Humanitarian aid flotilla attacked.... - Page 2

Originally Posted by segovius

Apologies for my flippant post above. I was pissed off and anticipating the usual 'Israel right or wrong/who cares' attitude but this issue deserves better.

I'll try again in more serious vein:

Attack was not justified. Was in International Waters and the commandos seized the boat BEFORE any conflict occurred whoever the instigator was. That's piracy and a crime.

Second, the question behind all this is larger: why is Israel starving the people of Gaza to the extent they NEED aid regardless of stopping any getting there. Incidentally, this aid, had it got through represents 70% of the weekly aid delivered to Gaza.

Originally Posted by FloorJack

Last time I checked Gaza has more than one border. Why aren't you asking that question of Egypt? Where were you when Egypt acted against Gaza?

Originally Posted by jimmac

No. I mean waving guns in your face during a blockade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando



So the guys that boarded your boat were like that?

Also come to think of it I did post something about Israel once. When arguing with SDW about the Iraq war his justification for our attack was that Iraq had violated UN sanctions. What he didn't take into account was that many countries had done this and guess who had the worst record for this?

That still doesn't mean I hate them. Just stating a fact. It was the irony that a friend to the US was the worst.

Originally Posted by segovius

Egypt is merely a lackey of the West along with all the other scumbags like Saudi and Jordan.

It's quite a simple equation actually: suck the West's Johnson and get some financial benefits and a degree of safety - refuse and be branded 'terrorist' and fair game for the US/Israel hegemony who will have carte blanche to come at you in a manner of their choosing with no recourse for you.

So I don't have to ask that question of Egypt because it goes without saying Egypt is complicit and a de facto accomplice to Israel's crimes.

It's like talking about Mussolini or Franco when Hitler is centre-stage...what's the point?

Originally Posted by dcsimages

One of the main points being missed here is that the IDF boarded the boats in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. Even if the boats were stocked stem to stern with bombs, guns and ammo, the Israelis had no right, under international law, to board the vessels until they entered Israeli waters.

The United Nations Security Council on Tuesday condemned acts which resulted in the loss of civilian lives on ships carrying pro-Palestinian campaigners and aid to Gaza, and called for an impartial investigation into Israel's deadly raid.

While the Palestinians and Turks insisted that the activists on the ships were delivering aid to impoverished Gazans suffering under a three-year Israeli embargo, Israel's deputy U.N. ambassador Daniel Carmon said "this flotilla was anything but a humanitarian mission."

Some activists have "terrorist history" and its organizers support radical Islamic groups such as Hamas, which controls Gaza and refuses to recognize Israel's existence, he said

Originally Posted by SDW2001

People that are anti-Israel will remain so after this. People that are pro-Israel will remain so after this. Nothing changes. As for me, it seems clear that the commandos were attacked. That won't stop the condemnations, though.

Originally Posted by segovius

In other news - reports are coming on that King Herod has executed the first-born male sons throughout the kingdom in a savage and bloody massacre.

Details are sketchy but out correspondent on-the-ground-on-a-different-continent 2000 miles away from the incident said "this will change nothing - the anti-Herod cappuccino suckers will still peddle their hate - it seems clear to me that these babies threw themselves at the swords of the Herodian army in an evil and chilling co-ordinated unprovoked terrorist attack."

And now a word from our sponsors.....

Originally Posted by NoahJ

Lame analogy. VERY lame. You are really slipping.

People that are anti-Israel will remain so after this. People that are pro-Israel will remain so after this.

Originally Posted by Frank777

Secure in the knowledge of course, that their ignorant, Israel-hating leftist friends won't call them on it.

Originally Posted by segovius

What is better - "hating" a rabid rogue state that commits atrocities NOW (not last century) or "loving" a rabid rogue state that commits atrocities NOW (not last century)?

You don't have to answer. It's rhetorical. We know the answer.

Originally Posted by Frank777

Funny how pointing out convenient alliances with evildoers suddenly becomes "dangerous territory" for discussion, once the target isn't Israel.

You don't seem concerned at all when you decry America's 'hardline pro-Israel anti-Muslim hate lobby' in posts here on AI.

Originally Posted by segovius

Evildoers

What does it actually mean? We know what it doesn't mean....killing Palestinians, blockading and starving territories and murdering people in international waters then lying about it..

Got that...still...makes you wonder what people like Frank think is. Being Muslim probably.

Originally Posted by segovius

In other news - reports are coming on that King Herod has executed the first-born male sons throughout the kingdom in a savage and bloody massacre.

Details are sketchy but out correspondent on-the-ground-on-a-different-continent 2000 miles away from the incident said "this will change nothing - the anti-Herod cappuccino suckers will still peddle their hate - it seems clear to me that these babies threw themselves at the swords of the Herodian army in an evil and chilling co-ordinated unprovoked terrorist attack."

And now a word from our sponsors.....

Originally Posted by Frank777

Evildoers also tend to do things like kill Kurds and Armenians, unexpectedly blow up ships with torpedos, roll over democracy with tanks, deny women and children education, enslave fellow citizens, kill opposing politicians, take over unfriendly newspapers and tv stations and more.

The Left just pretends not to notice. But let's all gang up on the Jews, who have no good reasons for wanting to protect themselves, and no psychological scars from past villainy that explains many of their actions.

Originally Posted by SDW2001

Should have expected as much from you. An absurd analogy, followed by an insult pertaining to what part of the world I'm from. Almost anything I say at this point puts me in position to defend Israel, which I don't need or want to do.

All I can say is that the facts appear to indicate the commandos were attacked. I'm not expressing an opinion as to whether the raid was appropriate or necessary, or even whether the commandos over-reacted. If someone can show evidence that they were not attacked, that's fine.

Originally Posted by segovius

How far back do you want to go then? Spanish Inquisition....oh wait...that was Holy...ok...we can discuss events of the beginning of last century alongside the atrocities of today

Is that REALLY what you think? People getting killed RIGHT NOW and all you can do is echo some playground chant like 'well what about them...they did so and so a hundred years ago.....'

Is it that you have no humanity or compassion for people killed today - or is it just that they deserve it in your eyes?

Originally Posted by Frank777

There are plenty of people getting killed in the world RIGHT NOW. Many of the regimes responsible will never be attacked in a thread by the usual suspects here.

But nine people who went looking for a confrontation with the Israeli military died yesterday, and the Left starts to lecture about humanity and compassion. They have neither.

Originally Posted by segovius

Maybe there's not time. Maybe it does not come up.

I can only speak for myself and I would never do what you and others of like-mind do here and that's defend the killers.

Originally Posted by Frank777

In my 5 posts in this thread, I've chastised Turkey for hypocrisy, and the Left doubly so for constantly picking on Israel while leaving other similar regimes untouched. Please show the post where I have defended the specific actions of soldiers who killed the nine protestors on the flotilla.

Otherwise, that just looks like a stupid personal attack.

Originally Posted by segovius

Turks were attacked and killed.

Your response to justified outrage about it is to start castigating Turks for the Armenian Massacre.

That's all you need to know. For him who has ears to hear and all that.

Originally Posted by segovius

The analogy is not with the event but rather the level of belief required to sustain the "Israel right or wrong" mentality. Or should we say the "Israel: right" mentality.

I think SDW said it best himself:

You can understand that people who are anti-Israel are so BECAUSE of incidents like this - and there are a huge back-catalogue of them. No other reason.

What is not so understandable is the attitude - SDW's own attitude - that no matter what Israel does or how many people it kills:

People that are pro-Israel will remain so after this.

It's quite frightening. There really is NOTHING they could potentially do that would evoke censure.

Originally Posted by Frank777

So pointing out blatant hypocrisy of the Turks means that I support killing protestors?

Like I said, cheap personal attack.

Originally Posted by NoahJ

People that are anti-Israel will remain so after this.

It is similarly easy to see which side you fall on here.

Are all the facts out? I don't think so, it will be at least a couple weeks before they get the stories straight.

From what I can tell, a flotilla of ships told Israel, we are going to run your blockade.

Israel told them, well in advance and with no uncertain terms. No you will not.

They chose to run it anyway.

Israel stopped the ships before they entered Israeli waters in order to turn them around, and possibly to search for supplies other than humanitarian aid.

The aid workers and volunteers, who knew that they would be boarded by Israeli troops, attacked the troops before they had even landed on the ships and had a chance to do what they had intended to do, thereby setting the tone for the remainder of the conflict.

These are the facts that are known right now though video evidence.

Until more facts are known this is what there is to comment on. When you have more facts, present them. Anything else is your bias showing.

Originally Posted by segovius

More people should be anti-Israel.

The argument is really not whether anyone actually is but whether they actually should be. Many States need opposing. I contend Israel is one of them.

What I don't understand is why their actions - which would be enough to cause opposition were they committed by anyone else - are defended by some. Or actually I do understand it in many cases.



Yep. Proud of it too. Proud to oppose all such brutal regimes: Israel, Zimbabwe, China, Saudi...no probs there.



Again...that's exactly the point - Israel is in control of the facts so no...the facts are not out. My point exactly.



Yes. very good thing. Good there are humanitarians not prepared to sit back and watch Israel starving a whole people into non-existence.



Of course. What else would they do? Say "oops sorry we've been very naughty"? If they were capable of that they would not commit the crimes in the first place and the flotilla would not be necessary.



Knowing that brutal death might await them and the world would look away. Heroes.



Right. Commandos abseiling in at 4am tooled up and screaming and firing. Right.

Also out of their own waters it is a crime.



Right. A load of peaceniks and - what do you call them? Surrender-monkeys? Decide to take on the IDF with some planks of wood. Right.



Not so. These are the facts as known solely from Israeli sources.



We have been commenting on them. And I have confessed my bias...which is how I also recognize yours btw....

Originally Posted by NoahJ

I am biased to facts at this point. You are making up facts in the absence of evidence you can accept.

Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo

I think it would be helpful if you'd say specifically which facts he's "making up."

Then we can really tell.

Commandos abseiling in at 4am tooled up and screaming and firing.

Originally Posted by NoahJ

Anything not presented in the facts that are available currently is made up or embellished.

They did not come in screaming and firing, that occurred after they took some initial beatings and stabbings and a pistol was fired at them. Those are the facts as presented so far.

Norman Paech, a former member of Germany's Left Party, was aboard the Mavi Marmara, the largest of the six ships in the convoy.

Speaking at a news conference in Berlin, he said the ship was surrounded by small Israeli assault boats on Monday morning at about 0430 local time.

"Moments later, we heard detonations and then soldiers from helicopters above us dropped down on board.

"The soldiers were all masked, carrying big guns and were extremely brutal."

Activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, was among six Greeks who returned home on Tuesday.

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," he said.

"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

Mr Gielalis said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye.

Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard the Free Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

"The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting.

Mr Papadokostopoulos said that aboard the other boats, commandos beat activists but nobody was gravely injured. He said no one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid.

"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he said.