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Humanitarian aid flotilla attacked.... - Page 5

post #161 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

My point was that you make unsupported statements and just expect people to accept them at face value. It doesn't work that way here. No matter how fast or loud you try to make them. They're credible when they're proven. When they are fact.

This : is what is known as a " Stereotype " and a bad one at that.

I provided several links. They didn't fit your opinion, so you dismissed them.
Sadly, the 'stereotype' is true. Some just don't have the courage to admit it.
post #162 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

I provided several links. They didn't fit your opinion, so you dismissed them.
Sadly, the 'stereotype' is true. Some just don't have the courage to admit it.

You supplied links that didn't supply the one thing they should have. Proof.

As far as the almost Ad-hom I've got things to do and don't have time for a conversation that has descended into sophistry.
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post #163 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Wow, a flurry of activity from my two favorite ignores. Anything good?

Keep it that way!
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post #164 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

I know. And what would have happened to the contents of the ships, had the aid landed in Israel? Same for Egypt. It would have been a nice little windfall for local hoods and corrupt customs officials, and the activists would have been lobbed in jail then deported.

Basically, the same as what happened, minus the piracy and terrorism. C'mon people, nobody is *that* naive, surely?


Well, it would have been heavily covered by the media due to the huge amount of international curiosity and would have likely been shipped to Gaza where it was intended to go. Of course the positive possible outcome never occurred to you?
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #165 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

No.
I'll even help you out. Ever hear of the San Remo Manual? No? Here it is-

Section II concerning Blockades is relevant in this case.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ce

As anyone can clearly see, Israel was well within the law.

The first real information anyone has posted on international law in regards to this incident. Nice post.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #166 of 392
Thread Starter 
The purpose of the attack was to kill people and thus deter future aid shipments to Gaza. Some of the killings were apparently "execution style", with people being shot in the forehead.

Story HERE.

extracted:

Quote:
Jonathan Cook reports on the eyewitness account of an Arab member of the Israeli parliament who says that Israeli warships fired on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla “a few minutes before commandoes abseiled from a helicopter directly above them”, and suggested that some unarmed peace activists had been executed while others were deliberately left to bleed to death.

An Arab member of the Israeli parliament who was on board the international flotilla that was attacked on Monday [31 May] as it tried to take humanitarian aid to Gaza accused Israel yesterday [1 June] of intending to kill peace activists as a way to deter future convoys.

Haneen Zoubi said Israeli naval vessels had surrounded the flotilla’s flagship, the Mavi Marmara, and fired on it a few minutes before commandoes abseiled from a helicopter directly above them.

Terrified passengers had been forced off the deck when water was sprayed at them. She said she was not aware of any provocation or resistance by the passengers, who were all unarmed.

She added that within minutes of the raid beginning, three bodies had been brought to the main room on the upper deck in which she and most other passengers were confined. Two had gunshot wounds to the head, in what she suggested had been executions.
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post #167 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

No.
I'll even help you out. Ever hear of the San Remo Manual? No? Here it is-

Section II concerning Blockades is relevant in this case.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ce

As anyone can clearly see, Israel was well within the law.

According to Ben Saul, apparently not. Dr. Saul is Co-Director of the Sydney Centre for International Law at The University of Sydney, a barrister, and a leading international authority on terrorism in international law. Dr Saul teaches the law of armed conflict and has been involved in such cases in The Hague, the Israeli Supreme Court, and in the Balibo coronial inquest:

Quote:
What Israel conveniently omits to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade. The background to that proportionality rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.There is little question that Israels blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms. The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. Israel claims that the blockade is necessary to prevent Hamas from mounting indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

The UNs Goldstone Report found that blockade may even amount to international crimes: Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed
.



Try again.
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post #168 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The purpose of the attack was to kill people and thus deter future aid shipments to Gaza. Some of the killings were apparently "execution style", with people being shot in the forehead.

Story HERE.

extracted:

Nowhere does it say "execution style". It says:

"in what she suggested had been executions"

Very different. You can see that, yes?
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #169 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

According to Ben Saul, apparently not. Dr. Saul is Co-Director of the Sydney Centre for International Law at The University of Sydney, a barrister, and a leading international authority on terrorism in international law. Dr Saul teaches the law of armed conflict and has been involved in such cases in The Hague, the Israeli Supreme Court, and in the Balibo coronial inquest:



Try again.

Also good information, to which I would answer, If this is the case, then prove it and try them.

According to Israel, this is not the case.

However, the evidence should be easy to prove if it is on such a grand scale, should it not? You have one mans postulation on a particular part of the law which is a reasonable assumption. Prove the assumption and get on with it. Israel claims that 10's of thousands of tons of aid reach Gaza regularly. If this is not the case it should be easy to prove.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #170 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

I know. And what would have happened to the contents of the ships, had the aid landed in Israel? Same for Egypt. It would have been a nice little windfall for local hoods and corrupt customs officials...

Now you're just being silly. Aid to Gaza is processed in Israel on a regular basis under the oversight of hundreds of organizations.
This is the first time I've heard of anybody alleging that Israel steals Gazan aid. Have you ever heard of this thing called a customs manifest?

No one ever made the claim beforehand that this was an attempt at an end-run around corrupt officials.
Of course that's because too many NGOs would be quickly able to debunk nonsense like that.

Try again Sammi. The only significant hoods and corrupt officials that enter the equation are inside the aid's destination.
I have friends who've recently been to the Territories, and will testify to that.
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post #171 of 392
Here are some of the items found on the Secular Jihadist Love Boat.
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post #172 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Nowhere does it say "execution style". It says:

"in what she suggested had been executions"

Very different. You can see that, yes?

Semantics, schzemantics. Executions are usually carried out in the style of .... um... executions. Yes? No? They weren't playing golf, or having a sunday afternoon picnic.

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post #173 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Also good information, to which I would answer, If this is the case, then prove it and try them.

According to Israel, this is not the case.

And O.J. Simpson claimed he was innocent as well. Of course Israel's going to say that! They know that they are above the law, so they do what the hell they want, in full knowledge that any attempt to bring them to justice will fail, no matter how goddamned guilty they are.

They were even complicit in the massacre of thousands of Palestinian refugees in the Lebanese camps in 1980. Even an Israeli court of inquiry determined complicity by the state... but was anyone punished for those mass murders?

No. Same old BS.
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post #174 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Here are some of the items found on the Secular Jihadist Love Boat.

Chain of custody proof, if you please.. before quoting from wacko conspiracy blogs.
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post #175 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Chain of custody proof, if you please.. before quoting from wacko conspiracy blogs.

The irony is absolutely beautiful to watch.
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post #176 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

I know. And what would have happened to the contents of the ships, had the aid landed in Israel? Same for Egypt. It would have been a nice little windfall for local hoods and corrupt customs officials, and the activists would have been lobbed in jail then deported.

Basically, the same as what happened, minus the piracy and terrorism. C'mon people, nobody is *that* naive, surely?


Btw, the main reason that the offer of landing was refused is that Israel imposes extremely large and disproportionate taxes on such 'goods' - probably both as a means of discouraging aid (while still being able to say they legitimately allow for it) and as a potential revenue stream.
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post #177 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Btw, the main reason that the offer of landing was refused is that Israel imposes extremely large and disproportionate taxes on such 'goods' - probably both as a means of discouraging aid (while still being able to say they legitimately allow for it) and as a potential revenue stream.

Since Sammi has gone all 'chain of custody', and many others (including yourself) simply dismiss what the videos of the event show clearly, I'm going to have to ask for some absolute proof of these 'extremely large and disproportionate taxes' which Israel supposedly imposes on humanitarian aid.
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post #178 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Btw, the main reason that the offer of landing was refused is that Israel imposes extremely large and disproportionate taxes on such 'goods' - probably both as a means of discouraging aid (while still being able to say they legitimately allow for it) and as a potential revenue stream.

And your good friend the captain of the boat told you this?
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #179 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Semantics, schzemantics. Executions are usually carried out in the style of .... um... executions. Yes? No? They weren't playing golf, or having a sunday afternoon picnic.


They were shot in the head. If a commando were to aim for killing you in a fight I believe te head is a legitimate target. She suggested execution. That does not mean it was one. Sensationalize it all you wish.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #180 of 392
Thread Starter 
The only way to get this sorted out, in theory that is, is to set up a court hearing to determine who broke what international or maritime law, or treaty or whatever else. The practical problem being that the Israeli parties would never show, and any inquiry or subsequent trial would be vetoed/boycotted by the US (and Israel of course) should there be any indication that Israel broke any laws... which according to Dr. Saul ...see above..., they most probably did.

We all know that Israel is above the law, and can do whatever it wants, with complete impunity. It would be interesting to witness the US reaction should Israel nuke Tehran and kill millions: "The Obama Administration deeply regrets the loss of life and urges Israel to show restraint". The typical US reaction, regardless of the circumstances.
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post #181 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Since Sammi has gone all 'chain of custody', and many others (including yourself) simply dismiss what the videos of the event show clearly, I'm going to have to ask for some absolute proof of these 'extremely large and disproportionate taxes' which Israel supposedly imposes on humanitarian aid.

Why? What would you do? Accept any proof?

No.

The fact is there is NOTHING whatsoever that would make you backtrack from your rabid pro-Israeli stance. Nothing.

It really is now just a matter of what happens next. On the one hand we have a rogue State that kills with impunity and a load of apologists who accept the killing, support the killiing and justify the killing.

And on the other side we have people - denigrated, mocked and defamed by the above - who want the killers called to account.

We all know who is on which side and that's enough. I have nothing to prove to the likes of you and moreover, there is nothing that COULD be proved. You don't want proof or truth.

You just want Israel's opponents to lose. By any means. Which is why it is easy to support and justify the deaths.

It's that simple.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #182 of 392
Wow. So you just made up the whole thing about the taxes on humanitarian aid, huh?
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post #183 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Wow. So you just made up the whole thing about the taxes on humanitarian aid, huh?

If it helps you aid your cause by all means think so.

You are building up quite a dossier of 'facts' to protect your world view. BUt one thing troubles me....why not just have the balls to come out and be what you are?

Even the Israelis do that..... you have to respect it.

But you....no, you need all the 'facts' and 'evidence' (ie the usual lies from your favourite wingnut sources) and then you can dismiss anything that doesn't fit your agenda and then the dead....we...poof....they've gone...more dead than dead.

And you can sail on happy that you don't care and your 'conscience' is clear...

Well..I won't help you with that. If you wanted to know about the taxes you'd already know. If I proved it to you you would ignore it.

So...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #184 of 392
You are the one who alleged that the Israelis levy "large and disproportionate taxes" on humanitarian aid. You are the one who said this was the reason that the convoy couldn't go through normal channels, leading to the loss of life.

It falls to you to prove your allegation. As you mentioned earlier in the thread, there are plenty of groups that ship humanitarian aid into Gaza. Surely it won't be hard to find one that references these unfair taxes on humanitarian aid.
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post #185 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

You are the one who alleged that the Israelis levy "large and disproportionate taxes" on humanitarian aid. You are the one who said this was the reason that the convoy couldn't go through normal channels, leading to the loss of life.

It falls to you to prove your allegation. As you mentioned earlier in the thread, there are plenty of groups that ship humanitarian aid into Gaza. Surely it won't be hard to find one that references these unfair taxes on humanitarian aid.

It's not hard. I have the references.

You could find them if you wish. If you do then good...if not then it's because you don't want to - and if that's the case I would be wasting my time showing you wouldn't I?

Because your claim you want to see them is not true. In fact it is a lie. What you want is to refute the claim.

So why should I help you?

Let me be clearer: there are three types of people in this discussion:

1) Lefties, anti-Israeli, radicals whatever.

2) Normal people - who may be Right OR Left but who are intellectually honest. SDW for example.

3) Those who have an agenda of bias transcending political stance- which I don't say 'Right Wingers', wingers can be reasonable and open-minded - and will not under any circumstances consider another view than their own. You for example Frank.

This last crew do not care who gets killed - in fact the more the better probably. Though they do not have the balls to admit it.

So again...why would I help you? We all know you don't care anyway...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #186 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

It would be interesting to witness the US reaction should Israel nuke Tehran and kill millions...

More interesting to gauge what your reaction was to the thousands of rockets fired into Israel - Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel - over the last few years?
post #187 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

More interesting to gauge what your reaction was to the thousands of rockets fired into Israel - Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel - over the last few years?

Thousands?? Did the thousands kill millions?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #188 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Thousands?? Did the thousands kill millions?

sammi jo postured a FICTIONAL idea of an Israel nuke strike on Tehran - I countered with a REAL example of violence against Israel. It is only reality that matters!
post #189 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Thousands?? Did the thousands kill millions?

Your hypocricy is on full display sir.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #190 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Your hypocricy is on full display sir.

Not really...I mean it may be but I don't think your eyesight is equipped to adequately detect it.

I think the real hypocrisy would be for the person (you?) who steps up to the plate to argue that the handful of Israelis killed by the rockets are worth more than the thousands of Palestinians killed in the same timeframe.

But maybe that would not be hypocrisy. Maybe that would be something far worse.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #191 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Don't forget: Iran has not attacked anyone in 275 years. As they are not likely to attack anyone now,

You don't know that. In fact, it really makes no difference how long they've gone without attacking a nation. We're dealing with the present. President Ahmadinejhad is an Islamist, or in the very least..sympathetic to them. The real power is with the TRUE fanatics...the extremist mullahs and ayatollahs. Do you deny their anti-semitism and desire to destroy the US and Israel?

In the very least, President A. has made inflammatory comments wrt to Israel and the holocaust itself. He himself is a holocaust denier. He wraps his beliefs in the more politically correct tones of "researching what really happened." He has openly questioned Israel's right to exist on more than one occasion.

And now they are enriching uranium. They've claimed it's for civilian nuclear power, which of course is absurd, given that Iran has 135 billion barrels of proven oil reserves--the third largest in the world. They continue to defy international agencies and have not cooperated with oversight efforts on their nuclear program. Literally the only reason to believe they are not building a nuclear weapon is because they tell us so.

Quote:


the US/Israel, of course, is trying to spin a bunch of bull-biscuits to make people "think" that Iran is an aggressive nation. Iran just happens to be next on the neocon/Zionist hitlist of mideast nations to attack, then occupy, and subjugate, and strong public support for the next mideast adventure is a political must for the Obama Administration, especially given the lengthy and "less than stellar" performances in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You're just making things up now. Tell me...these Neocons...who are they, specifically?

Quote:

*IF* there is any reason for Iran to arm itself with nukes, then it is for a DETERRENT purpose. They have a neighbor, Israel, armed with up to 400 nuclear weapons (including thermonuclear weapons), a huge stash of chemical and biological weapons, and a state of the "art" military, with the full support of the US... the Obama Adinistration has pledged $30 Billion in military aid to Israel over the next decade. Given these facts, how likely is it for Iran to strike Israel first, knowing that the reaction would obliterate Iran from the map? The probability of Iran attacking Israel is zero!


Israel has nuclear weapons as a deterrent. They are surrounded by nations that want to push them into the sea. Secondly, the probability is much greater than zero. Now.. to a Westerner/secularist, your argument makes perfect sense. That is until one considers that Iran is not being run by secularists. The true power in Iran is held by those who 1) Are extremely anti-semetic, 2) Believe that it is their religious duty to facilitate the return of the 12th Imam and 3) The WAY to facilitate said return involves Armageddon. I wonder how that might be provoked? Read the book of revelations, anyone?

Quote:



The probability of Israel attacking Iran, however, is great, especially if Iran has no nukes. The public are being primed to accept the necessity of a new war, and Iran will be attacked by either Israel, or the US, or jointly, regardless of whether OR NOT they are developing nukes. The excuses will be that "we (the US/Israel had to stop their "aggressive designs" in the region". The US public will swallow the bait, yet again.

Nothing but a conspiracy theory here. You're partying like it's 2005.

Quote:

Both Israel and the US have a long track record for attacking other nations;

That's highly debatable.

Quote:

Iran still remembers very vividly the US coup in 1953 which replaced their Parliamentary democracy led by Mossadegh, with a dictatorship regime led by a thug. Why should Iran trust either Israel or the US?


Agreed. Huge mistake. But it really has nothing to do with the here and now. I don't know that Iran has to "trust" us, but not openly advocating our destruction would be nice.

Quote:


Regarding the Palestinians, your comment smacks of guilt transference: the reality, supported by all the evidence for decades, is that the powers that be in the US, together with the hardliners on the Israeli rightwing, have a morbid pathological hatred towards Palestinians, Arabs and people of the Muslim faith. This is a classic case of setting up a group of hated people as a victim, them blaming the victim for the actions of the oppressor.

That is literally insane-sounding. Insane.

Quote:



Simple. BECAUSE THEY CAN!!!!!. When people of a certain mindset know they know they can get away with something because they are unpoliceable, and have a blank check to do whatever they want, they will do it!


So basically, the Israelis are just war mongering beasts. I mean...they've clearly started all the conflicts in the region since Israel's inception. Gotcha.

Quote:

It's amazing how people forget this aspect of human nature. Why did Israel attack the USS Liberty in 1967, or use overwhelming, disproportionate force in Gaza and Lebanon? Why did the Chinese government order the massacre in Tianenmen Square? Why did the energy industry rip off the people of California to the tune of $30billion in 1999-2000? Why did the Soviet Union roll tanks into Prague in 1968? Why did the US +coalition invade Iraq on the basis of lies in 2003?

Because they could, and they knew they could get away with it. There's the nature of power, in the hands of people who should not have it.

In the event of stumbling across a briefcase stuffed full of used banknotes, on a remote highway... how many people would (a) report it and hand it in to the authorities, or (b) think.. wow... *moolah*!!!

Quite a large percentage.... and because they could, and they knew they could away with it.


You're comparing Israel to communist China? To the Soviets invading Prague? To Enron? You seriously need some perspective. Israel responds to threats. They also pre-empt threats, such as in the case of the 1981 Iraq nuclear reactor. In my judgement they over-react and sometimes employ ineffective and inflammatory policies. Slightly different view than you have.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #192 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You don't know that. In fact, it really makes no difference how long they've gone without attacking a nation. We're dealing with the present. President Ahmadinejhad is an Islamist, or in the very least..sympathetic to them. The real power is with the TRUE fanatics...the extremist mullahs and ayatollahs. Do you deny their anti-semitism and desire to destroy the US and Israel?

Why are they fanatics just because they are Shi'i Muslims? Why does that make them extremist?

Extremist from what? Either they are normative Shi'i or they take it further. Actually they are just normal Twelver Shi'i.

I deny their ant-semitism actually. What happens now?

Quote:
In the very least, President A. has made inflammatory comments wrt to Israel and the holocaust itself. He himself is a holocaust denier. He wraps his beliefs in the more politically correct tones of "researching what really happened." He has openly questioned Israel's right to exist on more than one occasion.

President A has drawn attention to Israel's racism, human rights abuses and general policy of genocide. Well done him.

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And now they are enriching uranium. They've claimed it's for civilian nuclear power, which of course is absurd, given that Iran has 135 billion barrels of proven oil reserves--the third largest in the world. They continue to defy international agencies and have not cooperated with oversight efforts on their nuclear program. Literally the only reason to believe they are not building a nuclear weapon is because they tell us so.

I don't mind if they do actually. Would be the only thing that would potentially save them. I don't think they'll do it in time even if they start now so it's Goodbye Iran sooner or later.

Which is not surprising given the scum driving the agenda.

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You're just making things up now. Tell me...these Neocons...who are they, specifically?

Right. No Neocons. No sir. Just good innocent God-fearing folk down on the farm being threatened by evil muzzlims....



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Israel has nuclear weapons as a deterrent. They are surrounded by nations that want to push them into the sea.

Right...and we can't let that happen right? I know...let's push Iran into the sea instead then everyone's happy! Bingo!

Yet another example...

Israel = Human (must not be pushed into sea and we must kill those we claim are trying to)
Iran + Iraq + Palestine + Turkey + assorted ragheads = Inhuman (who cares what we do to these)

Quote:
Secondly, the probability is much greater than zero. Now.. to a Westerner/secularist, your argument makes perfect sense. That is until one considers that Iran is not being run by secularists. The true power in Iran is held by those who 1) Are extremely anti-semetic,

Laughably, insanely, mind-boggingly wrong.

These antisemites who have total control and want to kill all Jews still seem to be unable to do anything about the thousands of Jews living freely and worshipping in Iranian Synagogues.

Maybe it's because as I've pointed out before (doesn;t seem to sink in):

Khomeini met with the Jewish community upon his return from exile in Paris and issued a ''fatwa'' decreeing that the Jews were to be protected. Similar edicts also protect Iran's tiny Christian minority.

Or maybe there is just no antisemitism.

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At Palestine Square, opposite a mosque called Al-Aqsa, is a synagogue where Jews of this ancient city gather at dawn. Over the entrance is a banner saying: Congratulations on the 30th anniversary of the Islamic Revolution from the Jewish community of Esfahan.

The Jews of Iran remove their shoes, wind leather straps around their arms to attach phylacteries and take their places. Soon the sinuous murmur of Hebrew prayer courses through the cluttered synagogue with its lovely rugs and unhappy plants. Soleiman Sedighpoor, an antiques dealer with a store full of treasures, leads the service from a podium under a chandelier.

I inquired how he felt about the chants of Death to Israel Marg bar Esraeel that punctuate life in Iran.

Let them say Death to Israel, he said. Ive been in this store 43 years and never had a problem. Ive visited my relatives in Israel, but when I see something like the attack on Gaza, I demonstrate, too, as an Iranian.

Still a mystery hovers over Irans Jews. Its important to decide whats more significant: the annihilationist anti-Israel ranting, the Holocaust denial and other Iranian provocations or the fact of a Jewish community living, working and worshipping in relative tranquillity.

Perhaps I have a bias toward facts over words, but I say the reality of Iranian civility toward Jews tells us more about Iran its sophistication and culture than all the inflammatory rhetoric.

That may be because Im a Jew and have seldom been treated with such consistent warmth as in Iran. Or perhaps I was impressed that the fury over Gaza, trumpeted on posters and Iranian TV, never spilled over into insults or violence toward Jews. Or perhaps its because Im convinced the Mad Mullah caricature of Iran and likening of any compromise with it to Munich 1938 a position popular in some American Jewish circles is misleading and dangerous.

I asked Morris Motamed, once the Jewish member of the Majlis, if he felt he was used, an Iranian quisling. I dont, he replied. In fact I feel deep tolerance here toward Jews. He said Death to Israel chants bother him, but went on to criticize the double standards that allow Israel, Pakistan and India to have a nuclear bomb, but not Iran.

Source

Or maybe SDW knows better than the Jews in the Synagogues there, better then the (Jewish) journalist who wrote it, better then all the people who have visited Iran so many times.

Yes, that must be it. They're all lying. Or wrong. Or stupid.

Quote:
2) Believe that it is their religious duty to facilitate the return of the 12th Imam and 3) The WAY to facilitate said return involves Armageddon.

I happen to have a postgraduate degree impinging on the area of Shi'i conceptions of the Occultation of the Hidden Iman and I fail to see any legitimate source for this contention.

Could you please point to the relevant Shi'i authorities from whence you derive this idea? Or did you read it on some wingnut blog?

I believe I have said before that Shi'ism is essentially fatalistic and revolves to a certain extent around a belief that fate is mapped out...

Could you please explain how a philosophical system can square the circle of pre-destiny and 'making something happen' by taking certain actions? And where in the Qur'an would you derive this position from?

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I wonder how that might be provoked? Read the book of revelations, anyone?

Ooh ooh me..me!! I've read it!!! Can I answer??? Please?? Umm...what's the question again?? You're drifting......

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Nothing but a conspiracy theory here. You're partying like it's 2005.

Umm...ok....

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That's highly debatable.

Debate it then...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #193 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Khomeini met with the Jewish community upon his return from exile in Paris and issued a ''fatwa'' decreeing that the Jews were to be protected.

Perhaps "Khomeini" can issue a "fatwa" decree against he who is calling for their extermination; namely the political head of the nation, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and his ever frequent "death to Israel" rhetoric...

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Similar edicts also protect Iran's tiny Christian minority.

Why on earth would Khomeini need to issue an edict to protect a minority religion and its practitioners in Iran if Islam is not inherently violent toward anything/anyone outside of its sphere of advocacy? Did Khomeini also issue similar edicts for other minority faiths or just Christianity and Judaism? Asked another way, why would Muslim practitioners need to be told by Grand Ayatollah Khomeini via an edict to protect minority faiths and their practitioners when the Holy Quran advances it plainly?
post #194 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Perhaps "Khomeini" can issue a "fatwa" decree against he who is calling for their extermination; namely the political head of the nation, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and his ever frequent "death to Israel" rhetoric...

Err....he's dead...



Quote:
Why on earth would Khomeini need to issue an edict to protect a minority religion and its practitioners in Iran if Islam is not inherently violent toward anything/anyone outside of its sphere of advocacy? Did Khomeini also issue similar edicts for other minority faiths or just Christianity and Judaism? Asked another way, why would Muslim practitioners need to be told by Grand Ayatollah Khomeini via an edict to protect minority faiths and their practitioners when the Holy Quran advances it plainly?

Because although the Qur'an does protect other faiths - not just Judaism and Christianity btw - that does not mean that every Muslim knows or follows what is in the Qur'an.

I suppose a similar edict against murder might have helped during the Spanish Inquisition even though the prohibition was already in the Bible.

Might help now actually even.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #195 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's not hard. I have the references...

...So again...why would I help you? We all know you don't care anyway...

How pathetic. You make an allegation about Israel overtaxing humanitarian aid and then throw nothing but insults around when asked for proof.

I think we all know that if you really had references to make your point, you would have posted them.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #196 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Not really...I mean it may be but I don't think your eyesight is equipped to adequately detect it.

I think the real hypocrisy would be for the person (you?) who steps up to the plate to argue that the handful of Israelis killed by the rockets are worth more than the thousands of Palestinians killed in the same timeframe.

But maybe that would not be hypocrisy. Maybe that would be something far worse.

No the hypocrisy would be trying to compare a fictional possibility with an actuality and say that the fiction was actually worse and defend that position. Then turn around and continue the argument about another actuality that is equally disturbing and call it worse than the original actuality that had occurred.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #197 of 392
A bullet in the chest and I couldn't care less,

Another bullet in my head and I'm not that bothered really,

Two bullets more in my head and I'm still good to go,

Three bullets more in my head and meh,

But four more bullets, hmmm that's one too many for me.

"The Cihan news agency reported that Mr. Dogan had one bullet in the chest and four bullets fired into his head from close range."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/wo...otilla.html?hp
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #198 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

A bullet in the chest and I couldn't care less,

Another bullet in my head and I'm not that bothered really,

Two bullets more in my head and I'm still good to go,

Three bullets more in my head and meh,

But four more bullets, hmmm that's one too many for me.

"The Cihan news agency reported that Mr. Dogan had one bullet in the chest and four bullets fired into his head from close range."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/wo...otilla.html?hp

I guess jewish soldiers had to make sure that if they shoot someone they are not just dead but VERY VERY dead.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #199 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

I guess jewish soldiers had to make sure that if they shoot someone they are not just dead but VERY VERY dead.

And before you get all gooey and sentimental remember this - there is overwhelming evidence that these terrorists had wooden sticks

FACT
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #200 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

According to Ben Saul, apparently not. Dr. Saul is Co-Director of the Sydney Centre for International Law at The University of Sydney, a barrister, and a leading international authority on terrorism in international law. Dr Saul teaches the law of armed conflict and has been involved in such cases in The Hague, the Israeli Supreme Court, and in the Balibo coronial inquest:



Try again.

Israel and Egypt have offered to offload, inspect, transport and deliver humanitarian shipments, therefore making your opinion - well, not really yours, since you simply found someone's opinion, moot.
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