or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Humanitarian aid flotilla attacked....
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Humanitarian aid flotilla attacked.... - Page 2

post #41 of 392
One of the main points being missed here is that the IDF boarded the boats in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. Even if the boats were stocked stem to stern with bombs, guns and ammo, the Israelis had no right, under international law, to board the vessels until they entered Israeli waters.
post #42 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsimages View Post

One of the main points being missed here is that the IDF boarded the boats in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. Even if the boats were stocked stem to stern with bombs, guns and ammo, the Israelis had no right, under international law, to board the vessels until they entered Israeli waters.

And, as I am sure you noticed, many of the articles in the blatantly pro-Israeli/anti-Arab/anti-Palestinian US corporate media have not mentioned that all-important aspect of the attack in their articles. What's new?

The death toll according to Turkish media stands at 19 or 20, and 60 have been injured. This was not only an act of international terrorism but piracy as well.

Imagine the reaction in the US media if it was Hamas which had pulled off a stunt like this? We'd be back into "all terrorism, all the time" mode.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #43 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

Funny how no country in the region will take in the Palestinians. In fact, Lebanon has fired on refugee camps. Wonder why that is?

The reasons for that have far less to do with intolerance of the Palestinian people by their arab neighbors than pressure from the west, re. trade, international aid, and so on

Quote:
The Palestinians clearly don't want peace.

Granted, there are some people in the Palestinian community over there who are benefitting from the conflict... ie local arms dealers. But thats about it. 99.9% of the Palestinian population, just like any population on earth, want a decent, peaceful existence, minus the heavy manners. Everyone there is going through hell on Earth, courtesy of the IDF and their US sponsors.

Quote:
They could have had it years ago.

Not a chance. Did you see what the geographic outline of the territory that was offered to them?
Absurd.. the planned land area looked like a swiss cheese with zero territorial integrity, in which Israel controlled all movement between the disparate parts. Life would have been untenable. It was 100% unacceptable.

Quote:
Kidnappings and firing rockets prove they don't. Their 'leaders' use the conflict to stay in power.

And the forced evictions, the destruction of Palestinian villages, homes, farms and orchards at the barrel of a gun... a practice which has been ongoing for decades, is "totally acceptable"??? If a bunch of heavily armed thugs broke into your house, beat up your kids, raped your wife, set fire to your home ... just because they want your land....I think YOU would be royally pissed, and you would probably take up arms against your oppressors. Just like the Iraqi insurgents... or the Afghan Mujahadeen against the Soviets.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #44 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Apologies for my flippant post above. I was pissed off and anticipating the usual 'Israel right or wrong/who cares' attitude but this issue deserves better.

I'll try again in more serious vein:

Attack was not justified. Was in International Waters and the commandos seized the boat BEFORE any conflict occurred whoever the instigator was. That's piracy and a crime.

Second, the question behind all this is larger: why is Israel starving the people of Gaza to the extent they NEED aid regardless of stopping any getting there. Incidentally, this aid, had it got through represents 70% of the weekly aid delivered to Gaza.

Last time I checked Gaza has more than one border. Why aren't you asking that question of Egypt? Where were you when Egypt acted against Gaza?
post #45 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Last time I checked Gaza has more than one border. Why aren't you asking that question of Egypt? Where were you when Egypt acted against Gaza?

Egypt is merely a lackey of the West along with all the other scumbags like Saudi and Jordan.

It's quite a simple equation actually: suck the West's Johnson and get some financial benefits and a degree of safety - refuse and be branded 'terrorist' and fair game for the US/Israel hegemony who will have carte blanche to come at you in a manner of their choosing with no recourse for you.

So I don't have to ask that question of Egypt because it goes without saying Egypt is complicit and a de facto accomplice to Israel's crimes.

It's like talking about Mussolini or Franco when Hitler is centre-stage...what's the point?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #46 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

No. I mean waving guns in your face during a blockade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando



So the guys that boarded your boat were like that?

Also come to think of it I did post something about Israel once. When arguing with SDW about the Iraq war his justification for our attack was that Iraq had violated UN sanctions. What he didn't take into account was that many countries had done this and guess who had the worst record for this?

That still doesn't mean I hate them. Just stating a fact. It was the irony that a friend to the US was the worst.

Yes, but were they going commando?
post #47 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Egypt is merely a lackey of the West along with all the other scumbags like Saudi and Jordan.

It's quite a simple equation actually: suck the West's Johnson and get some financial benefits and a degree of safety - refuse and be branded 'terrorist' and fair game for the US/Israel hegemony who will have carte blanche to come at you in a manner of their choosing with no recourse for you.

So I don't have to ask that question of Egypt because it goes without saying Egypt is complicit and a de facto accomplice to Israel's crimes.

It's like talking about Mussolini or Franco when Hitler is centre-stage...what's the point?

"Israel" control of the world rules all!
post #48 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcsimages View Post

One of the main points being missed here is that the IDF boarded the boats in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. Even if the boats were stocked stem to stern with bombs, guns and ammo, the Israelis had no right, under international law, to board the vessels until they entered Israeli waters.

Israel has the responsibility to defend itself - this terror-financed flotilla should have been stopped and searched and returned!

The Terror Finance Flotilla
The Weekly Standard
BY Jonathan Schanzer
May 31, 2010
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...nance-flotilla
The convoy of ships allegedly trying to bring aid to the Gaza Strip was organized by a group belonging to an officially designated terrorist organization.
post #49 of 392
Well here's some news on the subject.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37442104...ideastn_africa

Quote:
U.N. condemns Gaza ship raid deaths
Security Council stops short of denouncing Israel


Quote:
The United Nations Security Council on Tuesday condemned acts which resulted in the loss of civilian lives on ships carrying pro-Palestinian campaigners and aid to Gaza, and called for an impartial investigation into Israel's deadly raid.

And as far as terrorists being involved here's what we do know at this time :

Quote:
While the Palestinians and Turks insisted that the activists on the ships were delivering aid to impoverished Gazans suffering under a three-year Israeli embargo, Israel's deputy U.N. ambassador Daniel Carmon said "this flotilla was anything but a humanitarian mission."

Some activists have "terrorist history" and its organizers support radical Islamic groups such as Hamas, which controls Gaza and refuses to recognize Israel's existence, he said

So there's still no claim of knowledge of terrorists on board.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #50 of 392
People that are anti-Israel will remain so after this. People that are pro-Israel will remain so after this. Nothing changes. As for me, it seems clear that the commandos were attacked. That won't stop the condemnations, though.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #51 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

People that are anti-Israel will remain so after this. People that are pro-Israel will remain so after this. Nothing changes. As for me, it seems clear that the commandos were attacked. That won't stop the condemnations, though.

In other news - reports are coming on that King Herod has executed the first-born male sons throughout the kingdom in a savage and bloody massacre.

Details are sketchy but out correspondent on-the-ground-on-a-different-continent 2000 miles away from the incident said "this will change nothing - the anti-Herod cappuccino suckers will still peddle their hate - it seems clear to me that these babies threw themselves at the swords of the Herodian army in an evil and chilling co-ordinated unprovoked terrorist attack."

And now a word from our sponsors.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #52 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

In other news - reports are coming on that King Herod has executed the first-born male sons throughout the kingdom in a savage and bloody massacre.

Details are sketchy but out correspondent on-the-ground-on-a-different-continent 2000 miles away from the incident said "this will change nothing - the anti-Herod cappuccino suckers will still peddle their hate - it seems clear to me that these babies threw themselves at the swords of the Herodian army in an evil and chilling co-ordinated unprovoked terrorist attack."

And now a word from our sponsors.....

Lame analogy. VERY lame. You are really slipping.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #53 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Lame analogy. VERY lame. You are really slipping.

The analogy is not with the event but rather the level of belief required to sustain the "Israel right or wrong" mentality. Or should we say the "Israel: right" mentality.

I think SDW said it best himself:

Quote:
People that are anti-Israel will remain so after this. People that are pro-Israel will remain so after this.

You can understand that people who are anti-Israel are so BECAUSE of incidents like this - and there are a huge back-catalogue of them. No other reason.

What is not so understandable is the attitude - SDW's own attitude - that no matter what Israel does or how many people it kills:

People that are pro-Israel will remain so after this.

It's quite frightening. There really is NOTHING they could potentially do that would evoke censure.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #54 of 392
Turkish PM condems 'bloody massacre'

Does Turkey have absolutely no shame?

The perpetrators of the Armenian Massacres [which they still refuse to own up to] have the unmitigated gall to help manufacture a one-day coast guard incident, and then immediately start tossing around the M-word.

Secure in the knowledge of course, that their ignorant, Israel-hating leftist friends won't call them on it.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #55 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Secure in the knowledge of course, that their ignorant, Israel-hating leftist friends won't call them on it.

What is better - "hating" a rabid rogue state that commits atrocities NOW (not last century) or "loving" a rabid rogue state that commits atrocities NOW (not last century)?

You don't have to answer. It's rhetorical. We know the answer.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #56 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

What is better - "hating" a rabid rogue state that commits atrocities NOW (not last century) or "loving" a rabid rogue state that commits atrocities NOW (not last century)?

You don't have to answer. It's rhetorical. We know the answer.

Actually, it would be better just to be consistent. The Left once saw that and condemned Rumsfeld on this board for shaking hands with Hussain.
Now, they're willing to shake hands with rogue states as long as they fight against Israel.

At least Canada has tried to do its part to censure what Turkey did.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #57 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Israel has the responsibility to defend itself - this terror-financed flotilla should have been stopped and searched and returned!

The Terror Finance Flotilla
The Weekly Standard
BY Jonathan Schanzer
May 31, 2010
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...nance-flotilla
The convoy of ships allegedly trying to bring aid to the Gaza Strip was organized by a group belonging to an officially designated terrorist organization.

About the author, Jonathan Schanzer:

Quote:
Mr. Schanzer got his start in the policy world as a research fellow at the Middle East Forum, a Philadelphia-based think tank headed by scholar Daniel Pipes.

Daniel Pipes. Enough said. And in the Weekly Standard... . How about the National Enquirer, or the late lamented Weekly World News?

Schanzer is just another hate-monger wrapped in intellectual camouflage and glorious militarism.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #58 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Actually, it would be better just to be consistent. The Left once saw that and condemned Rumsfeld on this board for shaking hands with Hussain.
Now, they're willing to shake hands with rogue states as long as they fight against Israel.

At least Canada has tried to do its part to censure what Turkey did.

Dangerous territory here.... think back just 60 years to WWII and the very cozy relations between certain prominent US families, banks and corporations and another country that ran amok ....
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #59 of 392
Funny how pointing out convenient alliances with evildoers suddenly becomes "dangerous territory" for discussion, once the target isn't Israel.

You don't seem concerned at all when you decry America's 'hardline pro-Israel anti-Muslim hate lobby' in posts here on AI.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #60 of 392
Even the Tory PM is on board-

"David Cameron described Israel's deadly assault on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla as "unacceptable" as Britain joined global calls for an inquiry into the incident which killed at least nine people. The PM also stressed the importance of urgently lifting the blockade of Gaza, and allowing full access for humanitarian aid."
~ http://www.24dash.com/news/central_g...otilla-assault

If Israel attacks any more Britons, the Brits won't just get mad, they'll get even-

"Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war."
~ http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #61 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Funny how pointing out convenient alliances with evildoers suddenly becomes "dangerous territory" for discussion, once the target isn't Israel.

You don't seem concerned at all when you decry America's 'hardline pro-Israel anti-Muslim hate lobby' in posts here on AI.

Evildoers

What does it actually mean? We know what it doesn't mean....killing Palestinians, blockading and starving territories and murdering people in international waters then lying about it..

Got that...still...makes you wonder what people like Frank think is. Being Muslim probably.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #62 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Evildoers

What does it actually mean? We know what it doesn't mean....killing Palestinians, blockading and starving territories and murdering people in international waters then lying about it..

Got that...still...makes you wonder what people like Frank think is. Being Muslim probably.

Evildoers also tend to do things like kill Kurds and Armenians, unexpectedly blow up ships with torpedos, roll over democracy with tanks, deny women and children education, enslave fellow citizens, kill opposing politicians, take over unfriendly newspapers and tv stations and more.

The Left just pretends not to notice. But let's all gang up on the Jews, who have no good reasons for wanting to protect themselves, and no psychological scars from past villainy that explains many of their actions.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #63 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

In other news - reports are coming on that King Herod has executed the first-born male sons throughout the kingdom in a savage and bloody massacre.

Details are sketchy but out correspondent on-the-ground-on-a-different-continent 2000 miles away from the incident said "this will change nothing - the anti-Herod cappuccino suckers will still peddle their hate - it seems clear to me that these babies threw themselves at the swords of the Herodian army in an evil and chilling co-ordinated unprovoked terrorist attack."

And now a word from our sponsors.....


Should have expected as much from you. An absurd analogy, followed by an insult pertaining to what part of the world I'm from. Almost anything I say at this point puts me in position to defend Israel, which I don't need or want to do. All I can say is that the facts appear to indicate the commandos were attacked. I'm not expressing an opinion as to whether the raid was appropriate or necessary, or even whether the commandos over-reacted. If someone can show evidence that they were not attacked, that's fine.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #64 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Evildoers also tend to do things like kill Kurds and Armenians, unexpectedly blow up ships with torpedos, roll over democracy with tanks, deny women and children education, enslave fellow citizens, kill opposing politicians, take over unfriendly newspapers and tv stations and more.

The Left just pretends not to notice. But let's all gang up on the Jews, who have no good reasons for wanting to protect themselves, and no psychological scars from past villainy that explains many of their actions.

How far back do you want to go then? Spanish Inquisition....oh wait...that was Holy...ok...we can discuss events of the beginning of last century alongside the atrocities of today

Is that REALLY what you think? People getting killed RIGHT NOW and all you can do is echo some playground chant like 'well what about them...they did so and so a hundred years ago.....'

Is it that you have no humanity or compassion for people killed today - or is it just that they deserve it in your eyes?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #65 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Should have expected as much from you. An absurd analogy, followed by an insult pertaining to what part of the world I'm from. Almost anything I say at this point puts me in position to defend Israel, which I don't need or want to do.

You've already done it. I'm wondering why...you don't seem to have the usual fundie-religious reasons.

Quote:
All I can say is that the facts appear to indicate the commandos were attacked. I'm not expressing an opinion as to whether the raid was appropriate or necessary, or even whether the commandos over-reacted. If someone can show evidence that they were not attacked, that's fine.

That's the point though isn't it? The 'facts' as presented by Israel. I'm not denying those 'facts' are presented.

I am more interested in the basis of how and why people accept 'facts'. The 'facts' showed certain things re Iran but you don't accept them because it is Iran publishing them. Fair enough....I don't want to get into that but use it as an example...you do the opposite with Israel.

I'm just wondering why.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #66 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

How far back do you want to go then? Spanish Inquisition....oh wait...that was Holy...ok...we can discuss events of the beginning of last century alongside the atrocities of today

Is that REALLY what you think? People getting killed RIGHT NOW and all you can do is echo some playground chant like 'well what about them...they did so and so a hundred years ago.....'

Is it that you have no humanity or compassion for people killed today - or is it just that they deserve it in your eyes?

There are plenty of people getting killed in the world RIGHT NOW. Many of the regimes responsible will never be attacked in a thread by the usual suspects here.

But nine people who went looking for a confrontation with the Israeli military died yesterday, and the Left starts to lecture about humanity and compassion. They have neither.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #67 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

There are plenty of people getting killed in the world RIGHT NOW. Many of the regimes responsible will never be attacked in a thread by the usual suspects here.

But nine people who went looking for a confrontation with the Israeli military died yesterday, and the Left starts to lecture about humanity and compassion. They have neither.

Maybe there's not time. Maybe it does not come up.

I can only speak for myself and I would never do what you and others of like-mind do here and that's defend the killers.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #68 of 392
One has to wonder why the commandos were equipped and willing to use deadly force to begin with.

Didn't French commandos manage to take over an entire cruiser without killing anybody and against fierce resistance?
post #69 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Maybe there's not time. Maybe it does not come up.

I can only speak for myself and I would never do what you and others of like-mind do here and that's defend the killers.

In my 5 posts in this thread, I've chastised Turkey for hypocrisy, and the Left doubly so for constantly picking on Israel while leaving other similar regimes untouched. Please show the post where I have defended the specific actions of soldiers who killed the nine protestors on the flotilla.

Otherwise, that just looks like a stupid personal attack.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #70 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

In my 5 posts in this thread, I've chastised Turkey for hypocrisy, and the Left doubly so for constantly picking on Israel while leaving other similar regimes untouched. Please show the post where I have defended the specific actions of soldiers who killed the nine protestors on the flotilla.

Otherwise, that just looks like a stupid personal attack.

Turks were attacked and killed.

Your response to justified outrage about it is to start castigating Turks for the Armenian Massacre.

That's all you need to know. For him who has ears to hear and all that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #71 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Turks were attacked and killed.

Your response to justified outrage about it is to start castigating Turks for the Armenian Massacre.

That's all you need to know. For him who has ears to hear and all that.

So pointing out blatant hypocrisy of the Turks means that I support killing protestors?

Like I said, cheap personal attack.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #72 of 392
And let's remember, my comments on the Armenian Massacre were prompted by the Turkish Government's response today (see the link), not the event itself.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #73 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

The analogy is not with the event but rather the level of belief required to sustain the "Israel right or wrong" mentality. Or should we say the "Israel: right" mentality.

I think SDW said it best himself:

Only half of his quote you apply though...

Quote:
You can understand that people who are anti-Israel are so BECAUSE of incidents like this - and there are a huge back-catalogue of them. No other reason.

What is not so understandable is the attitude - SDW's own attitude - that no matter what Israel does or how many people it kills:

People that are pro-Israel will remain so after this.

It's quite frightening. There really is NOTHING they could potentially do that would evoke censure.

Well, lets look at the other half of his statement that you loved so much:

People that are anti-Israel will remain so after this.

It is similarly easy to see which side you fall on here. Are all the facts out? I don't think so, it will be at least a couple weeks before they get the stories straight.
  • From what I can tell, a flotilla of ships told Israel, we are going to run your blockade.
  • Israel told them, well in advance and with no uncertain terms. No you will not.
  • They chose to run it anyway.
  • Israel stopped the ships before they entered Israeli waters in order to turn them around, and possibly to search for supplies other than humanitarian aid.
  • The aid workers and volunteers, who knew that they would be boarded by Israeli troops, attacked the troops before they had even landed on the ships and had a chance to do what they had intended to do, thereby setting the tone for the remainder of the conflict.

These are the facts that are known right now though video evidence. Until more facts are known this is what there is to comment on. When you have more facts, present them. Anything else is your bias showing.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #74 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

So pointing out blatant hypocrisy of the Turks means that I support killing protestors?

No-one said it meant you support killing protestors.

I said you do not wish to condemn Israel for anything they might do no matter what it is and you use the Turkey example as a means of avoiding doing so and keeping the 'moral high ground' in a situation where there is none.

Look at it the other way...pick an event that impacts someone in reverse say... 911 for example.

If someone's response to the atrocity is to sidestep it and start bringing up US atrocities in Vietnam then we'd know where we stand.

Like we do now.

Quote:
Like I said, cheap personal attack.

If I personally attack you Frank you'll feel very different. And I don't do cheap.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #75 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Evildoers also tend to do things like kill Kurds and Armenians,

Kurds... killed by Saddam Hussein, with US tact approval

Quote:
unexpectedly blow up ships with torpedos

The torpedo that sank the S. Korean navy ship was of German manufacture. Germany does not supply torpedos to NK, so there's some questions that need to be answered re. what channels did NK use to obtain modern European weapons? I am the last person on this earth to volunteer support for the NK odious NK regime... and setting them up in the eyes of the international community would be in the interest of all. Even though KJI is a "piece of work", he is not stupid. The people of NK (and the rest of the world) needs the NK regime like a hole in the head.

Quote:
roll over democracy with tanks,

The pot and the kettle... there's a lengthy list of nations with elected democracies which have been overthrown by the US, to install dictators and thugs.

Quote:
deny women and children education, enslave fellow citizens, kill opposing politicians, take over unfriendly newspapers and tv stations and mo

sounds depressingly familiar..
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #76 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

People that are anti-Israel will remain so after this.

More people should be anti-Israel.

The argument is really not whether anyone actually is but whether they actually should be. Many States need opposing. I contend Israel is one of them.

What I don't understand is why their actions - which would be enough to cause opposition were they committed by anyone else - are defended by some. Or actually I do understand it in many cases.

Quote:
It is similarly easy to see which side you fall on here.

Yep. Proud of it too. Proud to oppose all such brutal regimes: Israel, Zimbabwe, China, Saudi...no probs there.

Quote:
Are all the facts out? I don't think so, it will be at least a couple weeks before they get the stories straight.

Again...that's exactly the point - Israel is in control of the facts so no...the facts are not out. My point exactly.

Quote:
From what I can tell, a flotilla of ships told Israel, we are going to run your blockade.

Yes. very good thing. Good there are humanitarians not prepared to sit back and watch Israel starving a whole people into non-existence.

Quote:
Israel told them, well in advance and with no uncertain terms. No you will not.

Of course. What else would they do? Say "oops sorry we've been very naughty"? If they were capable of that they would not commit the crimes in the first place and the flotilla would not be necessary.

Quote:
They chose to run it anyway.

Knowing that brutal death might await them and the world would look away. Heroes.

Quote:
Israel stopped the ships before they entered Israeli waters in order to turn them around, and possibly to search for supplies other than humanitarian aid.

Right. Commandos abseiling in at 4am tooled up and screaming and firing. Right.

Also out of their own waters it is a crime.

Quote:
The aid workers and volunteers, who knew that they would be boarded by Israeli troops, attacked the troops before they had even landed on the ships and had a chance to do what they had intended to do, thereby setting the tone for the remainder of the conflict.

Right. A load of peaceniks and - what do you call them? Surrender-monkeys? Decide to take on the IDF with some planks of wood. Right.

Quote:
These are the facts that are known right now though video evidence.

Not so. These are the facts as known solely from Israeli sources.

Quote:
Until more facts are known this is what there is to comment on. When you have more facts, present them. Anything else is your bias showing.

We have been commenting on them. And I have confessed my bias...which is how I also recognize yours btw....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #77 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

More people should be anti-Israel.

The argument is really not whether anyone actually is but whether they actually should be. Many States need opposing. I contend Israel is one of them.

What I don't understand is why their actions - which would be enough to cause opposition were they committed by anyone else - are defended by some. Or actually I do understand it in many cases.



Yep. Proud of it too. Proud to oppose all such brutal regimes: Israel, Zimbabwe, China, Saudi...no probs there.



Again...that's exactly the point - Israel is in control of the facts so no...the facts are not out. My point exactly.



Yes. very good thing. Good there are humanitarians not prepared to sit back and watch Israel starving a whole people into non-existence.



Of course. What else would they do? Say "oops sorry we've been very naughty"? If they were capable of that they would not commit the crimes in the first place and the flotilla would not be necessary.



Knowing that brutal death might await them and the world would look away. Heroes.



Right. Commandos abseiling in at 4am tooled up and screaming and firing. Right.

Also out of their own waters it is a crime.



Right. A load of peaceniks and - what do you call them? Surrender-monkeys? Decide to take on the IDF with some planks of wood. Right.



Not so. These are the facts as known solely from Israeli sources.



We have been commenting on them. And I have confessed my bias...which is how I also recognize yours btw....

I am biased to facts at this point. You are making up facts in the absence of evidence you can accept. All the rest you have posted speaks for itself and needs no comment. Either the facts available support your comments or refute them.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #78 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I am biased to facts at this point. You are making up facts in the absence of evidence you can accept.

I think it would be helpful if you'd say specifically which facts he's "making up."

Then we can really tell.
post #79 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I think it would be helpful if you'd say specifically which facts he's "making up."

Then we can really tell.

Anything not presented in the facts that are available currently is made up or embellished.

For example:

Quote:
Commandos abseiling in at 4am tooled up and screaming and firing.

They did not come in screaming and firing, that occurred after they took some initial beatings and stabbings and a pistol was fired at them. Those are the facts as presented so far.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #80 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Anything not presented in the facts that are available currently is made up or embellished.

They did not come in screaming and firing, that occurred after they took some initial beatings and stabbings and a pistol was fired at them. Those are the facts as presented so far.

Quote:
Norman Paech, a former member of Germany's Left Party, was aboard the Mavi Marmara, the largest of the six ships in the convoy.

Speaking at a news conference in Berlin, he said the ship was surrounded by small Israeli assault boats on Monday morning at about 0430 local time.

"Moments later, we heard detonations and then soldiers from helicopters above us dropped down on board.

"The soldiers were all masked, carrying big guns and were extremely brutal."

Quote:
Activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, was among six Greeks who returned home on Tuesday.

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," he said.

"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

Mr Gielalis said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye.

Quote:
Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard the Free Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

"The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting.

Mr Papadokostopoulos said that aboard the other boats, commandos beat activists but nobody was gravely injured. He said no one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid.

"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10206802.stm
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Humanitarian aid flotilla attacked....