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Microsoft's Steve Ballmer rumored to present at Apple's WWDC 2010 - Page 4

post #121 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleGreen View Post

What a terrible thing to write.

Bill Gates is a fantastic human being. He is doing wonderful things with his foundation. He deserves respect. He certainly has mine.

I agree the post was over the top, but Gates isn't perfect either. See excellent response to my post:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=101
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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post #122 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

This would be a terribly short sighted deal for Apple. Apple should keep Microsoft as far away as possible. Only bad things happen when Microsoft gets close in, just look at Apples's history of close deals with Microsoft.

huh? I think you're not seeing what this is. Apple will embrace this with open arms if its true.
It's providing a development platform for iPhone/iPad on Windows with Microsoft's official blessing. It can only work to Apple's advantage. there's no downside.

Look... development systems don't require beefy hardware like they used to 10 years ago. Now basically your lowest end system can develop for iPhone/iPad. It's become a commodity.

The only thing is there is a psychological barrier to some developers, especially those used to Visual Studio. ( Remember folks, not all developers were CS majors in college and have a hard time with change )

So if it is true about Visual C++, then Apple gets the immediate win of:
1) giving developers their crutch of sticking with the same platform
2) giving developers and even lower entry point with commodity hardware that the Windows/x86 platform offers

They also gain these valuable side effects:

3) Much larger development force ( especially in the corporate world where people are uneasy about change )
4) simplifying porting of existing applications from a predominantly Windows world
5) exposing Windows developers to Apple development itself encouraging future OS X development possibilities
post #123 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by macFanDave View Post

Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!

How is MS going to sell Visual Studio 2010 to Mac developers when Apple give them Xcode for free? People buy bottled water, so maybe there's hope.

It's probably not aimed towards Mac developers, but towards PC developers that would like to compile for the Mac platform without learning Xcode.
post #124 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

This?

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._gianduia.html

According to the article, it's entirely HTML5 based. It's a terrible thing, being "locked-in" to open stadards.

Guess I remembered it wrong.

Java is considered an open standard isn't it? Silverlight works with Java. BOOM
post #125 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by huntercr View Post

5) exposing Windows developers to Apple development itself encouraging future OS X development possibilities

That's a big one. I think in the future it'll be important for any well rounded developer to have experience with developing software for OSX, or even iPhone OS (with the way the ipad is selling.)
post #126 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by huntercr View Post

... It's providing a development platform for iPhone/iPad on Windows with Microsoft's official blessing. It can only work to Apple's advantage. there's no downside.

... They also gain these valuable side effects:

3) Much larger development force ( especially in the corporate world where people are uneasy about change ) ...

I hadn't considered the corporate side of the equation. There could be some benefit to Apple there. However, given that MS is apparently pushing ahead with their own mobile platform, what exactly would be the upside for them in this scenario?

It just seems like this rumor is either completely off base as to what the 7 minutes is for, or nothing more than a rumor at all.
post #127 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

That's a big one. I think in the future it'll be important for any well rounded developer to have experience with developing software for OSX, or even iPhone OS (with the way the ipad is selling.)

Apple probably has some secret Xcode Windows porting tool that they use for iTunes and Safari. If they released that IDE, maybe someday all Windows software will be "Made on Mac".

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post #128 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Guess I remembered it wrong.

Java is considered an open standard isn't it? Silverlight works with Java. BOOM

Silverlight is not an open standard. BOOM!
post #129 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleGreen View Post

What a terrible thing to write.

Bill Gates is a fantastic human being. He is doing wonderful things with his foundation. He deserves respect. He certainly has mine.

Dude, if you take the internet that seriously, you have a few other things wrong with you.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #130 of 165
... it will be about Development for Mobile OS X* on Windows period!

* Apple will rename iPhone OS to the Mobile OS X platform, and it will encompass support for iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad (and a few implied future devices).


I've read all the posts. Others, more expert than I, have posted how: it could work; it is technically feasible; it could be done without violating Apple's rules for cross-compiling, etc

It what they said is true, than there are really no technical barriers-- in fact, the technical solution may have already been implemented.


There are strategic and tactical reasons for Apple and Microsoft to do this, and I'll get to them in a moment.

But first, consider why this is about development, and not about Bing, porting Word, Exchange enhancements, etc.:

1) WWDC is a Developers conference

2) WWDC 2010 is about Development for the Mobile OS X platform

3) Anything else is just boilerplate


Now, to the more interesting question: Why would Apple and Microsoft agree to do this?

The simple answer, is that: Apple and Microsoft need each other!


Apple has the hottest/established smart phone
Apple has the hottest/established non-phone device that can be used as a mobile transactor-- the iPod Touch
Apple has the hottest/established tablet device

Microsoft's smart phone business is languishing, likely through 2011
Microsoft's mobile transactor devices are overpriced and outdated
Microsoft has no entry in the hottest market segment, the tablet, and likely won't, through 2011
Microsoft has no viable mobile OS, and likely won't through 2011

Apple has a loyal following of developers
Apple has a distribution infrastructure for consumers
Apple has a few, but growing number of IT developers
Apple has a limited distribution infrastructure for IT

Microsoft has a large, well established base of IT developers
Microsoft has a powerful, established development IDE/Tools
Microsoft has a proven, well established infrastructure to support IT, including mobile

Apple has the devices that IT wants to use
Microsoft has the developers and infrastructure that IT wants to use


You can connect the dots anyway you like... Apple and Microsoft need each other!


So, this isn't about Bing, or Office-- It's about development to exploit the mobile platform for the next 1-2 years.


There is risk on both sides:

-- the fatal embrace where one side sucks all the air from the other
-- the encapsulation where one side subsumes the other
-- the loss of IP & technological lead advanrages

But, these two have danced together before, and are wary!


The biggest risk of all is to do nothing, and let this two-year window of opportunity pass, or worse, be exploited by others.



Apple and Microsoft need each other!


There are nuances, but if it happens, that's what I think this is about!

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post #131 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

This would be a terribly short sighted deal for Apple. Apple should keep Microsoft as far away as possible. Only bad things happen when Microsoft gets close in, just look at Apples's history of close deals with Microsoft.

Not to mention that Microsoft would probably just be trying to do what Adobe tried to do with Flash re: iPhone App development. Which means it would be irrelevant come iPhone OS 4.0.
post #132 of 165
Balmer makes the most appealing and intreguing presentations.

*Balmer walks in with a sweaty button-down shirt* "VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO! VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO! VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO, VISUAL STUDIO!"

....
"Thank you, Steve Balmer."
post #133 of 165
"Developers Developers Developers Developers"


post #134 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Silverlight is not an open standard. BOOM!

I think you're missing the point. Someone said if you go with Silverlight, you're "locked in." If you go with html5, how are you not locked into html5? You say html5 is an open standard, but Silverlight can run off Java, which is an open standard.

It all depends on what you need in the end. As I read more about these things, it becomes apparent that no single technology can accommodate 100% of all web developers.
post #135 of 165
Nice to see a bunch of people who clearly have no software experience talking about how VS2010 would not be suited for the iPhone OS SDK. First off, VS2010 is an IDE, not an SDK or compiler or whatever else people are running around in their delusional heads. It's a glorified version of Notepad. The iPhone OS compiler comes with the SDK along with the emulator and the api binaries. This will be recompiled and integrated into VS2010 for development on iPhone. Also VS2010 owns really, really hard. I would also be really surprised if this didn't work with Visual C++ Express, and that is just the Visual Studio C++ component with the team collaboration stuff removed.
post #136 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

"Developers Developers Developers Developers"



as it turns out the special guest speaking is not Steve Ballmer but rather Peter Boyles

post #137 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkeath View Post

Nice to see a bunch of people who clearly have no software experience talking about how VS2010 would not be suited for the iPhone OS SDK. First off, VS2010 is an IDE, not an SDK or compiler or whatever else people are running around in their delusional heads. It's a glorified version of Notepad. The iPhone OS compiler comes with the SDK along with the emulator and the api binaries. This will be recompiled and integrated into VS2010 for development on iPhone. Also VS2010 owns really, really hard. I would also be really surprised if this didn't work with Visual C++ Express, and that is just the Visual Studio C++ component with the team collaboration stuff removed.

Could you clarify this a bit?

I don't understand: "Also VS2010 owns really, really hard."

It appears that you are saying that the iPhone development system offered by Apple could easily be incorporated into the development system (VS2010) offered by Microsoft.

.
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post #138 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

as it turns out the special guest speaking is not Steve Ballmer but rather Peter Boyles


holy CRAP
post #139 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

I think you're missing the point. Someone said if you go with Silverlight, you're "locked in." If you go with html5, how are you not locked into html5? You say html5 is an open standard, but Silverlight can run off Java, which is an open standard.

Because, by definition, open standards don't lock you in. The whole meaning of the phrase, "locked in" relates to proprietary technologies, where you are "locked in" or dependent on the owner of the technology. Since open standards aren't controlled by a single entity, you cannot, by definition, be "locked in" when using them. (Despite my earlier sarcastic quip re the horrors of such a situation.) That's the whole point of open standards

You may be committed to HTML5, you may depend on it, you may, "bet the company on it," but, by definition, you cannot be "locked in" by it.

Just because Silverlight may have some association with an open standard, doesn't make it an open standard, it's still just another proprietary technology. Saying it is, is just turning language on it's head and making nonsense of it.
post #140 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

as it turns out the special guest speaking is not Steve Ballmer but rather Peter Boyles

With the possible problem being that Peter Boyle is actually dead, and Steve Ballmer only appears to be.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #141 of 165
Oh please, oh please, oh please, oh please, oh please, oh please, oh please:

Jobs: Hello, I'm a Mac.
Ballmer: and I'm a PC.
post #142 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

as it turns out the special guest speaking is not Steve Ballmer but rather Peter Boyles



Peter Boyle died 4 yrs ago.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Boyle
post #143 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Saying it is, is just turning language on it's head and making nonsense of it.

I never said it was. I said it used Java, which is. But I see your point about being locked in.
post #144 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

"Developers Developers Developers Developers"



post #145 of 165
Quote:
Microsofts official Twitter feed:

Steve Ballmer not speaking at Apple Dev Conf. Nor appearing on Dancing with the Stars. Nor riding in the Belmont. Just FYI.

So, I guess there's nothing to see here and we can all move along.
post #146 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Could you clarify this a bit?

I don't understand: "Also VS2010 owns really, really hard."

It appears that you are saying that the iPhone development system offered by Apple could easily be incorporated into the development system (VS2010) offered by Microsoft.

.

As for VS2010 owning, it's just a really awesome development environment. It has a lot of developer tools that are top notch and the debugger is amazing. I can't list all of the reasons VS2010 is a really good IDE because the list could go on forever. Say what you will about Microsoft, but their developer support is unmatched in the industry.

As for how IDEs and SDKs work, and IDE, or Integrated Development Environment, is basically a piece of software that integrates separate components, such as the compiler the debugger, the text editor, etc., into one place for the ease of the developer. XCode is an IDE, as is VS2010. Without all of the above components I mentioned, an IDE is simply a shell that could be useful. Because people are going to be using the IDE for common applications (VS2010 includes C++, C, C#, and VB development using native Windows libraries and .NET. XCode includes C, C++, and Objective-C/Cocoa using native MacOS libraries), these components come configured and installed with the IDE. Just for reference, the compilers for both Mac OS and Windows come with the OS without the IDEs. An IDE simply uses that compiler. Otherwise, a programmer can use a text editor to write the program and use the compiler through the command line to compile the file. This is true on Mac OS, Windows, and Linux/Unix.

Now let's take a look at the iPhone OS SDK. This includes the iPhone OS compiler (different from Mac OS due to different processor architectures for the two platforms), API binaries for the iPhone, and the iPhone emulator plus some other things I probably don't know about. XCode does not have iPhone development tools installed by default. It does not know what the iPhone even is until you install the SDK. VS2010 is the exact same way with the WP7 developer tools as is Eclipse (the IDE used for Android development) for the Android SDK. When the SDK is installed, the SDK tells the IDE, "Hey here I am." The IDE then says, "Hey there you are." They will then work in harmony with each other.

VS2010 would work this way with the iPhone SDK. The SDK components would be compiled (by Apple) so that Windows can see and use them, and it would integrate with VS2010 much like how it already integrates with XCode. It's as simple as that. If you're still confused, think of an SDK as a plugin, much like AdBlock is with Firefox and take my word for it.

Also, to illustrate how good VS2010 is, a friend of mine who is an avid Linux user who hates Windows basically gushed to me how good Visual Studio is when he had to use it for an assignment. This guy does not like Windows or any Microsoft software, but he absolutely loved Visual Studio. I would not worry about it since the tools that actually build the binaries are controlled by Apple. VS is simply how the programmer interfaces with those tools.
post #147 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight View Post

That's just a ignorant statement. So ignorant, I dont even know how to reply. I'll just say idiot and move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by livings124

This whole thing is a bad rumor. Apple isn't hurting for developers by a long shot, and right now all developers need to buy a Mac. As usual, garbage from an "analyst".

Are you kidding me. It's already been proven the analyst was talking out of his/her ass. I stand by my statement 100%. People right now are switching to Mac to become developers. And that's without going into the issues of porting Objecttive-C development to windows (which are massive). So in conclusion, BlackSummerNight = idiot.
post #148 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Silverlight is not an open standard. BOOM!

Actually, C# and .NET are open standards. They are both ECMA and ISO standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework
Quote:
Microsoft submitted the specifications for the Common Language Infrastructure (which includes the core class libraries, Common Type System, and the Common Intermediate Language),[6][7][8] the C# language,[9] and the C++/CLI language[10] to both ECMA and the ISO, making them available as open standards. This makes it possible for third parties to create compatible implementations of the framework and its languages on other platforms.

Silverlight implements a subset of .NET, commonly using C#. This is how we have things such as the Moonlight project for alternative versions of the runtime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight_(runtime)

Edit: The fact that MS' environment of the future (C#/.NET) is an open standard while Apple's environment of the future (Objective-C/Cocoa) is not an open standard is something I never see people discuss. Given Apple's pro-open standard PR lately, it seems like something valid to bring up.
post #149 of 165
If Balmer does appear on stage the symbolism would be awesome:

- a fat sweaty man prone to raising his voice representing a company that has grown fat, lazy and out of touch, and is increasingly frustrated with their lack of success in new markets.
- a thin man who speaks softly representing a company that has remained lean and hungry even as it claims ever more victories in the market
post #150 of 165
post #151 of 165
Barron's is not a rumor mill. If it is reported by them, then it must be true.

That will be the biggest surprise of the decade from Apple. Bing is coming to iPhone. Google is out with its big mouth and theft of trade secrets. They deserve to be shoved out of the Apple neighborhood.
post #152 of 165
@ Dick Applebaum:
"Now, to the more interesting question: Why would Apple and Microsoft agree to do this?
The simple answer, is that: Apple and Microsoft need each other!"

Wrong. Apple needs Microsoft to continue failing in the mobile space.

And, in case you haven't noticed yet. the rumor turned out to be false.
Ballmer won't be on stage at WWDC this year. Surprise.

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post #153 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by livings124 View Post

Are you kidding me. It's already been proven the analyst was talking out of his/her ass. I stand by my statement 100%. People right now are switching to Mac to become developers. And that's without going into the issues of porting Objecttive-C development to windows (which are massive). So in conclusion, BlackSummerNight = idiot.

you know, with everyone calling each other idiots around here it really destroys the illusion that we're all geniuses who know what we're talking about.

Seriously, you guys are name calling over a rumor about Steve Ballmer. Ridiculous.
post #154 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

If Balmer does appear on stage the symbolism would be awesome:

- a fat sweaty man prone to raising his voice representing a company that has grown fat, lazy and out of touch, and is increasingly frustrated with their lack of success in new markets.
- a thin man who speaks softly representing a company that has remained lean and hungry even as it claims ever more victories in the market

Even further, Apple, just like Jobs, was very weak and considered almost dead not too long ago.
post #155 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

@ Dick Applebaum:
"Now, to the more interesting question: Why would Apple and Microsoft agree to do this?
The simple answer, is that: Apple and Microsoft need each other!"

Wrong. Apple needs Microsoft to continue failing in the mobile space.

And, in case you haven't noticed yet. the rumor turned out to be false.
Ballmer won't be on stage at WWDC this year. Surprise.

In case you hadn't noticed, my post begins:

"If Balmer presents at WWDC..."

The thing that you fail to realize is that by cooperating, Apple and Microsoft could, both, maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses... and exploit an opportunity, to their mutual benefit.


The denial post also mentioned:

Quote:
The Twitter post does not address the other part of Chowdhry's claim: that Microsoft's Visual Studio 2010 will allow developers to write applications for Apple's iPhone OS -- including the iPhone, iPod touch and iPad -- as well as software for the Mac OS X operating system.

Surprise!

Microsoft failing in the mobile space is, likely, more beneficial to Android or Palm who can gather the low-hanging fruit to establish a larger install base.

.
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post #156 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Actually, yes.

Satan used to be God's right-hand man before they had a falling out and he started his own concern on a lower floor.

I believe you were referring to the once angelic guitar player, Lucifer!
He thought he could play better and cooler solos-NOT!
post #157 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheops2006 View Post

This is what is happening
http://www.betanews.com/article/Micr...arb/1259185079

Unlikely. Apple would kill for keeping only QT stack and JavaScriptCore (aka ``HTML5'' on AI board ) on their platforms.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #158 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Apple probably has some secret Xcode Windows porting tool that they use for iTunes and Safari. If they released that IDE, maybe someday all Windows software will be "Made on Mac".

from what i read about itunes and safari on windows (never used it myself), i don't think that would be something to brag about...
post #159 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Actually you can program silverlight with a number of different languages. It's not locked into some proprietary Microsoft language. It's just an alternative to flash that suits some people better, that's all.

What do you think Apple's flash alternative will be? Once you start using it, you'll be locked in. It's the way these kinds of products work.

Either way the odds of Apple suddenly supporting silverlight and not flash in the iphone OS are absolutely slim to none

Yeah, you can program Microsoft Silverlight in any proprietary, patent encumbered, Microsoft language you would like. Yes, it is Microsoft's proprietary, patent encumbered, clone of Flash.

Apple does not have a flash alternative per say....the wc3 does in the form of an open standard called HTML and CSS, along with the open standard ECMA standard of Javascript.
post #160 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asherian View Post

Actually, C# and .NET are open standards. They are both ECMA and ISO standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework


Silverlight implements a subset of .NET, commonly using C#. This is how we have things such as the Moonlight project for alternative versions of the runtime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight_(runtime)

Edit: The fact that MS' environment of the future (C#/.NET) is an open standard while Apple's environment of the future (Objective-C/Cocoa) is not an open standard is something I never see people discuss. Given Apple's pro-open standard PR lately, it seems like something valid to bring up.

The problem is C# and .NET are _NOT_ open standards. They are proprietary technologies controlled by a single vendor...Microsoft. A real open standards is controlled by a vendor neutral standards body like Oasis or WC3. ISO used to be a solid standards organization until Microsoft bribed and stacked committees to get their proprietary, patent encumbered MSOOXML format pushed through.

Furthermore, to do anything with Silverlight or .net you need all the proprietary libraries Microsoft has. Basically it is a one way street. Sure you can develop using the faux standards, but you can not do anything or ever run something developed with Microsofts tools on a non Microsoft implementation. But you can go the other way. Basically the same trap they used back on Java.

Moonlight does not run 90% of the Silverlight content out there. How can it, when all the meat of Silverlight is a proprietary, patent encumbered Microsoft technology?
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