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Microsoft's Steve Ballmer rumored to present at Apple's WWDC 2010 - Page 3

post #81 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dempson View Post

The situation with CodeWarrior wasn't one where Apple was "dependent" on another company. CodeWarrior was simply a better compiler and development environment than Apple's own tools, so it was more popular with developers. Apple supplied the Mac development SDKs for use with CodeWarrior.

A bigger issue was for application developers who used CodeWarrior when the product was discontinued - they had to port their application to build with a different set of code tools and learn how to use a different IDE. (This was on top of issues around Carbon vs Cocoa.)

(Sorry, lost track of what I snipped above.)

This latter point was exactly the problem with CodeWarrior. It offered an alternate framework that interfered with adoption of native Cocoa APIs. It was a layer between developers and the OS that defined the platform rather than Apple being free to define it. (Sound familiar?) Once Apple made the move to OS X, CodeWarrior had to die so Mac OS X could prosper. Developers had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.
post #82 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullhead View Post

This would be a horrible move. Silverlight is a terrible, proprietary, patent encumbered, Microsoft technology designed to move Microsoft's illegally obtained desktop monopoly onto the web and non-Microsoft platforms. It is designed to lock developers and consumers into yet another layer of super expensive, proprietary Microsoft technology. No thanks, i will pass.

Actually you can program silverlight with a number of different languages. It's not locked into some proprietary Microsoft language. It's just an alternative to flash that suits some people better, that's all.

What do you think Apple's flash alternative will be? Once you start using it, you'll be locked in. It's the way these kinds of products work.

Either way the odds of Apple suddenly supporting silverlight and not flash in the iphone OS are absolutely slim to none
post #83 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post


Translation -- don't believe everything Steve tells you.

.


Advice - don't believe anything Steve tells you. Unless you can get independent verification.
post #84 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

... What do you think Apple's flash alternative will be? Once you start using it, you'll be locked in. It's the way these kinds of products work. ...

Apple has made it pretty clear that their "flash alternative" is HTML5. I don't think developers should be too upset about HTML5 "lock-in".
post #85 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

Advice - don't believe anything Stevie tells you. Unless you can get independent verification.

There, I fixed your typo for you.
post #86 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Does Xcode work on PC?

Both "yes" and "no". Project Builder did, 100% run on Windows. Project Builder is the IDE prior to the rebranding to XCode (well, yeah, it was a little more complex than that, but you get the idea..) Interface Builder ran on Windows too. I have seen/used them both to build Objective-C projects under Windows.

The issue will be that this was back in the halcyon days of NT3.5, so I've no idea what state that code base is now in. But, the answer is, for sure, not an absolute "no".
post #87 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

Debugging could be interesting, as it would pretty much require a fully operational set of Apple frameworks running on Windows. Never mind the incompatibilities. Maybe it will have a minimal Mac OS X install within a Virtual Machine.

Gee, the Mono guys have it working - it can't be THAT hard.

iPhone, that will be in a virtual machine. Mac - well who knows, but a remote debugger is not impossible.
post #88 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post

Now AAPL is valued higher than MS you have to write

"Maybe App£e is buying some MS stock to help them..."

App£
post #89 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by troberts View Post

3 - Windows is getting an infrastructure that will allow Mac applications to run natively (yellowbox?)

+1 for Yellowbox! OpenStep for Win32 is sadly missed :-(
post #90 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Apple has made it pretty clear that their "flash alternative" is HTML5. I don't think developers should be too upset about HTML5 "lock-in".

no there was an article around here talking about how Apple was developing like a full blown flash alternative, not html5. Maybe I read it wrong.

Either way, once you start using html5, aren't you "locked in" to html5?
post #91 of 165
What about asking Ahmadinejad too?

While Ballmer speaks, one developer shouts,

"YOU LIE!"


The 1942 State of the Union message:
Roosevelt, "Ladies and Gentlemen, Madame speaker, to tell us today about National Socialism, I present our comrade, Der Feuer, Adolf Hitler!"

Makes one wonder, dId God ever ask Satan to speak at one heavenly event?
post #92 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

no there was an article around here talking about how Apple was developing like a full blown flash alternative, not html5. Maybe I read it wrong.

Either way, once you start using html5, aren't you "locked in" to html5?

This?

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles..._gianduia.html

According to the article, it's entirely HTML5 based. It's a terrible thing, being "locked-in" to open stadards.
post #93 of 165
I think this is a really REALLY bad thing! Just look at what MS has done since Ballmer has taken over! It's the **STEVE BALLMER TOUCH-OF-DEATH(c)**

Apple should take some advice from Monty Python and ... Run Away!

KRR
post #94 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

(Sorry, lost track of what I snipped above.)

This latter point was exactly the problem with CodeWarrior. It offered an alternate framework that interfered with adoption of native Cocoa APIs. It was a layer between developers and the OS that defined the platform rather than Apple being free to define it. (Sound familiar?) Once Apple made the move to OS X, CodeWarrior had to die so Mac OS X could prosper. Developers had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.

Would VS be less likely to similarly be slow in including new and updated APIs? Or would it use Apple supplied update mechanism so no devs would be dependent on MS to stay current?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #95 of 165
Bill Gates' college roommate will bomb, as usual.
post #96 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

(Sorry, lost track of what I snipped above.)

This latter point was exactly the problem with CodeWarrior. It offered an alternate framework that interfered with adoption of native Cocoa APIs. It was a layer between developers and the OS that defined the platform rather than Apple being free to define it. (Sound familiar?) Once Apple made the move to OS X, CodeWarrior had to die so Mac OS X could prosper. Developers had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.

Um, I remember it slightly differently. Codewarrior only built PEF executables, I don't think they ever migrated to Mach-o. Metrowerks sold their Intel compiler to a third party. Apple announced their move to Intel. Metrowerks rolled over, got bought up by Freescale (? IIRC) and vanished into a puff of smoke. All their own doing. Their product was tied to PowerPC, and the platform was EOL. They had no Intel compiler*, so would need to rebadge GCC. Their Mac toolset was geared around PEF, and PEF died with the PowerPC.

* their Intel compiler was a pile of crud and only really did PE. I think they used GCC for any ELF based IA32 platforms, certainly did for most things after they started to spread their product range too thinly over emerging platforms like the Mobile Linux IDE they were doing for QTopia etc.
post #97 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSummerNight View Post

That's just a ignorant statement. So ignorant, I dont even know how to reply. I'll just say idiot and move on.

Actually, it couldn't have been more on point. Apple sells Hardware that runs great software... not the other way around.

Giving windows users the ability to code for the iPhone removes all incentive for a developer to own a Mac (and understand the UI and the user expectations and the HID and the... well you get the point).

Unfortunately, not realizing that, makes you the ignorant one.
post #98 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Would VS be less likely to similarly be slow in including new and updated APIs? Or would it use Apple supplied update mechanism so no devs would be dependent on MS to stay current?

Visual Studio has an extensive Plugin sub-system. You can get Mono plug-ins, Qt plugins, and much more of that ilk. The VS IDE engine (less compilers) can be licensed and used by third parties. Apple could have an entirely Apple maintained product, that supports Visual Studio. Microsoft would not really need to get involved.
post #99 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Would VS be less likely to similarly be slow in including new and updated APIs? Or would it use Apple supplied update mechanism so no devs would be dependent on MS to stay current?

If iPhone OS (and/or Mac OS*) development tools were incorporated into VS, I think that would depend entirely on the nature of the integration. But, I just don't see the upside for Apple in doing this. (Seriously, who are all these developers who are clamoring to develop for the iPhone, only being held back because they can't use VS to do it?) Xcode for Windows would make more sense than VS integration, unless the "integration" would be effectively that.



* Although, I don't really see the point of avoiding buying a Mac so you could do Mac OS development on Windows, you still need to test your software on a Mac.
post #100 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by esummers View Post

This doesn't make any sense. Microsoft tools use a completely different runtime. Apple just made the no 3rd party runtimes rule. Apple has been putting a lot of work in to their development tools the last few years. Microsoft's tools wouldn't bring anything new. The only thing that makes any sense would be .net coming to the Mac as an alternative to Java (with some of the same user experience problems as Java), but I don't think that Apple would encourage this. Maybe it uses scripting bridge? I could see that I suppose. It's not going to run on the iPad/iPhone in that case though.

There is one notable thing here though. The reference implementation (without the user interface stuff) of .net from Microsoft Research does compile on the Mac. They targeted the Mac to prove that it was cross platform capable like Java. It wasn't heavily optimized for the Mac though.

It makes perfect sense. This completely shuts down the FTC investigation. It's just another way of .|.. to Adobe.
post #101 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

Shifting alliances are the way of the world. I don't like "Bullet-head" Ballmer any more than the next guy, but Microsoft and Apple have a long history together. There is a tacit acknowledgement that when they can help themselves by helping each other, they will. In retrospect, Gates was never the devil that many of us liked to cast him as. He and Jobs were the original Pirates of Silicon Valley after all. The two young dudes who revolutionized personal computer technology worldwide. There is an underlying camaraderie on the human level--born out of a common experience. Like old soldiers, even on opposite sides. Despite the competition, I think the two had genuine respect for one another. On the other hand, Ballmer is just a tool.

If we're looking for a new enemy, look no further than Google. I thought Schmidt's cloning of the iPhone after sitting on Apple's board was corporate treachery of the highest order. I still scratch my head that Apple hasn't made stronger legal moves on that front. The lost iPhone episode pales by comparison. Wish they had kicked in HIS door and seized his personal communications!

Adobe makes a lot of noise, but they know what side their bread is buttered on. They are not even close to the threat Google is.

A very nice summary of the realities at work here, though I might differ with you somewhat on the characterization of Bill Gates. He's polished his reputation since retiring to philanthropy but many of us remember when he was the chief shark of the industry, working very hard to make sure that no technology that did not benefit Microsoft reached the public. His company had the power to make that happen, and they used it. Gates did a lot of damage in his day.

Still, as you say, alliances shift all the time. Apple and Microsoft have a common concern in Google, and so I would not be at all surprised to see them link arms where convenience and a mutual challenger dictate. Ballmer on stage with Jobs, though? That I doubt somehow. More probably someone else from Microsoft who won't be such a distraction, either from the message or from Uncle Steve.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #102 of 165
Well to me the developer tools thing seems a little far fetched, but at the same time, I wouldn't mind it happening, especially if it allows developers who are locked into Windows (and like it or not, many corporations are), to create apps for iPhone and iPad.

If Balmer does appear on stage it would seem more likely to be about search however.

Again, assuming there is some truth in it, it does show how pragmatic both companies can be. With Google attempting to get into everything, Microsoft and Apple aligning on some projects could help push back against Google.
post #103 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson101 View Post

Um, I remember it slightly differently. Codewarrior only built PEF executables, I don't think they ever migrated to Mach-o. Metrowerks sold their Intel compiler to a third party. Apple announced their move to Intel. Metrowerks rolled over, got bought up by Freescale (? IIRC) and vanished into a puff of smoke. All their own doing. Their product was tied to PowerPC, and the platform was EOL. They had no Intel compiler*, so would need to rebadge GCC. Their Mac toolset was geared around PEF, and PEF died with the PowerPC.

* their Intel compiler was a pile of crud and only really did PE. I think they used GCC for any ELF based IA32 platforms, certainly did for most things after they started to spread their product range too thinly over emerging platforms like the Mobile Linux IDE they were doing for QTopia etc.

As I recall it, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth by many CodeWarrior developers from the very beginnings of Mac OS X. They maintained it was "unfair" of Apple to effectively deprecate PowerPlant. (Of course, what they really meant was that they thought it was "unfair" for them to have to rewrite their apps.) Intel was certainly the final nail in their coffin, but they were doomed long before that.
post #104 of 165
Steve Bomber will get up on stage and talk about how excited they are that Bing is in iPhone os4, and halfway through his presentation, they'll play this video on the big-screen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcUic...eature=related
post #105 of 165
I know all the leaks leave Jobs with no surprises left to reveal, but this? Ballmer on an Apple stage is just a bad idea.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #106 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

As I recall it, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth by many CodeWarrior developers from the very beginnings of Mac OS X. They maintained it was "unfair" of Apple to effectively deprecate PowerPlant. (Of course, what they really meant was that they thought it was "unfair" for them to have to rewrite their apps.) Intel was certainly the final nail in their coffin, but they were doomed long before that.

Yeah. when their lead developer took an unexpected indefinite leave of absence and nobody could figure out his code.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #107 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by macFanDave View Post

Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!

How is MS going to sell Visual Studio 2010 to Mac developers when Apple give them Xcode for free? People buy bottled water, so maybe there's hope.

From what I gather, Visual Studio is an SDK for Windows. Something to help software folks. And given the stuff that is coming out for Macs only that is actually rather good, I could see Microsoft wanting the same goodies for their kiddies. So yeah, make it easier for folks to do both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esummers View Post

This doesn't make any sense. Microsoft tools use a completely different runtime. Apple just made the no 3rd party runtimes rule.

For the iphone OS, yes. but this conference isn't just about the iphone and friends. It's about Mac OS X also. So some presentations will be about that and have nothing to do with the iphone side.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #108 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

If iPhone OS (and/or Mac OS*) development tools were incorporated into VS, I think that would depend entirely on the nature of the integration. But, I just don't see the upside for Apple in doing this. (Seriously, who are all these developers who are clamoring to develop for the iPhone, only being held back because they can't use VS to do it?) Xcode for Windows would make more sense than VS integration, unless the "integration" would be effectively that.



* Although, I don't really see the point of avoiding buying a Mac so you could do Mac OS development on Windows, you still need to test your software on a Mac.

There may be developers that may not be clamoring to do Mac/iPhone development, but for whom having to buy a Mac might be a barrier to giving it a try.

For a shop like ours, we have Macs available for our Mac development. One current downside is that the build servers that we use for our Windows products cannot be used for Mac builds (obviously). We have to maintain separate build systems, scripts, etc for our Mac software. This change, if true, might allow us to build the Mac projects with the Windows projects on the same build servers. We would still maintain our Mac workstations for actual development, but some efficiencies would be gained.

I am not entirely sure what Apple would gain here. I think they would lose face a bit, given some of their statements about avoiding dependence on third parties. Perhaps, given the sheer size of the Visual Studio installed base (gigantic) allowing even a portion of these, that are interested, an easier way to start Mac/iPhone development is enough of an upside.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #109 of 165
Ballmer on stage at an Apple event? Pretty unlikely, but if true could be good for a laugh.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #110 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

For the iphone OS, yes. but this conference isn't just about the iphone and friends. It's about Mac OS X also. So some presentations will be about that and have nothing to do with the iphone side.

I thought they were only going to have tracks related to iPhone OS this year since there was so much to address in that area and not enough time to focus on the Mac at all.

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post #111 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

I've been thinking for a while that while Apple is dissing Flash, they might very well be preparing to allow Silverlight. Unlike Flash, which is just a buggy ad-delivery device, Silverlight

nope. Because the whole thing isn't about Flash. It is about all non native coding. Flash, Flash like other stuff, Java.

Apple wants it all in original code so that there's less chance that something will break when they do OS updates etc. And because it should result in cleaner, less bloated code. Space is precious on the Iphone devices so bloat is very bad. And since a break can crash a phone that can be very bad for the user

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #112 of 165
Maybe Ballmer is to announce the outcome of an alliance. One where Safari 5.0 uses Bing exclusively and Microsoft uses iAd on Windows 7 Phone Series OS (whatever its called). That would deep six Google.

The other would be for Ballmer and Co. to join Apple and reject Flash on their mobile devices. Maybe Ballmer is going to state a version of SilverLight runs on iPhone OS and is approved by Apple. Bye bye Flash on mobile - we never knew you.
post #113 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

I am not entirely sure what Apple would gain here. I think they would lose face a bit, given some of their statements about avoiding dependence on third parties. Perhaps, given the sheer size of the Visual Studio installed base (gigantic) allowing even a portion of these, that are interested, an easier way to start Mac/iPhone development is enough of an upside.

I think that it's most likely that something has gotten lost in translation with this rumor, assuming it has any basis at all.
post #114 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardyNH View Post

Wouldn't Visual Studio for iPhone be against the terms of use? People can't right apps with Adobe's software so why let crappy apps be created with Visual Studio?

Not at all.

It's not how you create it but the end result. Adobe's software is a no go because they just took the Flash (which is not supported in the OS) and slapped a translation layer over it to make it work.

But if Adobe's software and Microsoft's, actually create top to bottom approved code, it's fine. If one is worried about it, just take out the "made with XXXX" metatag that the software will probably put in and no one is any the wiser

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #115 of 165
If Clang/LLVM is mature enough then Apple can ditch GCC and provide Windows users with a complete Xcode IDE, or at least an extension to Visual Studio so Windows developers can create native Mac apps.
post #116 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnp1 View Post

... Makes one wonder, dId God ever ask Satan to speak at one heavenly event?

Actually, yes.

Satan used to be God's right-hand man before they had a falling out and he started his own concern on a lower floor.
post #117 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

... an alliance ... where Safari 5.0 uses Bing exclusively and Microsoft uses iAd on Windows 7 Phone Series OS (whatever its called). That would deep six Google. ...

Bing exclusivity is unlikely, there would be anti-trust implications at minimum. More likely if they use Bing at all it will just be the default.
post #118 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by troberts View Post

If Clang/LLVM is mature enough then Apple can ditch GCC and provide Windows users with a complete Xcode IDE, or at least an extension to Visual Studio so Windows developers can create native Mac apps.

They will still complain about the tools though. If there is one thing certain with developers it's that they will complain about what you give them no matter what.
post #119 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

nope. Because the whole thing isn't about Flash. It is about all non native coding. Flash, Flash like other stuff, Java.

Apple wants it all in original code so that there's less chance that something will break when they do OS updates etc. And because it should result in cleaner, less bloated code. Space is precious on the Iphone devices so bloat is very bad. And since a break can crash a phone that can be very bad for the user

All true, but nothing is sacred. Apple would put shag carpeting on the back of the iMac if they thought it would sell. I'm not saying it will happen, but I think that Silverlight has advantages over Java and Flash in terms of what it can do for Apple's sales, and so I think it is possible. But yeah... it probably won't happen.
post #120 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


(May, 2020)

Microsoft, having been broken up by the Obama Justice Dept 2013, lies in ruin. Windows has gone from 95% market share to 30%. Apple commands 65% of the operating system market, 50% of the mobile phone market, and 90% of the digital media market. Microsoft is still working on Windows 8.....

(WWDC--June, 2020)

Jobs is standing center stage. He details the battles between M$ and Apple over the past 40 years, finally wrapping up with the famous phrase..."and one more thing..."

Suddenly, Gates walks across the stage. Jobs stands there, then motions for him to come over. He folds his arms. "Now...kneel. Kneel before jobs." Gates signs, and reluctantly bows. "Finally" jobs says. "Take my hand and pledge eternal loyalty." As he does, Jobs grabs a cattle brand with the original Mac smiley logo. He thrusts it into Gates chest. Gates howls in terror, and disintegrates into nothingness. The crowd goes wild.

What a terrible thing to write.

Bill Gates is a fantastic human being. He is doing wonderful things with his foundation. He deserves respect. He certainly has mine.
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