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Foxconn plans 20 percent wage increases as suicides continue - Page 2

post #41 of 89
5/28/10 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

In theory that is true. In practice, automation works best on huge volumes (many, many millions) of identical systems involving only a couple of assembly steps. The iPad and other iDevices are too complicated to be readily automated and even if they were able to do it, the finished machinery would be so specialized that it would have to be scrapped as soon as there was a design change.

Automation works for making bolts or paperclips. It is not yet at the stage where it can easily assemble an entire electronic device.

Come on you know Apple would revolutionize the industry of automated manufacturing! What's more the robots would be gorgeous
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #42 of 89
5/28/10 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

...It creates iPhones and iPads for the Cupertino, Calif., company...

OMG...is english your second language?? They DO NOT CREATE anything, they manufacture products. Unbelievable...these editors are surprisingly poor.

as Bugs Bunny used to say: "What a bunch of moroons"
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post #43 of 89
5/28/10 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post

MONEY IS NOT THE ANSWER AND WILL NOT STOP SUICIDES... FOXCONN needs a change in their working environment and stop running their shops like a military operation.

You do realize that China is a COMMUNIST country? Meanwhile, suicides are on the rise in the US due to our lousy economy and companies don't give a damn. Would love to see any company in the US give their employees a 20% increase in pay to improve morale. Unfortunately, that will NEVER happen in the US.
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post #44 of 89
5/28/10 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post

me as the rest of China and that clears Foxconn of any wrong doing I greatly disagree with. I don't know how many employees they have, but I'm going to guess-timate it's a few hundred or a couple thousand, to compare the suicide rate of maybe 1000-2000 employees to over 1 billion is not fair to me.

400,000 or 800,000 employees, depending on the source.

How does that affect your comparison?
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post #45 of 89
5/28/10 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts_mac View Post

OMG...is english your second language?? They DO NOT CREATE anything, they manufacture products. Unbelievable...these editors are surprisingly poor.

as Bugs Bunny used to say: "What a bunch of moroons"

Hey way to ingratiate yourself with the forum. Nothing like politely pointing out an error. Should we all be as perfect as you'd like
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #46 of 89
5/28/10 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Hey way to ingratiate yourself with the forum. Nothing like politely pointing out an error. Should we all be as perfect as you'd like

oohhh...am i ingratiated now? feels good.

look it..we come here for knowledge, and to read something as poorly written as this article was, well, I can complain if I want. If the powers that be here don't want me to comment any more, then they'll ban me. I could really care less what you think.
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post #47 of 89
5/28/10 at 9:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Facts are such funny things.

The suicide rate at FoxConn is actually lower than the US average.

Are you sure about this? I read that FoxConn has 425,000 employees there. That makes it a little smaller than a city the size of San Jose or even San Francisco; but,I don't think those cities have suicide over 10 suicides a year, do they?
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post #48 of 89
5/28/10 at 9:45am
What critics here continue to conveniently ignore (or deny) is that Foxconn's labor force is bigger than many cities. They employ HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS of workers. Workers of all kinds of life and backgrounds. Workers with the same kind of internal problems as folks everywhere else in the world.

If 10 people out of 400,000+ is so horrible, then why are there suicides here in the U.S. then? I live in San Francisco, right next to the bridge with the highest suicide rate in the world. Why then would people here who do not have the same horrible living conditions as what folks here state is prevelant in Chinese factories choose to end their lives?

Perhaps there are other issues? In addition to low wages, those people could have had mental issues, got dumped by their girlfriend / wife, kids were run over by train and could not deal with it, who knows?

Get all the facts before you shoot out conspiracy theories. Perhaps the next time I hear of a suicide at a company here in San Francisco, I'll demand they close up shop and move operations overseas.
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post #49 of 89
5/28/10 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts_mac View Post

oohhh...am i ingratiated now? feels good.

look it..we come here for knowledge, and to read something as poorly written as this article was, well, I can complain if I want. If the powers that be here don't want me to comment any more, then they'll ban me. I could really care less what you think.

As I am sure you know, it's 'couldn't care less' to mean what you mean. If you 'could care less' then clearly there is still a way to go in your caring, be it more or less. I appreciate there is an on going debate on this very phrase here in this forum and many argue that the language is evolving and degenerative grammar such as this is acceptable if it is in common usage enough. However, that said, as a purist I know you will agree with me

BTW, what does 'look it' mean? You have the better of me there.

p.s. I was only pulling your leg by the way in the first post (as I am here).
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #50 of 89
5/28/10 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie View Post

I think the problem is not that typical Americans aren't willing to work for decent wages, it's that the freaking top guys aren't willing to work for less than $hundreds of millions.

The CEOs of all of these Americans companies are freaking greedy SOBs that don't give a crap about America, suicides in China, or anything else. They only care about themselves...

Please name a period in the history of the world, or economic system, where this has not been the case. Everybody jokes about Ronald Reagan's "trickle down" economic theory but this is exactly how the world always has and always will work. There has never been a political or economic revolution that has changed this basic fact. Even Jesus Christ himself said, "The poor will always be with us" and he was the quintessential communist of all time.
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post #51 of 89
5/28/10 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

I've said this before, time for Apple to take the lead and move production back to the USA.

Hear Hear!
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post #52 of 89
5/28/10 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Again, these reps should just make their presence known that they are there for the welfare and benefit of the employee to be able to come and speak up when conditions warrant like massive overtime or worse, OT with no pay, no days off, no holidays off or whatever is bothering them.
/




My guess is that companies like Apple get the best prices when they leave these things up to the manufacturing company. Apple seems to get good deals, despite having minimum standards in their contracts.

But to have any enforcement in the factory, able to slow production or veto overtime or dictate that no more chemicals be used until the respirator shipment arrives - well, I think that costs money.
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post #53 of 89
5/28/10 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 801 View Post

Stateside production would require much higher degree of automation to occur.

It would be great if Apple partnered with an American industrial robotics company and revolutionized manufacturing in the US like Henry Ford did. My guess, and I hope I'm right, is that we have some of the finest minds in the world at Steve's disposal.
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post #54 of 89
5/28/10 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Hey way to ingratiate yourself with the forum. Nothing like politely pointing out an error. Should we all be as perfect as you'd like

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

As I am sure you know, it's 'couldn't care less' to mean what you mean. If you 'could care less' then clearly there is still a way to go in your caring, be it more or less. I appreciate there is an on going debate on this very phrase here in this forum and many argue that the language is evolving and degenerative grammar such as this is acceptable if it is in common usage enough. However, that said, as a purist I know you will agree with me

BTW, what does 'look it' mean? You have the better of me there.

p.s. I was only pulling your leg by the way in the first post (as I am here).

good one with the "look it"...wow, using old and familiar phrases will come back to haunt you for sure.

I'm fooling around myself, it's a slow Friday and that sentence about "creating" products just irked me, they clearly do not create products, and the writer should have known better.

Furthermore, my "couldn't care less" comment is accurate as I do indeed care about the transfer of knowledge, otherwise I wouldn't have put in the time to comment, be it positive or negative. It's unfortunate, but it's the little mistakes like this that start the rumors: "Oh, Apple didn't create the iPad, their manufacturer did. I read it on Apple Insider!".

It's incumbent upon Apple Insider as a self professed disseminator of knowledge to be accurate in all that they do. We as consumers of that knowledge should be diligent in holding them to that level of professionalism and accuracy. I'm just sayin'.... :-)

Peace
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post #55 of 89
5/28/10 at 10:38am
They don't necessarily have to move manufacturing back to the US. Apple could set up its own manufacturing infrastructure in China or India. This way they keep the profits Foxcon makes and can have better control over manufacturing and labour conditions, etc.
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post #56 of 89
5/28/10 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

(unless 5,000 Chinese committed suicide in the last week).


Assuming a population of 1.4 billion, that would be 3.571428571428571e-8% Chinese citizens committed suicide last week.

My WAG is that more than 5000 committed suicide last week.
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post #57 of 89
5/28/10 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post

I don't know how many employees they have, but I'm going to guess-timate it's a few hundred or a couple thousand, .


400,000 is the number being quoted.

You may want to stop making guesses now.
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post #58 of 89
5/28/10 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts_mac View Post

oohhh...am i ingratiated now? feels good.


Not to be hyper-technical, but actually, you have now been gratiated.
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post #59 of 89
5/28/10 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


BTW, what does 'look it' mean? You have the better of me there.


It is a bastardized contraction of "look at this", usually used prior to stating a conclusion which the speaker mistakes for a fact.
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post #60 of 89
5/28/10 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

It is a bastardized contraction of "look at this", usually used prior to stating a conclusion which the speaker mistakes for a fact.

so if I understand you, you're saying that my statements following my use of "look it" are false. If so, then I guess people who come here are not looking for knowledge? And if Apple Insider folks did not approve of my comments they wouldn't ban me? Whatever Stevie...have a nice day.
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post #61 of 89
5/28/10 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

I've said this before, time for Apple to take the lead and move production back to the USA.

At best this shows ignorance since there will be no sold phones from anyone at the cost increase that would cause.
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post #62 of 89
5/28/10 at 11:31am
You can double the pay and if working conditions are horrible it just doesn't matter.

People really still think that money solves every thing I guess...

(I'm betting it is cheaper to give them a 20% raise than fix the real issues)
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post #63 of 89
5/28/10 at 11:42am
I have to wonder what "valid" means at those wages. and I wonder if Foxconn themselves are going to absorb that 20% labor cost increase. odd too is how Apple is the only US electronics company getting a black eye over the human cost of this facet of globalization. for an interesting look at remotely-located work forces google the Yes Men's PowerPoint presentation from Tampere, Finland.
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post #64 of 89
5/28/10 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts_mac View Post

so if I understand you, you're saying that my statements following my use of "look it" are false. If so, then I guess people who come here are not looking for knowledge? And if Apple Insider folks did not approve of my comments they wouldn't ban me? Whatever Stevie...have a nice day.

He he .. could not resist this ... (Not wanting get between you and Stevie whom I thank for the explanation- btw, what part of the planet is that used in, sounds more UK than US) ... but isn't that a non sequitur? Why would suggesting what you said after the concatenation might not be accurate be related to people coming here for knowledge?

Also ... I am curious, why the repeated references to being banned? It is pretty hard to be banned here for simply having a friendly discussion about the English language. So rest easy.

Oh, nearly forgit ... coming here for knowledge might be a stretch at times .. (Shhhh I didn't say this) but this is a rumor site.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #65 of 89
5/28/10 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

Not to be hyper-technical, but actually, you have now been gratiated.

Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #66 of 89
5/28/10 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

They don't necessarily have to move manufacturing back to the US. Apple could set up its own manufacturing infrastructure in China or India. This way they keep the profits Foxcon makes and can have better control over manufacturing and labour conditions, etc.

True but I think the reasoning behind the suggestion was to bring manufacturing back the US. History shows what happens when a country loses all its manufacturing base, look at the UK! Once a power house of manufacturing. They rely on invisible earnings today from what I can tell, although they do a pretty good job of it. Their ship building, for example, was lost in great part because the could not compete with the Japanese whose Government heavily subsidized their own yards. No doubt there were many other reasons, but sadly the UK lost out. It would seem a sensible and noble objective to me to bring back lost manufacturing or at least create new modern versions with new technologies here in the US. This is not my area of expertise by any stretch of the imagination so I am happy to be educated on the subject.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #67 of 89
5/28/10 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts_mac View Post

so if I understand you, you're saying that my statements ...


No. Not your statements. Usually.
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post #68 of 89
5/28/10 at 12:14pm
Posted elsewhere:

Hate to spread more doom and gloom, but it affects a significant portion of our population.

Studies have shown that Mac users have an overall higher education, income and social standing than their PC brethren.

Studies have also shown that the rate of suicide is significantly higher in folks of lower education, income and social standing.

Obviously, correlating the two relationships would indicate that PC users are significantly more likely to do themselves in. This is particularly true when considering other important contributing indices, i.e., stress, mental depression, constipation and flatulence. Four factors that have been irrefutably evidenced to be significantly higher in the DOS/Windows centric and troller populations.
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post #69 of 89
5/28/10 at 12:17pm
20% hike tells me that they were 17% underpaid for their labor. It means that that 17% used to go to the top management and support their far from communist lifestyles.

I think suicides are one of those problems that really can't be solved by money alone. Instead of paying people more they should just use the money to improve working conditions/ give people more breaks during work time.
--SHEFFmachine out
Da Bears!
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--SHEFFmachine out
Da Bears!
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post #70 of 89
5/28/10 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Come on you know Apple would revolutionize the industry of automated manufacturing! What's more the robots would be gorgeous

didn't steve jobs try this with next before?
probably too ahead of its time back then...
Tofino
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Tofino
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post #71 of 89
5/28/10 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post

Well that'll be great but that also means you'll be paying double or triple for your gadgets. I'm not just talking Apple but others as well.

How can you say that? Apple used to make their products here and minium wage hasn't changed that much for decades. Some polititians argue raising it will send jobs over seas, news flash, things have been made in foreign countries for years.

When the US told Japan no more military after the war, pearl harbor, while we were busy building up our armies Japan had the edge for a long time as they invested in technology. Now they own universal to everything in between and I remember telling my wife 10 years ago when we would go to Target, look at where 90% of this stuff is made. This is really going to hurt us one day. Flash forward to present day and at the same time, American cars under $25,000 compared to a japanies car stunk and fell apart in exactly three years. By design.

Sad, very sad!!
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post #72 of 89
5/28/10 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankie View Post

I think the problem is not that typical Americans aren't willing to work for decent wages, it's that the freaking top guys aren't willing to work for less than $hundreds of millions.

The CEOs of all of these Americans companies are freaking greedy SOBs that don't give a crap about America, suicides in China, or anything else. They only care about themselves...


So true.

No matter what type of media...movies, music, books, photos and web pages

look better and sound better on the Kindle Fire HD than any iPad

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No matter what type of media...movies, music, books, photos and web pages

look better and sound better on the Kindle Fire HD than any iPad

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post #73 of 89
5/28/10 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbobf View Post

Are you sure about this? I read that FoxConn has 425,000 employees there. That makes it a little smaller than a city the size of San Jose or even San Francisco; but,I don't think those cities have suicide over 10 suicides a year, do they?

There are *universities* that have 10 suicides per year.

Suicides by state (2007):
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseac...C1494E2FADB8EA

  Google Maps: ("Directions may be inaccurate, incomplete, dangerous, or prohibited.")

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MC700LL/A MD481LL/A MD644LL/A MD388LL/A

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  Google Maps: ("Directions may be inaccurate, incomplete, dangerous, or prohibited.")

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MC700LL/A MD481LL/A MD644LL/A MD388LL/A

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post #74 of 89
5/28/10 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rind View Post

While I would love to see that happen , What would an iPhone cost if it were made in the US?

Glad that high profile companies are looking into this.
Have to wonder what is so bad that you would kill yourself over a Job

Perhaps they are not killing themselves over a job. There are a lot of chemicals out there that have known side effects such as depression and suicidal thoughts and behaviors. Just look at all the psychiatric drugs and the mass suicide/muders that are going on in the US. Almost every one of those cases involved a kid on drugs or coming off them.

I am sure poor work conditions don't make for a happy life either. I can't imagine the shitty working conditions these people deal with daily. I'm sure there are a lot of factors involved, the working environment is only one small aspect of the overall problem.

I like how the title of this article ties two unrelated issues into one. The readers are lead to believe the 20% raise is related to the suicides, after all it is in the same sentence. As though the raise is an incentive not to commit suicide or some other simple yet idiotic conclusion that I am sure most readers made. I'm not calling most readers simple or idiots, but the author is trying to draw a parallel and hoping to cajole readers in to buying it.

Gotta love mass media and their attempts to manipulate people and the way they think.
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post #75 of 89
5/28/10 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

$131 per month compared to $1160 in the USA at minimum wage? Not gonna happen.

If any production ever moves back here it would be for automated production lines.
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post #76 of 89
5/28/10 at 5:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

400,000 or 800,000 employees, depending on the source.

How does that affect your comparison?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

400,000 is the number being quoted.

You may want to stop making guesses now.

Folks are funny how they take part of a comment and try to say something smart-a about it and ignore everything else said. It doesn't change my comparison, if you read further I also said it's like Wichita vs the entire US. So, 400k vs 1.3 billion or whatver the current number is now is still the same. To me (and you may disagree and that's fine) it does not compare to say Fxcn is a microcosm of the entire China population.

I am free to guess especially when I already made it clear I don't know their employees numbers. Yet, even if 400k that is not the number of workers putting the devices together that number also includes admins, office folks, but yes I was clearly wrong and took a guess.

(silly people)
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post #77 of 89
5/28/10 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Facts are such funny things.

The suicide rate at FoxConn is actually lower than the US average. It is FAR, FAR lower than the average suicide rate in China.

See how a little perspective alters that sense of outrage?

Yes, lets quote statistics gathered from who? Chinese officials? I understand these "facts" may have been published by US or international publications, but do they have people on the ground in China getting actual data? No.

Their economic data is horrible and their manipulation of anything image related is well known (Olympics anyone?)
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post #78 of 89
5/28/10 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post

Well that'll be great but that also means you'll be paying double or triple for your gadgets. I'm not just talking Apple but others as well.

The problem with this sentiment is that it puts the blame for costs of devices on the workers. What people fail to realise is that the prices could be relatively the same by producing in the same country.

No customs duties, no import tax, no cost of shipping, full control over sensitive designs, full control over employees.

Saying that paying employees more to work in the States will increase the cost of the devices is ridiculous and insulting to workers. In fact it would have a better impact on the economy. But people are too retarded to see this fact because the world is run by small minded accountants and people looking for quick profits rather than longer term profits which will actually pay off with bigger dividends.

People ruled by money lack any form of vision. No accountant has ever changed the world for the better.
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post #79 of 89
5/28/10 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbobf View Post

Are you sure about this? I read that FoxConn has 425,000 employees there. That makes it a little smaller than a city the size of San Jose or even San Francisco; but,I don't think those cities have suicide over 10 suicides a year, do they?

Probably not. It might be more like 10 a month in San Francisco or San Jose.

I have to say this comment makes absolutely no sense. Cities have suicides and attempted suicides all the time and yet because one company that is the size of a small city has 10 in one year it's evil and needs to have something done about it? Why isn't something being done in the real cities? They must be more evil if they have higher suicide rates and yet because it's a company they have a moral right to sort this out? What about the mayors of those cities? Don't they have a moral right to look after their constituents?
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post #80 of 89
5/28/10 at 8:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Even Jesus Christ himself said, "The poor will always be with us" and he was the quintessential communist of all time.

Damn... Americans really need to look up communism and socialism before they use these terms.

America's ideas about Communism and Socialism are misguided at best and it's all because of the Cold War.

Capitalism is NOT better than Communism and Socialism and coming from an old Socialist nation (New Zealand) that is moving towards a Capitalist nation I can assure you Capitalism sucks for EVERYONE.

We used to have a thriving nation that worked hard and played harder now we have a nation of wimps that like to suck back on a latte, get paid for doing nothing, and screw each other over. We used to have a nation where we knew our neighbours and we kept our doors unlocked now our homes look like prisons and we look at our neighbours with suspicion.

Thanks America for bringing Capitalism to our nation. You've clearly made it a great place to live... NOT.
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