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Mosque planned for ground zero.

Poll Results: Are you in favor of a new mosque near ground zero?

 
  • 54% (20)
    Yes.
  • 45% (17)
    No.
37 Total Votes  
post #1 of 447
5/24/10 at 3:10pm
Thread Starter 
I would like to think that everyone would welcome a new mosque close to ground zero as a sign of hope and unity between peoples overcoming hatred and mistrust.

Here's the story from the BBC- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8691382.stm

Your thoughts?

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post #2 of 447
5/24/10 at 3:17pm
On the site of their largest attack against the US? No thanks.
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post #3 of 447
5/24/10 at 3:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

On the site of their largest attack against the US? No thanks.

They didn't attack anybody. Do you really think they would be allowed to build a mosque if they had?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #4 of 447
5/24/10 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They didn't attack anybody. Do you really think they would be allowed to build a mosque if they had?

Really? Last I checked, Muslim terrorists recruited in Mosques carried out the attacks of 9/11/01 in the name of Islam.
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post #5 of 447
5/24/10 at 3:30pm
It's interesting to me how the way one phrases a question can shape the responses (or lack thereof) in a survey or poll. In this case for example, look at these two options:

"Are you in favor of a new mosque near ground zero?"

"Do you oppose a new mosque near ground zero?"

I mention this because I would not necessarily be opposed (it would depend on the specific details involved I suppose), but that doesn't mean I'm in favor of it. Subtle but important difference.

In any case, assuming this is an entirely private affair (i.e., private owners selling private property to a private organization to build a privately funded religious building), I would not be opposed to such a thing. It's their money, their property, let them do what they want.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #6 of 447
5/24/10 at 3:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

It's interesting to me how the way one phrases a question can shape the responses (or lack thereof) in a survey or poll. In this case for example, look at these two options:

"Are you in favor of a new mosque near ground zero?"

"Do you oppose a new mosque near ground zero?"

I mention this because I would not necessarily be opposed (it would depend on the specific details involved I suppose), but that doesn't mean I'm in favor of it. Subtle but important difference.

In any case, assuming this is an entirely private affair (i.e., private owners selling private property to a private organization to build a privately funded religious building), I would not be opposed to such a thing. It's their money, their property, let them do what they want.

I could have worded it differently but people can vote for my option of "yes" and be opposed to this particular mosque. I believe it is planned to go on a site that would mean ripping down an old Italian building of some sort which might mean that I wouldn't favor the particular site because of loosing a perhaps distinct old building, but I would be very happy at another site somewhere nearby.

You're not opposed to it but do you think it is a positive thing to have happen, as I suggest, to help build bridges between people?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #7 of 447
5/24/10 at 3:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Really? Last I checked, Muslim terrorists recruited in Mosques carried out the attacks of 9/11/01 in the name of Islam.

That was different people. Are all Christians just like Bush?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #8 of 447
5/24/10 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That was different people. Are all Christians just like Bush?

You mean patriots who love America? I should hope so.
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post #9 of 447
5/24/10 at 3:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

You mean patriots who love America? I should hope so.

So you think the 7,000,000 or so followers of Islam in the US, some of which serve in the US military, aren't patriotic citizens?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #10 of 447
5/24/10 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So you think the 7,000,000 or so followers of Islam, some of which serve in the US military, aren't patriotic citizens?

Like M. Hasan? No. A true Muslim's only allegiance can be to Islam.
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post #11 of 447
5/24/10 at 4:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Like M. Hasan? No. A true Muslim's only allegiance can be to Islam.

That still leaves 6,999,999. Got more?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #12 of 447
5/24/10 at 4:07pm
Where the I don't care option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Like M. Hasan? No. A true Muslim's only allegiance can be to Islam.

That's one person.

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post #13 of 447
5/24/10 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That still leaves 6,999,999. Got more?

You may want to watch the news once in a while. There are terror attacks and homicides in the name of Islam on a daily basis.
I don't trust anyone who is a member of a cult.
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post #14 of 447
5/24/10 at 4:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

You may want to watch the news once in a while. There are terror attacks and homicides in the name of Islam on a daily basis.
I don't trust anyone who is a member of a cult.

Is Christianity a cult in your eyes too? Can you name these killers from the US, I'm hoping you can find a few more and get that 6,999,999 down by more than the 0.000000001% of the Islam population you're at so far.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #15 of 447
5/24/10 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Is Christianity a cult in your eyes too? Can you name these killers from the US, I'm hoping you can find a few more and get that 6,999,999 down by more than the 0.000000001% of the Islam population.

Certain sects of Christianity are. LDS, for instance.
You are kidding, right? Ever hear of J. A. Muhammed and L. Malvo, aka the beltway snipers? How about H. Akbar?
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post #16 of 447
5/24/10 at 4:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Certain sects of Christianity are. LDS, for instance.
You are kidding, right? Ever hear of J. A. Muhammed and L. Malvo, aka the beltway snipers? How about H. Akbar?

I think you're kidding. You've come up with less than ten people out of 7,000,000 people and are labeling them all terrorists and unpatriotic blah blah blah. Have you no shame?

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #17 of 447
5/24/10 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I think you're kidding. You've come up with less than ten people out of 7,000,000 people and are labeling them all terrorists and unpatriotic blah blah blah. Have you no shame?

There is no Muslim-light. One who is a devout Muslim must convert or kill the infidel. Conversion by the sword is one of the pillars of Islam. A true Muslim's only allegiance can be to Islam. If they haven't carried out, supported or sat by while terror acts are being discussed, planned or carried out, they are not true Muslims.
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post #18 of 447
5/24/10 at 4:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

There is no Muslim-light. One who is a devout Muslim must convert or kill the infidel. Conversion by the sword is one of the pillars of Islam. A true Muslim's only allegiance can be to Islam. If they haven't carried out, supported or sat by while terror acts are being discussed, planned or carried out, they are not true Muslims.

Then the US is full of non Muslims and you have nothing to worry about, except for a tiny minority.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #19 of 447
5/24/10 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

There is no Muslim-light. One who is a devout Muslim must convert or kill the infidel. Conversion by the sword is one of the pillars of Islam. A true Muslim's only allegiance can be to Islam. If they haven't carried out, supported or sat by while terror acts are being discussed, planned or carried out, they are not true Muslims.

I think that you can carry this point much too far. Muslim does not equal terrorist. There is no direct a to b correlation here.

Yes, a true muslim is required (encouraged for some is a better term) to convert non-muslims to their faith, but like many religions there are extreme examples of how to accomplish that and the not so extreme ways. Conversion by the sword is used by some, but would not fly in the US under any circumstances. Here they use standard "western" conversion practices, showing what the person can get out of the religion, how it makes their life better, how it can make them feel better about themselves, etc...

Under Islam there can be no peace until all are Muslims. Does that mean that the mosques are all used for terrorist training grounds? No, and peace is not necessarily measured by the level of violence either. It depends on who you are asking and how they interpret their holy books. All that to say, you are over generalizing and it is seriously hurting your argument.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #20 of 447
5/24/10 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Your thoughts?

I'd rather see a memorial to the victims of radical Muslim jihad on 09/11/01 at Ground Zero... as opposed to a hole in the ground. Inappropriate for a mosque.
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post #21 of 447
5/24/10 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

I'd rather see a memorial to the victims of radical Muslim jihad on 09/11/01 at Ground Zero... as opposed to a hole in the ground. Inappropriate for a mosque.

After viewing the Video (had to drop my ignore to see the post) I think this is an overblown point. The mosque is not at ground zero, it is 2 blocks away. This is not an issue that is worth getting worked up over. If they were asking to be allowed to build right on ground zero I could see the reason to ask questions.

Should they build one on the site, no, it would send a message to those who lost loved ones that their feelings in this matter did not mean anything. Should they open one a couple of blocks away? If they want to, who cares? They should however be prepared for whatever issues may come because of it. IT may have been 10 years, but the citizens of New York will not forget in this lifetime and the emotional results will take a long time to subside.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #22 of 447
5/24/10 at 10:31pm
The US is a free country, or so we are told over and over. "Freedom" is cried on every corner.

That a mosque or any other building can be built anywhere is an example of freedom.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #23 of 447
5/25/10 at 5:18pm
Image is far too large. Resize it.
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post #24 of 447
5/25/10 at 8:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Is Christianity a cult in your eyes too? ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Certain sects of Christianity are. LDS, for instance...


Yes, ALL "sects" of Christianity as well as Islam are cults. Look up the definition. The caveat is, the people of any given cult don't see themselves as part of a cult, but part of a religion. Two words, same meaning.

Imagine how much nicer the world COULD be if these people would just outgrow their teddy-bears.
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post #25 of 447
5/26/10 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

The US is a free country, or so we are told over and over. "Freedom" is cried on every corner.

That a mosque or any other building can be built anywhere is an example of freedom.

It's not a question of whether it "can" be built. It's whether it should be built. I think that many would find it highly offensive. It would be like building a German culture club in Jerusalem. Actually, it would be much worse. Not a good idea.
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post #26 of 447
5/26/10 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

The US is a free country, or so we are told over and over. "Freedom" is cried on every corner.

That a mosque or any other building can be built anywhere is an example of freedom.


Replying to myself: it was approved.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_589894.html

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #27 of 447
5/26/10 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It's not a question of whether it "can" be built. It's whether it should be built.

The problem here is when people's feelings, desires and opinions other than those whose private property is involved start thinking that they should have a say (in any kind of authoritative or controlling way) over this. So zoning/safety issues aside, the best anyone outside of the property owners ought to be able to do is express their opinion.

There's a disturbing collectivist mindset trend going on in this country where everyone seems to think their opinion about something gives them a right to control the actions of others. I'm not necessarily saying this is true about you. It's just an observation about people from almost all political stripes: a profound and deep disrespect for both individualism and private property rights.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I think that many would find it highly offensive.

No doubt.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #28 of 447
5/26/10 at 9:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Replying to myself: it was approved.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_589894.html

Fantastic! This marks a new loud voice for Islam in the US. One where the acts of a few will never be allowed to drown out the voices of the many.

Racists and hate mongers beware, you're looking pretty f'ing evil.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #29 of 447
5/26/10 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Fantastic! This marks a new loud voice for Islam in the US. One where the acts of a few will never be allowed to drown out the voices of the many.

Racists and hate mongers beware, you're looking pretty f'ing evil.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #30 of 447
5/26/10 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Fantastic! This marks a new loud voice for Islam in the US. One where the acts of a few will never be allowed to drown out the voices of the many.

Racists and hate mongers beware, you're looking pretty f'ing evil.

Actually, it means nothing. It doesn't mean it's going to be built. The board actually has no control.
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post #31 of 447
5/26/10 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Fantastic! This marks a new loud voice for Islam in the US. One where the acts of a few will never be allowed to drown out the voices of the many.

Racists and hate mongers beware, you're looking pretty f'ing evil.

You mean new recruiting center?

Since when are those who follow a hate-filled religion a race? Are LDS Mormons also a race?
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post #32 of 447
5/26/10 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

You mean new recruiting center?

Since when are those who follow a hate-filled religion a race? Are LDS Mormons also a race?

No, they're Morans.
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post #33 of 447
5/26/10 at 6:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

No, they're Morans.



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post #34 of 447
5/26/10 at 8:55pm
I'm an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (I'm a Mormon).

I do not speak for the church - my views are my own.

That said, I have no problem with a Mosque being built near Ground Zero or anywhere else in this country as long as it is in accordance with the law.

I believe that in large part, our Muslim brothers and sisters want to peacefully coexist. Extremist elements are trying to spread their hate-filed ideology under the guise of Islam, but they do not represent Islam as a whole.

Besides - denying any religion its Constitutional rights sets a dangerous precedent. And the consequences of such a blatant disregard for the First Amendment would not be limited to religion.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #35 of 447
5/27/10 at 5:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

That said, I have no problem with a Mosque being built near Ground Zero or anywhere else in this country as long as it is in accordance with the law.

I support the idea of religious freedom but a mosque anywhere near Ground Zero will simply foster unrest despite any peaceful intent so why build it? What is the background reasoning here? Are there not thousands of other locations? Why two blocks from the very symbol of fanatical Muslim hatred?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I believe that in large part, our Muslim brothers and sisters want to peacefully coexist. Extremist elements are trying to spread their hate-filed ideology under the guise of Islam, but they do not represent Islam as a whole.

I agree in part but the Muslims here in this nation are not speaking up in condemning Sharia Law nor are they condemning fanatical members who practice jihad. That is tacit acceptance of it. If "our Muslim brothers and sisters" really wish to distance themselves with the practice of jidad let's hear their condemnation of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Besides - denying any religion its Constitutional rights sets a dangerous precedent. And the consequences of such a blatant disregard for the First Amendment would not be limited to religion.

What of the constitutional rights of the 1500 bodies in the hole at Ground Zero? Who's looking out for their rights? WHat of the many burned to death at the Pentagon? How about all those that perished in a field in Pennsylvania? Who's the vanguard of their rights? We have acres of land in the immediate vicinity of New York more suitable for
mosque worship than shadowing Ground Zero...
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post #36 of 447
5/29/10 at 10:04am
Thread Starter 
England's finest intellectuals take to the streets to share their wisdom. The one's who can afford to that is

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/ma...-investigation

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #37 of 447
5/29/10 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Extremist elements are trying to spread their hate-filed ideology under the guise of Islam, but they do not represent Islam as a whole.

I totally respect your views on this.

Unfortunately, as evidenced by other hatred shown in this thread, Islamic extremism is not the extremism I see in the States. Extremist Christians outnumber extremist Muslims in the States 10000 to one. And "Active" -- terrorist, if you were to be honest -- extremist Christians probably outnumber active extremist Muslims in the States as well. You can bet there will be an attack on this site once ground is broken. Will the MSM call that terrorism? I doubt it.

Call terrorism and hate what it is. Many extremist Christians in the States -- and that includes many Mormons -- hate Muslims more than extremist Muslims hate Christians. And it's generally accepted by American society.
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post #38 of 447
5/29/10 at 8:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

I support the idea of religious freedom but a mosque anywhere near Ground Zero will simply foster unrest despite any peaceful intent so why build it? What is the background reasoning here? Are there not thousands of other locations? Why two blocks from the very symbol of fanatical Muslim hatred?

So that we can show that we can share our society dispite the hatred of the few. To show that we are past judging an entire people on the actions of a few. To show that we're looking toward progress, not barriers, toward peaceful coexistence. Is that not enough? Would you prefer to simply perpetuate the hatred?
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post #39 of 447
5/30/10 at 2:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So that we can show that we can share our society dispite the hatred of the few. To show that we are past judging an entire people on the actions of a few. To show that we're looking toward progress, not barriers, toward peaceful coexistence. Is that not enough? Would you prefer to simply perpetuate the hatred?

Would the World of Islam be so accommodating? Would fanatical Muslims put away their hatred of the west? What is their level of peaceful existence? What I am advancing is simply this; take their honored sites, Mecca and Medina, and try to advance the construction of western religious facilities therein. See how much "peaceful coexistence" you find.
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post #40 of 447
5/30/10 at 5:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Would the World of Islam be so accommodating? Would fanatical Muslims put away their hatred of the west?

Absolutely. As a foreigner, you can go to bars and drink alcohol in Dubai. You can wear a bikini in Sharm el Sheikh. You can build a Christian church anywhere you want in Tehran.
Quote:
What is their level of peaceful existence? What I am advancing is simply this; take their honored sites, Mecca and Medina, and try to advance the construction of western religious facilities therein. See how much "peaceful coexistence" you find.

Well... since Wall Street is pretty much the "Mecca" of your tea-bagger ilk, I guess the comparison is fitting.
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