been greatly diminished and it is extremely rare to see Maya on a job posting.
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