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Humanitarian aid flotilla attacked....

post #1 of 392
5/31/10 at 10:18am
Thread Starter 
Israeli military units have attacked a fleet of vessels carrying humanitarian aid for the people of the Gaza strip. The flotilla was in international waters when it was attacked, killing up to 17 and injuring perhaps 30 civilians. Coincidentally, the attack came only a week or so before the 43rd anniversary of the 1967 unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty, a US Navy research ship, which was also in international waters, killing 34 and injuring 170 crew members.

Some questions.
Was this attack justified, and why?
What should the US do in response?
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post #2 of 392
5/31/10 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Some questions.
Was this attack justified, and why?

Yes. The people aboard were Palestinian supporters. Israel must be protected.

Quote:
What should the US do in response?

Give Israel more money. Clearly if this sort of unprovoked terrorist attack against Israel can happen in International Waters then the US is not giving enough.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #3 of 392
5/31/10 at 10:25am
Insane right wing nutters. I haven't had time to read too much about it yet, but this looks diabolical.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #4 of 392
5/31/10 at 10:33am
17 killed? By all the figures i have read I see 9.

Also the incident was not intended to be a battle from what I see until the activists attacked the israeli forces. Also from your article.

Quote:
The six-ship flotilla, carrying 10,000 tonnes of aid, left the coast of Cyprus on Sunday and had been due to arrive in Gaza on Monday. Israel had repeatedly said the boats would not be allowed to reach Gaza.

Israel says its soldiers boarded the lead ship in the early hours but were attacked with axes, knives, bars and at least two guns.

"Unfortunately this group were dead-set on confrontation," Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev told the BBC.

"Live fire was used against our forces. They initiated the violence, that's 100% clear," he said.

Organisers of the flotilla said at least 30 people were wounded in the incident. Israel says 10 of its soldiers were injured, one seriously.

Of course Israel lies at all times and so cannot be trusted to tell the truth here. Not even with video evidence.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #5 of 392
5/31/10 at 10:35am
Apologies for my flippant post above. I was pissed off and anticipating the usual 'Israel right or wrong/who cares' attitude but this issue deserves better.

I'll try again in more serious vein:

Attack was not justified. Was in International Waters and the commandos seized the boat BEFORE any conflict occurred whoever the instigator was. That's piracy and a crime.

Second, the question behind all this is larger: why is Israel starving the people of Gaza to the extent they NEED aid regardless of stopping any getting there. Incidentally, this aid, had it got through represents 70% of the weekly aid delivered to Gaza.

Another point: one can't help but notice that 'outrageous incidents' often occur when Israel wants to avoid something - the Peace Talks tomorrow perhaps.

People may shout 'tin hats' as they are wont but the incidence of such things at favourable times to Israel is very high. And Israel is the only country that can really afford the tactic for two reasons:

1) No-one will do anything regardless of whatever they do

2) They just don't care what anyone thinks anyway and have no concept whatsoever of detente.

Anyway, nothing will happen here though I would suggest the time has come for a boycott as happened with the equally abhorrent Apartheid regime in South Africa.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #6 of 392
5/31/10 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

17 killed? By all the figures i have read I see 9.

Also the incident was not intended to be a battle from what I see until the activists attacked the israeli forces. Also from your article.

They often do this the terrorist protesters...remember Rachel Corrie who attacked a bulldozer?



Quote:
Of course Israel lies at all times and so cannot be trusted to tell the truth here. Not even with video evidence.

Or, conversely, Israel tells the truth the whole time and is incapable of anything else so anyone suggesting otherwise is an anti-semite.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 392
5/31/10 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

They often do this the terrorist protesters...remember Rachel Corrie who attacked a bulldozer?

They dropped an armored vehicle on the boat?

Quote:
Or, conversely, Israel tells the truth the whole time and is incapable of anything else so anyone suggesting otherwise is an anti-semite.

In this case you have already decided they are lying so I guess it does not matter. There is video evidence of the entire encounter. The truth will be seen.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #8 of 392
5/31/10 at 10:44am
Quote:
White House spokesman Bill Burton said the United States "deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy."

Well, at least they're not condemning the flotilla members for forcing the poor defenseless Israelis to fire on them (yet).....
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post #9 of 392
5/31/10 at 10:56am
Listening to the BBC and reporters are saying that they can only have official Israeli versions of this event.

There are Britons on the flotilla but no reporter is allowed to speak to them. In fact everyone there is being held by the Israelis (is that legal?) and all mobile phone traffic is blocked.

As of now, only version available is the Israeli one. Ho hum...sure it's all ok...Israel is democratic and all that...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 392
5/31/10 at 12:15pm
Thread Starter 
Israel's story that "crew members attacked" the IDF runs counter to common sense, especially knowing that the IDF are equipped with state of the art weapons and could sink the entire fleet in minutes. Obviously, such a "final solution" to this issue would have been not in Israel's interest, and the entire mid-east could have erupted in flames. Even though Israel knows it can "do whatever it likes, with immunity and impunity" as regards the West, they are not stupid enough to go the whole hog. they could have done the same in Gaza (ie leveled it 100% and killed every person there).. but that might have promoted some "unfavorable" reactions, even in the US.

Apparently, people on board the boats were "waving white flags". Turkish eyewitness reports have claimed that the IDF "killed some of the flotilla crew members as they slept". Obviously the organizers are pretty pissed right now (who wouldnt be?)... and may be milking this for sympathy.... BUT... the IDF has a track record of carrying out, or enabling massacres... for example the thousands killed at Sabra and Shatila in 1980, in which even an Israeli court of inquiry came to the verdict that the IDF "played a part" in the massacres.

Lets see the evidence on videotape. However, there's one big problem: If the IDF did indeed commit what has been alleged, they would have used their overwhelming firepower to confiscate/destroy any incriminating evidence which could be used in any future court case. The mandate/instructions from the Israeli Government would have probably been:

(1) Go ahead and attack; do whatever it takes.
(2) Make damned sure the world does not see what actually happened.
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #11 of 392
5/31/10 at 1:17pm
Maybe if we all get very angry and demonstrate in the streets outside Israeli embassies and demand our leaders make denunciations, and if we retweet links and make comments on newspaper articles, the Israeli government will care for nineteen seconds what anyone in the world thinks and will think twice before it

oh nothing
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post #12 of 392
5/31/10 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Maybe if we all get very angry and demonstrate in the streets outside Israeli embassies and demand our leaders make denunciations, and if we retweet links and make comments on newspaper articles, the Israeli government will care for nineteen seconds what anyone in the world thinks and will think twice before it

oh nothing

Israel won't think twice. It doesn't care.

The only real choice is to take some form of direct action as our glorious leaders are complicit with this Rogue State.

It's possible without violence or war. Communism fell so did Apartheid...those regimes were ball-park as bad as the Israeli regime.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #13 of 392
5/31/10 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Israel won't think twice. It doesn't care.

The only real choice is to take some form of direct action as our glorious leaders are complicit with this Rogue State.

The Israeli government's already forgotten it happened.
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post #14 of 392
5/31/10 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

The Israeli government's already forgotten it happened.

The video was quite clear. The Israeli commandos were attacked as soon as they set foot aboard. They pushed back, but didn't shoot until one was stabbed and thrown overboard by the mob of terrorists. Seems the Israelis showed great restraint in only shooting 10- 2 of which shot at the commandos. The terrorists clearly wanted a fight, to drive up donations and anti-Israeli sentiment. It worked. The anti-Semites, UN included, have condemned Israel and the Jew haters online can spew their typical rhetoric.
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post #15 of 392
5/31/10 at 3:53pm
Why are we still supporting these guys again?
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post #16 of 392
5/31/10 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

The Israeli government's already forgotten it happened.

The rest of the world clearly hasn't.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/05/31/t...or-israel.html

Quote:
Turkish Anger a Problem for Israel
Ankara's new role as a regional leader is seen as crucial for any Mideast peace deal.

Gee thanks Israel.
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post #17 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

The video was quite clear. The Israeli commandos were attacked as soon as they set foot aboard. They pushed back, but didn't shoot until one was stabbed and thrown overboard by the mob of terrorists. Seems the Israelis showed great restraint in only shooting 10- 2 of which shot at the commandos. The terrorists clearly wanted a fight, to drive up donations and anti-Israeli sentiment. It worked. The anti-Semites, UN included, have condemned Israel and the Jew haters online can spew their typical rhetoric.

Quote:
The U.N. Security Council held an emergency meeting Monday on Israel's deadly commando raid on ships taking humanitarian aid to the blockaded Gaza Strip, with the Palestinians and Arab nations demanding condemnation and an independent investigation.

The Palestinians and Arabs, backed by a number of council members, also called for Israel to lift the blockade on Gaza, immediately release the ships and humanitarian activists, and allow them to deliver their goods.

Assistant Secretary-General Oscar Fernandez-Taranco said in his briefing to the U.N.'s most powerful body that the early morning bloodshed on Monday would have been avoided "if repeated calls on Israel to end the counterproductive and unacceptable blockade of Gaza had been heeded,

Terrorists?
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post #18 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Terrorists?

I am not so ignorant nor naive as to trust the word of Palestinian 'aid' groups, nor the UN. How do you think guns, rockets and bombs make it to Palestine? They are smuggled in by 'aid' groups. Just last year a cache of weapons was found among UN 'relief' supplies. The people on the flotilla were there to cause trouble. They got what they deserved.
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post #19 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Why are we still supporting these guys again?

You can profess your love for the Palestinians and spout your anti-Semitism, but at the end of the day, if you went to Palestine, you'd probably end up on a video getting your head cut off. Same can't be said if you went to Israel.
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post #20 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:32pm
Why wait for what actually happened, lets all jump on the bandwagon for whatever side and call for sanctions, violence, sit-ins, or whatever. Then when the truth comes out one side will be vindicated and the other side will call foul anyhow. I love how the conspiracies already abound.

Suppressing evidence
shot in their sleep
Massacre

Any others feel like throwing stones?

Some footage is already out there:

http://trueslant.com/scotthpayne/201...aza-floatilla/

In the second video he reports that the white flag was raised after the Isreali forces landed on the ship. Not before.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #21 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Why wait for what actually happened, lets all jump on the bandwagon for whatever side and call for sanctions, violence, sit-ins, or whatever. Then when the truth comes out one side will be vindicated and the other side will call foul anyhow. I love how the conspiracies already abound.

Suppressing evidence
shot in their sleep
Massacre

Any others feel like throwing stones?

Some footage is already out there:

http://trueslant.com/scotthpayne/201...aza-floatilla/

In the second video he reports that the white flag was raised after the Isreali forces landed on the ship. Not before.

Right now it looks really damning for Israel. If you had commados boarding a ship you were on wouldn't the tendency be to protect it?

Was the attack on a ship giving humanitarian aid necessary?

Quote:
Why wait for what actually happened, lets all jump on the bandwagon for whatever side and call for sanctions, violence, sit-ins, or whatever. Then when the truth comes out one side will be vindicated and the other side will call foul anyhow

And if the evidence shows it was just a ship giving aid which for right now it seems that was the case?
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post #22 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:44pm
Those against Israel don't want the truth, nor care. Any incident like this is simply another excuse to spread their blind hate.
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post #23 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

You can profess your love for the Palestinians and spout your anti-Semitism, but at the end of the day, if you went to Palestine, you'd probably end up on a video getting your head cut off. Same can't be said if you went to Israel.

There is likely more risk to an American Citizen in Palestine, but it is not that bad. Israel is also riskier than going to other foreign nations such as England or Germany. You don't need to overdo it... \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #24 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

You can profess your love for the Palestinians and spout your anti-Semitism, but at the end of the day, if you went to Palestine, you'd probably end up on a video getting your head cut off. Same can't be said if you went to Israel.

Listen bucko I don't love or hate either side. I see them as people and when one group attacks another and they have to fight back by throwing furniture something seems fishy.

Please don't even attempt to label my different point of view with
Quote:
anti-Semitism

or I will report it.

That's enough of that.

I just don't buy that Israel can do no wrong. That doesn't mean I hate Jews or any other group. If you knew my up bringing you see that my parents wouldn't tolarate any kind of thinking like that. I try to teach my family the same thing. We're all people on this tiny planet and all equal.

Sorry but you're barking up the wrong tree.
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post #25 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Right now it looks really damning for Israel. If you had commados boarding a ship you were on wouldn't the tendency be to protect it?

Actually, I was boarded last summer by the Coast Guard while out on the Bay with a small group. They were doing BUI checks and safety checks to see if we had enough life vests, and let me and my party on our way with little delay.
Oddly enough, shooting at the Coast Guard boarding party, nor stabbing or attacking them with metal poles never crossed our minds. We, of course, weren't up to no good, nor had anything to hide.
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post #26 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Listen bucko I don't love or hate either side. I see them as people and when one group attacks another and they have to fight back by throwing furniture something seems fishy.

Please don't even attempt to label my different point of view with or I will report it.

That's enough of that.

Truth hurts for some, I guess. Put me on ignore.
Odd, your 'different' point of view is always against Israel...
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post #27 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Truth hurts for some, I guess. Put me on ignore.
Odd, your 'different' point of view is always against Israel...

Funny but I believe this is the first time I've posted anything about Israel. If I'm wrong please enlighten me.

Any other attacks like that I'll do more than put you on ignore.
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post #28 of 392
5/31/10 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Actually, I was boarded last summer by the Coast Guard while out on the Bay with a small group. They were doing BUI checks and safety checks to see if we had enough life vests, and let me and my party on our way with little delay.
Oddly enough, shooting at the Coast Guard boarding party, nor stabbing or attacking them with metal poles never crossed our minds. We, of course, weren't up to no good, nor had anything to hide.

Were they commados? Somehow I don't think this was even close to that situation.
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post #29 of 392
5/31/10 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Were they commados?

You mean armed and wearing uniforms? Yes.
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post #30 of 392
5/31/10 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

You mean armed and wearing uniforms? Yes.

No. I mean waving guns in your face during a blockade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando

Quote:
The term commando, in English, means a specific kind of individual soldier or military unit. In contemporary usage, commando usually means elite light infantry and/or special forces units, specialised in amphibious landings, parachuting, rappelling and similar techniques, to conduct and effect attacks. Originally “a commando” was a type of combat unit, as opposed to an individual in that unit. In other languages, commando and kommando denote a “command”, in the sense of a military unit.

In the militaries of most countries, commandos are distinctive in that they specialise in assault on conventional military targets.

So the guys that boarded your boat were like that?

Also come to think of it I did post something about Israel once. When arguing with SDW about the Iraq war his justification for our attack was that Iraq had violated UN resolutions. What he didn't take into account was that many countries had done this and guess who had the worst record for this?

That still doesn't mean I hate them. Just stating a fact. It was the irony that a friend to the US was the worst.
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post #31 of 392
5/31/10 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

No. I mean waving guns in your face during a blockade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando



So the guys that boarded your boat were like that?

You said it yourself- they were attempting to run a blockade and enter territorial waters of a sovereign nation. I imagine if N. Korean vessels showed up off the coast of Virginia or Maryland, a commando unit would board said vessel.
Perhaps you should watch the video and study a little maritime law. They were attacked as they were repelling down. They didn't fight back, nor got a chance to waive guns around. Once shots were fired, the Israelis defended themselves. As I said, they showed great restraint.
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post #32 of 392
5/31/10 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

You said it yourself- they were attempting to run a blockade and enter territorial waters of a sovereign nation. I imagine if N. Korean vessels showed up off the coast of Virginia or Maryland, a commando unit would board said vessel.
Perhaps you should watch the video and study a little maritime law. They were attacked as they were repelling down. They didn't fight back, nor got a chance to waive guns around. Once shots were fired, the Israelis defended themselves. As I said, they showed great restraint.

Sigh! Once again this isn't even close to the same situation.

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...d_the_Gaza_War

They were a ship giving humanitarian aid. Now if they were proven to harbour terrorists that would be different. But so far no one has claimed that.

Given the volatile nature of the region was this act worth it?
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post #33 of 392
5/31/10 at 5:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Sigh! Once again this isn't even close to the same situation.



They were a ship giving humanitarian aid. Now if they were proven to harbour terrorists that would be different. But so far no one has claimed that.

Herein lies your problem- reliance on Wikipedia...
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post #34 of 392
5/31/10 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Herein lies your problem- reliance on Wikipedia...

That's your counter argument?
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post #35 of 392
5/31/10 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

That's your counter argument?

I can't possibly argue with someone whose breath of knowledge is looking up key words on Wiki.
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post #36 of 392
5/31/10 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

I can't possibly argue with someone whose breath of knowledge is looking up key words on Wiki.

Well Steve if Wiki was the only place stating these facts I'd say you've got me there.
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post #37 of 392
5/31/10 at 6:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

I am not so ignorant nor naive as to trust the word of Palestinian 'aid' groups, nor the UN. How do you think guns, rockets and bombs make it to Palestine? They are smuggled in by 'aid' groups. Just last year a cache of weapons was found among UN 'relief' supplies. The people on the flotilla were there to cause trouble. They got what they deserved.

The aid was destined for 1.5 million people who live in abject conditions, because the hardline Israeli leadership has decided thus, just because they can. They hold the world over the Emotional Blackmail Barrel spawned by the Holocaust, and milked every drop from the sympathy well. At some point, people are going to see through this abuse.

Obviously, neither the US nor Israel want peace... many welplaced/influential Americans and Israelis are deeply invested in the conflict and have been for decades.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #38 of 392
5/31/10 at 7:41pm
Obviously, what is obvious to some is not obvious to others.

Obviously, there is more to this story than we will EVER know.

Obviously, we can point fingers at whatever side we want and exploit this incident for political gain.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #39 of 392
5/31/10 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The aid was destined for 1.5 million people who live in abject conditions, because the hardline Israeli leadership has decided thus, just because they can. They hold the world over the Emotional Blackmail Barrel spawned by the Holocaust, and milked every drop from the sympathy well. At some point, people are going to see through this abuse.

Obviously, neither the US nor Israel want peace... many welplaced/influential Americans and Israelis are deeply invested in the conflict and have been for decades.

Funny how no country in the region will take in the Palestinians. In fact, Lebanon has fired on refugee camps. Wonder why that is?
The Palestinians clearly don't want peace. They could have had it years ago. Kidnappings and firing rockets prove they don't. Their 'leaders' use the conflict to stay in power.
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post #40 of 392
5/31/10 at 7:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Obviously, what is obvious to some is not obvious to others.

Obviously, there is more to this story than we will EVER know.

Obviously, we can point fingers at whatever side we want and exploit this incident for political gain.

Obviously very well said.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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