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The War On Drugs, part two

post #1 of 52
Thread Starter 
I dont know how many of you read the article I linked to in <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000882&p=2" target="_blank">the previous thread on drugs</a> about the upcoming introduction of cannabis cafes (ironically called coffee shops) across the UK, but according to <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4381269,00.html" target="_blank">this article</a> in British Sunday newspaper The Observer a report by a government think tank has called for the effective decriminalisation of drugs in the UK, and another, even more official, government report along the same lines is expected next month. Note the sentence: Both here and in the US the war on drugs has been a resounding failure. Rarely in the history of wars have so many achieved so little at such a high cost.
So what do you think, Willoughby & co is the UK about to grind to a halt in a stoned haze?

[quote] looking out the morning I can see the trees, turn orange in the rays
don't need the smell of incense, in the morning haze
head on down the delta, in the shadow of the sun
seven shades of shiva rising, I am come
wah-hoo
let's do the war on drugs

War On Drugs, The Sisters of Mercy
<hr></blockquote>
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post #2 of 52
Yesterday Rush Limbough went on a very loong rant about the failed war on drugs and how we would have a lower crime rate if drugs were legalized. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
post #3 of 52
Funny you should mention...I'm doing my part to reduce the crime rate as we speak. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

i've seen this coming for the uk for a while. it's seemed like decriminalization was inevitable after the first coffee shop opened up and was able to stay open.
post #4 of 52
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent:
<strong>Yesterday Rush Limbough went on a very loong rant about the failed war on drugs and how we would have a lower crime rate if drugs were legalized. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Rush Limbough - who he?
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post #5 of 52
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by poor taylor:
<strong>Funny you should mention...I'm doing my part to reduce the crime rate as we speak. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Excellent!
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post #6 of 52
I tried reducing the crime rate once in college.... of course I didn't inhale.

post #7 of 52
Interesting development. Seems the war on drugs is now <a href="http://www.theonion.com/onion3811/drugs_now_legal.html" target="_blank">over</a>.

Cool. (notice that the guy in the pic is a Mac user - of course )
post #8 of 52
Murbut, that's really funny because I just headed to this thread to post that link. I found it during class tonight and I totally blew my cover.

I think the best way to get rid of all these illegal drugs is to buy as much as you can from drug dealers, and then set them on fire. Be sure to do so in a well unventilated area. That will show those drug pushers who's boss.
post #9 of 52
Yesterday Rush Limbough went on a very loong rant about the failed war on drugs and how we would have a lower crime rate if drugs were legalized

LIMBOUGH said that? woha...

And Taylor, that idea wouldnt work
Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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post #10 of 52
Thread Starter 
Groverat wrote in the now locked phantom double thread:-
[quote] I think we should watch the UK's new actions (inactions?) very carefully and consider the consequences of the new legislation.

No reason to dismiss the idea completely if our biggest ally is doing it. <hr></blockquote>

Groverat me old comrade in arms, that's quite a change from your stance in my <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000882" target="_blank">"All drugs should be..."</a> thread. You were spitting blood about the idea of legalising drugs there.....

[ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]</p>
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post #11 of 52
Thread Starter 
And now for some further <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4383488,00.html" target="_blank">food for thought</a>
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post #12 of 52
Oh Meanie, is that marijuana-induced haze preventing proper reading skills?

Scribam me in your linked thread:
"I'm all for legalizing weed, but this talk of making hard drugs legal for "medical use" is absolutely ridiculous."

As far as I know, the UK is just working with weed now, not smack or meth.

I only have one post in that thread and it is almost completely dedicated to refuting the assertion that drugs should be paid for for users by the .gov.

Silly Canadian.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #13 of 52
Just read that article and I'm really failing to see how the headline quote fits into the story at all.

An overdose of heroin killed is son, but it's the .gov's fault for keeping him away from heroin for so long that a regular dose killed him?

My God, how far people go these days to place blame as far away as possible.

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #14 of 52
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Oh Meanie, is that marijuana-induced haze preventing proper reading skills?

Scribam me in your linked thread:
"I'm all for legalizing weed, but this talk of making hard drugs legal for "medical use" is absolutely ridiculous."

As far as I know, the UK is just working with weed now, not smack or meth.

I only have one post in that thread and it is almost completely dedicated to refuting the assertion that drugs should be paid for for users by the .gov.

Silly Canadian.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I sit corrected
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post #15 of 52
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Just read that article and I'm really failing to see how the headline quote fits into the story at all.

An overdose of heroin killed is son, but it's the .gov's fault for keeping him away from heroin for so long that a regular dose killed him?

My God, how far people go these days to place blame as far away as possible.

<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Methinks you're missing the point. I quote from said article:-

[quote] I am convinced that he would be alive today if all drugs had been legalised and controlled, because he would have had no need to steal and would not have been in prison, the heroin would have been controlled and therefore not toxic, and proper treatment would have been available under such a regulated system.

Drugs, for me, should be a public-health rather than a criminal matter. First, they should be removed from the monopoly clutches of crime. Second, the billions saved in the costs of law enforcement, street crime and property theft should be redirected towards regulation, licensing, education, prevention, treatment and rehabilitation. The present uncontrolled drugs free-for-all will mean that thousands more will follow my son to the grave, victims of criminally supplied impure drugs, unless western governments recognise that the so-called "war against drugs" is unwinnable and wholly counterproductive.

Many will ask how this can be morally justified. My view is that there is more moral justification in trying to cut crime and save lives than in leaving things as they are - under the control of criminals. Those who believe legalisation will make more hard drugs available to more young people overlook the fact that drugs of all kinds are more available to more young people now than ever, even with prohibition in force. There is not a whit of evidence to support the idea that there is some massive reservoir of disaffected youth about to rush out and die. There are more pushers out there than chemists' shops, so those who want to use hard drugs are using them now and will continue to use them come what may. Therefore we should make sure the drugs they use are safe. This can only be done under legalised regulation.

Just like alcohol prohibition in America, attempts at enforcement have served largely to demonstrate the lethal impotence of the law. We are beginning to see US-style gang warfare in our towns and cities. Apart from the health costs, multibillion-pound drug cartels, by bribery and terror, are undermining and corrupting law-enforcement and political systems across the world. Prohibition is simply fuelling this fire. We are spending billions dribbling water in at one end while criminals are making billions pouring their toxic fuel in at the other.

Prohibition did not work in the past and it will not work in the future, simply because - now as in 1920s America - crime is controlling the supply. Therefore the link with crime must be broken. This would be a first step to removing the drugs issue from the monopoly control of crime and putting it where it belongs - in the area of public health, where it can be most effectively dealt with. Drug abusers, like alcoholics, should be treated as patients needing help rather than criminals to be punished. At present, we cannot control the drugs supply, either in quantity or quality, because we are not in charge of it. The Al Capones are. <hr></blockquote>
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post #16 of 52
Thread Starter 
Grover & co - interesting <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,2763,677370,00.html" target="_blank">article</a> in today's Guardian newspaper about the ongoing developments in UK drug legislation - note the final paragraph....
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post #17 of 52
There's a difference between "it would be nice for the gov't to offer these services" and "it's their fault that my son is dead!"

One is reasonable, one is bullshit, I'll leave you to guess which is which.

I would be willing to bet that most hardcore drug users have serious mental issues that should be treated anyway...
proud resident of a failed state
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post #18 of 52
If I could make all illicit drugs disappear from the face of this Earth with the snap of my fingers, I wouldn't even second guess it.

The right to arms is not a right in the UK. Murder and overall gun related violence is a lot less in the UK. So it will be very interesting to see what legalizing pot does over there.

However, I think your point originally was "all drugs" - which I will always be against.

I believe that legalizing drugs will make them easier to get for children and teens. I believe that it will send a message that society is more accepting of drug use. I believe that both of those things will bring society down to a new level. Those are just my opinions but they're not going to change.

I don't care how much money it would save to legalize drugs. Its not about the money for me.
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post #19 of 52
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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post #20 of 52
post #21 of 52
willoughby,

smoke a joint my friend, that propaganda don't work no more. it's poppycock. that boy's dad killed him... with poor parenting.

look to Amsterdam fer yer stats,

cuss

p.s. and please don't snap yer fingers, you'll put pfizer, guiness and all my fave manufacturers of illicit drugs out of business.
post #22 of 52
Amsterdam? you smoking crack again? Amsterdam may have a low crime rate but it has nothing to do with legalizing pot. Since you mentioned stats, why don't you produce some and show us the crime rate pre and post legalization. I would for you but the burden of proof is on you. Sorry.
post #23 of 52
umm, wait,

but yer the curious one...


sorry,

cuss

p.s. burdeon of proof? heheheee, oh yeah, you wait here... want some coffee too? how 'bout a nice danish? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
post #24 of 52
p.p.s. oh yeah, keep an eye out fer the cows, they'll beat me in.

p.p.p.s. and uh, what am i proving again? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
post #25 of 52
[quote]Originally posted by Willoughby:
<strong>If I could make all illicit drugs disappear from the face of this Earth with the snap of my fingers, I wouldn't even second guess it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Illicit by whose standards? Americas? Amsterdams? My personal standards? Who has the authority to decide what should disappear from the face of the earth?

If you ever get that finger snapping ability though, could you just snap them into my backyard?

Ahh, and for your entertainment, my favorite quote from the government's anti-drug website, freevibe.com:

[quote]IIf you smoke a lot, you could start to lose interest in how you look...<hr></blockquote>

It could make me stop caring about how I look? Jesus no! This isn't government propaganda, targeted at teenagers insecurities, is it? <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />

[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: poor taylor ]</p>
post #26 of 52
I'll drop them into your backyard if you live on a deserted island alone so you could destroy your mind in private.

When I speak of illicit drugs I mean crack, cocaine, heroin, lsd, e and drugs like that.

There's no excuse to do drugs of that sort. To all of you who might think I'm a prude and can't see things from the other side, you're wrong. I did drugs and I regret it. Those brain cells won't come back. Too bad so many people continue to destroy their own
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post #27 of 52
[quote]When I speak of illicit drugs I mean crack, cocaine, heroin, lsd, e and drugs like that.<hr></blockquote>

Where do you draw the line? I'm genuinely curious; i don't mean to come across as just argumentative.
post #28 of 52
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Willoughby:
<strong>
The right to arms is not a right in the UK. Murder and overall gun related violence is a lot less in the UK. So it will be very interesting to see what legalizing pot does over there.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly!
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post #29 of 52
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Willoughby:
<strong>
When I speak of illicit drugs I mean crack, cocaine, heroin, lsd, e and drugs like that.

There's no excuse to do drugs of that sort. To all of you who might think I'm a prude and can't see things from the other side, you're wrong. I did drugs and I regret it. Those brain cells won't come back. Too bad so many people continue to destroy their own </strong><hr></blockquote>

Willoughby, just so we're clear here, The Blue Meanie is no way advocating obviously harmful hard drugs like heroin, cocaine, etc. I just think the evidence supports a belief that legalisation of such substances would drastically cut the crime, premature death, black market profits and overall human misery associated with drug prohibition. But there is a difference between legalisation and advocation. We're not talking about downtown crack parlours here. Removing the criminal penalties associated with hard drugs would not mean that governments would be advocating their consumption. Does the fact that cigarettes are legal mean the government advocates cigarette smoking? I thought there was a health warning on every packet?

[ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]</p>
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post #30 of 52
Our society would certainly be better suited to rehabilitate perpetual drug abusers if we didn't have to concern ourselves with arresting them, going through trials, appeals, and eventually paying for them to rot in a cell. Obviously the threat of prison has not exactly succeeded as a deterrent to this sort of crime.
post #31 of 52
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by poor taylor:
<strong>Our society would certainly be better suited to rehabilitate perpetual drug abusers if we didn't have to concern ourselves with arresting them, going through trials, appeals, and eventually paying for them to rot in a cell. Obviously the threat of prison has not exactly succeeded as a deterrent to this sort of crime.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You might be onto something there, poor taylor.
BTW - what is this "city with the porn star name"?
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post #32 of 52
Houston? That's my guess.

Personally i believe that if you legalize drugs you'll eliminate some problems in how society treats drug abusers while opening up other problems. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
post #33 of 52
Saying that "Hard drugs" (defined as phsyically addictive, toxic, damaging tissue etc.) should be legalised for medical uses is ridiculous.

If a drug could be used safely as a medical aid, it should not be called a hardcore drug.

Legalising soft drugs, Marijuana and the rest of the hallucinogens is one thing but allowing the public to poisen themselves with lethal chemicals is most certainly another.... although thanks to current drug policy it happens anyway.
970 pork chop sandwiches
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970 pork chop sandwiches
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post #34 of 52
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by DigitalMonkeyBoy:
<strong>Saying that "Hard drugs" (defined as phsyically addictive, toxic, damaging tissue etc.) should be legalised for medical uses is ridiculous.

If a drug could be used safely as a medical aid, it should not be called a hardcore drug.

Legalising soft drugs, Marijuana and the rest of the hallucinogens is one thing but allowing the public to poisen themselves with lethal chemicals is most certainly another.... although thanks to current drug policy it happens anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Who said hard drugs should be legalised for "medical uses", digitalmonkeyboy? Certainly not The Blue Meanie...
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post #35 of 52
Outsider always wondered why the Blue Meanie speaks of himself in the 3rd person... It's mighty odd.
post #36 of 52
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Outsider always wondered why the Blue Meanie speaks of himself in the 3rd person... It's mighty odd.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Gets the name out. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #37 of 52
[quote]Who said hard drugs should be legalised for "medical uses", digitalmonkeyboy? Certainly not The Blue Meanie...<hr></blockquote>

There's thousands of 'hard drugs' legalized for medical use! One example: barbiturates and their substitutes (ativan etc) are doled out like candy by physicians all over the nation (under pressure by the manufacturers), and perhaps 10s of millions of Americans are addicted. The withdrawal symptoms from these (over)prescribed substances make heroin/morphine withdrawal seem like a walk in the park. But the pharmaceutical industry's profits keep rolling in from this captive market of addicts and the FDA ignores the problems. Business as usual; some pushers are OK, whilst others go to jail.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #38 of 52
What are the contributing factors involved to place a drug in the illicit category anywayz?

Ketracel
post #39 of 52
SamJoOll, your penchant for hyperbole often makes a perfectly reasonable claim seem ridiculous. If you'd tone down the rhetoric a tiny bit you'd be a hell of a lot more convincing.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #40 of 52
[quote]SamJoOll, your penchant for hyperbole often makes a perfectly reasonable claim seem ridiculous. If you'd tone down the rhetoric a tiny bit you'd be a hell of a lot more convincing.<hr></blockquote>

Perhaps I am as skeptical of the the integrity of the powers-that-be as you are trusting.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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