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Adobe-Apple war on Flash reminiscent of PostScript struggle - Page 3

post #81 of 109
It will crash that one page without bringing down the entire browser. We would prefer no crashes though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

I keep seeing comments about how Flash keeps crashing Safari. Isn't the new Safari in Snow Leopard supposed prevent plugins from crashing the entire browser?
post #82 of 109
H.264 encoding without the Flash wrapper is up 160% since the introduction of the iPad.
post #83 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Look up the definition of the word 'beta'. Flash 10.1 has not been released yet. And the beta has crashed in every demo that Adobe has done so pardon me if I assume that your standards for 'works just fine' must be awfully low.

There is nothing to lookup. The Flash player is shipping with HTC Desire. It works great. Something must be wrong on your end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You're even more confused than I thought. Flash has NEVER been an open standard, nor has it ever been possible for anyone to write their own Flash player.

There is specification of the Flash SWF format as a free download and Adobe encourages you to develop your own flash player without any royalties. If this is not open, what is ?
post #84 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

There is nothing to lookup. The Flash player is shipping with HTC Desire. It works great. Something must be wrong on your end.

Flash lite not the full Flash. Flash 10.1 is the full Flash that we've been waiting for.

Quote:
There is specification of the Flash SWF format as a free download and Adobe encourages you to develop your own flash player without any royalties. If this is not open, what is ?

That is the Flash player - one part of Flash. No one outside of Adobe can take the Flash source code and do whatever they want with it.
post #85 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

*snip*

Dude look at his username. Quit feeding the troll.
post #86 of 109
[QUOTE=jragosta;1634099]Wow. I proved that you didn't know what you were talking about and you launch into some bizarre (and ungrammatical) rant. Go figure.

How did you prove me wrong, but taking one link, I provided you and twisting the interpretation of the data for your own means. By your opinion all my links are wild guesses except for one. Sorry but I think as I said you are biased and my links show that. As I said I will read your comments in future with a LOT of salt, since your comments lack any factual support and you are not open minded. As I said previously you want to win the discussion, not have a discussion.

A lot of experts must be having wild guesses and you must be right

P.S. here is another link for you that uses Apple's company filings to show that iPhone 3GS GM 55.5% http://seekingalpha.com/article/1082...for-the-iphone
post #87 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Flash lite not the full Flash. Flash 10.1 is the full Flash that we've been waiting for.

Are you sure ? I tried to use a quite a few flash enabled sites and it works with all of them without any problems. Until I find a flash web site, that won't work, I just don't care what is the name of the Flash plugin in my phone. And even if you are right and this is just limited version of Flash, that is still better experience that I can use at least some Flash web sites, compared to "best web experience" on iPad, where I can see just that blue cube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

That is the Flash player - one part of Flash. No one outside of Adobe can take the Flash source code and do whatever they want with it.

Don't get your reasoning. The Flash specification (SWF) is open and published. You (or Apple, or anybody) can take it and create better Flash player than Adobe. Adobe won't sue you, won't try to make money from you, in fact I am pretty sure they will help you with your efforts. If this is not open, then I don't know what it is.

On the contrary, HTML5 is still not there, it is yet unclear what components will make it in and it is quite possible that it will contain closed, proprietary component (h.264) that might not be even free to use. HTML5 might be the future, but it is clearly not there yet. Flash might not be the future, but it is the present. Current iPad will be obsolete before HTML5 is really relevant (i.e. replaces Flash as de-facto standard, which is massively used)
post #88 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post


How did you prove me wrong, but taking one link, I provided you and twisting the interpretation of the data for your own means. By your opinion all my links are wild guesses except for one. Sorry but I think as I said you are biased and my links show that. As I said I will read your comments in future with a LOT of salt, since your comments lack any factual support and you are not open minded. As I said previously you want to win the discussion, not have a discussion.

A lot of experts must be having wild guesses and you must be right

P.S. here is another link for you that uses Apple's company filings to show that iPhone 3GS GM 55.5% http://seekingalpha.com/article/1082...for-the-iphone

I already explained why look at the margin on deferred revenue is not the same as margin on the entire product line.

If you don't understand simple economic concepts, do yourself a favor and stop making yourself look foolish. Get an education about economics first, and THEN post.
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post #89 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

It will crash that one page without bringing down the entire browser. We would prefer no crashes though.

Not in my experience. When Flash crashes Safari, the entire window closes and I get a dialog asking if I want to relaunch Safari. To me, that's crashing Safari. I wouldn't know what it looks like to crash just the page because it has never happened to me, it's always been the entire Safari app.
post #90 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I already explained why look at the margin on deferred revenue is not the same as margin on the entire product line.

If you don't understand simple economic concepts, do yourself a favor and stop making yourself look foolish. Get an education about economics first, and THEN post.

I understand simple economic concepts, here it more simple for you http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2009/07/...gross-margins/, pity you never left kindergarden with your childish behaviour and name calling
here is paragraph taken from my link, which explains to you very simple layman terms:

This is complicated stuff, but the bottom line, as Muller points out, is that iPhone profitability has been rising to the point where gross margins on the device are over 50%.

Tell what the chart says for GM in 09 maybe over 50%. keep on coming, I am not the one looking foolish.
post #91 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

I understand simple economic concepts, here it more simple for you http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2009/07/...gross-margins/, pity you never left kindergarden with your childish behaviour and name calling
here is paragraph taken from my link, which explains to you very simple layman terms:

This is complicated stuff, but the bottom line, as Muller points out, is that iPhone profitability has been rising to the point where gross margins on the device are over 50%.

Tell what the chart says for GM in 09 maybe over 50%. keep on coming, I am not the one looking foolish.

Note that you're once again using gross margins on the REFORECAST, not gross margins on the product line. You've now made the same mistake at least 3 times - even though I keep point out the fallacy in that.

Here's a tip for you - no matter how many times you keep repeating the same fallacy, it will not become true.

As soon as you have an advanced business degree and experience running several multi-million dollar companies, you can feel free to correct me. Until then, keep your mouth shut and you might learn something - instead of making the same mistakes over and over and over.
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post #92 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Look up the definition of the word 'beta'. Flash 10.1 has not been released yet. And the beta has crashed in every demo that Adobe has done so pardon me if I assume that your standards for 'works just fine' must be awfully low.

Looks like this demo of Flash 10.1 on a Nexus One appears to be running just fine.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y7XJI4NN7k

Multiple sites and not a single crash. Admit it, Flash is coming along pretty well for mobile devices.

Just a few more days until Google I/O that makes Flash official. What will you say then if all the live demos go perfectly well? And what about after it gets released in June and still continues running fine?

Only time will tell...
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post #93 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Looks like this demo of Flash 10.1 on a Nexus One appears to be running just fine.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y7XJI4NN7k

Multiple sites and not a single crash. Admit it, Flash is coming along pretty well for mobile devices.

Just a few more days until Google I/O that makes Flash official. What will you say then if all the live demos go perfectly well? And what about after it gets released in June and still continues running fine?

Only time will tell...

IF they actually release it on time and IF it actually works the way they say it will, then 1% of all smart phones will have the ability to run Flash. No iPhones on the market today will have the ability to run Flash, nor will the 99% of smart phones out there that are not running the latest Android software with Flash.

It really doesn't change much - even IF it does run well.
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post #94 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

IF they actually release it on time and IF it actually works the way they say it will, then 1% of all smart phones will have the ability to run Flash. No iPhones on the market today will have the ability to run Flash, nor will the 99% of smart phones out there that are not running the latest Android software with Flash.

It really doesn't change much - even IF it does run well.

Ah, so now success means "doesn't matter much". The way I see it, Adobe showing off a working Flash 10.1 on Android acts as a stepping stone for the other companies. Besides all the usual Google partners (Samsung, LG, HTC, etc), I'm sure Nokia and RIM are closely watching Google I/O. What's to stop the other companies from jumping onboard as well?

As Android moves up in market adoption, it'll inevitablly overtake the iPhone (even the IDC predicts that). Lets say, for the sake of argument, that Nokia jumps onboard too and full Flash is working on Symbian. It's my opinion that RIM will eventually jump on too if Nokia does. Then we have the majority of smartphones being Flash enabled, while the iPhone stands alone.

The real question then becomes can Flash jump from Android to Symbian to BB OS before HTML5 takes over?
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post #95 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Ah, so now success means "doesn't matter much".

No, it doesn't.

The major issue being discussed here is whether Apple was right not to wait for Adobe to release Flash for the iPhone. Success on 1 GHz Android phones is no indication that Adobe would EVER have released an iPhone version (in fact, it supports the belief that they are incapable of doing so - since they require 50-100% more CPU power than the iPhone currently provides).

Success on high powered Android phones (even if it occurs, which isn't yet an established fact given how many Adobe demos have crashed and burned) doesn't do a thing to suggest that Apple made the wrong decision.
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post #96 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

No, it doesn't.

The major issue being discussed here is whether Apple was right not to wait for Adobe to release Flash for the iPhone. Success on 1 GHz Android phones is no indication that Adobe would EVER have released an iPhone version (in fact, it supports the belief that they are incapable of doing so - since they require 50-100% more CPU power than the iPhone currently provides).

Success on high powered Android phones (even if it occurs, which isn't yet an established fact given how many Adobe demos have crashed and burned) doesn't do a thing to suggest that Apple made the wrong decision.

For the discussion as applied to the iPhone, then yes, I will agree with you. Steve Jobs has commanded that Flash will never run on the iPhone and that's that.

Like I said, if Nokia and RIM jump onboard, then the majority of the world's OSs will be Flash enabled for the duration of Flash's life on the internet. I know Symbian already has Flash Lite, so there's interest there. And being a previous BB owner, I know that there's a good deal of interest in getting Flash working. I haven't read much on MS's stance with WP7 though... Nor HP's plans with webOS (though probably nobody really knows).

I guess I'm just more optimistic than you are. The latest demos have shown that Flash runs just fine on Android 2.2. I'm willing to see what the future holds first before just writing them off based on some early beta tests. Just like the iPhone 4.0 has a good future, even though current betas have lots of bugs and causes crashes of all sorts. Personally, I'd prefer the option of having the choice open to me. If it comes with a toggle switch, I'd be more than happy.
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post #97 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Ah, so now success means "doesn't matter much". The way I see it, Adobe showing off a working Flash 10.1 on Android acts as a stepping stone for the other companies. Besides all the usual Google partners (Samsung, LG, HTC, etc), I'm sure Nokia and RIM are closely watching Google I/O. What's to stop the other companies from jumping onboard as well?

As Android moves up in market adoption, it'll inevitablly overtake the iPhone (even the IDC predicts that). Lets say, for the sake of argument, that Nokia jumps onboard too and full Flash is working on Symbian. It's my opinion that RIM will eventually jump on too if Nokia does. Then we have the majority of smartphones being Flash enabled, while the iPhone stands alone.

The real question then becomes can Flash jump from Android to Symbian to BB OS before HTML5 takes over?

It was pointed out to me that Symbian is already running full flash on the n900. I didn't know that. My N97 test phone runs flash, And it's pretty sure Nokia will be having the new 10.1 on their phones as well. If, the player runs well, the other companies such as BB, will be looking for ways to differentiate itself from iphone, and flash player could easily be one of them. Blackberry and adobe officially announced they were working together to bring the player to BB, as did microsoft.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

snip...

Success on high powered Android phones (even if it occurs, which isn't yet an established fact given how many Adobe demos have crashed and burned) doesn't do a thing to suggest that Apple made the wrong decision.

Not too many developers I know who use flash, feel it was wrong to not allow flash player as it is on the current iphones. Including myself.
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post #98 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

It was pointed out to me that Symbian is already running full flash on the n900. I didn't know that. My N97 test phone runs flash, And it's pretty sure Nokia will be having the new 10.1 on their phones as well. If, the player runs well, the other companies such as BB, will be looking for ways to differentiate itself from iphone, and flash player could easily be one of them. Blackberry and adobe officially announced they were working together to bring the player to BB, as did microsoft.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.

Interesting to read that. I know it's a broad generalization, but I'd love to see Flash be able to bring cross-platform gaming.

There are plenty of multiplayer games on the iPhone that I wish the developers would start moving to Android. But until the do, I'm stuck with waiting. Having everyone be able to run a unified set of code for games would be huge.
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post #99 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

FI guess I'm just more optimistic than you are. The latest demos have shown that Flash runs just fine on Android 2.2. I'm willing to see what the future holds first before just writing them off based on some early beta tests. Just like the iPhone 4.0 has a good future, even though current betas have lots of bugs and causes crashes of all sorts. Personally, I'd prefer the option of having the choice open to me. If it comes with a toggle switch, I'd be more than happy.

Other than the fact that the public demos all crashed and ate battery charge like crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

It was pointed out to me that Symbian is already running full flash on the n900. I didn't know that.

Except that 9.4 is really Flash Lite, not a full version. See the top of the page:
http://www.flashlite4nokia.com/n900
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post #100 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Other than the fact that the public demos all crashed and ate battery charge like crazy.



Except that 9.4 is really Flash Lite, not a full version. See the top of the page:
http://www.flashlite4nokia.com/n900

Not all public demos have crashed like crazy. That is a over dramatization of things. It didn't crash at all at the demo I saw at the conference I attended. I know of several others it didn't crash at either.

You might be referring to the demo where the guy did an unplanned demo with an older version of the player. That one went around like wildfire.

As for the n900, I'll have to check. Someone posted saying it was flash 9.4. There -is no- flash lite 9.4, there's a typo on that page, and it's a question of whether it's the "lite" reference, or the version number.

Flash lite is only in version 3. But it would make sense to me if it were flash lite 3, since that's what my n97 runs.
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post #101 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Other than the fact that the public demos all crashed and ate battery charge like crazy.

The YouTube video I've link to elsewhere here show that it runs fine. From what I've been reading, that's the latest Flash code.

Your logic is on this is analogeous to watching films of man trying to create the airplane and failing a few times and then proclaiming that man will never create a flying device.

Yes those demos crashed. But the latest code hasn't crashed. On top of that, an unrelated tech blog site has managed to get their hands on Android 2.2 and ran videos and games outside of a controlled environment and it didn't crash. Google I/O starts tomorrow, so we'll all see officially how Flash will fare.

As for the battery claims, I'd like to see your sources. I'm truly interested in this.
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post #102 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

Are you sure ? I tried to use a quite a few flash enabled sites and it works with all of them without any problems. Until I find a flash web site, that won't work, I just don't care what is the name of the Flash plugin in my phone. And even if you are right and this is just limited version of Flash, that is still better experience that I can use at least some Flash web sites, compared to "best web experience" on iPad, where I can see just that blue cube.

If that was the full Flash then we wouldn't be talking about Flash 10.1. Why don't you think any other more capable phones are running the full Flash that you think yours is?


Quote:
Don't get your reasoning. The Flash specification (SWF) is open and published. You (or Apple, or anybody) can take it and create better Flash player than Adobe. Adobe won't sue you, won't try to make money from you, in fact I am pretty sure they will help you with your efforts. If this is not open, then I don't know what it is.

Flash is more than just a media wrapper its a full run time. Media playback is just one thing it does. The other parts of Flash are not open source.

Quote:
On the contrary, HTML5 is still not there, it is yet unclear what components will make it in and it is quite possible that it will contain closed, proprietary component (h.264) that might not be even free to use. HTML5 might be the future, but it is clearly not there yet. Flash might not be the future, but it is the present. Current iPad will be obsolete before HTML5 is really relevant (i.e. replaces Flash as de-facto standard, which is massively used)

It is totally clear what components of HTML5 are in development and being used. The W3C is completely open about HTML5 development. H.264 is not closed, why do you guys continue with this lie. Technology changes so quickly that living in the present you will find yourself in the past.
post #103 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Flash is more than just a media wrapper its a full run time. Media playback is just one thing it does. The other parts of Flash are not open source.
.

The flash player is the runtime. It's open source. If you google it, you'll find all sorts of flash runtime projects.

What other parts of flash are there?
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post #104 of 109
"While Adobe can argue that elements of Flash (through its Open Screen Project) are indeed open source, Flash itself is not an open standard.

Unlike HTML5 and CSS3 and related technologies, Flash is not an open standard on the web. Adobe might license some of its technology free of charge, and it may have some of its SWF spec available, but the entirety of the Flash ecosystem is not open, nor is it a web standard. It’s hypocritical for Adobe to say that they support freedom of choice when that freedom doesn’t extend to implementations of its own technologies."


Adobe and Apple: Please Spare Us the Platitudes About “Open”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

The flash player is the runtime. It's open source. If you google it, you'll find all sorts of flash runtime projects.

What other parts of flash are there?
post #105 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

"While Adobe can argue that elements of Flash (through its Open Screen Project) are indeed open source, Flash itself is not an open standard.

Unlike HTML5 and CSS3 and related technologies, Flash is not an open standard on the web. Adobe might license some of its technology free of charge, and it may have some of its SWF spec available, but the entirety of the Flash ecosystem is not open, nor is it a web standard. Its hypocritical for Adobe to say that they support freedom of choice when that freedom doesnt extend to implementations of its own technologies."


Adobe and Apple: Please Spare Us the Platitudes About Open

but what does that really have to with the argument about swf being open? It is. And so is the compiler. In fact you don't even need the flash ide to compile a swf. The open screen fund has nothing to do with te swf format being open sourced. The back and forthing is just fodder for people to argue about in forums. Look, my google link says this!

In the end, who cares. The whole we're more open than you is stupid. It's about a couple companies with lots at stake, and to suggest one company is more altruistic than the other is totally naive. That's my opinion.
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post #106 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

but what does that really have to with the argument about swf being open? It is.

I never said SWF wasn't open, I said Flash as a whole isn't open source.

Quote:
In the end, who cares. The whole we're more open than you is stupid. It's about a couple companies with lots at stake, and to suggest one company is more altruistic than the other is totally naive. That's my opinion.

It does make a difference. Apple isn't attempting to replace Flash with its own proprietary software. Apple wants to replace Flash with software that is truly open source in the real sense of the term.
post #107 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I never said SWF wasn't open, I said Flash as a whole isn't open source.

{B}But what's you point here. "As a whole". The player is open, and the compiler is open. You don't Adobe, to build compile, or play your flash file.[ I'm not feeding the "we're more open argument for adobe, but I prefer to see facts as they are./B]

It does make a difference. Apple isn't attempting to replace Flash with its own proprietary software. Apple wants to replace Flash with software that is truly open source in the real sense of the term.

html5, afaik, isn't truly open source at all.

It's an open standard in that many parties are involved in agreeing on the standards, but I guess that's why it'll be 2020 before it's considered a full standard, and adobe releases a new "standard" every 18 months. I'm sure apple knows a thing or two, about controlling a platform so that it could move faster to adopt new features eh?

html5 is open in the sense that you can create hmtl5 without buying someone's tool and isn't controlled by one company rather than a number of "invited guests", but you can't download the source and modify it to your liking and release it as a new version. So no, it's not open source in the real sense of the term at all.
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post #108 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Note that you're once again using gross margins on the REFORECAST, not gross margins on the product line. You've now made the same mistake at least 3 times - even though I keep point out the fallacy in that.

Here's a tip for you - no matter how many times you keep repeating the same fallacy, it will not become true.

As soon as you have an advanced business degree and experience running several multi-million dollar companies, you can feel free to correct me. Until then, keep your mouth shut and you might learn something - instead of making the same mistakes over and over and over.


Please get over yourself, if you had that experience, you would know how to communicate without being so insulting, it called influencing people. Majority of successful people can discuss their point without getting 'high and might' and dropping insults. You started from beginning and you have not stopped. This is a discussion group, as I said again, I am here to discuss with people, not show how superior I think I am to the next person. I leave you to your arrogant ways, but I hope you do have advanced degree and success at running several multi-million dollar companies because it would be sad, actually it is sad saying that just to prove a point with someone, you do not know and will never meet.
post #109 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by j234k View Post

It's not a question of "supporting"; Apple is actively preventing Adobe from delivering Flash to iPhone. And it's not like there aren't plenty of inefficient and buggy applications on iPhone already. Apple isn't worried about Flash being bad, Apple is worried about Flash being good enough so that many people will start using it.

But Apple isn't just keeping Flash off the iPhone, they are also keeping native applications that happen to have been developed with Adobe's Flash development environment off the iPhone. Those native applications are not using Flash, they are full Objective-C apps; they simply allow Flash developers to use the expertise that they already have instead of learning Apple's iPhone APIs.

I rarely use Flash and I don't really like it. But it's unacceptable for a hardware and OS manufacturer to tell users or developers what applications they can and cannot run. This needs to stop.

Rarely seen a post here whith which I so fully and totally agree. I'd like to add that (a good version of) Flash could form a threat to both the Appstore and iPhone OS. Jobs wants iPhone apps to be exclusive to the iPhone. If the same app would be available in Flash, the revenue (if any) would not go to Apple and still be playable on the iPhone and iPad. Many Flash games are available for free so why would an iPhone/iPad user buy that same game in the appstore? The same goes for movies. If movies were available in Flash, what would be the incentive to buy the same movie in the iTunes store? The second threat is that Flash might be used to build a whole operating system. That might create a competitor for Apple which is something no commercial company wishes for. Better to create a consensus against Adobe and Flash now, before they become too popular. The sad thing is that Jobs has to resort to half truths and outright lies to obtain his goals. If I were Adobe I would concentrate on making a real good version of Flash and teaming up with content providers and hardware makers (Nvidea for instance). Forget Apple and let Jobs say whatever he wants.
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