Humanitarian aid flotilla attacked.... - Page 3

So I defended it yet I didn't support it? What you think I am, a Liberal?

According to eyewitnesses, you are incorrect.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10206802.stm




OK. So that's one "made up" fact which we've sourced.

Do you have another?

No, you have accounts of firing and fighting, however the timeline has not been established in any of the accounts. This does not change the facts as presented.

Israel Armchair Defence Force Procedural Handbook

When an 'incident' occurs adhere to the following procedure:

1. If evidence has been successfully repressed leverage this and claim 'we do not know facts'
2. If evidence has unfortunately leaked to public domain deny incident has occurred
3. If evidence is conclusive start a loud noise about something totally unrelated
4. If incident is of sufficient gravity deny it ever happened
5. Failing all else play Anti-Semite card (optional possibility of 'Tin Hat' procedure
6. Run Away

The accounts say that they did, indeed, turn up at 4 AM, and they did indeed fire. All account agree that they were very aggressive from the get go. Some accounts even insist that the protestors fought in self defence.

I believe the facts are sourced. You don't.

So, OK, we won't agree.

But do you have another example of another fact Segovius "made up"?

Have fun with that...

Show me a timeline other than this happened at or around 4 am? That is a timeframe, not a timeline.

Timeline would be:

Showed up
Started shouting threats
Fired on boats
Helicopters came over and dropped commandos
commandos were attacked by activists
mass fighting ensued


You see, one follows the other.

None of your accounts posted have laid it out even close to this. Some even go so far as to say they have no idea what the others were doing. The Explosions may or may not have been the Israeli forces as there is VIDEO evidence that the activists threw bombs at the landing forces. As more of these first hand reports are interviewed there will be a larger picture, but that will obviously take time. I am sure that there will be attempts on both sides to sensationalize the issue, even here while I am calling for actual facts to be presented I get called a blind supporter. Sorry if I am looking for more than verbal accounts with little supporting data.

More evidence is coming out. However, part of the facts here are absolutely false, unless you consider bombs, knives, and clubs unarmed. The other video evidence out there shows this quite clearly. I know, if they have guns then clubs don't count, nor do knives... Right? Stick to the facts.

That video keeps cutting from one view to another, it has been edited by simple definition. Where is the single uncut view of each piece like what Israel has released?

As for evidence of weapons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM

And yes, this video cuts from scene to scene as well, but timeline is not important here. Some of the weapons are what would be considered tools for ship maintenance and repair, some are weapons, pure and simple.

Video evidence that the activists threw bombs.

Let's see it then.

You're stretching now....it's embarrassing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzYno...layer_embedded

Infolive.tv:


http://www.israelnewsagency.com/idfp...v48051107.html

No bombs either.

Because he toes the Republican line. Every time. Without fail. And the Republicans defend Israel no matter what their government does and they show a complete hatred of Palestinians and Muslims. Every time. Without fail.

2007?

So now they were armed, and rightfully so?

The most irritating thing about this is that the timelines not relevant.

Whatever the elite commandoes of Flotilla 13 of the Israel Navy met on that boat, their response was absolutely disproportionate. They went in aggressively and they killed ten people. The people they killed had no guns.

Most of the disgust throughout the world is provoked by the disporportiate nature of the Israeli violence. Whatever the order of events, it doesnt change this fact.

It's very difficult to engage in respectful and honest debate with someone who writes this kind of provocative, ideological ad hominem nonsense.

This is the main point actually - it has nothing to with any political agenda, any respective partisan position, the simple point is this:

All countries are called to obey the rule of law and if they don't they are deemed to be held responsible.

All countries. Regardless of who they are.

Except one country appears to be exempt.... both in terms of their own attitude towards the rule of law and the consequences when they flout it.

And then there are those - not of that country or any apparent allegiance - who are fanatically dedicated to facilitating and defending this situation.

That is the problem right there.

You touched on an important point - vital to recognize that Gaza flotilla participants PLANNED to attack Israel; wanted to martyr themselves for jihad - that point goes far to show the guilty flotilla participants. This is not the first time fanatical Muslim jihad has been a root cause of terrorism...

Except most were not Muslims - the vast majority were secular activists who I am fairly sure have little interest in martyrdom.

Actually I think this applies also to the Muslims that would have been on the flotilla. For a start the doctrine of martyrdom in relation to jihad requires an adherence to a specific doctrine that is only held by a small schismatic section of Islam....most Muslims would not agree that having a ruck on an aid ship would count.

Those that do believe it would count would probably find it easier to strap on a suicide belt. As indeed they do.

The biggest problem with the Israeli response was its naivety. Somebody in command obviously thought they were going up against a run-of-the-mill protest and sent some of the world's best commandos into battle with paint guns. Brilliant. Once the situation escalated, it got out of hand really quick.

Memo to the geniuses who planned the boarding: You know all too well the damage that can be caused by club wielding, stone throwing mobs. Paint guns are not up to the task of protecting anyone.

Don't plan military efforts based on what looks good on the news.

That's the point though isn't it? The 'facts' as presented by Israel. I'm not denying those 'facts' are presented.[/quote]

Look...I'm just saying it appears the commandos that boarded the ships were attacked. Do you disagree with this? If you do, you're saying that the IDF manufactured these videos. Is that what you're saying?

Notice I haven't addressed the blockade itself, or even the wisdom of boarding the ship in this fashion. What I do take issue with is you comparing the raid to some kind of slaughter of the unarmed and innocent. You know that is simply not the case.


The FACTS now show that I and others have been right on Iran. The IAEA (long known to be in the tank for the Bush Administration ) just reported that Iran has enough nuclear material for two nuclear bombs. More "made up facts" I guess.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7142176.ece

Ok, so you were wrong on the timeline and have changed your argument. Congratulations. You also ignore the fact that the aid workers on the boat purposely, and rather idiotically attacked armed commandos as they boarded a ship. They saw that they were armed. They knew they were military. They attacked them with clubs, knives, and improvised explosives. One or two either had guns with them or took a gun off of a landing troop. Didi it escalate, yes. And people died. The more I read about this the angrier I get at the organizers of the flotilla. They were offered the choice to land in Israel and have their aid moved overland to Gaza. They decided to ignore the offer and throw themselves at the military.

For what gain?

The timeline is important as it undermines your argument and sego's argument. Until it is no longer convenient. Then you switch to another point while ignoring the big picture. This did not have to happen with this flotilla. There was another way. Israel made stupid decisions and the organizers of the flotilla also made stupid decisions. The flotilla people were in over their heads and have the deaths of those on the ships as their responsibility. But it is so easy to blame Israel and ignore that the other side threw themselves in harms way. And for apparently no good reason as they could have gotten the aid through with no fighting.

I am saying that some thugs illegally boarded a ship and started attacking people and these people rightfully fought back.

Then the thugs killed them.


Blockade is another illegal and immoral action by the same rogue state. Slaughter I don't know...what's a word? The same old killers have killed again and people are supporting them. Call it what you will.


I think you forfeited the right to use the word 'facts' way back at the Iraq dossier.

I know one fact (no apostrophe): Iran is scheduled for neutralization one way or another and it will happen. And when it does it will involve many Iranians dying and you will be supporting it. Or excusing it. Whatever it takes to retain 'credibility'.

And amid the carnage the dead will not matter. Much like these dead activists don't matter now.


Not illegal boarding. Not killing civilians. Not the support of the killing and the subsequent justifications.

The only problem: naivete.

A rare glimpse into the chilling mindset behind all the talk and excuses for murder.

Says who? I doubt they're Christians and they certainly are not Israeli and your assertion that they were largely "secular activists" does not square with the behavior observed. Thus my point stands unless you can point me toward something substantial certifying the flotilla protestors identity.

First, they were not "thugs." They were uniformed military personnel. They boarded a ship that was trying to run a blockade, and had refused inspection.


You're determined to draw me into the blockade argument, aren't you? You are welcome to your opinion. It doesn't change the fact that the commandos were attacked.


That's ridiculous. Being wrong about one thing does not mean one is wrong about all future things.


You don't know that. It's an opinion. By the way, neutralization by whom? And I'll support it only if I feel it's justified.


They clearly matter. Don't be silly.


1. Show it was "illegal."
2. Show they were merely civilians.


Murder? So Israel runs around and commits murder. Let me ask...why?

Oh, what crap.

'The timeline' was irrelevant from the beginning. It was never the focus of my argument, it was the focus of yours, and I haven't "changed my argument" because I never addressed it in the first place. No timeline changes the fact that the Israeli military violence was disproportionate.

And please prove there were "knives" and "explosives". Please.

From a source that has nothing to do with the Israeli military. If eyewitness accounts from the activists' perspective doesn't count then sources from the Israeli army don't count either.

So. Go on. Knives and explosives. Proof, please.

There's nothing really new here, the material is common knowledge, thus why Iran has said it will ship it out the country. What exactly do you think you've been proved right about?

Does that right extend to the Israelis?

That they've been developing a bomb. Come on, man. You take Iran at its word here? They've not lived up to any other promises. Why start now?

By the way, it occurs to me that Sego and Sammi would have attacked ANY post by Noah, Mumbo or myself. It really doesn't matter what we post. I could have launched a scathing attack on Israel for the raid, and I'd still be told that I blindly support a regime of murderous thugs.

This is because of a world view that questions Israel's very right to exist, not just its actions. Sego, you've stated that very view in the past. Any comment you make must be taken with the knowledge that if given the choice, you'd like to have Israel pushed into the sea. This is also why peace in that region of the world may be impossible. Israel has made plenty of mistakes. I don't agree with many of their past actions. Certainly, the humanitarian situation in Gaza cannot be ignored.

That said, what if the roles were reversed? Has Israel questioned, say, Iran's right to exist? Egypt's? Turkey's? Somehow I think Sego's (and the like minded) tune would change.

The more I look into this the more your point lacks evidence; first, video evidence for "Flotilla Passengers Fire Live Ammunition at IDF Soldiers," that has been independently corroborated, and second, video evidence for "Mavi Marmara Passengers Attack IDF Before Soldiers Board Ship," (hardly the act of secular activists)!

Which promises?

Oh...and let's not forget our Holy Mantra. Let's take a moment and say it all together:

Ahmedinejad has claimed he wants to wipe Israel off the map.


Why do you doubt? I think you're perspective is luckily not the benchmark of reality. It is very likely many were both.

Unfortunately you clearly display your lack of knowledge of both the issue and the area as it happens that Palestine and Gaza and have thousands of Christian organizations which are unanimously in favour of lifting the blockade and are protesting the Israeli actions.


Palestinian Christians urge protests after Israeli assault on flotilla

As to Israelis...again you are wrong. There are very many Israeli Human Rights organizations active in bringing Israel's crimes to light - you won't hear of them of course in your sources. B'TSelem is one such.

Anyway... here is a partial list - I summarize for you:

Famous author Henning Mankell and Nobel peace laureate Mairead Corrigan-Maguire - neither of them Muslims.

Caoimhe Butterly - Irish. Christian. You may remember the Israelis tried to murder her before in 2002 by an unprovoked shooting.

Three German MPs, Annette Groth, a human rights policy spokeswoman, Inge Höger, a member of the defence and health committees, and Norman Paech, who is also a professor of public law in Hamburg - none Muslim.

David Schermerhorn, 80, an American film producer whose work includes City of Ghosts. Jewish.

Luckily, another 85 year old decided not to go at the last minute... Jewish and Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein.


Giorgos Klontzas, a Greek professional diver and sailor,. Christian.

Palestinian activist Lubna Masarwa. Christian.

Ewa Jasiewicz, a Polish activist. Polish.

Edward L. Peck - US Diplomat. Christian.

And on and on.....

I don't question Israel's right to exist. I question it's right to exist in that place at the expense of the previous population and I question the motivations of the British role in the setting up of the State. I also question the means and methods by which Israel maintains itself.

I think you'll find that a different thing.

I also think you'll find that I am not alone in that and many Jews 'question Israel's right to exist'.

But to address your point more fully (and you are wrong btw in assuming I would attack you if you had voiced different opinions - Noah and Camp David as they are more sinister maybe but not you as you are imo a rational thinking man) if the US were to say, reach an accommodation with Iran which involved retaking Iraq (which as you know was originally Persia and united with the area now known as Iran) and facilitated this displacing the Iraqis then I would question 'Iran's' right to exist or whatever name they gave it.

I think that's reasonable.

You'll just keep floating the bait until someone bites. But it won't be me. If you honestly believe Iran's leaders are trustworthy and can be taken at their word, then there isn't much left to discuss on the matter. But I think you know exactly how bad President A. is. I think it's just that you're blinded by hatred of the Israelis and to a lesser extent, the US government.

Wow, I am sinister! That is a new one on me. I will have to write that down in my evil plan diary.

I just cannot take you seriously anymore... Sorry!

Chiefly because you failed to provide any evidence whatsoever for your earlier assertion that the flotilla activists were "secular activists." Do you plan to post any evidence or you plan to stay with your wrong assumption?


My perspective is based on several AP, UPI, and BBC news reports; i.e., the most documented "reality" available that is not based on your wrong assumption.


Thousands huh? Name one and cite it with a link to something more than your wrong assumption.


Terror entities Hamas and Hezbollah and their proven crimes aside, we need not ascribe fictional Israeli crimes, or allegations of such, with the same gravitas.