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Mosque planned for ground zero. - Page 10

Poll Results: Are you in favor of a new mosque near ground zero?

 
  • 54% (20)
    Yes.
  • 45% (17)
    No.
37 Total Votes  
post #361 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Or perception and a frightening degree of almost quasi-psychic ability.

The question is not whether the progressives label people in this way but rather whether they are right.... sad to say they have a pretty near 100% record so far....

Take two doses of reality and call me in the morning.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #362 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

If they treat EVERY new person like this I'm surprised people are still signing up.

We could do with some new sign-ups it's true....preferably some non-Islamophobe right-wing fanatics.

Unfortunately whatever new blood there is doesn't bring anything new to the table.

Maybe people are just sheepish clones...or maybe they are the same posters under false names. Don't matter much...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #363 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Or perception and a frightening degree of almost quasi-psychic ability.

The question is not whether the progressives label people in this way but rather whether they are right.... sad to say they have a pretty near 100% record so far....

NEARLY, as in they're wrong about me.

Back on-topic, I still think they shouldn't do that. Because as you guys said not all Muslims are terrorists but what about the people building this mosque? Are they terrorists or innocent Muslims?
post #364 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Take two doses of reality and call me in the morning.

I'm already on my third dose...

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #365 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Or perception and a frightening degree of almost quasi-psychic ability.

The question is not whether the progressives label people in this way but rather whether they are right.... sad to say they have a pretty near 100% record so far....

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

NEARLY, as in they're wrong about me.
Back on-topic, I still think they shouldn't do that. Because as you guys said not all Muslims are terrorists but what about the people building this mosque? Are they terrorists or innocent Muslims?

Well maybe some here have been quick to assume that you were someone else whom you claim not to be, but sometimes it's just too hard to tell.



http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

[B]ut what about the people building this mosque? Are they terrorists or innocent Muslims?

Been asked and answeredsuggest that you do some research or read back on this thread. Also given your previous post cited below, you are either extremely intellectually challenged or bigoted or both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

I think that this would be a big slap in the face to the families of those who died on 9/11. Suppose, for example, that one of your loved ones was killed in 9/11. Would you want a Muslim mosque so close to where they died? I would presume NOT. And I also wonder why they have to build it so close to Ground Zero. Why not in the countryside or the like?

Read the thread we had a discussion about the right under the 1st Amendment. Also support from other religious groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

Eighty or so Muslims? I did not know that there were that much hijackers.

Really dumb BIGOTED response to post that there were some 80 innocent Muslims who also died on 9/11. Some previous discussions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why does no-one ever mention the Muslims killed on 9/11 ? I think the numbers are unknown but there were certainly hundreds.

If these Muslims were victims just like everyone else, and if they were not the kind of people who would fly planes into buildings then surely they are the same as anyone else? And surely that means there is no problem with the cultural centre UNLESS the organizers are the sort of people who fly planes into buildings themselves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post


One of the Heros of 9/11
Quote:
Quote:
Imagine being the family of Salman Hamdani. The 23-year-old New York City police cadet was a part-time ambulance driver, incoming medical student, and devout Muslim. When he disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials came to his family, seeking him for questioning in relation to the terrorist attacks. They allegedly believed he was somehow involved. His whereabouts were undetermined for over six months, until his remains were finally identified. He was found near the North Tower, with his EMT medical bag beside him, presumably doing everything he could to help those in need. His family could finally rest, knowing that he died the hero they always knew him to b.

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

It turns out that there used to be a prayer room in the South Tower of the WTC, on the 17th floor, used by Muslims on a regular basis. According to the article in the New York Times, some 60+ Muslims were killed in the attacks, people who were obviously not subscribers to the Odigo instant messaging service which received a tip off two hours before the attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

I am not racist. Try opening a Christain church in Mecca or one of the other Muslim holy cities. See what happens. And you still have not answered me why they can't open a Mosque somewhere else.

Yeah maybe not a racist since Muslims can be from different races, you're just bigoted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

I am not this 'Camp David' person I am someone different. I have profiles on a lot of websites and all of them on this name. I have not registered here before and I am not a troll. And what is wrong with posting my own opinion? I seriously did not know that there were innocent Muslims who died on 9/11. And why because I am new do you AUTOMATICALLY assume I'm a troll?



It's not because you're new that the assumption was made.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #366 of 447
By Henry Goldman - Sep 24, 2010 3:30 AM PT

Quote:
Four out of five voters in New York state agree Muslims have the right to build a mosque near the site of the Sept. 11 terrorist attack in Manhattan, yet 67 percent say they should voluntarily move it elsewhere, according to a Quinnipiac University poll.

Attitudes toward the proposed Islamic center two blocks from Ground Zero split along party lines. Democrats said it would be appropriate, 50 percent to 34 percent; Republicans rejected it, 90 percent to 8 percent, and independents opposed it 63 percent to 30 percent.

Quote:
The proportion of voters who said the U.S. Constitution guarantees the Islamic groups right to build near the World Trade Center site rose to 80 percent in the survey released today, from 54 percent in an Aug. 31 poll.

Regardless of religious freedom, voters in the current survey preferred that the Islamic sponsors voluntarily relocate, 67 percent to 21 percent. Last month, voters said they wanted the Muslims to change their plans by 71 percent to 21 percent.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...poll-says.html

The Quinnipiac University Survey

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1318.xml?ReleaseID=1506
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #367 of 447
By ALEX ISENSTADT | 9/22/10 1:32 PM EDT

Quote:
North Carolina Republican Renee Ellmers is trying to jump-start her lagging congressional campaign with a fiery new ad slamming the proposed Islamic community center blocks from ground zero.

The mosque debate has largely faded as a campaign issue since it burst onto the midterm landscape a little more than a month ago, but the spot marks a clear effort on Ellmerss part to stoke the flames of an emotional issue and to bring attention to a campaign that has sputtered as of late. Ellmers won a brief wave of attention in June after YouTube video of Etheridges physical altercation with a questioner who stopped him on the sidewalk went viral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R4yT...layer_embedded

Posted by Brian Montopoli
Quote:
Renee Ellmers, who is trying to unseat Democratic Rep. Bob Etheridge in North Carolina, is out with an ad in which "the Muslims" and "the terrorists" seem to be used more or less interchangeably.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...07-503544.html

Why more hate and hate mongering?
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #368 of 447
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

By ALEX ISENSTADT | 9/22/10 1:32 PM EDT



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R4yT...layer_embedded

Posted by Brian Montopoli
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...07-503544.html

Why more hate and hate mongering?

I bet she would happily carry a sign saying "Go Back To Africa Obama, I Want My Country Back".
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #369 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I bet she would happily carry a sign saying "Go Back To Africa Obama, I Want My Country Back".

I'm worried about the US right now...the mob is braying and advancing on the village with torches and pitchforks.

I think we all know how the movie ends......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #370 of 447
Someone mention polls?

Most New Yorkers still opposed to proposed 'Ground Zero' mosque: Poll
http://news.oneindia.in/2010/09/25/m...d-zeromos.html
New York, Sept 25 (ANI): About 57 percent of New Yorkers still believe that it is wrong to build the proposed Islamic community center and mosque two blocks away from the former World Trade Center site, while only 32 percent feel it's acceptable, according to a Quinnipiac University poll.

And of course the loony Imam pushing the Ground Zero Mosque picks a convenient political target:

Ground Zero mosque Imam blames Sarah Palin for 'growing Islamophobia'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...amophobia.html
The Muslim cleric behind plans to build a mosque close to the Ground Zero site has blamed politicians such as Sarah Palin for fuelling a "growing Islamophobia" that led to the burning of Korans on the ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks.
post #371 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

And of course the loony Imam pushing the Ground Zero Mosque picks a convenient political target:

Ground Zero mosque Imam blames Sarah Palin for 'growing Islamophobia'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...amophobia.html
The Muslim cleric behind plans to build a mosque close to the Ground Zero site has blamed politicians such as Sarah Palin for fuelling a "growing Islamophobia" that led to the burning of Korans on the ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Stupid to blame her for Islamophobia - she is one of the racist/fascists on the extreme-right which is why the other fascists love her - she is tapping into their existing hatred.

She does not cause Camp David's sickness for example. They are both just sufferers from the same disease.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #372 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Someone mention polls?

Most New Yorkers still opposed to proposed 'Ground Zero' mosque: Poll
http://news.oneindia.in/2010/09/25/m...d-zeromos.html
New York, Sept 25 (ANI): About 57 percent of New Yorkers still believe that it is wrong to build the proposed Islamic community center and mosque two blocks away from the former World Trade Center site, while only 32 percent feel it's acceptable, according to a Quinnipiac University poll.

If you've been reading this thread---I posted this poll http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...00#post1721700 and if you read what I posted you'd find:

Quote:
The proportion of voters who said the U.S. Constitution guarantees the Islamic groups right to build near the World Trade Center site rose to 80 percent in the survey released today, from 54 percent in an Aug. 31 poll.

Regardless of religious freedom, voters in the current survey preferred that the Islamic sponsors voluntarily relocate, 67 percent to 21 percent. Last month, voters said they wanted the Muslims to change their plans by 71 percent to 21 percent.

Support for the right to build went up significantly over the period between the two surveys from 54% to 80%. As to whether the Park 51 complex should be built, there seems to be a drop in opposition, but with people like Palin, Ellmers, Jones and Newt stirring up hatred, it may take a long time for this to change.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

And of course the loony Imam pushing the Ground Zero Mosque picks a convenient political target:

Ground Zero mosque Imam blames Sarah Palin for 'growing Islamophobia'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...amophobia.html
The Muslim cleric behind plans to build a mosque close to the Ground Zero site has blamed politicians such as Sarah Palin for fuelling a "growing Islamophobia" that led to the burning of Korans on the ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Yeah, there's no reason to blame Palin.


Sarah Palin's not-quite-a-word "refudiate" took Merriam-Webster's top searched "Word of the Summer."

Quote:
The political dispute over the mosque went national last Sunday, when Sarah Palin, the former Alaska governor and 2008 Republican vice presidential candidate, announced her opposition to it via Twitter.

Quote:
"Ground Zero Mosque supporters: doesn't it stab you in the heart, as it does ours throughout the heartland? Peaceful Muslims, pls refudiate,"

Palin wrote, drawing ridicule for using the apparently invented word refudiate.

She rewrote her post later, calling on
Quote:
"peace-seeking Muslims" to reject the mosque in the interest of national healing. "UNNECESSARY provocation,"

she wrote of the mosque.

Palin's comments drew a stern rebuke from Bloomberg, who has called efforts to derail the mosque un-American.

Quote:
"Sarah Palin has a right to her opinions, but I could not disagree more," Bloomberg said. "Everything the United States stands for, New York stands for, is tolerance and openness."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/7118920.html
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #373 of 447
As an example of the sort of 'opposition' that some here are defending - calling a moderate Imam who works for peace 'loony' for example (btw, can you imagine how hard a task this guy must have? To fight extremism in his own religion and then after all that effort to be labelled ALONGSIDE them as insane? I have utmost respect for such people working for peace against hate on all sides...I could not do it) - here is a chilling video of a black man (not Muslim) who just happened to be at a demonstration against the CULTURAL CENTRE as a rabid crowd whipped themselves up into a frenzy and the mob spiralled out of control.

Angry Crowd Lash Out at Black Man Because They Think He Is Muslim

I am very much afraid that there will be more and more of this hate and bias. It seems the haters are now beyond all reason and just want blood.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #374 of 447
Scott Alexander:

Quote:
[I]n the controversy over the Park51 Project in lower Manhattan, the argument regarding the sensitivities of some of the families of 9/11 victims and first-responders, as well as other intensely hurt and angry U.S. Americans is dangerously misleading. However deep and real their grief, the narrative of those who express being outraged and deeply offended by the proposed Muslim community center is, I am sorry to say, deeply flawed. It has no moral validity unless one can prove that hardworking, deeply patriotic, and peace-loving U.S. American Muslims like Imam Faisal Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khanleaders of the Park51 projectare no different than those who attacked the country they love on 9/11. Those who know them have testified that they embody the noblest aspirations of the vast majority of the U.S. and global Muslim community as they courageously and effectively struggle to stand up to a small but dangerous minority of extremists who would pervert their faith into a medium for hate.

The narrative of the outraged has no moral validity unless one buys into the wildly paranoid and pathologically cynical fantasy that the broad swath of savvy, experienced, and upright interfaith and other community leaders in New York and across the country who actually know and interact daily with their Muslim fellow Americans are all unsuspecting dupes in an effort to advance the agenda of international terrorists. I speak of people like New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Rabbi Burton Visotzky of the Jewish Theological Seminary, the members of Community Board 1 who overwhelmingly approved the project, Joan Brown Campbell of the Chautauqua Institution and former Secretary General of the National Council of Churches, and many others from around the country.

In addition to muddying the waters of our civic discourse and making it appear to the rest of the Muslim world that U.S. Americans actually do despise Islam, the moral fallacy of the Park 51 controversy has had another sad consequence. It has silenced the voices of all those who have lost loved ones in the 9/11 attacks whose narrative departs from the narrative of fear and suspicion. What about the feelings and convictions of those mourners who believe that the building of Park51 will be a fitting tribute to their beloved deada monument to mutual understanding and U.S. American pluralist values which speaks a resounding no to the violent, absolutist fanaticism of those who murdered their family members and friends?

I am thinking about people like Donna Marsh OConnor who lost her pregnant daughter Vanessa on 9/11 and who is a member of September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows. In her support for the Park51 project, Ms. OConnor has said publicly that
Quote:
the pain of individual people cannot, should not supersede our collective values and principlesthe very things we argue our families died for. And if we embody the principles of what America is, then we will survive this, we will thrive, and we will be victors over the criminals who attacked our families on 9/11.

Are voices such as those of Ms. OConnor and other like-minded 9/11 family members to be heard and weighed in the public discourse? Should not the narratives of these victims be juxtaposed to those that are dominating our collective consciousness, so that we can determine which seem to be more rooted in rationality, truth, and civic virtue? Or are we content to allow the media preoccupation with the darker side of human nature to inform our thinking? This issue is far too critical to the maintenance of a healthy civil society here at home for us to do the latter. It is also far too vital to our national security which is inexorably linked to the hope that Muslims around the world see us as credible partners in a struggle against global terror, rather than as a society at war with Islam.

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/201...1-controversy/

Another fallacy that there were no Muslim Heros at Ground Zero:

MOHAMMED SALMAN HAMDANI
World Trade Center

AN ALL-AMERICAN JEDI

Quote:
More than anything else, Mohammad Salman Hamdani wanted people to see him for who he truly was, not for who he seemed to be.

He was an American citizen, and he hated it when his two younger brothers teased him by saying, "Why don't you go back to Pakistan," where he had been born. He could not say the same to them because they were born in the United States after his family immigrated when he was 13 months old.

He wanted to be seen as an all-American kid. He wore No. 79 on the high school football team in Bayside, Queens, where he lived, and liked to be called Sal. When he graduated from Queens College in 2001 and did not get into an American medical school, he refused to apply to schools in any other country. He told his parents he intended to be an American doctor.

He became a research assistant at Rockefeller University and drove an ambulance part time. One Christmas he sang in Handel's "Messiah" in Queens. He saw all the "Star Wars" movies, and it was well known that his new Honda was the one with "Yung Jedi" license plates.

And yet, some people continued to see him as something he was not. After Mr. Hamdani, 23, disappeared on Sept. 11, ugly rumors circulated: he was a Muslim and worked in a lab; he might have been connected to a terrorist group. Months later the truth came out. Mr. Hamdani's remains had been found near the north tower, and he had gone there to help people he did not know.

And then, at last, everyone could see Mr. Hamdani for what he truly was.

Profile published in THE NEW YORK TIMES on March 8, 2003.

http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/...-11-Attack.htm
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #375 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Yeah, there's no reason to blame Palin...

Pay close attention before you post; point I was making was the stupidity of the Ground Zero Imam attempting to blame Gov. Palin for a problem he caused! New Yorkers are against this mosque being built - blaming others for it just won't stand.
post #376 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post


And of course the loony Imam [FT comment: no hate to name calling] pushing the Ground Zero Mosque [FT comment: not at Ground Zero--near there but not there] picks a convenient political target [FT comment: can't refudiate that]:

Ground Zero mosque Imam blames Sarah Palin for 'growing Islamophobia'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...amophobia.html
The Muslim cleric behind plans to build a mosque close to the Ground Zero site has blamed politicians such as Sarah Palin for fuelling a "growing Islamophobia" that led to the burning of Korans on the ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post


Yeah, there's no reason to blame Palin.


Sarah Palin's not-quite-a-word "refudiate" took Merriam-Webster's top searched "Word of the Summer."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/7118920.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Pay close attention before you post; point I was making was the stupidity of the Ground Zero Imam attempting to blame Gov. Palin for a problem he caused! New Yorkers are against this mosque being built - blaming others for it just won't stand.

The point that I was making is THAT THE IMAM RAUF IS RIGHT. I dare you to "refudiate" that.

From the Article you are refering:

Quote:
"What has happened is that..certain politicians decided that this project would be very useful for their political ambitions," Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf said, adding that this had prompted a "growing Islamophobia" in the US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...amophobia.html

IS HE INCORRECT in his statement? Please refer to the following--only a small sample:

Quote:
The political dispute over the mosque went national last Sunday, when Sarah Palin, the former Alaska governor and 2008 Republican vice presidential candidate, announced her opposition to it via Twitter.
Quote:
"Ground Zero Mosque supporters: doesn't it stab you in the heart, as it does ours throughout the heartland? Peaceful Muslims, pls refudiate,"

Palin wrote, drawing ridicule for using the apparently invented word refudiate.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/7118920.html

Since you didn't emntion Newt in your comments I omitted the following from the same article:

Gingrich latest among GOP to oppose NYC mosque
By BETH FOUHY
Associated Press
July 21, 2010, 11:33PM

Quote:
NEW YORK Former U.S. House speaker Newt Gingrich on Wednesday announced his opposition to a planned mosque near ground zero, becoming the latest Republican leader to place the project on the national political stage.

In a statement posted on his website, Gingrich, a potential 2012 presidential contender, said flatly, "No mosque." And he criticized Muslim leaders for suggesting the mosque's opponents are religiously intolerant.

North Carolina voters send a message against hate and DO NOT VOTE FOR ELLMERS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QvKO...layer_embedded
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #377 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

The point that I was making is THAT THE IMAM RAUF IS RIGHT. I dare you to "refudiate

The Imam's claims from the very beginning was that the Ground Zero mosque would enhance and foster Muslim/Christian relations - he was wrong! The plans for this Mosque near Ground Zero have inflamed Americans against Islam - repudiating the Iman has already been done! It is extremely doubtful that this Al Qaeda New York base of ops centre will be built...
post #378 of 447
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

The Imam's claims from the very beginning was that the Ground Zero mosque would enhance and foster Muslim/Christian relations - he was wrong! The plans for this Mosque near Ground Zero have inflamed Americans against Islam - repudiating the Iman has already been done! It is extremely doubtful that this Al Qaeda New York base of ops centre will be built...

If it is built can we expect some Tearrorism from those who are upset about it?
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #379 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

The Imam's claims from the very beginning was that the Ground Zero mosque would enhance and foster Muslim/Christian relations - he was wrong!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

The point that I was making is THAT THE IMAM RAUF IS RIGHT. I dare you to "refudiate" that.

Again I must use a famous quote from Cool Hand Luke that I used is another postmight have been on this thread even:

Quote:
Captain, Road Prison 36: What we've got here is... failure to communicate. from Cool Hand Luke (1967).....

The point that I was making was the the Imam is correct in his assertion that Palin and others are the ones stirring up the furor. This is not to say that there weren't protest before, however it escalated when Palin and Newt threw their hats into the ring. Then you add in the Pastor from Florida who wanted to burn the Qur'an.

I did not mean to imply that building the Park 51 Islamic Cultural Center was not controversial, however, I thought that we were a religiously tolerant Nation---but lately I seem to be proven wrong.

Yes the Imam wanted to have the Park 51 Project as a show case of out reach and understanding---but he wasn't the one who caste the first stone. What should happen is wait until tempers cool down and then open a dialogue, but understand that the Park 51 Project should proceed at that location. A quote from a previous post above:

Quote:
[I]n the controversy over the Park51 Project in lower Manhattan, the argument regarding the sensitivities of some of the families of 9/11 victims and first-responders, as well as other intensely hurt and angry U.S. Americans is dangerously misleading. However deep and real their grief, the narrative of those who express being outraged and deeply offended by the proposed Muslim community center is, I am sorry to say, deeply flawed. It has no moral validity unless one can prove that hardworking, deeply patriotic, and peace-loving U.S. American Muslims like Imam Faisal Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khanleaders of the Park51 projectare no different than those who attacked the country they love on 9/11. Those who know them have testified that they embody the noblest aspirations of the vast majority of the U.S. and global Muslim community as they courageously and effectively struggle to stand up to a small but dangerous minority of extremists who would pervert their faith into a medium for hate.

The narrative of the outraged has no moral validity unless one buys into the wildly paranoid and pathologically cynical fantasy that the broad swath of savvy, experienced, and upright interfaith and other community leaders in New York and across the country who actually know and interact daily with their Muslim fellow Americans are all unsuspecting dupes in an effort to advance the agenda of international terrorists. I speak of people like New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Rabbi Burton Visotzky of the Jewish Theological Seminary, the members of Community Board 1 who overwhelmingly approved the project, Joan Brown Campbell of the Chautauqua Institution and former Secretary General of the National Council of Churches, and many others from around the country.

Quote:
[T[he moral fallacy of the Park 51 controversy has had another sad consequence. It has silenced the voices of all those who have lost loved ones in the 9/11 attacks whose narrative departs from the narrative of fear and suspicion. What about the feelings and convictions of those mourners who believe that the building of Park51 will be a fitting tribute to their beloved deada monument to mutual understanding and U.S. American pluralist values which speaks a resounding no to the violent, absolutist fanaticism of those who murdered their family members and friends?

I am thinking about people like Donna Marsh OConnor who lost her pregnant daughter Vanessa on 9/11 and who is a member of September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows. In her support for the Park51 project, Ms. OConnor has said publicly that

Quote:
the pain of individual people cannot, should not supersede our collective values and principlesthe very things we argue our families died for. And if we embody the principles of what America is, then we will survive this, we will thrive, and we will be victors over the criminals who attacked our families on 9/11.

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/201...1-controversy/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

The plans for this Mosque near Ground Zero have inflamed Americans against Islam - repudiating the Iman has already been done! It is extremely doubtful that this Al Qaeda New York base of ops centre will be built...

Just for the sake of argument, You're right the Imam is wrong in hoping from the very beginning was that the Ground Zero mosque would enhance and foster Muslim/Christian relations. Is it wrong for him to have hoped? Do you deel better now that you have won an argument---think about what was won and what was lost. As a Nation we have failed. Then think about who are the ones doing this:







NO HATE HERE--JUST ENVIRONMENTALIST TRYING TO SAVE THE TENNESSEE BOOBIE
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #380 of 447
Sorry for the multiple post but AI/PO link was acting slow and couldn't tell if it posted the first time.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #381 of 447
Sorry for the multiple post but AI/PO link was acting slow and couldn't tell if it posted the first time.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #382 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

The Imam's claims from the very beginning was that the Ground Zero mosque would enhance and foster Muslim/Christian relations - he was wrong! The plans for this Mosque near Ground Zero have inflamed Americans against Islam - repudiating the Iman has already been done! It is extremely doubtful that this Al Qaeda New York base of ops centre will be built...

Last I remember, AL Qaeda planned their operations in the Middle East because they couldn't be as easily found out as in, say, NYC.
post #383 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

The point that I was making was the the Imam is correct in his assertion that Palin and others are the ones stirring up the furor.

Al Qaeda's two attacks on the Word Trade Center in New York, one on the Pentagon in Virginia, a hijacked jet crashed in Pennsylvania, an attack on the USS COLE, attacks in embassies in Africa, as well as several other attacks worldwide, and the Iman is insisting that Palin and others are stirring up the furor? Is the Imam out of his mind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

I did not mean to imply that building the Park 51 Islamic Cultural Center was not controversial, however, I thought that we were a religiously tolerant Nation---but lately I seem to be proven wrong.

There are 100 other mosques in New York... our tolerance has reached its apex when Islam attempts to enshrine the jihad terrorists with a Ground Zero mosque... However, insofar as tolerance, we are still awaiting Saudi Arabia to allow Christianity and Judaism to be uttered aloud. any chance that happening anytime soon?
post #384 of 447
(yeah, this against what I said earlier, but arguments CAN win people over.)

Your point? There were INNOCENT Muslims who died on 9/11. Saudi Arabia is it's own country, they don't have to do anything for US, unless you want to move there (why do that? its in the middle of the desert?) And you seem to not read every post, just the ones you can respond to.
post #385 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

Last I remember, AL Qaeda planned their operations in the Middle East because they couldn't be as easily found out as in, say, NYC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Cd aka camp david.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

cdgodin

cd god in?

Camp David God in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Camp David has been rattled up with Muslim's probably from a very early age. Seeing the majority of votes here tally up against his views, he did what any self respecting right wing Christian would do, cheat. So he created a fake name he could quickly access for polls and made it so simple he wouldn't forget it, hence "cd" (camp david) and something easy to remember "god in". But once he voted it must have been irresistable to him to act like another poster who could spin the same baseless hatred as he. Having surcome to this temptation he inadvertantly blew his...um...cover.

Further strengthening the connection is "god in" which has conotations which align with "camp".

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Seems a little sad....I feel a bit sorry for him now.

Compassion is a terrible thing.

And you had to ask why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

I am not this 'Camp David' person I am someone different. I have profiles on a lot of websites and all of them on this name. I have not registered here before and I am not a troll. And what is wrong with posting my own opinion? I seriously did not know that there were innocent Muslims who died on 9/11. And why because I am new do you AUTOMATICALLY assume I'm a troll?


opps wrong pix

無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #386 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgodin View Post

(yeah, this against what I said earlier, but arguments CAN win people over.)

Your point? There were INNOCENT Muslims who died on 9/11. Saudi Arabia is it's own country, they don't have to do anything for US, unless you want to move there (why do that? its in the middle of the desert?) And you seem to not read every post, just the ones you can respond to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Take two doses of reality and call me in the morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I'm already on my third dose...


Sorry Sego, cdgodin needs it more.

Yet another one for my T list.

無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #387 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Al Qaeda's two attacks on the Word Trade Center in New York, one on the Pentagon in Virginia, a hijacked jet crashed in Pennsylvania, an attack on the USS COLE, attacks in embassies in Africa, as well as several other attacks worldwide, and the Iman is insisting that Palin and others are stirring up the furor? Is the Imam out of his mind?

Some Christians you got to love:











Some Bad Christians = All Christians Are Bad

Then: No Churches near Ground Zero---or near schools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

There are 100 other mosques in New York... our tolerance has reached its apex when Islam attempts to enshrine the jihad terrorists with a Ground Zero mosque...[FT comment: really CD-I thought that this was above you--but apparently not--This is a crock of SH!T] However, insofar as tolerance, we are still awaiting Saudi Arabia to allow Christianity and Judaism to be uttered aloud. any chance that happening anytime soon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

However, insofar as tolerance, we are still awaiting Saudi Arabia to allow Christianity and Judaism to be uttered aloud. any chance that happening anytime soon?

Probably not. Your point being?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

There are 100 other mosques in New York

Quote:
Christians comprise about 70% of the population; 40% of whom are Catholic and 30% Protestant. They attend approximately 2000 churches and 4000 informal places of worship such as community halls and homes, thus a total of some 6000 churches. New York City also boasts the worlds largest cathedral, the Episcopal Church of St John the Divine.

12% of New Yorker claim Jewish decent. There are more Jews in New York City than there are in the Jerusalem city limits. They have more than 1000 synagogues 70% permanent and 30% temporary places at their service.

There are almost a million Muslims in New York City. (Some sources claim 1.4 million; the New York City Community Affairs Bureau states the figure as 800 000.) There are more than 100 mosques in the city, plus an unknown number of small mosques that worshipers set up in their apartments or places that are not visible from the street.

http://didyouknow.org/number-of-chur...new-york-city/

http://www.churchangel.com/nycity.htm

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=s...ed=0CCkQtgMwAw

So there are 100 Mosque in NYC---So What
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #388 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If it is built can we expect some Tearrorism from those who are upset about it?

It's legal to build a mosque anywhere you please, and it's also legal for a woman to walk around half nude in NY. So I think they ought to build the damn thing, while a few dozen topless women protest at its front entrance every nice warm day.

Tearrorism? Was that a slip?
A is A
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A is A
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post #389 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Some Christians you got to love

This my friends is an excellent example - no strike that - this is a classic example of what is called "PUNT THE BLAME" in discussion rhetoric... note the diversion and underhanded allegory to alleged Christian terrorists - EVEN THOUGH THE WORLD TERRORISM TODAY IS LARGELY FROM FANATICAL MUSLIM JIHADIS! Note also the allusion to decades old alleged Christian terrorists - EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE SUICIDE BOMBERS EVEN TODAY FROM ISLAM...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

So there are 100 Mosque in NYC---So What

It exemplifies the "freedom of religion" so characteristic in the United States and largely missing in the world of Islam... it also shows how New Yorkers embrace diverse religions and their institutions, with the noted exception of next door to Ground Zero monument!
post #390 of 447
Terrorist attacks in London:

Islamist Attacks:

7 July 2005 London bombings
21 July 2005 attempted bombings
29 June 2007 attempted car bombings

Christian Attacks:

4 March 2001 BBC bombing:Real IRA detonated a car bomb outside the BBC's main news centre
6 May 2001: IRA bomb exploded at a Royal Mail sorting office in Colindale,
3 August 2001 Ealing bombing: The Real IRA exploded acar bomb in Ealing Broadway
September 2000, The Real IRA fire rocket launcher at the MI6 building in central London
16 May 1990: IRA detonate a bomb underneath a minibus killing Sgt Charles Chapman
20 July 1990: IRA exploded a large bomb at the London Stock Exchange
18 February 1991: Paddington Station, damaging the building's roof but causing no casualties. 18 February 1991 bomb explodes at Victoria Station. One man is killed and 38 people injured.
10 January 1992: Small device exploded. No injuries, Whitehall Place, London SW1.
28 February 1992: A bomb explodes at London Bridge station injuring 29 people.
10 April 1992: A large bomb explodes outside 30 St Mary Axe in the City of London.
12 October 1992: Sussex Arms public house in Covent Garden, killing one person
16 November 1992: Canary Wharf in the Docklands.
27 February 1993: a bomb outside a McDonalds restaurant in Camden Town
24 April 1993 Bishopsgate bombing: huge truck bomb in the City of London at Bishopsgate,
9 February 1996 Docklands bombing, killing two people.
15 February 1996: A 5-pound (on the Charing Cross Road.
18 February 1996: An improvised high explosive device on a bus travelling along Aldwych in central London, killing Edward O'Brien, the IRA operative transporting the device and injuring eight others.[19]

That's just the last two decades.

However these figures could rise as the Real IRA - a Catholic Terrorist Organization - vows to maintain a reign of terror on the UK mainland:

Quote:
"We have already shown our capacity to launch attacks on the British military, judicial, and policing infrastructure. As we rebuild, we are confident that we will increase the volume and effectiveness of attacks," the organisation said.

They are also attacking and murdering individuals in 'vigilante justice' on the Irish mainland:

Quote:
One element in the Real IRA's recent activity has been a wave of so-called "punishment" shootings and beatings of those they deem "antisocial elements" in nationalist working class areas. In Derry alone the Real IRA and other aligned groups have shot around two dozen men over the last 18 months.

BBC

In terms of the US rather than London the following chart is from the FBI Website and shows terror attacks since 2005:



As you can see, Jewish terror groups have committed more terrorist acts than Islamic (not attackers who were Jews but rather actual groups like the Jewish Defence League) but the real surprise is the CHRISTIAN terror attacks.

Many are race attacks by the KKK and associated Christian hate-groups but the number of bomb attacks on abortion clinics by non-racialist Christian groupings appears to be sky-rocketing.

In fact the FBI figures show that 96.4% of the terror attacks worldwide up until 2005 were not Islamic related - the overall majority could be loosely labelled 'Christian'.


As of this month the 2010 figures in Europe show an increase in non-Islamic terror and now the number of non-Islamic terror attacks stands at 99.6%.

Europol Report



Note: many of these 'seperatists' that make up the 84.8% of terror attacks are Christian. The IRA would come into that category as would Basque separatist groups as well as Corsican.

Of course we may also expect to see a rise in race-hate groups as the anti-Muslim hate speech increases. As yet the BNP and the EDL (neo-Nazi groups in the UK) have not mounted an all-out terror attack (though they have been preparing for several and the authorities have confiscated numerous bombs and even ricin from racist groupings) though these groups - which also claim they are Christian - will no doubt soon take violent action.

An interesting list of some of the more violent Christian terror groups is compiled on Wikipedia.

Northern Ireland we have covered but the following are instructional:

Quote:
Canada
The Sons of Freedom, a sect of Doukhobor anarchists, have protested nude, blown up power pylons, railroad bridges, and set fire to homes, often targeting their own property.

India
The National Liberation Front of Tripura, a rebel group operating in Tripura, North-East India classified by the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism as one of the ten most active terrorist groups in the world, has been accused of forcefully converting people to Christianity.

The insurgency in Nagaland was led by the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN) and continues today with its faction NSCN - Isaac Muivah which explicitly calls for a "Nagalim for Christ."

Romania
Anti-Semitic Romanian Orthodox fascist movements in Romania, such as the Iron Guard and Lăncieri, were responsible for involvement in the Holocaust, Bucharest pogrom, and political murders during the 1930s.

Russia
A number of Russian political and paramilitary groups combine racism, nationalism, and Russian Orthodox beliefs.
Russian National Unity, a far right ultra-nationalist political party and paramilitary organization, advocates an increased role for the Russian Orthodox Church according to its manifesto. It has been accused of murders, and several terrorist attacks including the bombing of the US Consulate in Ekaterinburg.

Uganda
The Lord's Resistance Army, a cult guerrilla army engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government, has been accused of using child soldiers and committing numerous crimes against humanity; including massacres, abductions, mutilation, torture, rape, porters and sex slaves. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Christian Holy Spirit which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations. LRA fighters wear rosary beads and recite passages from the Bible before battle.

We've covered the US and Christian hate groups like the KKK and clinic bombers but there are other significant cells too:

Quote:
A number of terrorist attacks, including the Centennial Olympic Park bombing during the 1996 Summer Olympics by Eric Robert Rudolph, were accused of being carried out by individuals and groups with ties to the Christian Identity and Christian Patriot movements; including the Lambs of Christ.

A group called Concerned Christians were deported from Israel on suspicion of planning to attack holy sites in Jerusalem at the end of 1999, believing that their deaths would "lead them to heaven."

The motive for anti-abortionist Scott Roeder murdering Wichita doctor George Tiller on May 31, 2009 was religious.

Hutaree was a Christian militia group based in Adrian, Michigan. In 2010, after an FBI agent infiltrated the group, nine of its members were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy to use of improvised explosive devices, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence.

Christian Identity is a loosely affiliated global group of churches and individuals devoted to a racialized theology that asserts North European whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, God's chosen people. It has been associated with groups such as the Aryan Nations, Aryan Republican Army, Army of God, Phineas Priesthood, and The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord. It has been cited as an influence in a number of terrorist attacks around the world, including the 2002 Soweto bombings.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #391 of 447
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

It's legal to build a mosque anywhere you please, and it's also legal for a woman to walk around half nude in NY. So I think they ought to build the damn thing, while a few dozen topless women protest at its front entrance every nice warm day.

Tearrorism? Was that a slip?

I think I would be the first to convert, or do I mean "pervert", probably the latter.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #392 of 447
Let the people in NYC decide where it should be built. It is their city. No outsiders involved including Obama.
post #393 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

Let the people in NYC decide where it should be built. It is their city. No outsiders involved including Obama.

How about we go a step further?

Let the people who own the property decide what to do with it. It is their property. No outsiders involved.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #394 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

Let the people in NYC decide where it should be built. It is their city. No outsiders involved including Obama.

How about let the owners of the land decide where it should be built? No outsiders involved including racists.

Edit: Damn... MJ beat me to it.
post #395 of 447
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

How about we go a step further?

Let the people who own the property decide what to do with it. It is their property. No outsiders involved.

Yes, let's let the American Indian's decide.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #396 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes, let's let the American Indian's decide.

American Indians believe nobody owns the land.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #397 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes, let's let the American Indian's decide.

Sure, we could do that. If we want to truly honor property right, as much as is practical, we ought to find original owners and return property to rightful owners. Are you on board for a strong property rights doctrine? Do you really want to respect property rights?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #398 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Sure, we could do that. If we want to truly honor property right, as much as is practical, we ought to find original owners and return property to rightful owners. Are you on board for a strong property rights doctrine? Do you really want to respect property rights?

MJ => There is a Mr. Jefferson Davis calling on the house courtesy phone; he has a related question on property rights and the rightful owners of the land south of the Mason/Dixon line....


post #399 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

MJ => There is a Mr. Jefferson Davis calling on the house courtesy phone; he has a related question on property rights and the rightful owners of the land south of the Mason/Dixon line....



Not sure what you're getting at. Are you alluding to the concept of "property" of slaves? If so I believe that issue has been determined and settled as a contradiction. In other words there's no such thing as a having an ownership right in a another person.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #400 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

If so I believe that issue has been determined and settled as a contradiction. In other words there's no such thing as a having an ownership right in a another person.

Not at all; I am speaking about property as in land, specifically states rights. While I am, as a conservative, sympathetic and supportive of your earlier point; i.e.,

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Let the people who own the property decide what to do with it. It is their property. No outsiders involved.

in the case of the Ground Zero mosque, and other notable transgressive examples I alluded to, your position would open up lots of unforeseen circumstances. Not that I am against it, per se, in the Ground Zero example, but we could augment your position with a few zoning ordinances; five block area around national monuments restricted. This is actually conservative insofar as zoning is concerned, and would prevent the mosque while respecting other urban property rights matters. Matter of fact rural areas impose more restrictive zoning of a mile as a buffer zone around national monuments (urban areas have a five block quadrant restrictive zone while outside of that open for full property rights). That seems a workable plan.
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