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saudi proposal- and their support of Iraq

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
Saudi Arabia supports Iraq: what does that tell us about their priorities in relation to Israel and to the common muslim citizen?

And what about their proposal: I think they are asking for the moon, it would be utter folly to allow Jerusalem to be the Palastinian capital. The Israelis need to give up the settlements but they really do need a buffer zone;

anyway this thread should be about Saudi Arabia:

i think there stance shows us that the first thing we need to do is stop the flow of cash there way by developing alternative fuels, because clearly they are showing that Osama Bin Laden's plan of uniting Islam is setting into the minds of the Muslim leaders: they seem to feel a need to bond around superficial similarities, in the face of the US as the Other, different people, and will even embrace overt madness (Saddam) merely to make that stance obviouse.

We need to stop the money flow their way!!

anybody have any thoughts about this new news.
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post #2 of 31
Saudi Arabia supports Iraq: what does that tell us about their priorities in relation to Israel and to the common muslim citizen?

It tells me they will support any government no matter how evil they may be as long as it's based on Islam.

And what about their proposal: I think they are asking for the moon, it would be utter folly to allow Jerusalem to be the Palastinian capital. The Israelis need to give up the settlements but they really do need a buffer zone;

The last thing that they need is to split up Jerusalem like they did with Berlin. A buffer zone like the star trek 'neutral zone' is a good idea, but will it be a economic buffer zone too?

i think there stance shows us that the first thing we need to do is stop the flow of cash there way by developing alternative fuels,

Exactly. The less interests we have in that area the better.

because clearly they are showing that Osama Bin Laden's plan of uniting Islam is setting into the minds of the Muslim leaders: they seem to feel a need to bond around superficial similarities, in the face of the US as the Other, different people, and will even embrace overt madness (Saddam) merely to make that stance obviouse.

True.

We need to stop the money flow their way!!
post #3 of 31
hey OBL is not the "man of month" on the Beirut Summit. OBL is against the whole Saudi peace proposal (If his latest e-mail is for real), and strongly against the whole Saudi government. He is a renagade in the middle-east as well... There is no concrete prof (yet) that Sadam supports him either.

What Iraq is despeatly trying now is to avoid millitary intervention. They have the right to do that, haven't they? If they start to clean up their act, why not? It's not like they if you replace Saddam your gonna get a nice democracy the next day. The regoin is certainly not gonna benefit from yet another war. And the Israeli/palestinian conflict will most likely get worse as a result of an american attack on Iraq.
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post #4 of 31
We can only hope that Sadam is not completely mad and does start cleaning up. I would like to see some diplomatic relations between the US and Iraq, and if Iraq starts cleaning up that mess and lets in UN inspectors then the US will lift sanctions as a gesture of good will. But I don't see this happening any time soon.
post #5 of 31
Thread Starter 
THe best way for them to "clean up their act" is to oust Saddam, or next best (since tat will not happen) to allow inspectors free reign in their country that was defeated in the Gulf War and should have been taken over.

I think a war with Iraq would be a mistake, but support for them from the audi's says that they are supporting Saddam allowing 200,000 civilians to starve just so he can continue to be the megolomaniac that he is while nominally being a "Muslim"

AS for OBL, I'm not saying that he is 'persona grata' among the Muslim states, no, he doesn't have to be for his plan to take hold.... namely the bonding of different people's and countries under the superficialities of "Islam" AGAINST the percieved Other of the west. It seems that it may be working and all the countries will come to see themselves as one super-organism versus another, rather than a collection of different countries with really different ideas and cultures.
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--George W Bush

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--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #6 of 31
OBL isn't the originator of the idea of "arabic unity"... Check out "Lawrence of Arabia", it's both a great movie and a good history lesson.

About Jerusalem: Tel Aviv was the Israeli capital last time I checked. The Palestinians has as much right to jerusalem as Israel. A lot of the Palestinian cultural and economic elite resides there. (Israel has confiscated several valueble properties in Jerusalem)...
in 1948 Jerusalem was supposed to be a "open city" governed by its inhabitants under the supervision of the UN...

About the buffer zone: If Israel wants a buffer zone they can easily build one. What they have no right to do is built it on palestinian territory, like they did in south lebanon... That would be like saying occupation is ok. This is the argument Sharon and the ministers before him have always used. "We need to occupy to be secure", While the truth is that the most secure year ever since 1967 (or maybe even erlier) was when the Oslo agreement was young, and the occupation was at it's most reduced. (In this period the settlements where expanded with over 50.000 settlers, a clear breach of the Oslo-agreement)...

[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #7 of 31
Thread Starter 
Having Jurusalem a major Pallastinian city would not be a buffer zone... and realistically asking for Jerusalem is like asking Muslims for Mecca.
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--George W Bush

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--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #8 of 31
Jerusalem would still be on the border, check the map. So if you want to make it an all israeli city with a buffer zone, you would acctually HAVE to occupy some of the west bank...

and BTW, Mecca has no sacred Jewish or Cristian sites of worship... Jerusalem has a long tradition as more than a jewish holy city, you know, there are a couple of not too minor mosques and curches there...
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post #9 of 31
Look at the original post WWII proposal for the 'Jewish Homeland'. It shows the Israeli land, the Palestinian land, and an area around Jerusalem, including the city, as 'International Territory'- a city for everyone.

After the war in 1948 after Israel declared independence, they got control of most of Jerusalem. That's the way it's been ever since.

I like the original UN idea best of all- an international city. Of course, it will never happen.
post #10 of 31
e0;
post #11 of 31
I still agree with Fran... The City of Jerusalem is important and holy to jews, christans and muslims... If anywhere should be an "international area" governed by the UN this is the place... They should move the UN headquarters there as well, finally making it "accessable" to the whole world, in the place where east, west, north and south meets...

wow, that's one crazy dream, right?
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post #12 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
About Jerusalem: Tel Aviv was the Israeli capital last time I checked. The Palestinians has as much right to jerusalem as Israel.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Uh, Jerusalem is the capitol. Tel Aviv may be a larger city, but not the capital. I even double checked Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs to make sure.

Since Jerusalem is the capitol of the Jewish state, your argument therefore does not make sense.

For it to be an international city, that's crazy. But letting East Jerusalem be the capitol of a possible Palestinian state, perhaps, but it really does not look like that will happen.
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post #13 of 31
From Encarta:
[quote]Israel captured mostly Arab East Jerusalem in 1967. Israel has since claimed the entire city as its capital. However, the United Nations does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital.<hr></blockquote>

From the CIA World Factbook:
[quote]CapitaltJerusalem; note - Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950, but the US, like nearly all other countries, maintains its Embassy in Tel Aviv .<hr></blockquote>

So, we're both partially right...
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post #14 of 31
Anyway, how can we fully trust a country that lets things like this happen:
<a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-000021569mar25.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment%2Dop inions" target="_blank">http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-000021569mar25.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment%2Dop inions</a>

It shows they care more about the letter of the law (or in this case religious law) than preserving lives.
post #15 of 31
I'm not saying we should trust the Saudi's. Its a rotten regime. But I think that working for a more stable region is the best way to give democratic forces better conditions to work under... There's nothing like a war to put all critical voices to silence...
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post #16 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
So, we're both partially right... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I'm right, and your partially right.

Jerusalem is the capitol of the Jewish homeland, and whether or not some countries choose not to recognize that, that's their business, but Jerusalem is still the capitol.

That is also where the gov't is located, and isn't the city (or cities in the case of South Africa) where the gov't is located the capitol?

Anyway, to Saudi Arabia. Outsider, that was an interesting article.

As long as the Bush/Cheney families/friends depend on oil for their wealth I somehow doubt there will be much pressure on the Saudi royal family to improve the rights of women. It'll probably happen on its own in Saudi Arabia, but it'll take a while.

It wasn't that long ago in the Western world that women couldn't vote, work (or just hold menial jobs) or do anything without the concent of a male.

It's only been in the 20th century that this has change here.
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post #17 of 31
[quote]Well, I'm right, and your partially right.

Jerusalem is the capitol of the Jewish homeland, and whether or not some countries choose not to recognize that, that's their business, but Jerusalem is still the capitol.

That is also where the gov't is located, and isn't the city (or cities in the case of South Africa) where the gov't is located the capitol?<hr></blockquote>

Ok, so the palestinean capitol is currently a windowless room with no water and electricity...

Your observations on the rights of women is very true, we still can't say that the job is finshed, (just look at the abortion law purposal in Ireland)...
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post #18 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>

Ok, so the palestinean capitol is currently a windowless room with no water and electricity...

Your observations on the rights of women is very true, we still can't say that the job is finshed, (just look at the abortion law purposal in Ireland)...</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you're refering to Arafat's 2 room office he's trapped in, then yeah, you could say that. But that's all his fault. If he had cracked down on terror then he wouldn't not be a prisoner.

But Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel, and if there was to be a Palestinian state, then East Jerusalem would be its capitol.

And yes, there is still more to be done for the rights of women in the west as well.

I did find it somewhat ironic when Bush was talking about the need for a multi-ethnic government with women on it, he was talking about Afganistan, I thought he might've been talking about the USA.

Well, they do have Collin Powell and Condelezza Rice (just an advisor) and maybe another woman.

Anyway, we can't expect the Islamic world to necessarily view women the same way we do here. In their culture, they probably feel we exploit our women and that their only real purpose is to wear as little as possible, and if their lucky pose in Playboy, and basically spend their lives trying to make men want to sleep them.

But at least the women here can go to work and school. Maybe in 50-100 years things will be different in the Islamic world, but it's really not our place to tell them what their culture should be like. If we don't like it we can just decide not to trade with them (ie not buy their oil).

But would the US gov't stop buying oil from Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries? Not a chance.

[ 03-30-2002: Message edited by: MacsKickAss ]</p>
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post #19 of 31
[quote]But Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel, and if there was to be a Palestinian state, then East Jerusalem would be its capitol.<hr></blockquote>

This is how it should be...

[quote]I did find it somewhat ironic when Bush was talking about the need for a multi-ethnic government with women on it, he was talking about Afganistan, I thought he might've been talking about the USA.<hr></blockquote>

LOL <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[quote]But at least the women here can go to work and school. Maybe in 50-100 years things will be different in the Islamic world, but it's really not our place to tell them what their culture should be like.<hr></blockquote>

Hopefully less than that...
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post #20 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>
And what about their proposal: I think they are asking for the moon, it would be utter folly to allow Jerusalem to be the Palastinian capital. The Israelis need to give up the settlements but they really do need a buffer zone;

i think there stance shows us that the first thing we need to do is stop the flow of cash there way by developing alternative fuels, because clearly they are showing that Osama Bin Laden's plan of uniting Islam is setting into the minds of the Muslim leaders: they seem to feel a need to bond around superficial similarities, in the face of the US as the Other, different people, and will even embrace overt madness (Saddam) merely to make that stance obviouse.

We need to stop the money flow their way!!

anybody have any thoughts about this new news.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think Jerusalem could be shared as a capital with no problem, but I think that there will never be land traded for "peace." There can't be -- due to incrementalism.

And it's insane to think (on the Saudi's part) that this would be taken seriously.

I agree that we need to change our stance regarding Saudi Arabia, but I'm not sure that we'll be able to develop alternative fuels to do so. We should probably open up drilling in new domestic areas ASAP, though. That might work within a couple of years, or at least it has the chance to.

The other thing that we need to do is withdraw our troops from The Kingdom ASAP. As a show of respect for the S.A. "culture." Let S.A. deal with Iraq without such a big shadow. In other words, if they're going to talk the talk, we need to make them walk the walk.
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post #21 of 31
???... I don't get anything of what your saying...
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post #22 of 31
He's saying the less interest an 'Imperialistic' country like the US has in that part of the world the less people will hate this part of the world. This of course means Israel fighting their own battles when we withdraw completely from that area but they have the man-power.

At least that's what I got out of it.

Also means that in about 5 years the whole place would have destabilized and it would look nothing likewhat we have today. They may even wish for the good ole days when Americans were around to defend them. Or maybe there won't be anyone left there due to radioactivity. Hmmm.
post #23 of 31
This is what I know. Correct me if I'm wrong:

The UN Partition Plan came after the revocation of the British Mandate Palestine. The UN Partition Plan was put into place but Palestinians wanted it all and attacked Israel. Israel, of course, fought back and won, they took a bit of Palestinian land, but not all of it.

Jordan and Egypt actually took a lot of Palestinian land as well.

It seems almost like a ploy. The Egyptians and Jordanians seized an opportunity to send troops under the flag of Palestine to fight Israel...with no intention of winning...only the intention of picking up scraps of land Israel decided not to take.

From what I can tell, nobody really cared so much about Palestine, not even the Arab states around it. They used the Palestinians like everybody else. It's unfortunate the Palestinians didn't have the foresight not to allow outside forces to attack Israel under its 'flag.'

This was around the 1950s...
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post #24 of 31
I think the war that followed 1948, was tragic but quite natural... The arab states, many quite young, felt the creation of Israel as a new colonial occupation... There is nothing that indicates that they didn't want to "win back" all of the land. We are no longer talking about these borders... It is the borders from 67 that we are concerned with now...

It is quite true that the arab states have not always acted in the palestinian "best interest", the arab people are quite diverse, have many different "ethnic" groups and a long tradition of fighting amogst themselves...

We can go over history a hundred times more, but to what use? It is now time to let what happend before, all the wars that have been fought, be labeled "history".
It is time to start discussing the future. How to end the conflict. With the Arab Summits offer to finally reconize Israel as a nation, the prospect for a lasting peace should be better than ever.
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post #25 of 31
Frankly, I think the region will erupt into formal war. As for stability in the region...not for decades or centuries in my opinion.
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post #26 of 31
I'm not disagreeing with you... I'm just saying that the conditions fore a peace (at least on the paper) are there. And that the only way to get there is by looking forward...

Personally I think its time for an international intervention...
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post #27 of 31
Personally I think its time for an international intervention...

I don't think it's time for that. Who would you intervene on behalf of? The Israelis or the Arabs? I know some nations will interven on the behalf of Israel and other , otherwise allies, will take the side of the Arabs. For example, I know the US would take sides with Israel. But most of the European Allies would side with the arabs. How will this affect US-Euro relations? It's better if we just butt out or at least not formally intervene.
post #28 of 31
An intervention for both parties of course. The parties have clearly shown that they are not capable of solving their differences by themselves. Like The Foreign minister of Baraks government stated on BBC today...
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post #29 of 31
The UN and US intervened in Lebanon (and Somalia, the Balkans, etc.)... and they became the targets. Bad idea.

It's simply clear that neither side's leaders want to stop fighting at all. They just wave a white flag to draw out the other side and start all over again.
post #30 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>
It tells me they will support any government no matter how evil they may be as long as it's based on Islam.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not even that. Iraq's government isn't based on Islam. It's secular. (Although he has made some gestures towards the Islamic fundamentalists in recent years.) Hussein is just a fellow Muslim, that's all. Which is apparently a sufficient qualification for Saudi Arabia.
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post #31 of 31
I'd like to know who REALLY is running the show over there.
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