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Mosque planned for ground zero. - Page 2

Poll Results: Are you in favor of a new mosque near ground zero?

 
  • 54% (20)
    Yes.
  • 45% (17)
    No.
37 Total Votes  
post #41 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Extremist Christians outnumber extremist Muslims in the States 10000 to one. And "Active" -- terrorist, if you were to be honest -- extremist Christians probably outnumber active extremist Muslims in the States as well.

I won't hold my breath waiting for it, but I'd love for you to present evidence in support of these claims your making. Or is just your feeling about the relative numbers?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #42 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I won't hold my breath waiting for it, but I'd love for you to present evidence in support of these claims your making. Or is just your feeling about the relative numbers?

How many extremist Muslims in the US have you heard saying that Christians shouldn't be able to build a church? That's extremist.

How many extremist Muslims in the US have blown up abortion clinics? Burned crosses in racial hatred?

And try this...

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktl...0,194500.story
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/11/...zed/index.html
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...ad.php?t=28206 (OK... that one's Canada)
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/23578143/detail.html

And these...

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/05/mus...-a-hate-crime/
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-12889
http://rightoftexas.blogspot.com/200...st-baylor.html
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/sikh-...attacked-texas

Now the ball's in your court. I'd love for you to show similar events in America perpetrated by American Muslims. Go ahead.
post #43 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How many extremist Muslims in the US have you heard saying that Christians shouldn't be able to build a church?

Well, first I don't know if I've heard of any Christians saying that Muslims shouldn't build a mosque, but whatever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

How many extremist Muslims in the US have blown up abortion clinics? Burned crosses in racial hatred?

And how many extremist Christians have hijacked planes and flown them into buildings?



Those are some fine anecdotal examples. However...


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Now the ball's in your court. I'd love for you to show similar events in America perpetrated by American Muslims. Go ahead.

No, I think it's still in your court. Here's your statement in case you've forgotten:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Extremist Christians outnumber extremist Muslims in the States 10000 to one. And "Active" -- terrorist, if you were to be honest -- extremist Christians probably outnumber active extremist Muslims in the States as well.

The first is a specific claim. The second is also a specific claim albeit qualified with the word "probably." I don't believe that your links have yet supported these claims.

Of course you'll need to define "extremist" in some objective way in order to get to a place where you can count them all.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #44 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well, first I don't know if I've heard of any Christians saying that Muslims shouldn't build a mosque, but whatever.

OMG!? Isn't that exactly what you and Gay Davi... um... "Camp" David are saying in this thread? OK... let me qualify it... How many Muslims in the US have you heard saying that Christians shouldn't be able to build a church anywhere it's legal to do so?
Quote:
And how many extremist Christians have hijacked planes and flown them into buildings?

How many American Muslims did that? You did read what I posted, right?
Quote:
Those are some fine anecdotal examples. However...
No, I think it's still in your court. Here's your statement in case you've forgotten:

The first is a specific claim. The second is also a specific claim albeit qualified with the word "probably." I don't believe that your links have yet supported these claims.

I showed you seven examples of terrorist action, presumably from American Christians, all directed toward Muslims. I bet you couldn't find more than one example of the other. The incompetent Times Square stooge. Seven is more than one. That takes care of the second. As for the first all you have to do is go on the internet and read threads like this to know the truth.
Quote:
Of course you'll need to define "extremist" in some objective way in order to get to a place where you can count them all.

"Extremist" is anyone who is not interested in working toward a peaceful coexistence.
post #45 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

"Extremist" is anyone who is not interested in working toward a peaceful coexistence.

Do you want to peacefully coexist with Christians and Muslims?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #46 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

OMG!? Isn't that exactly what you and Gay Davi... um... "Camp" David are saying in this thread?

I cannot speak for Camp David, but I'm fairly certain I have never said that. But, please, point me to the post where I have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

OK... let me qualify it... How many Muslims in the US have you heard saying that Christians shouldn't be able to build a church anywhere it's legal to do so?
How many American Muslims did that? You did read what I posted, right?

I have not heard any. However, I'm not around many Muslims where the subject has come up, so this might be a poor sample set. So what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I showed you seven examples of terrorist action, presumably from American Christians, all directed toward Muslims.

Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I bet you couldn't find more than one example of the other. The incompetent Times Square stooge. Seven is more than one. That takes care of the second.

In your mind, perhaps. Simply cherry picking examples that well, might, bolster one side of your argument and then claiming there are no examples on the opposite side of your argument does not prove your point at all. It simply makes it looks like you're just making shit up based on your own biased perceptions of "extremist" Christians (and their alleged actions) and "extremist" Muslims (and their alleged lack of actions.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

As for the first all you have to do is go on the internet and read threads like this to know the truth.

No sir. I am not doing the homework to try and prove the claim you have made.

Still 0 for 2.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

"Extremist" is anyone who is not interested in working toward a peaceful coexistence.

How...ummm...objective.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #47 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Do you want to peacefully coexist with Christians and Muslims?

Absolutely.
post #48 of 447
I am not an American, but I vote NO. It is hypocrisy at its extreme if you build a mosque there.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #49 of 447
Why you should build a mosque there: because it shows that the massive majority of sane rational US citizens know that 911 was just the product of a few nutters and nothing to do with Islam.

The fact that a few stray loons in the US and elsewhere have a vested interest in promoting the idea that this is what Islam actually is (see earlier ridiculous statement in thread about 'conversion by the sword' being a pillar of Islam) makes it all the more of a good idea.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #50 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Absolutely.

The majority of Christians and Muslims want to peacefully coexist, too.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #51 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why you should build a mosque there: because it shows that the massive majority of sane rational US citizens know that 911 was just the product of a few nutters and nothing to do with Islam.

The fact that a few stray loons in the US and elsewhere have a vested interest in promoting the idea that this is what Islam actually is (see earlier ridiculous statement in thread about 'conversion by the sword' being a pillar of Islam) makes it all the more of a good idea.

Exactly. Now why the hell is this concept so difficult for people to grasp?
post #52 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The majority of Christians and Muslims want to peacefully coexist, too.

Exactly. So the mosque should not bother anyone except the extremists and the prejudiced.
post #53 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Exactly. So the mosque should not bother anyone except the extremists and the prejudiced.

Indeed. We are in agreement on this issue. Let them build the mosque. Either the First Amendment applies to everyone equally or it applies to no one.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #54 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Indeed. We are in agreement on this issue. Let them build the mosque. Either the First Amendment applies to everyone equally or it applies to no one.

Agreed. I think though that is not enough to just build the mosque as some sort of principle....a mosque is just a building really and does not approximate to a church, a mosque could be anywhere (almost) and does not need consecration or anything like that.

What really matters is the Imam of this mosque. They need to make sure he is someone capable of both reclaiming Islam from any fundies and also educating those that think Islam is something it isn't.

That's from the pov of the Muslim community. Probably doesn't much matter to anyone else!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #55 of 447
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #56 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

What really matters is the Imam of this mosque. They need to make sure he is someone capable of both reclaiming Islam from any fundies and also educating those that think Islam is something it isn't.

So I guess that's in the hands of that Islamic community or "congregation" (whatever term is used) of that area, right? I assume that Islam doesn't work like the Catholic church (or some Protestant denominations) in regard to selecting or appointing someone to this position from a higher up organizational entity. Does it?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #57 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So I guess that's in the hands of that Islamic community or "congregation" (whatever term is used) of that area, right? I assume that Islam doesn't work like the Catholic church (or some Protestant denominations) in regard to selecting or appointing someone to this position from a higher up organizational entity. Does it?

No, not in Sunni. The Shi'i Imams are more institutionalized I guess but I'm pretty sure it won't be a Shi'i mosque. Hopefully it won't be Saudi funded either. Be interesting to see some background on who's funding it.

In Sunni Islam anyone can be the Imam in theory though it's usually someone respected in the community which in practice means someone like a scholar or religious student.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #58 of 447
The huge majority of the American people want to co-exist with Muslims... hell, there are between 7 and 10 million Islamic people who are US CITIZENS for Allah's sake. I would think the huge majority here would also wish to coexist peacefully with Muslims. There is only one regular poster on here ("stevegmu") who obviously doesn't, that is, from the plain evidence in his posts. It appears that he shares the same opinions as the likes of certain senior (ex) politicians such as Perle, Abrams, Chertoff, Feith, Luttwak, Zakheim, Kissinger, Libby, Adelman, Zoelleck, Grossman, Bolton, Frum, etc . etc. etc... and very well-placed media pundits such as Horowitz, Pipes, Geller, etc. etc. etc. in the minds of whom "the only good Muslim is a dead one".
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #59 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The huge majority of the American people want to co-exist with Muslims... hell, there are between 7 and 10 million Islamic people who are US CITIZENS for Allah's sake. I would think the huge majority here would also wish to coexist peacefully with Muslims. There is only one regular poster on here ("stevegmu") who obviously doesn't, that is, from the plain evidence in his posts. It appears that he shares the same opinions as the likes of certain senior (ex) politicians such as Perle, Abrams, Chertoff, Feith, Luttwak, Zakheim, Kissinger, Libby, Adelman, Zoelleck, Grossman, Bolton, Frum, etc . etc. etc... and very well-placed media pundits such as Horowitz, Pipes, Geller, etc. etc. etc. in the minds of whom "the only good Muslim is a dead one".

Surely they can be reformed. Many cult members have been successfully reprogramed.
Where do you think all these Islamic terrorists were brainwashed, recruited and turned into terrorists? The Boy Scouts? Every known homegrown jihadist in the US has had ties to radical mosques. It is an insult to allow a terror recruitment and training center in the shadow of Ground Zero.

Odd I am the only one against it, yet the poll results show otherwise. Kind of like Arizona's new law. The lefty media will have you believe everyone is against the law, yet poll after poll paints a different story.
post #60 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Surely they can be reformed.

WHo can be reformed? Muslims as a whole?

Or a certain section of Muslims? If the latter then which section? How many are there? Who are they?

Quote:
Many cult members have been successfully reprogramed.

What is the definition of a cult?

What are the prominent cults within Islam? Or do you mean to imply - as it seems you do - that Islam itself is the cult.

If so then what is the 'parent' - we know that all cults are schismatic and derive from an original parent-ideal don't we?

Quote:
Where do you think all these Islamic terrorists were brainwashed, recruited and turned into terrorists?

Don't know. Is there a special centre?

Is there just one place? Just one creed and dogma...all Islamic terrorists agree with each other? Please tell us...we need to know...

Quote:
Every known homegrown jihadist in the US has had ties to radical mosques.

Who funds the radical mosques? Where are they? What is there version of Islam?

Obviously you know that there are many versions of Islam - such as Sunni and Shi'i but also many more. Perhaps you think they are all 'the same thing' and part of some over-arching conspiracy ?

What type are the mosques in the US?

I give you a clue in case you are finding all these questions a bit taxing: more than 80% of US mosques are funded by the US most prominent Middle Eastern Ally. This ally shares a version of Islam which is essentially the same as that of 90% of Islamist groups.

Quote:
It is an insult to allow a terror recruitment and training center in the shadow of Ground Zero.

It would be or it is?

If the latter please share the info you have that someone is building a terrorist recruting centre at Ground Zero.

Quote:
Odd I am the only one against it, yet the poll results show otherwise. Kind of like Arizona's new law. The lefty media will have you believe everyone is against the law, yet poll after poll paints a different story.

There is something odd for sure but I don't think it's that.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #61 of 447
More right-wing hate at Ground Zero:

Seems wingnuts fave wet-dream Palin has weighed in - albeit in a somewhat illiterate manner - against the mosque (which is not even a mosque but a cultural centre) and other right0wingers are jostling to the front to spit their hate and bile.

One typical example is right-wing poster boy and Chairman of tea Party Express, Mark Williams who had this to say which I think is quite tame by the usual standards but gives a flavour of how these people think - or don't think:

Quote:
The animals of allah for whom any day is a great day for a massacre are drooling over the positive response that they are getting from New York City officials over a proposal to build a 13 story monument to the 9/11 Muslims who hijacked those 4 airliners.

The monument would consist of a Mosque for the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god and a "cultural center" to propagandize for the extermination of all things not approved by their cult.

Hmmm Nice....

Sounds like a certain poster on here.

Here are some more of his supporters.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #62 of 447
I have not yet formed an opinion on this planned Mosque/Islamic Center next door to the remains of the World Trade Center terrorism site but your reporting of others opinion seems to lack context. Since many in New York City oppose this you should cover their view too... Moreover:

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Palin has weighed in

Former Governor's Palin's legitimate concerns, that the mosque's location would be an "unnecessary provocation" so close to Ground Zero is in fact shared by many albeit most New York citizens. You might wish to sample their opinion as it contrasts well with New York's mayor.
post #63 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

I have not yet formed an opinion on this planned Mosque/Islamic Center next door to the remains of the World Trade Center terrorism site but your reporting of others opinion seems to lack context. Since many in New York City oppose this you should cover their view too... Moreover:

Former Governor's Palin's legitimate concerns, that the mosque's location would be an "unnecessary provocation" so close to Ground Zero is in fact shared by many albeit most New York citizens. You might wish to sample their opinion as it contrasts well with New York's mayor.

Several points:

First the objection is based not on the stated aims of the organization or nature of Islam but what racists like this character I quoted are claiming.

If they are correct then then of course, there should be no cultural centre.

Ie: no reasonable person would condone a centre by a terrorist organization at ground zero or anywhere else that espoused the teaching of a religion which preached hate.

I agree with that (without agree with the NAzi that said it of course).

The question is "is what he and other protesters said true?". If it is: no Centre. If not then why not have a Centre? Of course in this latter case we need to look at what we do with liars like that who try to stir up hate and violence but that's perhaps for another thread.

Second point: this Centre is by an organization who have the stated aim to encourage dialogue and which rejects violence and extremism.

So again, are they telling the truth? If they are why would racists oppose it..ok, no need to ask that...we know the answer.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #64 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

You might wish to sample their opinion as it contrasts well with New York's mayor.

Contrasts as in conflicts:

Quote:
. As Mayor Michael Bloomberg pointed out in defending the Cordoba House project, its opponents are undermining the liberties that define us and distinguish us from our enemies:

"I think our young men and women overseas are fighting for exactly this," he said in reaction to Palin. "For the right of people to practice their religion and for government to not pick and choose which religions they support, which religions they don't."

Scott Stringer, Manhattans brave borough president, who like Bloomberg happens to be Jewish, challenged her directly in his own tweet: "@SarahPalinUSA NYers support the #mosque in the name of tolerance and understanding. You should learn from the example we set here in #NYC."
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #65 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The majority of Christians and Muslims want to peacefully coexist, too.

I agree 100% with this.

The United States represents diversity.

Only our adversary would have us turn one against another. I for one will not go there.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #66 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

I am not an American, but I vote NO. It is hypocrisy at its extreme if you build a mosque there.

I would like to know more on this viewpoint. Would you be willing to expand with detail what you are saying here?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #67 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I would like to know more on this viewpoint. Would you be willing to expand with detail what you are saying here?

Fellows

Hi Fellows

While we're waiting for that I'd like to share why I think a Cultural Centre there is actually a very good idea and even necessary. It is not a mosque btw - that is disinfo - it is a Cultural Centre organized by an Islamic group and there happens to be a mosque there for Muslim visitors.

Btw, in the Middle East Christians often pray in mosques. The main mosque at Damascus for example houses the (alleged) tomb of John the Baptist and is a major place of Christian pilgrimage in the region.

Why I think it is a good idea: it is necessary for Islam to get back to the traditional roots which were those of tolerance and religious plurality. This organization aims to do this which is why it is called 'Cordoba' as this was the city where Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in harmony for 800 years.

What better time and place to restate these aims of tolerance and non-violence.

The reactions to the plan seem to show there is a dire need for it. No-one is trying to convert anyone or spread dissent - it is about tolerance and religious diversity.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #68 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Second point: this Centre is by an organization who have the stated aim to encourage dialogue and which rejects violence and extremism..

Recall that I said I had not yet formed an opinion here; I am sympathetic to former Governor Palin's point that the mosque's location would be an "unnecessary provocation" so close to Ground Zero is in fact shared by many albeit most New York citizens. I am also sympathetic to the idea of religious freedom. Hence the conundrum. While you may say that this Centre is by an organization who have the stated aim to encourage dialogue and which rejects violence and extremism, I have no proof of that, since several other such organizations have been allowed yet they were later found to be advancing Sharia Law principles, the foundation of terrorism.

Let me ask you, what evidence do you have that this so-named Ground Zero Mosque will not foster Sharia instruction? Who is financing this Ground Zero mosque and why does it need to be so close to one of this nation's best example of fanatical Muslim jihad?
post #69 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Let me ask you, what evidence do you have that this so-named Ground Zero Mosque will not foster Sharia instruction? Who is financing this Ground Zero mosque and why does it need to be so close to one of this nation's best example of fanatical Muslim jihad?

Because it is not a mosque.

It is a Cultural Centre run by the Cordoba Project.

There is a mosque planned in the Centre but many Centres and Institutions have mosques attached. The 'mosque' in this case is merely a room where someone can pray.

In the Islamic world teaching generally takes place in Friday mosques or Grand mosques - each city may have hundreds of mosques but in only a few is there sermons perhaps...most are there as spaces for prayer much like chapels in airports.

This is what they say their mission is:

Quote:
Cordoba Initiative aims to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, bringing back the atmosphere of interfaith tolerance and respect that we have longed for since Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in harmony and prosperity eight hundred years ago.

Solving some of the most intractable conflicts in the world today requires innovative strategies for cross-cultural engagement. Cordoba Initiative tackles this mandate with forethought, expertise and the ability to leverage contacts in influential positions within the Muslim World and the West. Thinking outside the box about international and intercultural conflict resolution also means thinking introspectively about each side's place within its own historical narrative with a view to devising internally oriented solutions.

Now that raises some issues;

1) Is it a worthy aim?

For sure some will not agree with it and oppose it. That is their right. But I would think most people would want MORE harmony and peace and LESS confrontation and violence and if this helps...

2) If we accept that this is a worthy aim then the next question is "is it true?" ie - is this really what they want or is it a front for a terror outfit?

This is a legitimate concern and one which is down to the authorities to ascertain.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the relevant US agencies have investigated this organization and would not allow its existence - let alone this plan - should it be untoward.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #70 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I would like to think that everyone would welcome a new mosque close to ground zero as a sign of hope and unity between peoples overcoming hatred and mistrust.

Here's the story from the BBC- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8691382.stm

Your thoughts?

I think it's too much of a challenge for the victims and their families. It's a bold move, but could push the wrong buttons.

It would be better if they could build some sort of "inter-faith" kind of community centre.

In my vision of a better world, most of the larger "places of worship" around the world would be "inter-faith" centres where you have a mosque, church, temple near to each other. If you visit Malaysia, you'll see examples of churches, hindu and buddhist temples and mosques all almost next to each other in some crowded neighbourhoods. They don't have any "inter-faith" community buildings, though there is some kind of "inter-faith" council (non-government organisation)... the inter-faith community centres should be the next step to foster understanding and tolerant spiritual growth.

The only issue is that, in several countries, converting out of Islam is very much prohibited. Whereas the other religions allow denouncement/ changing of your religion.

For the USA, I propose more inter-faith dialogues and meetings, rather than just building traditional places of worship in hopes of engendering tolerance.

Edit: Not saying Malaysia is perfect, just commenting on the co-location of buildings of worship.
post #71 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Because it is not a mosque.

It is a Cultural Centre run by the Cordoba Project.

There is a mosque planned in the Centre but many Centres and Institutions have mosques attached. The 'mosque' in this case is merely a room where someone can pray.

In the Islamic world teaching generally takes place in Friday mosques or Grand mosques - each city may have hundreds of mosques but in only a few is there sermons perhaps...most are there as spaces for prayer much like chapels in airports.

This is what they say their mission is:



Now that raises some issues;

1) Is it a worthy aim?

For sure some will not agree with it and oppose it. That is their right. But I would think most people would want MORE harmony and peace and LESS confrontation and violence and if this helps...

2) If we accept that this is a worthy aim then the next question is "is it true?" ie - is this really what they want or is it a front for a terror outfit?

This is a legitimate concern and one which is down to the authorities to ascertain.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the relevant US agencies have investigated this organization and would not allow its existence - let alone this plan - should it be untoward.

Hey, okay, cool I posted before seeing your post. It is OF ABSOLUTE, CRITICAL IMPORTANCE that this debate be carried out understanding it may or may not be a mosque.

A "prayer room" is very, very different from a mosque. Kind of how a mini-chapel is very different from a church.

My proposal for the Cordoba Project is such ~ have a Muslim prayer-room, a Christian mini-chapel, something similar for Judaism, and a meditative room for Buddhists, and another non-religion-specific "self-spiritual area".

Edit: More information on a "masjid" (mosque) vs a "musalla" (prayer room/ prayer hall)... http://lifeofummaslam.wordpress.com/...and-a-mussala/

Disclaimer - I'm not Muslim, more towards New Age...

Edit2: Okay, I know, the tricky part is these Muslim centres and so on, whether it can be called a Mosque or is it just a prayer hall (Musalla)? This is important in the perception of what is considered a mosque in the US...
post #72 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Hey, okay, cool I posted before seeing your post. It is OF ABSOLUTE, CRITICAL IMPORTANCE that this debate be carried out understanding it's not a mosque.

A "prayer room" is very, very different from a mosque. Kind of how a mini-chapel is very different from a church.

My proposal for the Cordoba Project is such ~ have a Muslim prayer-room, a Christian mini-chapel, something similar for Judaism, and a meditative room for Buddhists, and another non-religion-specific "self-spiritual area".

This is the page of the actual project.

Quote:
Cordoba House is a Muslim-led project which will build a world-class facility that promotes tolerance, reflecting the rich diversity of New York City. The center will be community-driven, serving as a platform for inter-community gatherings and cooperation at all levels, providing a space for all New Yorkers to enjoy.

This proposed project is about promoting integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture. Cordoba House will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their backgrounds, will find a center of learning, art and culture; and most importantly, a center guided by Islamic values in their truest form - compassion, generosity, and respect for all.

The site will contain tremendous amounts of resources that otherwise would not exist in Lower Manhattan; a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores, restaurants - all these services would form a cultural nexus for a region of New York City that, as it continues to grow, requires the sort of hub that Cordoba House will provide.

At first I thought that it might be better to be a neutral inter-faith Centre rather than 'Muslim-led' as it says there but then I thought about it and that would not address the problem.

The task is to somehow reclaim Islam from extremism - people often say this is what must be done but when Muslims try to do it there is opposition - and this is why I think it MUST be a Muslim-led project.

Otherwise those who believe and promote the idea that Islam is the same thing as extremism and terrorism would be unopposed and nothing would change.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #73 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Because it is not a mosque.

It is a Cultural Centre run by the Cordoba Project..

"The proposed Cordoba House overlooking the World Trade Center site where a group of jihadists killed over 3000 Americans and destroyed one of our most famous landmarks is a test of the timidity, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites. For example, most of them dont understand that Cordoba House is a deliberately insulting term. It refers to Cordoba, Spain the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the worlds third-largest mosque complex.

Today, some of the Mosques backers insist this term is being used to symbolize interfaith cooperation when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Cordoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest. It is a sign of their contempt for Americans and their confidence in our historic ignorance that they would deliberately insult us this way.

Those Islamists and their apologists who argue for religious toleration are arrogantly dishonest. They ignore the fact that more than 100 mosques already exist in New York City. Meanwhile, there are no churches or synagogues in all of Saudi Arabia. In fact no Christian or Jew can even enter Mecca."


Newt Gingrich Statement on the Proposed Cordoba House
http://www.newt.org/newt-direct/newt...ue-ground-zero
post #74 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

[I]
Newt Gingrich Statement on the Proposed Cordoba House
http://www.newt.org/newt-direct/newt...ue-ground-zero

Did you read the opinion of this person who replied in the feedback section below the remarks of Newt?

I will paste it here:

"I like you Newt, but can't say I fully agree with you on this one. I just don't think we can stoop to the level of behavior of the Saudis. We're bigger than that.

This would be like saying Muslim women cannot walk American streets without their veils. It's just not American. We can't look at the restrictions placed on Americans by other countries, and then say, "well we're going to do the same to you."

Also, we allow churches and businesses to build buildings all the time without knowing exactly where the money came from.

Eye for an eye doesn't work here. "


I tend to agree with this individual.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #75 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

"The proposed “Cordoba House” overlooking the World Trade Center site – where a group of jihadists killed over 3000 Americans and destroyed one of our most famous landmarks – is a test of the timidity, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites. For example, most of them don’t understand that “[B]Cordoba House” is a deliberately insulting term. It refers to Cordoba, Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world’s third-largest mosque complex.

But this is not true. I am now even more convinced of the need for the thread on Islam which was Fellow's suggestion.

I think we all want peace and not division - sometimes division occurs and conflict arises, shit happens. But why make it up when it is not true?

Cordova is far from an insulting term: it is the place where Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together for 800 years.

Of course if you want to find reasons to deny this or denigrate it then you can as you can with anything.

Quote:
Today, some of the Mosque’s backers insist this term is being used to “symbolize interfaith cooperation” when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Cordoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest. It is a sign of their contempt for Americans and their confidence in our historic ignorance that they would deliberately insult us this way.

It is not a mosque. It is a Cultural Centre.

Every Islamist does not actually think what you quote here btw - Islamists generally hate the time of co-operation between religions because it is something they do not want. Like some in the West do not want it too.

Quote:
Those Islamists and their apologists who argue for “religious toleration” are arrogantly dishonest. They ignore the fact that more than 100 mosques already exist in New York City. Meanwhile, there are no churches or synagogues in all of Saudi Arabia. In fact no Christian or Jew can even enter Mecca."[/I]

Which is why I suppose such a Centre could never occur in Saudi Arabia. This is poor logic.

It would only be sound logic if the Centre was Saudi financed or Wahabi based. Or, if perhaps the Saudi version of Islam is correct.

You can argue those points but I would quote the Qur'an on the issue of Christians and Jews:

Quote:
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

So as the Qur'an claims that Jews and Christians will also go to heaven there arose two traditions in Islam:

1) That one should not - nor need to - try to convert them
2) that they can worship in Islamic areas.

Saudi do not believe this - or they ignore it - but there it is: in the Qur'an.

And also remember: the Saudi version of Islam is an eighteenth century development. Islam existed for 1200 years before the Saudi Wahabi belief was ever heard of.

But you know, at the end of the day it all boils down to this: we have all one life to live - whatever you think happens after if anything - and it will pass very quickly.

You can spend your time in a negative fashion looking for divisions and bad things - and you will find them pretty quick - or you can try to do something about it and leave the world a better place in no matter how small a way.

That's what I've decided to do anyway and I want to be counted with the peacemakers and those that make an effort and not those who complain and point out the bad while doing nothing. We all have this choice so between Mr Gringrich and the Cordoba Project I'll choose the latter as it seems to me more constructive. Others are free to make their own choices.

All I would say is the real evidence should be on the table so they can choose objectively without manipulation.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #76 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


You know, at the end of the day it all boils down to this: we have all one life to live - whatever you think happens after if anything - and it will pass very quickly.

You can spend your time in a negative fashion looking for divisions and bad things - and you will find them pretty quick - or you can try to do something about it and leave the world a better place in no matter how small a way.

That's what I've decided to do anyway and I want to be counted with the peacemakers and those that make an effort and not those who complain and point out the bad while doing nothing. We all have this choice so between Mr Gringrich and the Cordoba Project I'll choose the latter as it seems to me more constructive. Others are free to make their own choices.

All I would say is the real evidence should be on the table so they can choose objectively without manipulation.

AMEN Brother!

Bravo and well stated indeed! I agree completely!!!

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #77 of 447
Apropos.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #78 of 447
Al Qaeda needed a NYC field office; now they have one!



post #79 of 447
Not all comics are created equal. Yours are racist and idiotic.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #80 of 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Al Qaeda needed a NYC field office; now they have one!

They had one for 8 years it was called "The White House"
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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