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Foxconn plans 20 percent wage increases as suicides continue - Page 3

post #81 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

I've said this before, time for Apple to take the lead and move production back to the USA.

Point well taken.Plenty of people that need jobs in the U.S. would be excited & happy to work
for Apple. While AMERICANS would be excited to buy a product thats actually made in the U.S. While the jobs would not be top paying jobs, they still would have a long line of applicants.

GREAT IDEA FOR APPLE.
post #82 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

What the tech world really needs to do is have a US representative for human resources, not in hiring but just to make sure things are going well for the employees. A "The Doctor is In" complaint department where employees can get off their shoulders what is bothering them without fear of being scorned, scoffed, or fired.

If it is true that just about every major computer/electronic maker is having something manufactured by this company, then the stint of the US worker only needs to be a month or so...

One or two month(s) for Apple rep, then Dell's rep, then HP's rep, then Nokia's rep, then Sony rep, etc.

Again, these reps should just make their presence known that they are there for the welfare and benefit of the employee to be able to come and speak up when conditions warrant like massive overtime or worse, OT with no pay, no days off, no holidays off or whatever is bothering them. Even if it is "I live in Communist China!" That might not be changed but at least they can scream out the complaint and have no fear that they will be dragged away by government officials, the police, etc and sent to re-education camps.

This BS of "sending" an investigative team to poke around is BS and accomplishes little. It's harder to pull the wool over ones eyes if they are constantly looking 24 hours a day!

If Foxconn wants to retain the manufacturer contracts, they will be quick to change their ways if the tech world banded together and spoke with one voice. Will it end suicides? Not all, but hopefully reduce them a bit. I know Foxconn is a big company, what, over 800,000 employees and statistically it has less suicides then 800,000 average everyday people in China, but really, what is the suicide rate at IBM? IBM vs similar population size outside IBM of everyday citizens? Or replace IBM with the major corporation of your choice... Ford, American Airlines, etc.

Something needs to happen! The cycle needs to be broken! "Plug the damn hole!"


Excuse me but why is it Foxconn's fault that those big names lean on FoxConn to cut corners or else they'll move their production to some other company? how about these companies come out and say to FoxConn that there are minimum standards required to keep the contract if that results in higher costs for us (the organisations paying for assembly services), then so be it - we're happy to absorb those higher costs.

The pressure on Foxconn to cut corners is immense, it isn't just some sort of cabal of evil men sitting around deciding how to screw the worker - it is ultimately the OEM who demands lower and lower and lower costs - something in the end is going to break under the relentless pressure to cut costs.
post #83 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by macintoshtoffy View Post

Excuse me but why is it Foxconn's fault that those big names lean on FoxConn to cut corners or else they'll move their production to some other company? how about these companies come out and say to FoxConn that there are minimum standards required to keep the contract if that results in higher costs for us (the organisations paying for assembly services), then so be it - we're happy to absorb those higher costs.

The pressure on Foxconn to cut corners is immense, it isn't just some sort of cabal of evil men sitting around deciding how to screw the worker - it is ultimately the OEM who demands lower and lower and lower costs - something in the end is going to break under the relentless pressure to cut costs.

Foxconn can not simply say "the customer made me do it". Ultimately, each company is responsible for obeying the laws and practices in their country. Unfortunately, the standards are so low in China that Foxconn greatly exceeds the country's standards, yet still has lousy working conditions by OUR standards.

You're also ignoring the fact that Apple is one of the few customers who DOES demand better working conditions. A few months ago when the last set of problems came up (underage employees), it was reported that Apple was the only US customer to audit the working conditions and to apply stricter rules to Foxconn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

Damn... Americans really need to look up communism and socialism before they use these terms.

America's ideas about Communism and Socialism are misguided at best and it's all because of the Cold War.

Capitalism is NOT better than Communism and Socialism and coming from an old Socialist nation (New Zealand) that is moving towards a Capitalist nation I can assure you Capitalism sucks for EVERYONE.

We used to have a thriving nation that worked hard and played harder now we have a nation of wimps that like to suck back on a latte, get paid for doing nothing, and screw each other over. We used to have a nation where we knew our neighbours and we kept our doors unlocked now our homes look like prisons and we look at our neighbours with suspicion.

Thanks America for bringing Capitalism to our nation. You've clearly made it a great place to live... NOT.

Seems to me that you're confused about the difference between capitalism and communism. Blaming laziness and crime on capitalism indicates an incredible lack of understanding of society and how it works.

Throughout history, evidence is very, very clear that some level of capitalism has been the driving force for improvement in conditions for everyone. The problem isn't whether capitalism is better than communism (that has been well proven - there are NO successful communist countries. Even China's success has grown in step with their movement toward capitalism). The problem is defining the limits. There are not a lot of people who would argue that completely unfettered capitalism makes any more sense than unfettered communism. Finding the right balance is difficult, but it is very clear from history that some element of capitalism is critical for the long term success of an economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

The problem with this sentiment is that it puts the blame for costs of devices on the workers. What people fail to realise is that the prices could be relatively the same by producing in the same country.

No customs duties, no import tax, no cost of shipping, full control over sensitive designs, full control over employees.

Saying that paying employees more to work in the States will increase the cost of the devices is ridiculous and insulting to workers. In fact it would have a better impact on the economy. But people are too retarded to see this fact because the world is run by small minded accountants and people looking for quick profits rather than longer term profits which will actually pay off with bigger dividends.

You clearly don't have any concept of business costs. I've been involved with a number of businesses that have sourced products from China and other Asian countries (some eastern European countries, as well, and in one case an African country). The savings on the product are immense - even when you factor in duties, shipping, etc. Arguing that business executives aren't bright enough to consider shipping costs and import duties is just plain insulting. You're also ignoring all the other legal and environmental costs to doing business in the US. Obviously, the executives are able to consider the costs - and they have almost universally decided to outsource.

The problem is not one of bad business decisions. As a whole, successful companies make more good decisions than bad ones and when EVERYONE is outsourcing, it's unlikely to be a bad business decision. Rather, the problem is a societal one. We have workplace standards in the U.S. (and in Europe, as well) that do not apply to the rest of the world. We expect manufacturers to meet OSHA and EPA standards. We have regulations on how many hours employees can work. We have millions of attorneys suing everyone in sight for every broken fingernail that occurs in the workplace - or even the THREAT of a broken fingernail. None of those costs apply to Asian countries. So, by our societal decisions, we have stacked the deck and made it nearly obligatory to buy manufactured goods from third world and developing countries.

The fix is not for companies to address the problem (although individual countries can help by choosing to stay here if the economics are only marginally better for outsourcing their products). I have personally been involved in discussions where we could have saved money by outsourcing, but chose not to do so because the savings weren't enough to justify the risk. But more importantly, we need to make decisions AS A SOCIETY to address the problems. We could, for example, require imported products to be manufactured under conditions that would be legal here. We SHOULD HAVE forced China to let their currency float back in the 90's when they didn't have a noose around our necks (our failure to do that is probably one of the worst governmental decisions EVER made). We could insist on floating currency exchange rates even today, but it would be expensive.

Ultimately, though, businesses must do the best they can within the constraints that they face. You can't expect a business to override the mistakes their government makes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidfcp View Post

How can you say that? Apple used to make their products here and minium wage hasn't changed that much for decades. Some polititians argue raising it will send jobs over seas, news flash, things have been made in foreign countries for years.

Well, I remember minimum wage of about $1.65 when I started working, so it has changed quite a bit, but that's not the point.

In the 80's and 90's, a computer cost $4,000. Today it costs $400. A Sony walkman cost $100. You can now buy an MP3 player for $20 or 30. And that's not even factoring in 20 years of inflation.

We suffer from the Walmartization of America (the rest of the world suffers, as well, but we seem to have it the worst). We expect prices to drop constantly and we are driven relentlessly toward the lowest cost product. At one time, it was fairly easy to sell a premium product based on the features or style. It has become horrendously difficult to do so (which makes Apple's success even more impressive).

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

True but I think the reasoning behind the suggestion was to bring manufacturing back the US. History shows what happens when a country loses all its manufacturing base, look at the UK! Once a power house of manufacturing. They rely on invisible earnings today from what I can tell, although they do a pretty good job of it. Their ship building, for example, was lost in great part because the could not compete with the Japanese whose Government heavily subsidized their own yards. No doubt there were many other reasons, but sadly the UK lost out. It would seem a sensible and noble objective to me to bring back lost manufacturing or at least create new modern versions with new technologies here in the US. This is not my area of expertise by any stretch of the imagination so I am happy to be educated on the subject.

There is some truth to that, but the problem is that your proposed solution involves individual businesses. Even the largest companies can not fix the problem by themselves (even ignoring that the largest companies - like Walmart - are doing everything they can to drive us toward a 'price is everything' mentality). The problems must be addressed at a societal level and we have not had a government in place since the 60's that understands these issues.
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post #84 of 89
Video of Foxconn working conditions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bAuukeWnq4
post #85 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesS View Post

Video of Foxconn working conditions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bAuukeWnq4

Where? There were a bunch of still pictures and an overwrought narrator. Not convincing.

I'll tell you what I think is driving the suicides... the settlement money to the other "suiciders" (as ex-Pres. Bush so succinctly called them). That kind of money is like winning the lottery for workers and their families. If you were dirt poor and knew you could take care of your family for the rest of their lives if you killed yourself, you just might do it.

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GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

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post #86 of 89
These suicides is most disturbing. More must be done to help chinese workers. Many are young, from the countryside, unaccustomed to urban life, and their first time away from their families. Added to that is a brutal sweatshop system and a prison like dormatory where you share 10 to a room. These conditions are not unique to Foxconn, they are the norm in china. I'm surprised there are not MORE suicides!

Like the attacks at the schools, these suicides are taking on a copycat mentality. The next incident will be homicide. The workers lash back at their bosses, it will take things to an all new level. Copycat killings should really worry the bosses (ALL BOSSES) to improve working conditions.
post #87 of 89
Here we go again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kung Fu Guy View Post

These suicides is most disturbing. More must be done to help chinese workers. Many are young, from the countryside, unaccustomed to urban life, and their first time away from their families. Added to that is a brutal sweatshop system and a prison like dormatory where you share 10 to a room. These conditions are not unique to Foxconn, they are the norm in china. I'm surprised there are not MORE suicides!

I had a very similar experience when I was younger, except it was called "college".

And we're still waiting for the "brutal sweatshop" evidence. From what I read, a young Chinese could do a lot worse than FoxConn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kung Fu Guy View Post

Like the attacks at the schools, these suicides are taking on a copycat mentality. The next incident will be homicide. The workers lash back at their bosses, it will take things to an all new level. Copycat killings should really worry the bosses (ALL BOSSES) to improve working conditions.

Suicide and homicide are two very different, but equally tragic, acts. Driven by completely different psychological issues or defects. They really don't share much of anything in common, besides the end result of a dead body. Go back and read through this thread; the one thing FoxConn could change today would be to stop paying the families of a suicide...

And, don't lose sight of the fact that the FoxConn campus suicide rate is markedly lower than the Chinese national average.

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post #88 of 89
great thread, i know more from it .
post #89 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

The people didn't kill themselves to get a raise. Money is not likely to solve the problem. Furthermore, suicide happens in every culture in the world. The Foxconn suicide rate is roughly equal to the rate throughout the country, so it's not likely to be related to ANYTHING Foxconn has done.

But in a sense it is because all the reasons for the suicides that happen at Foxconn are almost all work related, yes its suicide rate is low but if the reason for all the suicides has to do with working conditions at Foxconn that would indicate that yes there is a problem on Foxconn's end.
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